Durability of MTH Wireless Drawbar

Don,

Aside from getting a new drawbar and female plug on the tender side (that's where mine loosens), I'm thinking of trying a tiny piece of packing tape on the wall of the female plug to tighten up the slack in the plug. If it doesn't work, it could easily be removed. 

They are still physically connected,there is no gap.

Dale H

Dale, you're arguing semantics now.  You have to have the drawbar connected for either locomotive tender combo.  OK, so it doesn't use IR to communicate.  It's still a vast improvement in appearance over wired tethers and even the Lionel IR tether.  The jury is still out about the reliability, since I don't have one, I also don't have a dog in that fight.

Words mean something

Definition of WIRELESS

Practically the same identical problem with my new 4-6-0 Pennsy steamer....it will occasionally stall on the track and go into shutdown mode because of the tender working it's way loose; as soon as I snap it back up again, it will run for a indeterminate period of time before working loose again.....to be honest, I like the Proto 2.0 engines rather  than these new steamer 3.0 engines....they are louder and the wire never gives me any problems...the 3.0 diesels on the other hand are GREAT!!!!

That's why I'm not sure mine is a drawbar only issue, and possibly a twisted wire issue as previously mentioned.  Mine doesn't go into "shutdown mode" when malfunctioning, but instead comes to a dead stop and the light goes out, but manipulating the drawbar connection gets it running again.

"Durability" really seems to be the question here.  I can see user issues when the tether is not connected properly or mishandled, but you guys talking about it "working itself" loose is what concerns me over the long-run (perhaps a small zip tie could be used to keep the plug ends cinched).  Either way it's a friction fit plug without a real release/retaining mechanism as you normally see on a lot of wire harness plugs, and it's designed as a part that moves around quite a bit (not just up & down on uneven track, but swiveling in turns) 

I love my basic little PS3 4-6-0 Pennsy; it has great sounds, it has great slow running, just great little engine...when it's working right.  Maybe MTH will improve the connection, add a lock tab, screw or some such.  I'd hate to think about reverting back to an unattractive tether.  However, if it means frequently replacing drawbars or fighting connectivity issues, I'd seriously consider converting it to a wire tether.  I'll be interested to hear how folks resolve this, long-run.
Robert

I think because we are involved in this thread points to a problem. The drawbar is a difficult, badly designed solution to couple the electronics of the tender to the electric  features of locomotive, particularly if the locomotive is large. My Yellowstone, Big Boy and R2 an 4-12-2 are so difficult even if turned on their side, that I dread putting them on the tracks. The smaller A5 and decopods are relatively easy. I wish MTH would come out with an alternate solution to be substituted for the drawbar.  As a result of my complaint above about the larger engines,  I now do not disconnect the larger locomotives any more, they are stored in cushioned plastic rain gutter "sleeves" and moved on to the track bodily. So far, no problem with the procedure.

Ok.....I just spoke with Don (a tech at MTH) about this issue. He gave me a few alternatives. He said that there were some issues with the earlier Northern engines and the turbines (and others) with the tether loosening. The cause was/is the screw that holds the tender side female plug. He asked me if when I push up on the drawbar pin, does it have any vertical travel? Mine has none. There's supposed to be. The drawbar has to be able to move from side to side as well as slightly up and down. If it can't move vertically, it WILL loosen. So....he said to take the tender shell off and back off on the screw enough to give it some play (it's a self tapping screw which should prevent it from loosening further). I also asked him if I could put a tiny piece of paper or tape against the wall of the female plug to take out some of the slack in the plug. He said, better yet, put some silicon on the sides of the plug if you don't separate the tender from the engine often. I really have no reason to separate them unless I have to take a shell off. The silicon (or GOOP that I always use) can always be removed later.   The factory solution for this is that they are using brass washers that just fit in the hole for the self tapping screw as a way to increase play without backing out the screw. 

So, bottom line, if your tether is loosening, it's not your imagination or your bad technique. It's a real problem that they are aware of. Before replacing the drawbar, it's worth a shot to try the alternative "fixes". 

Another thing that might help: I asked him about the two drawbars that came with the engine. I told him that I run this engine on 54 inch curves. He felt that 54 is probably the upper limit for the short drawbar. The longer one would have less chance of loosening, but is not as attractive between engine and tender. 

Hope this helps.....

Roger

Russell,

Yes, keeping them tied together helps. I'm always reluctant to put mine on the layout because  I know the hassle it will result in. With that said, though, I just got back from Ace Hardware. Don, the MTH tech, told me they use a "brass washer". So, I went to find one. Of all the washers they had, the one that fit the best was a tiny brass lockwasher. The diameter of the washer has to fit in the hole that the screw passes through. After I squeezed the "lock" sides of the washer together to make it flat, it was a perfect fit. Put the screw back in and now there was play in the tether (mainly vertical, the thickness of the washer). I ran the consist around my layout and......so far, so good. Time will tell, but that has to help.

Roger,

Thank you for sharing these tips and the information you received from MTH

I will be checking this out on my engine.

Robert

Robert,

You're very welcome. Let us know what you find on your engine. 

I too have have felt the sting of drawbar problems. A beautiful Railking Hudson that has failed twice and more recently a simple starter set steamer that was great for months until last night. I'm not sure it's the drawbar but it is also a drawbar engine. Have another starter set engine with the pigtail and no trouble. MTH's intentions are good but this is an awkward design to work with. Connecting the plug is an odd exercise as you have to feel for the connection. You can't see it. Also the tether itself is a small printed circuit board and should not -- IMO -- be carrying or subjected to load. And what the heck is that metal wire? My guess is that it has to be a ground connection between the tender and the loco. Otherwise it serves no purpose and wouldn't be there.

To all who weighed in on this thread THANK YOU BTW. It is a relief to know that my layout wiring is not flawed or toxic and that I am not the victim of "Protoltergeists". Yeah, lame play on words I know but I had to get it out there.

Got my B6 0-6-0 from my dealer and it was in for the drawbar falling out after about 15/20 minutes of runtime. Of course, it performed beautifully for my dealer's repairman and didn't give him one issue. Got it home and boom, out it comes after a few minutes. After scratching my head and looking at it, with some occasional foul language, I got the grand idea that I could wrap a heavy duty plastic zip-tie around the drawbar and plug to keep it from falling out. 

Did so and the engine runs beautifully - no drawbar issues whatsoever. Perhaps those with the issues may want to try it. You won't be able to remove the engine/tender without undoing the tie but for me, that is ok and works great. 

In my opinion, this is a design problem that could be cured by a simple locking horizontal (rather than vertical) connection.  I hope MTH has some improvement on the design before I take delivery of the Premier Union Pacific Challenger (no. 3711) I have on preorder.

Robert,

I just replaced my drawbar. I've been waiting a month for MTH to send me one under warranty (see further up on the thread). I tried the washer in the tender end of the tether and that helped, but the fact of the matter was, the clip on the tender end of my drawbar is/was loose. I did not want to send my engine in to have them put in a drawbar. My B-6 is there as I type this......second time. I got it back worse than I sent it so I had to immediately send it back. I didn't want this engine to get lost in the same limbo (so far it's been 2 weeks on a "priority fix"). So....eventually they sent me a replacement. The tech (Don) told me that my original 30mm was probably a touch short for my 54 inch curves, so I requested a 35. It arrived without the metal "spring" and the plastic clip that holds it. I cut down a spring from the 50mm that came with the engine and used the same clip, but I'm wondering if MTH isn't bothering with those parts anymore (I plan to call on Tuesday when I can speak with a tech). Interesting.....the new 3 drawbar 6 pin kits that were recently shipped, do not come with spring or clip either. ???

As for performance with the new drawbar. This one "clicks" in and has a very solid connection. My engine has yet to exhibit it's original problem of stopping spontaneously. I think that the combination of the new bar and the "washer fix" have helped tremendously. But I think that the less I clip and unclip the drawbar, the better off my engine will be.

Did you try putting the washer in the tether? It gives the connection up and down movement.....has to help.

Roger

Roger, thank you very much for the reply.  I was hoping to hear about your results.  I remembered reading where you were hoping MTH would send you a replacement drawbar, and hoping that would solve the problem so you did not have to send it in.  I also remember your posts on the washer.  I'll re-read your prior posts and make sure I'm following correctly.

I understand you not wanting to send it in another time, especially if you're already on the second attempt with the B-6.  Mine has already been to MTH for this loose connection once (drawbar issue), and was declared okay...or "no problem found"...5-6 weeks for that diagnosis.  Upon return it malfunctioned the same way, right out of the box, and I'm only able to get it running after much fiddling with the drawbar.  Only my connection issue seems to be resolved by moving the drawbar side to side (similar to how it would pivot in turns).

I'm not even sure what I'm adjusting when I do get it right, but whatever it is, the engine will then run and run, through turns and even on not the most perfectly level track without missing a beat...but pick them up and set them back down and it's back to fiddling with the connection...frustrating!

Mine seems to have the necessary movement up & down to allow the drawbar to flex, but I have not specifically checked for the washer you installed at the tender end.  Would you by any chance be able to share a pic of that?

I don't want to suggest you contort your newly installed drawbar for the purpose of a pic...although it seems a bit ridiculous to have to handle these things as if they're delicate artifacts.

Thanks again Roger!

Robert

Robert,

     Yes, this has been a long, painful process. I don't know that I want to take that tether apart again. Every time you do it, it can loosen it. But I'll tell you exactly what I did. At the tender end is the metal post that goes through the drawbar. It is attached to the tender frame by a screw. Take it apart  and you'll see a washer shaped hole. You need to find a washer that will fit in that hole. I went to ACE hardware.....I have alot of luck finding weird hardware for my trains in their "back room". I found a brass lock washer that when flattened was a perfect fit for the hole. Put it in and then reassemble. It can't hurt to try that. But Don at MTH said that some of the more recent engines are coming through with a washer installed. Check it. 

     Now.....what kind of curves are you running that engine on? A 30mm bar might be too small. The curves cause alot of twist. As I said, I went with a 35. You can go bigger, but then the spacing between the tender and engine starts to look non-prototypical. Maybe it runs ok for them because they run big curves. Possible.  By the way, Don also said you could put some silicon or other adhesive on the sides of the clip to keep it in place. 

     As for the B-6.....different issue (at least it appears to be). Out of the box it didn't run right. Forward ok, but in reverse (especially on a curve) it would get stuck and start chattering. I thought it was a drawbar thing initially because the sound was effected. I found a loose clip. Clicked it in.....no change. Then I found a side rail that was contacting a guide bar in reverse. Bent it back out. No change. Put my ear against the shell and then I could hear that the chatter was gear noise. Opened the shell.......loose motor mount. Tightened it and it seemed to work for a week. Came back again. So at that point I sent it in. Got it back, put it on the track and tried reverse. Seemed ok, but then the engine was running herky jerk around the layout. Oh man.....shipped it right back. Nice quality control.  But that's why I didn't want to send this Northern in. When I found that the new drawbar didn't come with the spring and plastic clip, I thought.....I don't want to order that from MTH.....it will take forever. So I contacted Jason at Jason's Train Shop to get a 3 bar set. He looked in the package and noticed that they didn't have those parts on them either. So, I cannibalized the 50mm one I had. Now I'm thinking that maybe they've decided those parts serve no purpose. I'll find out Tuesday.

Let us know what you end up trying

Roger

Clarification on the washer fix. The screw that holds that metal post on to the frame passes through the hole that the washer will go into. So....the washer has to be sized to allow the screw to pass through it and also fit into the round hole you'll see when you take it apart. Once apart, you'll see exactly what I mean. 

Okay, I think I'm following you here.  This screw mounts the square post on the tender that goes in the square hole on the drawbar.

The washer has to be large enough inner diameter to accept the screw, but small enough outer diameter to fit in the recessed hole of the tender's chassis.

Glad (sorta) to hear your B-6 was not another drawbar issues, but not to hear about another QC problem.  Hopefully they'll get it right.

When I found that the new drawbar didn't come with the spring and plastic clip...So, I cannibalized the 50mm one I had.

It sounds like this spring and clip are on the engine end if I'm following your correctly Roger?

When you say "cannibalized" do you mean they were physically attached to the 50mm draw bar and you had to cut or pull them apart?

I will definitely check to see if mine has the washer on the tender post, and if not add one...luckily we've still got an ACE hardware in town.

I'm only running on O42 and O31, so I'm going to ask MTH to send me a new drawbar under warranty and see if I can live with a 35mm as you suggest.  To be honest I would think they would be happy to ship the 3 pack replacement on these issues and give me the option (and a back-up or two).  I bought this engine as part of an RTR set at the end of January this year, and it worked for about 1 month before the drawbar problems started...and they just got progressively worse.

Sincerely, many thanks Roger!  Hopefully your, mine and others experiences will lead to some long term fixes, if not some design improvement on the part of MTH.  I'll definitely post back regarding the outcome.

Robert

Robert,

As soon as you take the mounting screw off, it will all be apparent. That brass washer was very thin, but gave the tether quite a bit of play (it actually kind of rocks around). 

If I were you, I'd call MTH and ask the tech about the drawbar length. 35 might be too short for 031 and even 042. They gave me a bit of a hard time with the drawbar. Usually, if it's still under warranty, they'll send me a part rather than send the engine (or whatever). Saves everybody time and money. But this time, Midge referred my request to the service manager and nothing happened for weeks. Eventually, she just sent me one. I even offered to buy one (the heck with the warranty) just to get one and be done with it.

As for the "spring".....it's probably some kind of ground wire (as someone above previously suggested). You'll see it on top of the drawbar. It contacts the screw and spring in the engine end and the metal post at the tender end. The plastic clip I was referring to goes around the top of the drawbar and has a hole in it through which the "spring" passes. My engine came with an extra drawbar.....a 50mm. I cut the spring on that one to fit the new 35mm bar and used the old plastic clip (albeit that it's shorter than it should be.....nothing that a black Sharpie won't hide). 

BTW Roger, I meant respond to this with...no, no, no I would not suggest you take the tether loose again (given their nature) for the sake of a pic or for any other reason short of natural disaster, act of God, etc. 

I know exactly where to put the washer thanks to your thorough description.

And...OH! That spring...thanks for the tip on that.  It may have something to do with ground as suggested.  Interesting that your spare 50mm drawbar came with one, but the replacements don't.

I'm going to start with MTH service first I imagine, as this engine previously visited Maryland under a RA number, and see if they can get me over to parts with Midge and send one out to me under warranty.

I certainly appreciate all your help, and will share the results with you & the rest of the OGR folks.

Robert

I just got off the phone with Dick (one of the techs at MTH). I asked him about the spring and plastic casing around the drawbar. As noted above, I had to cut down an extra spring I had in order to fit it on the new drawbar (which was shipped from MTH without the spring or case) and used the old case. The spring is a ground connection, but he said that the case was more important. It prevents damage to the traces in the drawbar either from the spring or derailments. I asked him why, then, aren't the newly released drawbar kits being shipped with springs or cases. He laughed and said....." I haven't the foggiest". So....bottom line, if you're going to change out your drawbar, you have to either use the old case and make a "spring" or order that stuff from parts at MTH. Doesn't make sense.  It probably also doesn't make sense to order the kits at all because you won't have any of the other parts. I think it's going to be better (albeit slower) to order the one drawbar size you actually need and it's parts directly from Midge and then wait for it.