wild mary posted:Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4? I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.
Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.
John you've talked about a March meet. Where's about would that be and the dates please.
Its very annoying that lots of vendors pack up early on Saturday for people like me who can only attend on Saturdays. However, often there are other vendors who don't pack up so I can spend my money there. Their loss if they lose my business.
Andrew DeSabatino posted:wild mary posted:Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4? I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.
Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.
For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday? The vendors will follow the money. It's a win-win situation.
wild mary posted:Andrew DeSabatino posted:wild mary posted:Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4? I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.
Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.
For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday? The vendors will follow the money. It's a win-win situation.
One has to remember that York is more than just the actual Eastern Division sponsored meet. It coincides with a whole week of bandit meets, open houses, and social gatherings in the days prior, which are attended by both dealers and TCA members. There are people that have taken off a whole week to attend all of this. By the time Saturday roles around, most people have already had their fun and since the halls are usually dead, many vendors don't see a point in leaving a table or booth up for a few hours and figure they'll get a head start on the long ride home so they can get back to work on Monday. Having the meet on Sunday with all of the other stuff that goes on prior would mean vendors and dealers coming from long distances would have to take off Monday as well to get home, which most people don't want to do. Perhaps if York was only just the three day ED sponsored meet and nothing else, having it on a Saturday and Sunday would work more.
For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday? The vendors will follow the money. It's a win-win situation.
Couldn't that be turned around to say: "Why don't the attendees take off from work on Thursday and Friday to attend?
Dmaxdeere87 posted:I don' care about vendors packing up early on Saturdays, these people have been there 3 days and some all week if set up at bandit meets also, the ones that make me mad are when show opens Thursday or Friday and 1-2 hours in, their tables are still covered. This year was bad for that
The show is open until three on Saturday.... If a vendor chooses to sell at the show, then staying OPEN until 3pm Saturday is part of the commitment. And, to reiterate, my comments are directed mainly toward the larger dealers and sellers in Orange and Purple. I don't really pay attention to what the private guys are doing in the other halls.
When I was doing shows I always felt an obligation to stay until the end--in my view it was keeping my end of the bargain to the show sponsors who set up the opportunity for me to sell product and promote the hobby.
Jeff C
And you think it's bad here, try O scale shows where at a 9-3 show- if the "Big Vendors" DON'T make their $$, they pack up at noon!
And that just KILLS the show.
Is it better to have a vendor not participate or leave early on Saturday?
Most of the show occurs on Thursday and Friday.
Those that remain late Saturday are most likely ready to deal.
Shall we create some sort of a "Pit of Misery" for those who leave early.... Dilly Dilly !!!
Is it better to have a vendor not participate or leave early on Saturday?
Remember to consider that there is no shortage of tables or vendor space at the show. And there hasn't been in years. When there was unsatisfied demand for more space, eliminating those who wouldn't or couldn't stay to the end made sense. Times have changed.
My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.
Allan Miller posted:My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.
I agree Allan. Perhaps TCA could try a schedule in April focused for members (collectors) only. October would be focused for retailers, manufacturers and any member (collector) that wants to participate. This may reduce number of buildings used reducing total cost for TCA. Tough decisions ahead for all involved. As it is right now I can see that it must be a strain on retailers and manufacturers and certainly understand why they want to pack up early and get home where the money is made.
Speaking only from my very limited personal perspective as a small vendor of personally crafted dioramas, the TCA Meet was, for me, a way of finding out if my work would be accepted, demonstrated by hobbyists taking my work home with them, as well as hoping to become a "recognized brand," as Jim Elster referred to my work on the occasion of one of his visits to my booth.
The expense of staying at the Holiday Inn Express in Lancaster, from Wednesday to Sunday, which included rooms and meals for myself and my friend-helper, was a necessary cost of that entrepreneurial journey. By the second Meet I attended, when I started selling-out of everything I had made, the profit far exceeded my expenses, and that is when the overall experience at being there became fun. As long as I had product still on the tables of my booth in the Orange Hall, I stayed up to the last minute on Saturday, though usually very tired by then.
It turned out to be very lucky for me that I did, because two significant customers became accustomed to strolling into my booth, with purpose, late on Saturdays - Tony Lash and Richard Kughn. And for those of you who know of whom I speak when I mention their names. you can understand why I was motivated to stay to the last minute. Both paid with handsfull of hundred dollar bills (!!)
I tell you all this because staying until the last hour required on Saturdays can be a wise move, considering that we vendors are present to sell, even if we do get tired and a bit restless.
Also, several other customers, with whom I became further acquainted late on Saturdays, became clients, hiring me to travel to their layouts to do custom work, which took me as far as Kansas City, for example. To this day, I have more work to do for such clients than I can actually, as a practical matter, accomplish. So the investment of self, energy, time, tedium, hopes and dreams, and presenting my work, and staying to the last required minute paid off totally. What more could I have asked ? You never know what a few extra hours at York may accomplish. I didn't know, but I sure learned.
I didn't expect anybody to change rules to suit me. I expected, of myself, to keep to the commitment and promise to be there for the duration. The TCA promised me a place, in a nice building, a booth, that I had wanted to keep for each Meet. I kept my promises. The TCA kept theirs.
FrankM, Layout Refinements
C W Burfle posted:For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday? The vendors will follow the money. It's a win-win situation.
Couldn't that be turned around to say: "Why don't the attendees take off from work on Thursday and Friday to attend?
Generally speaking, this is a form of capitalism at its finest. A group of "member" "collectors" have an organization that puts on a "show"/"meet". They seem to do whatever "they" think is in their best interests. In fact, they probably do whatever meets the needs of their dues paying "members". And for 50+ years people have come in droves to their show.
If there was sufficient need to have this train show on Saturday and Sunday, you would think after 50 years of train shows the EDTCA would have stumbled onto that idea. Considering the aging demographic, the changing culture, and the total glut of trains on the market, it's impressive that the show still draws the large numbers it does.
Likewise, if there was a market for such a Sat/Sun show, you would think the mfgs, dealers, and others on the forum with their formidable prowess, capital, and advertising ability would have stumbled across that gaping void in the train show market by now.
Comparing the train show market in a city of say 2,720,546 to a train show in York, PA with a population of 43,859 is not realistic. Same goes for Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston areas, etc.
It seems to me that EDTCA has an excellent grasp of the train show they want to put on and promote. As mentioned before, this is a collectors show run by a collectors organization for the benefit of "the members". If it was profitable to stay till 6pm Saturday night, you can bet the dealers would do it, but it's not.
With a group of 10,000 to 15,000 attendees involved, it seems perfectly normal to have 42 dissatisfied people.
Man, think what dissatisfaction the Chicago Cubs organization dealt with for about 100 years between titles.
We work s gauge layouts at shows at different places and are told buy the show that we have to be out lets say by 5 pm, show is over at 4pm and it takes a hour and a half to pack and go . no choice but to pack at 330p this happens at most shows
wild mary posted:Andrew DeSabatino posted:wild mary posted:Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4? I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.
Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.
For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday? The vendors will follow the money. It's a win-win situation.
I believe the major issue with holding the York Meet on just Saturday and Sunday is what the cost to the Eastern Division would be from the York Fairgrounds. It's probably more expensive to rent the Fairgrounds on a weekend. I know sometimes they have other events scheduled on Saturday nights after the vendors clear out.
And if it costs more, you know what that means! The price of admission goes up, which would cause some members to gather torches and pitchforks.
Allan Miller posted:My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.
In an industry that is ailing enough that there is very little new tooling for new products, can the manufacturers/importers afford not to display what they have at an event that features loads of potential buyers? I guess that would be their decision or folly.
But then again, York attendees are mostly in the loop of what's available from them. But also, the old adage of 'out of sight, out of mind'. Same goes for the large vendors.
Traindiesel posted:I know sometimes they have other events scheduled on Saturday nights after the vendors clear out.
When our modular group was there, we had to be out of the Black Hall by 5pm for the set-up of a wedding reception.
Tom Tee posted:A lot of time & energy could be saved if this thread was locked, scanned and reposted after each York meet.
Hi Tom Tee, What harm is done? Even if your remark is jocular, this thread is just some guys who have common interests and the same hobby venting about what they find acceptable and unacceptable at the TCA Meets @ York. And if the same theme is repeated after each Meet, it must be addressing something as yet unsettled. Perhaps, matters were not addressed to the satisfaction of several voices on this forum. I don't see the tedium, nor cause for any criticism of such conversations, frankly.
FrankM
Every train show I've ever been to in the last 40 years, table holders have packed up early on the last day.
If you guys had bought more stuff, there would have been less to pack up.
Every 6 months we go through this crap. I think the ED should hold the York meet in Hawaii.
Hi Tom Tee, What harm is done? Even if your remark is jocular, this thread is just some guys who have common interests and the same hobby venting about what they find acceptable and unacceptable at the TCA Meets @ York.
I wonder why we don't see threads like this discussing any other meet?
Are they all perfect?
York was how many weeks ago now???????
Traindiesel posted:wild mary posted:Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4? I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.
I believe the major issue with holding the York Meet on just Saturday and Sunday is what the cost to the Eastern Division would be from the York Fairgrounds. It's probably more expensive to rent the Fairgrounds on a weekend. I know sometimes they have other events scheduled on Saturday nights after the vendors clear out.
And if it costs more, you know what that means! The price of admission goes up, which would cause some members to gather torches and pitchforks.
Point well taken Brian. I can see it now.
You can please some of the York Meet attendees all of the time, and all of the York Meet attendees some of the time, but you can't please all of the York Meet attendees all of the time.
C W Burfle posted:Hi Tom Tee, What harm is done? Even if your remark is jocular, this thread is just some guys who have common interests and the same hobby venting about what they find acceptable and unacceptable at the TCA Meets @ York.
I wonder why we don't see threads like this discussing any other meet?
Are they all perfect?
Yes they are. There are separate websites and forums, but no discussion.
Thankfully, OGR easily has the best website and forums to discuss these items/issues.
And as always, no one is forcing you to read this thread.
Allan Miller posted:You can please some of the York Meet attendees all of the time, and all of the York Meet attendees some of the time, but you can't please all of the York Meet attendees all of the time.
Hmmmm..... Sounds familiar.
Since we're essentially collecting as many metaphors and ideas about re-designing the York Meets as there are TCA members (well.....seems like it, anyway!
)....I'll add another...
"You never miss the water 'til the well runs dry!"
So, except for risking the loss of your place in the annual York Fairground lineup, it might be interesting to have EDTCA take a break in the York Meet. You know, skip a year or two. I'd bet there'd be less picking-of-nits once the meet resumes!
In fact, the cheering, applause, ...even ATTENDANCE!...might hit all-time record levels. Time for some wallet healing, hobby saving, too
Forget the tweaking. Try a sabbatical for some serious soul-searching.
Just an idea....
KD
prrhorseshoecurve posted:And you think it's bad here, try O scale shows where at a 9-3 show- if the "Big Vendors" DON'T make their $$, they pack up at noon!
And that just KILLS the show.
The March Chicago Oscame Show is a perfect example. Some start packing up right after the doors are opened on the last day that is supposed to go until 3. I always wait until at least 2 to start packing up and am just putting models back in their boxes. The dealers packing up early ruin the last day of the meet. Just my opinion
I think my frustration was venders were packing up early on Thursday and Friday. It was their lost sale. I can wait to spend my money on the next meet.
aussteve posted:...snip... Comparing the train show market in a city of say 2,720,546 to a train show in York, PA with a population of 43,859 is not realistic. Same goes for Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston areas, etc. ...snip...
York is very conveniently located within about a five hour drive of a very large percentage of the U. S. population with easy access and a bare minimum of tolls, free parking and somewhat reasonable hotel pricing; try matching that in NYC for example.
York is very conveniently located within about a five hour drive
Why five hours? To me that is an awfully long trip to see something for which I only have a minor interest or curiosity.
Yes they are.
I guess folks should skip York and go to those other shows then.
BUFFLE, I can tell you are having a ball on here.
Roger Lewis posted:prrhorseshoecurve posted:And you think it's bad here, try O scale shows where at a 9-3 show- if the "Big Vendors" DON'T make their $$, they pack up at noon!
And that just KILLS the show.
The March Chicago Oscame Show is a perfect example. Some start packing up right after the doors are opened on the last day that is supposed to go until 3. I always wait until at least 2 to start packing up and am just putting models back in their boxes. The dealers packing up early ruin the last day of the meet. Just my opinion
Actually, the Chicago March Meet runs until 2 pm on Sun. We used to watch you packing up as our cue to start packing for the long drive home.
We do pack up promptly when we can look around the room and see that it's turned into a wasteland of bottom feeders looking to buy that $100 bill with a $10 price tag on it on our table for $1.
After I have been there Thursday and Friday all day long, I don't care when they pack up and go home. My feet are very tired.
A business should be run like a business...I'm talking about the Orange/Purple hall commercial vendors at York.
If Home Depot is open until 9 at night and you arrive at 8 pm to buy some lumber, how would you feel about that business if they said, "lumber is only sold until 7 pm because the lumber guys were tired, and no one else buys lumber after 7?"
Sorry, but if you want me to do business with you (at York and during the year online), you ought to follow the published meet rules (no early packing up).
I do York on Thursday and Friday, but I think that paying customers on Saturday should expect the commercial vendors to be there, open for business during the advertised hours, especially as EDTCA tried to attract new non-train-guy customers!
If you pay to get into a "show" (call it what ever you want - OK, it's a meet) then you should get the whole show. Vendors who pack up early along with the Eastern Division of TCA which allows it are cheating their customers.
After every York this discussion happens. Time to let it go fellows. Let's talk about our trains instead of droning on about things we cannot change or just complaining of what you don't like.
The oct York will be my 68th straight York. I have never missed one since 1984 when I joined the TCA. I go, I enjoy, I come home happy.
Dave
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