Engine pickup roller pin issue - any advice?

For all the guys that think you can easily spread an MTH frame, because you can spread a Prewar and PW frame, go buy an MTH engine and try it.

Just because the older PW collector assemblies where easier to work with, doesn't mean that the modern Chinese ones are.  They are not!  They are brittle.

Again, everyone is making this harder than it is.  The MTH pin is not like any original Lionel stuff.  It has a shoulder.  Having said that a PW roller and Pin can be made to work.  Once you dremel off the head of the pin at both ends it comes out.

One side of the bracket is sized to accept the new pin, the other side is a smaller hole.  Using a small drill and supporting the bracket (thin sheet metal that you don't want the drill bit to twist when it bits); drill the hole larger to accept the PW pin diameter.

Install the pin and new roller.  The head of the new pin will retain one end, you peen the other end and now the pin and roller are locked in place, but the roller spins free.  DONE!

Next time the roller wears, you dremel off the peen end, push the pin out, install a new roller and pin and peen again.  Repeat as necessary for how ever long you own the engine.   Let's not make this too complicated, that is for the Legacy/DCS forum.  G

P.S. The first time I did this, I spread the frame, think I even had to partially remove a wheel for clearance, had to trim the new collector to get it back in and it still fractured.  Had to straighten the frame back.  That was the last time I wasted all that time and risk to an engine.  

GGG: thanks for continuing to support what I've been saying (planted in my head originally by you!) about not being a walk in the park to replace the thing.

I'm glad to you mentioned supporting the roller frame so that it didn't twist!!!!  I probably wouldn't have thought of that.

Ken: I thought of super glue too but was concerned that if some got inside the roller than it wouldn't turn.  Sound reasonable???  (I never use the stuff so don't know if my logic is right)

thanks - walt

Just a thought: WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PIN?  Besides holding the roller in place.

I'm thinking that the electrical flow goes thru it to the roller frame and then into the engine.  If so, I believe that's why the body of the pin is a larger diameter - to perfectly match the size of the hole in the roller to make good contact. 

Does that make sense?

walt

Walt, note that Ken said to use the thicker stuff, for just that reason.  I once tried Loctite to tighten a loose flywheel on a vertical shaft can motor.  It worked: seeped into the top bushing and locked it tight.

Makes very good sense.  At the risk of trebling this thread I'll note that: (1) a good connection is essential; (2) lubrication of a roller is recommended; (3) oil is an insulator; (4) ????????

quote:

The MTH pin is not like any original Lionel stuff.  It has a shoulder.

Postwar Lionel part number 2023-44 roller pin is shouldered and has no head, as has been described in this thread. The collector arm for this pin has two different sized holes. The pin is inserted through the larger hole so the thinner end comes out of through the smaller hole in the collector arm. the smaller end is then peened so it won't come back out.

I am not saying the 2023-44 pin will fit.

If the correct pin was available, I would suggest getting it.

Otherwise I think the solution GGG suggested is fine, as is many of the other suggestions.

I am not so certain about glue or Loctite. The pin does have to conduct electricity.

So far on reading all of the suggested solutions very few, if any, are taking into account that a.) the pickup roller must be free to 'ROTATE' or it will develop a groove in short time and b.) the rivet is a part of the electrical circuit and no insulating material such as glues, epoxies and related kin should be used.

Ron M

Like I said solder the outside of the pin.  It will be free to rotate and I have it on good authority that solder is decent for electrical circuits.

quote:

So far on reading all of the suggested solutions very few, if any, are taking into account that a.) the pickup roller must be free to 'ROTATE' or it will develop a groove in short time and b.) the rivet is a part of the electrical circuit and no insulating material such as glues, epoxies and related kin should be used.

I have to respectfully disagree.
A properly installed rivet or screw would conduct electricity fine, and would allow the roller to rotate.

While I wouldn't do it, even carefully applied glue or Loctite might be OK. (The original poster wrote that he is uncomfortable soldering).

Carefully applied glue or Loctite on the small end would not stop the roller from turning. The pin would be in contact with the metal holder on the other (large hole) end, and most of the time, the roller would probably be rubbing against the roller arm.

So electricity could flow through there.

And that doesn't work.  You need a rivet with a head.

If I remember correctly the pin your talking about is staked on one side and sits free in the other hole.  You can bend the collector bracket back to free the roller and bend back in place when a new roller is installed.

To remove the MTH pin from the thin sheet metal bracket you need to grind both sides of the pin off.  This is very much like some Lionel pre war train collectors.  I think the pin I used was more like a 481-11 used on the collector of a PW tender truck.  G

Here are some pictures.  The middle collector is the MTH version on it side.  It is very similar to the top and bottom collector which I believe are preproduction prewar collectors.  The Reproduction collectors have two large equal size holes and use a solid roller with protrusions to fit in the holes.

You remove this roller by bending one side of the bracket and freeing the solid roller.  Install a new roller and bend the bracket back in place.

You can go this route also.  The MTH collector has thinner metal, and overtime it will probably break, but this certainly is one method that will work.  You still need to drill out one side of the MTH bracket, but you have to do that for either method.

Notice in the second picture, the pin ends on the MTH collector.  One roller show the pin with head side, the other roller shows the opposite side of the pin that is almost flush with the bracket.  It fits into the smaller hole and then is peened to mushroom and lock into the bracket side.  So the other method is to use an appropriate pin with one side having a head, and the other requiring peening and a hollow roller.

Any of these parts would be easy to get at a train show from the local parts dealers.   G

Just want to take a minute and says Thanks for all the suggestions and counter-suggestions, with comments, both + and -, about various suggestions.

I repeat my main head-scratcher: what a crappy design!

- walt