ERR Upgrade Newbie- 6/11/22 Update- Final Assembly and Road Test....Sort Of

Very nice F3s, Bob!  I have no experience with ERR upgrades, But would like to tag along.

Thanks Mark. Since I snagged one of the Menards F3 (7's), I've rekindled my love of the Santa Fe. Bad for my wallet but good for my railroad.

Bob

Bob,

   It's pretty easy, just follow the directions and bundle your wires so that they do not get pinched when you put the shell on.

Marty

For LED's, put a 470 ohm resistor in series with the lighting outputs, and note that the frame is positive for the LED connection.  Make sure you use the 1uf NP caps across the brushes of the motors.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

For LED's, put a 470 ohm resistor in series with the lighting outputs, and note that the frame is positive for the LED connection.  Make sure you use the 1uf NP caps across the brushes of the motors.

Thanks John- I saw the caps listed in the wiring instructions. I'm sure I'll have more questions but I think I got this.

@martind posted:

Bob,

   It's pretty easy, just follow the directions and bundle your wires so that they do not get pinched when you put the shell on.

Marty

I'm a licensed electrician- wire management is in my blood.....

Bob

Wow, Bob... when you dive in, you go straight for the deep end!!! Good luck with the conversion.

@Apples55 posted:

Wow, Bob... when you dive in, you go straight for the deep end!!! Good luck with the conversion.

Yep. Go big or go home I always say! 😂😂

Good luck! Like Mark, tagging along. Please post some pictures as you progress.

The actual upgrade is easy enough. The instructions were good and I felt like a dummy for ever doubting myself.

But MAN did I bungle the wire organizing part. I didn't do any planning. I just figured I would figure it out as I go but that is not how it went down. I have another engine to upgrade and figuring out where the wires go will top priority.

The process seems intimidating until you do one, then you wonder what the fuss was all about.  The instructions are great, there are wiring diagrams on line that are helpful.  Make sure you add the caps, if not provided these are easily found on amazon.

I have not done any AC commanders, I am converting all of my pullmor to can motors and doing Cruise Commanders.

I am on number 18 ERR upgrade and find it very relaxing, my only snafu so far has been a camelback that refuses to accept data, even with GRJ data kit. The Diesels have all been straight forward (14 of those converted so far, a mix of Williams, Weaver, proto 1 and Lionel).

@Ron_S posted:

I have not done any AC commanders, I am converting all of my pullmor to can motors and doing Cruise Commanders.

I am on number 18 ERR upgrade and find it very relaxing, my only snafu so far has been a camelback that refuses to accept data, even with GRJ data kit. The Diesels have all been straight forward (14 of those converted so far, a mix of Williams, Weaver, proto 1 and Lionel).

I'll stick with the pullmor's on this one. I have a bunch of PS-1's that will get upgraded eventually too.

The nice part about MTH engines, they are already set up for tethers, which makes it very easy to do a tethered CC to run an ABA with 4 or more motors.

As fate would have it, I snagged a couple of boards from a forum member last week. I picked up an AC commander and a mini commander with sound board. I think I will do the MC in one of my BEEPs first. I'm still debating swapping the pullmor's for can motors in the F3's. Waiting to here back from Frank at Timko.

I have @gunrunnerjohn 's post on doing a BEEP upgrade bookmarked. I will follow his lead.

Bob

Good luck, the BEEP should go pretty smoothly with those boards.

I started working on the board install yesterday. All was going fine until I tested the engine. Nothing, squat, bupkis!
I set the switch to "run", and was expecting it to run in manual off the transformer, I checked the wiring and all was correct so I decided to leave it for the evening.
As I was pondering what may be wrong, besides a fried board, I realized that my Cab 1L base was powered on and the board saw the TMCC signal and was waiting for the start up command. The board had probably been programmed by the previous owner and wouldn't work until I reprogrammed it with my remote.
Sometimes waiting and sleeping on stuff pays off. I put it on the track this afternoon in program mode and ENG/1/DIR later......IT'S ALIVE! After confirming that the basic functions work, I connected the sound board and tested it. Also a success!
Next steps are to get the lighting set up. I'm going to use LED's for the headlights and markers. I may get a strobe for the hood as well. Following GRJ's instructions, I need to order some 470 ohm resistors, and more LED's.

Bob

Congrats so far!!

George

@RSJB18 posted:

I started working on the board install yesterday. All was going fine until I tested the engine. Nothing, squat, bupkis!
I set the switch to "run", and was expecting it to run in manual off the transformer, I checked the wiring and all was correct so I decided to leave it for the evening.
As I was pondering what may be wrong, besides a fried board, I realized that my Cab 1L base was powered on and the board saw the TMCC signal and was waiting for the start up command. The board had probably been programmed by the previous owner and wouldn't work until I reprogrammed it with my remote.
Sometimes waiting and sleeping on stuff pays off. I put it on the track this afternoon in program mode and ENG/1/DIR later......IT'S ALIVE! After confirming that the basic functions work, I connected the sound board and tested it. Also a success!
Next steps are to get the lighting set up. I'm going to use LED's for the headlights and markers. I may get a strobe for the hood as well. Following GRJ's instructions, I need to order some 470 ohm resistors, and more LED's.

Bob

Great horn!

@RSJB18 posted:.

Sometimes waiting and sleeping on stuff pays off.

Bob ain’t that the truth.

It’s hard to step  away from a problem sometimes. However, it is usually the first step to the solution.

Glad you got it working.

Congratulations, Bob!  Sounds great!  I have a couple engines I would like to do the same for

@Mark Boyce posted:

Congratulations, Bob!  Sounds great!  I have a couple engines I would like to do the same for

It's a very straight forward install Mark.

Jump in the water's fine. 👍👍😁

@BillYo414 posted:

The actual upgrade is easy enough. The instructions were good and I felt like a dummy for ever doubting myself.

But MAN did I bungle the wire organizing part. I didn't do any planning. I just figured I would figure it out as I go but that is not how it went down. I have another engine to upgrade and figuring out where the wires go will top priority.

I usually use wire nuts when starting out. Then test to be sure I did everything correctly. Once I’m happy with the results, which includes wire routing,  I either solder and heat shrink tube the connections or twist the wires together and use heat shrink as the wire nut. Heat shrink takes up a lot less space. It just depends what kind of mood I’m in whether I solder and heat shrink or just heat shrink.
Steve

Steve, that’s a good sounding method.  I use alligator clip jumpers to check things first, but often have a mess and one pops loose.  The temporary word nut is a good idea

That's a good idea @RideTheRails. I just go for the full permanent soldered joint right off the bat. Wire nuts would be a much better route until I get things settled.

Bob, I am not big on sound but that beep now has Big Sound! Excellent! Onward with headlights, markers and strobe. Nice job.

Nice work Bob!

Making more progress

First I had to fix a problem with the rollers. The original rollers are full width and the edges were shorting on my 027 switches. Some time on the grinder solved the problem for the most part. Still some fine tuning to do.

First pass

Final product

I picked up the parts I needed for the lighting upgrade. I'm converting to WW led's for directional head lights. Also adding separate number board lights. As per GRJ's wiring diagram, I added 470 ohm resistors to the output side of the led.

The 3mm led's fit perfectly in the headlight holes in the shell. I will add some barriers to control the spill over. One board down, one to go.

I find many times that lighting takes up a lot more time than the rest of the conversion for diesels!

BTW, to shield the light I use heatshrink and then for any additional leakage, Liquid Tape.

Looks like a great job, Bob!  It sounds from John's experience you have already tackled the tough parts.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I find many times that lighting takes up a lot more time than the rest of the conversion for diesels!

BTW, to shield the light I use heatshrink and then for any additional leakage, Liquid Tape.

That's a good idea John. Thanks

Thanks Mark, Pierre, and Jeff.

Bob

That is a great looking outcome Bob. As with your other endeavors; impressive!

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

That is a great looking outcome Bob. As with your other endeavors; impressive!

Thank you Jay. I'm having fun with this project. Hopefully the outcome will be as satisfying.

A quick update- I needed some smaller diameter heat shrink than what I had on hand. I went by our local Micro Center yesterday, (about the closest thing to Radio Shack today). They have a decent Maker and STEM area that is relatively well stocked. First I picked up a nice assortment set, a little pricey at $20. I also grabbed some 220 ohm resistors, and some short jumper wires that fit on the pins for the couplers on ERR boards.

Then I thought about getting a heat gun for the heat shrink. I usually use a lighter to shrink tubing but when working near other components, that can be a little dicey.  I found one for $25 and then saw another with the same set of tubes I had in hand with a gun for $30.00. A win all around. A couple of new tips for my soldering iron came along for the ride too.

I also tried making a wiring harness. Need to fine tune it a bit but this will work.

Bob

Bob, nice wiring harness.  I haven’t done that in ages.  We don’t have any store like you were in.  Though I’m glad I don’t live on Long Island 😉

@Mark Boyce posted:

Bob, nice wiring harness.  I haven’t done that in ages.  We don’t have any store like you were in.  Though I’m glad I don’t live on Long Island 😉

On most of my builds I have to build harnesses.  I typically use JST-EH connectors, though they're in short supply right now.  Since the JST-XH are similar size and available, I'm using them nowadays.

I never make a build where the shell can't be totally separated from the chassis.  If you don't do that, it makes it a PITA to do maintenance.  I also add a harness to the smoke unit so you can remove it for service.

Exactly my plan John.

@RSJB18 posted:

Exactly my plan John.

And it's a good plan!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Bob, nice wiring harness.  I haven’t done that in ages.  We don’t have any store like you were in.  Though I’m glad I don’t live on Long Island 😉

I'd give up the store to get off LI in a heartbeat Mark.

Thanks

@RSJB18 posted:

I'd give up the store to get off LI in a heartbeat Mark.

Thanks

I'm sure you would, Bob!

The closest I have ever been to you was I-88 Binghamton to Albany on the way to Lake George 10 years ago.  That was close enough!!!

I connected the lighting to the MC last night to test it out. I got the headlights to work with engine direction but not the markers. Not sure if it's a programming issue or electrical yet.

I'm using the "feature" terminal on the MC board and followed the programming instructions on the Cab-1L but nothing. All of the commons are tied together under the same terminal too.

Thoughts?

Also, I'm not getting the correct sound out of the board. It's not going through the start up and rev sequence that it should. Can these boards be reprogrammed?

Being a ERR and Cab-1L newbie on both, I'm still feeling my way through programming engines with the remote.

Bob

If you posted a schematic of how you wired the lights it would make it a ton easier to analyze the issue.

Are you using the ERR RailSounds Commander?  If so, you should be getting all the sounds.  Not being able to hear what sounds you are getting makes it hard to say if it's working correctly.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you posted a schematic of how you wired the lights it would make it a ton easier to analyze the issue.

Are you using the ERR RailSounds Commander?  If so, you should be getting all the sounds.  Not being able to hear what sounds you are getting makes it hard to say if it's working correctly.

I attached a quick sketch John. I'm working from your schematic from your BEEP build.

Here is a short video with the sounds on start up. The boards are MC V-2 and SC V-2.10.  I will confirm the numbers on the SC board this evening.

Mystery solved, you are using the Sound Commander, not the RailSounds Commander.  The old Sound Commander didn't have startup or shutdown sounds.  I used the full RailSounds commander for my BEEP build.

As for the markers, the polarity is reversed, the feature output is positive in respect to frame ground, the headlight/taillight outputs are negative in respect to frame ground.

The reason mine weren't wired that way is I didn't use the feature output for the markers, I used the front/back headlights to make the markers color directional with dual-color common anode LED's.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mystery solved, you are using the Sound Commander, not the RailSounds Commander.  The old Sound Commander didn't have startup or shutdown sounds.  I used the full RailSounds commander for my BEEP build.

As for the markers, the polarity is reversed, the feature output is positive in respect to frame ground, the headlight/taillight outputs are negative in respect to frame ground.

The reason mine weren't wired that way is I didn't use the feature output for the markers, I used the front/back headlights to make the markers color directional with dual-color common anode LED's.

That's why you're the expert John.

I will swap the wires later. I had a feeling that may be the problem but it was getting late last night and I decided to pull the plug for the evening.

I can live with the sounds as they are. I just didn't know if the board was working correctly.

Thanks sir!
Bob

I have officially completed my first ERR upgrade. I finished the wiring and got the shell back on with little problem.

I tested the marker lights and John had suggested but could not get them to work. Not sure if it was still a wiring issue or a programming one. I decided to connect them to the track power terminals. I figured they are always on anyway and they will be a indicator of when the engine is on a powered track or siding.

I took everything apart and cleaned up the wiring, had to replace the power wire coming from the pickups (it broke), and re-solder one of the motor leads. Better at that point then after I put it all together.

Once that was done I made up the JST plugs for the lighting. Now I can completely remove the shell and not have to cut any wires. I may update the lighting in my other two beeps and could swap shells depending on what I'm running.

Here are a couple pix of the final assembly. The three wire harness is the headlights and the two wire is the markers.

This was a fun project. I'm going to do an AC commander in my Santa Fe F3's next.

On the left is the lighting complete, and the right with the sound commander installed.

And here's the final product on a test run.

@RSJB18 posted:

I have officially completed my first ERR upgrade. I finished the wiring and got the shell back on with little problem.

I tested the marker lights and John had suggested but could not get them to work. Not sure if it was still a wiring issue or a programming one. I decided to connect them to the track power terminals. I figured they are always on anyway and they will be a indicator of when the engine is on a powered track or siding.

I took everything apart and cleaned up the wiring, had to replace the power wire coming from the pickups (it broke), and re-solder one of the motor leads. Better at that point then after I put it all together.

Once that was done I made up the JST plugs for the lighting. Now I can completely remove the shell and not have to cut any wires. I may update the lighting in my other two beeps and could swap shells depending on what I'm running.

Here are a couple pix of the final assembly. The three wire harness is the headlights and the two wire is the markers.

This was a fun project. I'm going to do an AC commander in my Santa Fe F3's next.

On the left is the lighting complete, and the right with the sound commander installed.

And here's the final product on a test run.

Bob,Looks greay and sounds great. Good things come from patience and perseverance.

Looks great Bob…..now onto the next project!!!

Very nicely done Bob, you are very patient.

Great job, now enjoy your train 🚂.

Next stop a big steamer!

wow, nice job! Beeping amazing Bob!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Next stop a big steamer!

And a bigger layout to run it on too! 🤣🤣

@RSJB18 posted:

I have officially completed my first ERR upgrade. I finished the wiring and got the shell back on with little problem.

I tested the marker lights and John had suggested but could not get them to work. Not sure if it was still a wiring issue or a programming one. I decided to connect them to the track power terminals. I figured they are always on anyway and they will be a indicator of when the engine is on a powered track or siding.

I took everything apart and cleaned up the wiring, had to replace the power wire coming from the pickups (it broke), and re-solder one of the motor leads. Better at that point then after I put it all together.

Once that was done I made up the JST plugs for the lighting. Now I can completely remove the shell and not have to cut any wires. I may update the lighting in my other two beeps and could swap shells depending on what I'm running.

Here are a couple pix of the final assembly. The three wire harness is the headlights and the two wire is the markers.

This was a fun project. I'm going to do an AC commander in my Santa Fe F3's next.

On the left is the lighting complete, and the right with the sound commander installed.

And here's the final product on a test run.

HATE TO SOUND GOOFY.... but ......YIPEE BOB.

Really great to see all that effort pay off with a good looking locomotive. 👍

Nice job, Bob.

Thanks folks for the comments and support.

@Dallas Joseph @laz1957 @Tranquil Hollow RR @Rich Wiemann @Dave Ripp. @Leroof @gunrunnerjohn

Bob

Congrats, Bob... ain’t command control great??? Looks like you’ve heavily greased the slippery slope

Looks great, Bob!  Great job!!

@Apples55 posted:

Congrats, Bob... ain’t command control great??? Looks like you’ve heavily greased the slippery slope

I've officially hit bottom and am on my second trip down.

Where the heck did my grease gun go????????

@Mark Boyce posted:

Looks great, Bob!  Great job!!

Thanks Mark.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

And a bigger layout to run it on too! 🤣🤣

Here you go, runs on O31 curves. This is the K-Line Reading Crusader, I just wrapped up a full command upgrade on it.  It got the works, cruise, sound, all led lighting, fan driven smoke, ground lights, flickering firebox, etc.

Great job with that Crusader, John!  Being from Western Pennsylvania and West Virginia, I can't recall ever seeing photographs of models or the prototype of the Crusader until I got into O gauge 10 years ago.  It is certainly a neat streamlined steamer.

Looks nice John. Not my cup of tea though.

I have a Lionel B6 0-6-0 w/ a Pullmor motor and TMCC that I'm considering sending to Pat @harmonyards for a Pittman upgrade. ERR would follow.

That'll be a small Pittman I suspect.   There's not that much room in those guys.

I wouldn't expect it to pull 10 heavyweights.......

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Here you go, runs on O31 curves. This is the K-Line Reading Crusader, I just wrapped up a full command upgrade on it.  It got the works, cruise, sound, all led lighting, fan driven smoke, ground lights, flickering firebox, etc.

What.......no LED ditch lights John ?

Really nice GRJ .  What a talent.     And what an immense size area for the Crusader to run on.

I was looking at this thread Bob, and I have to ask.  Did you ever find the BEEP Commander Horn?  If not, try AUX1/2 next time you run it.

That’s a sleek looking engine John. During the summer my friends and I would hurry through dinner so we could get over to the, now defunct, Logan station at 6:15 PM on the Reading to watch the Crusader on it’s inbound trip to Reading Terminal. Of course, it was a F3 on the headend.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was looking at this thread Bob, and I have to ask.  Did you ever find the BEEP Commander Horn?  If not, try AUX1/2 next time you run it.

John- the horn and bell functions work fine. Are you thinking of the issue I had with the marker lights off of the smoke output? I put them to the track pick ups.

Bob

It's not the horn/bell that I'm talking about Bob, the BEEP RS Commander you're using has a special second "horn" that is triggered by AUX1/2 when you're running, it's a fun feature.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's not the horn/bell that I'm talking about Bob, the BEEP RS Commander you're using has a special second "horn" that is triggered by AUX1/2 when you're running, it's a fun feature.

No- I was not aware. I will give it a try.

Thanks

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's not the horn/bell that I'm talking about Bob, the BEEP RS Commander you're using has a special second "horn" that is triggered by AUX1/2 when you're running, it's a fun feature.

That's a good one John. Got a good laugh when I hit the button......

Thanks for the tip.

It is a BEEP after all.

Perfect beep for the BEEP, John!  Looking good, Bob!

Interesting that I started this thread last Fall with a pic of the new Santa Fe F3's I had just bought.

OK so I got sidelined with the BEEP but now it's time to take on the big boys.

My plan- AC Commander, railsounds, all LED lighting, directional headlights, number boards, and red/green marker lights. No smoke. Adding electro-couplers on both engines too. I bought a MTH tether harness set with plans to light the dummy engine to match the powered unit.

I've stripped out the original e-unit and cleaned up the wiring. Started laying out the boards to see what will fit where. It's tight but I think everything will fit in the powered A. I want the flexibility to run the powered unit as a single A so I'm hoping to keep the sound set in this engine. The speaker and enclosure are the biggest issue. After the BEEP I figured this would be a cake walk- forgot about the two honkin' big pullmor motors.

Today I got the capacitors on the motors and AC comm board installed and tested. So far so good. More to come.

Bob

Drill holes in the tank, put a piece of plastic sheet over the speaker and the sound board in the tank, the AC Commander goes on top.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Drill holes in the tank, put a piece of plastic sheet over the speaker and the sound board in the tank, the AC Commander goes on top.

My original plan was to put the speaker in the bottom of the tank. That's why you're the expert John. I'll take a look.

I thought the AC comm needed the extra heat sink by mounting it to the frame. No?

Thanks

@RSJB18 posted:

Interesting that I started this thread last Fall with a pic of the new Santa Fe F3's I had just bought.

OK so I got sidelined with the BEEP but now it's time to take on the big boys.

My plan- AC Commander, railsounds, all LED lighting, directional headlights, number boards, and red/green marker lights. No smoke. Adding electro-couplers on both engines too. I bought a MTH tether harness set with plans to light the dummy engine to match the powered unit.

I've stripped out the original e-unit and cleaned up the wiring. Started laying out the boards to see what will fit where. It's tight but I think everything will fit in the powered A. I want the flexibility to run the powered unit as a single A so I'm hoping to keep the sound set in this engine. The speaker and enclosure are the biggest issue. After the BEEP I figured this would be a cake walk- forgot about the two honkin' big pullmor motors.

Today I got the capacitors on the motors and AC comm board installed and tested. So far so good. More to come.

Bob

Very cool Bob

Maybe, someday, I give updates like yours a try. Thanks for the inspiration and for sharing

@RSJB18 posted:

My original plan was to put the speaker in the bottom of the tank. That's why you're the expert John. I'll take a look.

I thought the AC comm needed the extra heat sink by mounting it to the frame. No?

The plastic covering the tank is to give it a baffle to improve the sound level and bass response.  The tank is the best place for the speaker, the sound has a clear path to the outside.  It's why a vast majority of diesels mount the speaker in the tank, it's the logical place to put it.

You do want to give the AC Commander metal to mount on.  Just run a 1" wide piece 1/16" aluminum strip across the top of the tank and mount it on the aluminum.  What I do is tap the chassis for 3mm screws since I have a ton of those from upgrades.  The little short 1/8" ones work perfect for mounting the aluminum strip, they don't stick down under the chassis far enough to cause issues.  If you do a bunch of MTH upgrades, you'll have a ton of those little 1/8" screws left over.

@Lionelski- thanks John. I find this stuff enjoyable.

OK- I may be crazy........

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The plastic covering the tank is to give it a baffle to improve the sound level and bass response.  The tank is the best place for the speaker, the sound has a clear path to the outside.  It's why a vast majority of diesels mount the speaker in the tank, it's the logical place to put it.

You do want to give the AC Commander metal to mount on.  Just run a 1" wide piece 1/16" aluminum strip across the top of the tank and mount it on the aluminum.  What I do is tap the chassis for 3mm screws since I have a ton of those from upgrades.  The little short 1/8" ones work perfect for mounting the aluminum strip, they don't stick down under the chassis far enough to cause issues.  If you do a bunch of MTH upgrades, you'll have a ton of those little 1/8" screws left over.

So now I need to jump into MTH upgrades??????

Sounds like a plan John. I'll pull the parts together.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

So now I need to jump into MTH upgrades??????

Well, I suppose you can buy similar screws...

@RSJB18 posted:

I pick option two.

@RSJB18 posted:

@Lionelski- thanks John. I find this stuff enjoyable.

OK- I may be crazy........

Was there ever any doubt???

WOW! Tough crowd......

@RSJB18 posted:

WOW! Tough crowd......

You had to see that coming after your comment.

@RSJB18 posted:

Today I got the capacitors on the motors and AC comm board installed and tested. So far so good. More to come.

Bob

Bob, I must have watched your video a dozen times now. I just love watching the Pullmor motor armatures spin up, the solid acceleration, the unwavering track that just looks rock solid, and the sound of wheels rolling smoothly on rails. I'd almost rather watch them run without their shells on

George

Bob, with the AC commander, a Pulmore dual-motor engine should have pretty good control, even decent low speed performance.  Once I added the second motor and swapped out the old LCRU for an AC Commander, I was quite impressed with the consistent low speed performance of the engine.  I shot this a while, but I was able to even get lower speed consistency.  I was planning on swapping out the motors for DC motors, but after I dropped the second AC motor in, I decided it ran well enough not to spent the time and money for the change.

I installed an ERR AC Commander kit, with Rail sounds in a coal car, I think it is 608805.  Now I just need to modify the engine to connect to it. 

John- I had considered swapping the pullmor's for can motors but the added expense made this project a bit over the top. It looks like these had very little runtime based on the condition of the brushes. I didn't program the board yet, the test run was in factory default settings. I'm sure I can get it running better once I play with the momentum and speed settings.

@TB440- looks like you got the hard part done. Good work.

George- Thanks. I'm impressed with how well these motors run too. I agree that the spinning armatures look cool. Can't beat the sound either.

Bob

Make sure the AC Commander is in 100 speed step mode. You'll get decently smooth starts for an AC motor locomotive. Here's a set of 2343 F3s I added an AC Commander to:

I've got the same blue & yellow Santa Fe freight F3s in ABBA (I've had them since I was a kid in the 90s). I installed an AC Commander, Electrocoupler, and cab interior in the powered F3A, a LCRX in the RSII F3B to get command control of the sounds, and a LCRX, Electrocoupler, and cab interior in the non-powered F3A to get directional lighting and coupler control. I didn't want to add tethers between the units so I used the extra electronic components. I'll try and take a video of it later today. 

That's a nice set Lou.

So I re-shuffled the boards and speaker as John had suggested. Looks like everything will fit (was there any doubt when the expert offers advice?) . I need to make up some brackets to hold the AC Comm board and it should be good to go. The 9v battery will fit behind the rear motor.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

The 9v battery will fit behind the rear motor.

I'm shocked you're not using the YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement (RS-Lite), battery indeed!

After all, I have to get something out of this exchange.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm shocked you're not using the YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement (RS-Lite), battery indeed!

After all, I have to get something out of this exchange.

Yes of course. I think I still have one on the shelf. If not I know who to call......

I decided to use this Blue Streak engine.  I used the chuff switch inside the engine, originally used for the Mighty sound of steam. 

I fabricated the bracket for the AC commander board last night and did a test fit of everything. We are good to go. While I had everything together I did a test of the sound board and all  functions are working.

Bob

Bob, that is impressive. I wouldn’t know where to start on such an undertaking.

Here ya go. I've had an ABBA set of these Santa Fe freight F3s since I was a kid in the late 90s. A couple years ago I finally upgraded them to TMCC. ERR AC Commander in the powered A unit, LCRX in the RailSounds II B unit to give it TMCC control, LCRX in the non-powered A unit for lighting and coupler control. Added cab interiors and electro-couplers to the nose of each A unit as well.

Lou- that set looks great. My layout barely fits the AA as is.

Jay- thanks again. I like to dig into projects like this.

Bob

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

Bob, that is impressive. I wouldn’t know where to start on such an undertaking.

One step at a time Jay, pretty soon you have it all working.

Nice job, Bob!  Yours is great too, Lou!

I have 2 MTH ProtoSound (PS1 if you will) that I had thought of upgrading to PS3, having already done one such upgrade.  However with the lack of MTH upgrade kits, I’m thinking of going with ERR since I have a TMCC controller also.  One is an AA set, with one unpowered unit, the other is an ABA set with two powered A units.  Yes, the ABA set is really too long for my layout that is a little larger than Bob’s.

It might be a good idea to start buying enough of everything needed for both upgrades.  I’ll have to get a list together, and your discussion helps with that, Bob!  Thank you for the documentation here.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Nice job, Bob!  Yours is great too, Lou!

I have 2 MTH ProtoSound (PS1 if you will) that I had thought of upgrading to PS3, having already done one such upgrade.  However with the lack of MTH upgrade kits, I’m thinking of going with ERR since I have a TMCC controller also.  One is an AA set, with one unpowered unit, the other is an ABA set with two powered A units.  Yes, the ABA set is really too long for my layout that is a little larger than Bob’s.

It might be a good idea to start buying enough of everything needed for both upgrades.  I’ll have to get a list together, and your discussion helps with that, Bob!  Thank you for the documentation here.

Mark- I'm sure John will chime in but from what I understand, it's better to wait for the PS 3 kits on MTH engines. I believe there are enough differences between the two that waiting is better. Remember, it says "newbie" in my thread title for a reason. I think the EC's would need to be changed at a minimum, maybe smoke units too?

I have a few PS-1's that I want to do also but they will wait until the kits are available again (we hope).

The easier part is mostly done on this one, now to tackle the lighting and tether.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Mark- I'm sure John will chime in but from what I understand, it's better to wait for the PS 3 kits on MTH engines. I believe there are enough differences between the two that waiting is better. Remember, it says "newbie" in my thread title for a reason. I think the EC's would need to be changed at a minimum, maybe smoke units too?

I have a few PS-1's that I want to do also but they will wait until the kits are available again (we hope).

The easier part is mostly done on this one, now to tackle the lighting and tether.

Bob

Honestly with either a PS3 or ERR upgrade all the wiring and electronics are being removed from the locomotive, so with either one you're starting from the same place. I've installed an ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds Commander in a MTH PS1 AS-616 and it works great. So realistically you can go either way.

Actually, there is no special hurdle to upgrading MTH locomotives to TMCC or PS/3, and the labor is pretty much the same, and the price isn't all that different.  In truth, an A-A or A-B-A with two powered will probably be cheaper with TMCC as you can run four motors with the Cruise Commander or Cruise Commander M if you do a small mod and give the electronics a tethered bridge.  For a PS/3 upgrade of the A-A or A-B-A with two powered units, you have to use two upgrade kits.

Thank you, Bob, Lou, and John!

I was aware you had to put a complete PS3 upgrade kit in each powered engine and run them as a 'lashup'.  What I didn't know was that you don't need a second ERR for the second powered unit if you go that route.  I signed up to be notified when PS3 kits are available, but I'm sure they will get snatched up by someone if I don't respond.  I'm thinking this would be a project for next winter so there isn't a hurry.  I'm able to make a simple bracket for the board like you did, Bob.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I was aware you had to put a complete PS3 upgrade kit in each powered engine and run them as a 'lashup'.  What I didn't know was that you don't need a second ERR for the second powered unit if you go that route.

For ERR, you can use a tether between the units and drive the second powered unit motors in parallel with the lead unit.  As I said, you do need to provide heatsinking for the Cruise Commander bridge rectifier, that's the part that's marginal with four motors if it doesn't have a heatsink.

Here's a Cruise Commander that I modified with the tethered bridge.  The bridge gets bolted to the chassis with some heatsink compound to give it greater power handling capability.  Although it's an 8 amp bridge, that's only if it has a proper heatsink, in free air like it is on the stock Cruise Commander, it's only good for a fraction of that current.

The failure mode without the tethered bridge is somewhat obscure as it's actually the driver FET's that fail.  However, this is due to the overloaded bridge having more leakage current, that's what actually kills the FET's.

Thank you, John.  That makes sense.

I've been busy with everything but trains lately. I finally made some progress over the weekend. I've been testing the lighting with the two-color LEDs for the markers and can't get it to work. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but I decided to move forward without them for now. I can always add them in later.

I started with the number board lights. They look best mounted below the board shining up into the plastic. These are made of clear plastic and with the LED right behind, it looks like a headlight. I wrapped the LED with shrink wrap to limit the spill. Next I installed the headlight. I super glued a flat top LED to the back of the lens. Works well, and again added shrink wrap for spill.

The front electro-coupler is wired and tested.

I'm making plugs for all of the shell wiring so it can be completely removed for service. I also ordered cab interiors from Lionel and will add a cab light and figures (if I can find some).

Finally, I plugged in the speaker and GRJ's YLB battery on the RS board.  Once the lighting is done I can give it a road test. Then it's on to the trailing unit and figuring out the harness between both locos.

Bob

If you're lighting them from traditional TMCC outputs, you need common anode dual-color LED's to make it work, the more common type are common cathode, those won't work.

Here's a "generic" diesel configuration with bi-color markers front and rear and dual headlights.  Obviously, you can leave out one of the headlight LED's for a single headlight configuration.  The .01uf caps are only required for plain TMCC, the ERR boards already include these.  Note the single diode for reverse voltage protection for all the LED's in the configuration.

Click on graphic to expand.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you're lighting them from traditional TMCC outputs, you need common anode dual-color LED's to make it work, the more common type are common cathode, those won't work.

Here's a "generic" diesel configuration with bi-color markers front and rear and dual headlights.  Obviously, you can leave out one of the headlight LED's for a single headlight configuration.  The .01uf caps are only required for plain TMCC, the ERR boards already include these.  Note the single diode for reverse voltage protection for all the LED's in the configuration.

Click on graphic to expand.

I'm following your wiring to the letter John. The only thing I'm missing is the 1N4003 diode (ordered some today) for the ground connection but I don't think that's a major issue. I did buy common anode LED's as recommended. I can get the red to light with the headlight on, but not the green when it's off (I know that's backwards).

https://www.mouser.com/Product...amp;currencycode=USD

Also- on your YLB, what's the single red wire on the opposite end from the plug for?

Thanks

I'm not sure what to tell you.  I've wired a lot of engines with that wiring scheme, they work just fine.  The diode shouldn't affect the operation, only the longevity of the LED's.

The red wire on the YLB is how the YLB gets it's power, that's connected to the center rail power.

Note that the other color is wired to the reverse LED, so it has to be supplying power to light the opposite LED.

Took another stab at the bi-color LED's last night and I got them to work! I was using the resistors that John showed on his wiring diagram and couldn't get the green LED to light. So I swapped both for 220 ohm resistors and tried again. Presto! we have working bi-color lights!

John- I'm guessing that the LED's I bought are a different wattage/ voltage from what you use and they needed the lower resistance. I'm glad I figured it out. Now comes the tricky part, mounting them in the shell.

This is the headlight and green marker. The green is washed out by the white LED.

@RSJB18, thanks for editing the thread's title with the date; and, excellent photos.

Steve, if you wired it like my diagram, the different voltage of the LED's is not a problem, Each LED pair and each color has it's own resistor, so the operating voltage of the LED is never an issue.  I've wired lots of diesels with this identical setup, and they've worked fine.  The reason I don't use that low a resistor value for the markers is it makes the markers way to bright, at least IMO.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Steve, if you wired it like my diagram, the different voltage of the LED's is not a problem, Each LED pair and each color has it's own resistor, so the operating voltage of the LED is never an issue.  I've wired lots of diesels with this identical setup, and they've worked fine.  The reason I don't use that low a resistor value for the markers is it makes the markers way to bright, at least IMO.

I may play around with higher ratings again John. At least I got over the hump so now I can tweak it. I have cab interiors on order from Lionel so I won't install these until I see how the interior fits.

As always, thank for your help and advice.

Bob

Happy Monday- haven't posted an update for a while. Life does tend to get in the way sometimes, that and waiting for parts to ship and arrive.

I ordered F3 interiors and figures for the cabs. I got the lead unit done yesterday and added a LED for cab lighting that will be controlled by the smoke output on the Cab 1L. I didn't realize that the control stand was not included with the interior so I fabricated a crude one from some scrap styrene. A couple coats of paint and it's good to go.

A bit of surgery was required to get the figures down to the correct height.

Here's the wiring on the inside. The mounting holes in the top of the part made convenient holders for the wires from the LED.

After a stiff drink.......... I drilled the holes for the marker lights. I approached this shell differently. After looking at some photos of F3's I realized that the lights are flush in the curve of the nose, not pointing forward (the mistake I made on the other shell). I will thin out the back of the shell so the LED is close to the surface and I'm going to paint the trim silver to simulate a bezel/ trim ring around them.

Next step is to finish installing the markers and then tie in all the wiring.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Happy Monday- haven't posted an update for a while. Life does tend to get in the way sometimes, that and waiting for parts to ship and arrive.

I ordered F3 interiors and figures for the cabs. I got the lead unit done yesterday and added a LED for cab lighting that will be controlled by the smoke output on the Cab 1L. I didn't realize that the control stand was not included with the interior so I fabricated a crude one from some scrap styrene. A couple coats of paint and it's good to go.

A bit of surgery was required to get the figures down to the correct height.

Here's the wiring on the inside. The mounting holes in the top of the part made convenient holders for the wires from the LED.

After a stiff drink.......... I drilled the holes for the marker lights. I approached this shell differently. After looking at some photos of F3's I realized that the lights are flush in the curve of the nose, not pointing forward (the mistake I made on the other shell). I will thin out the back of the shell so the LED is close to the surface and I'm going to paint the trim silver to simulate a bezel/ trim ring around them.

Next step is to finish installing the markers and then tie in all the wiring.

Bob

Outstanding work, Bob.  It's coming along really nice.

Now that’s an impressive undertaking Bob, Wow. Your efforts, like those of so many others, are intimidating.

Bob, you're finding the detailing is the time consuming part of the job!   I spend much more time on those kinds of tasks for upgrades than the actual wiring.

@Strap Hanger @Tranquil Hollow RR @gunrunnerjohn

Thanks for the likes and comments.
You hit it on the head John- the wiring for the lighting is time consuming. Gives a new appreciation for what goes on in the factories.

I had a request to provide part numbers for the cab interior.

These are the Lionel parts

8134-025     cab interior LIMITED         
8205-014     engineer figure LIMITED

I got mine from Jeff at The Train Tender

The figures I used are from MTH

FIGURE / ENGINEER / SEATED / FOR STEAM & EARLY DIESELS
SKU: FI0000047

FIGURE / FIREMAN OR BRAKEMAN / SEATED / O GAUGE STEAM & EARLY DIESEL
SKU: FI0000049

It's looking quite good, Bob! 

Thank you for mentioning The Train Tender.  I was trying to remember that name to tell a friend who is starting into postwar Lionel.

John, I can see just what you mean about the detailing being the time consuming part.

@RSJB18 posted:

After a stiff drink..........

Bob

GREAT JOB  Bob.

Nicely organized and neatly done.

I have difficulty making my work look that good BEFORE  I have a " stiff drink "

@Dallas Joseph posted:

GREAT JOB  Bob.

Nicely organized and neatly done.

I have difficulty making my work look that good BEFORE  I have a " stiff drink "

Usually after a stiff drink my work looks... well... not so good.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Usually after a stiff drink my work looks... well... not so good.

I should mention that there is always a spot on my bench for the adult beverage of choice that day.....🥃🍷🍺

Excellent work Bob, you’re making steady progress.

Andy

@RSJB18, thank you for the part numbers and vendor information.  It takes time to supply the information in a post, but it is a great help and resource for folks like me who are following your project and plan to do much the same.  Again, thanks.

@Steamfan77 posted:

Excellent work Bob, you’re making steady progress.

Andy

@Pingman posted:

@RSJB18, thank you for the part numbers and vendor information.  It takes time to supply the information in a post, but it is a great help and resource for folks like me who are following your project and plan to do much the same.  Again, thanks.

Thanks Carl and Andy.

The marker lights are installed!!!!

Spent about an hour on the prep last night. I have a small round milling head bit for my Dremell which worked perfectly to thin out the back of the shell. As I removed material, I continually checked the front and made steady progress. Once I had the holes where I needed them to be, I painted the edge with some silver acrylic to simulate a bezel ring. I'm happy with how it came out.

Now I need to finish the wiring and put the engine together.

I added some foil tape over the number boards to stop the light spill.

I'm glad that part of the project is done.

Bob

That turned out great Bob. In fact, it looks like it was factory installed. Congratulations.

The interior, crew and marker lights came out great!

I like how it came out but not sure it's something I would tackle. You killed it

@RSJB18, thanks as always for the info and fine photos.

Question:  what resistor value have you settled on for the marker lights?

@RSJB18 posted:

The marker lights are installed!!!!

Spent about an hour on the prep last night. I have a small round milling head bit for my Dremell which worked perfectly to thin out the back of the shell. As I removed material, I continually checked the front and made steady progress. Once I had the holes where I needed them to be, I painted the edge with some silver acrylic to simulate a bezel ring. I'm happy with how it came out.

Now I need to finish the wiring and put the engine together.

I added some foil tape over the number boards to stop the light spill.

I'm glad that part of the project is done.

Bob

Bob, very clean looking wiring and the red/green marker lights are awesome! Your classification as newbie needs to be upgraded big time! We are all watching in suspense as your F3 project continues.

@Pingman posted:

@RSJB18, thanks as always for the info and fine photos.

Question:  what resistor value have you settled on for the marker lights?

Carl- Guess I should have mentioned that- I used a 220 ohm on the green and 470 ohm for the red. Both 1/4 watt.

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Bob, very clean looking wiring and the red/green marker lights are awesome! Your classification as newbie needs to be upgraded big time! We are all watching in suspense as your F3 project continues.

Scott- I will remain a newbie for a while more..... Having worked my way up in the electrical trade from helper to Licensed Master Electrician, I know that these things take time. Thanks

@RJ Shier @Tranquil Hollow RR- thank you both.

Bob

Bob, are you going to light the number boards as well?

BTW, Liquid Electrical Tape is perfect for blocking light bleed from the interior after installing lights.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bob, are you going to light the number boards as well?

BTW, Liquid Electrical Tape is perfect for blocking light bleed from the interior after installing lights.

Already done John. Yes- I need to get a bottle of LT.

I should get some liquid electrical tape.  I have never tried it.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I should get some liquid electrical tape.  I have never tried it.

It's OK for insulation, I sometimes use it in low-impact situations.  The real use I get from it is as a light blocker for lighting installs, it works great!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's OK for insulation, I sometimes use it in low-impact situations.  The real use I get from it is as a light blocker for lighting installs, it works great!

I see that HD carries it. Next trip a bottle will come home with me.

We used to use something similar for insulating cable splices at higher voltages but I don't think I'd put it anywhere near a plastic toy train shell......

Bob

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's OK for insulation, I sometimes use it in low-impact situations.  The real use I get from it is as a light blocker for lighting installs, it works great!

@gunrunnerjohn, what do you use to apply it as a light blocker for lighting installs?

@Pingman posted:

@gunrunnerjohn, what do you use to apply it as a light blocker for lighting installs?

A flat toothpick as a rule.  The brush in the can is useless for most applications, I just use that to stir the jar.

Bob, excellent work! The marker lights are sharp. This has been an outstanding project all around.

Andy

@Steamfan77 posted:

Bob, excellent work! The marker lights are sharp. This has been an outstanding project all around.

Andy

Thanks Andy. Going to be a busy weekend since we host Easter Sunday dinner. I hope to steal some time to work on it......time will tell.

Bob

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A flat toothpick as a rule.  The brush in the can is useless for most applications, I just use that to stir the jar.

Thanks for the tip.  I'd used this product long ago and knew the included brush was not for this application.  And since I'm going to be lighting some number boards on F-3s soon, the toothpick will be put to use.

I truly wonder what the big brush is used for?  You'd be painting a pretty wide swath with that sucker, you'd have to be serious about insulation to make that useful.   I keep lots of toothpicks handy as I use them to apply glue, occasionally lube, and of course, Liquid Tape.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I truly wonder what the big brush is used for?  You'd be painting a pretty wide swath with that sucker, you'd have to be serious about insulation to make that useful.   I keep lots of toothpicks handy as I use them to apply glue, occasionally lube, and of course, Liquid Tape.

Silver paint on marker light holes too.....😁😁

@RSJB18,

I’ve been following your thread with interest since I’m planning on doing similar upgrades to my newly acquired Santa Fe F3 Warbonnet. I just got the bad news from Jeff at Train Tender that he no longer has the cab interior part number you mentioned back on 4/11, and can’t get anymore. Further he doesn’t know anywhere else that has it. Super bummer for me but good for you!

@texgeekboy posted:

@RSJB18,

I’ve been following your thread with interest since I’m planning on doing similar upgrades to my newly acquired Santa Fe F3 Warbonnet. I just got the bad news from Jeff at Train Tender that he no longer has the cab interior part number you mentioned back on 4/11, and can’t get anymore. Further he doesn’t know anywhere else that has it. Super bummer for me but good for you!

Sorry to hear that, sounds like I got his last pair. Try Lionel, I found some by searching various F units with pullmor motors (assuming your set is the same).

Here's the engine I found when I started looking. Looks like they still have inventory. You need parts #10 & 13

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...Powered-2382-6-24571

They are out of stock on the engineer figures but the MTH figures worked just fine.

Happy hunting.

Bob

So I've been banging my head against the proverbial wall over an issue with the markers for weeks now. They are wired into the front and rear lighting outputs, and are supposed to toggle on and off to match forward/ reverse direction. They work fine on my bench but wouldn't when connected to the AC commander.
John provided a clear wiring diagram which I followed to no avail.

Well.....I finally figured it out! I had the wrong type of LED's . I was using common anode, when common cathode were required. The polarity from the board outputs are reversed (negative output) so the diode was doing what it should and not let the power pass through.

And this my friends is why I'm still a newbie!

Here's a short video of the test.

Now to take it all apart and swap the led's. At least I can finally move this project toward completion.

Bob

The good thing is, you won't soon forget this lesson!   Remember, TMCC = Positive Ground for lighting outputs.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The good thing is, you won't soon forget this lesson!   Remember, TMCC = Positive Ground for lighting outputs.

Yep- check another one off the list.

Probably an often-asked question, WHY DID LIONEL REVERSE THE POLARITY???????