MartyE posted:Check your math.
There is a report that cost of repairs could be $200 million!
Where does this money come from? That's almost $1M for every adult in the US.
Need to stop trying to do math when suffering from insomnia.
MartyE posted:Moonman posted:I witnessed something like this in 1994. The Susquehanna River flows from Pittsburgh, through Pennsy, Maryland.
Did you mean Harrisburg and points beyond?
LOL! A lot water came from somewhere upstream and made quite mess - much like this situation. Harrisburg it is.
George S posted:I'm glad they didn't take any risks and evacuated everyone. Lucky they had time. The evacuation order said "this is not a drill." Scary words. They are using Blackhawk helicopters to drop enormous bags of rocks into the sink hole and eroded area.
Only half joking here, but I hope they evacuated the trains out of Western Depot. I bought my 260e set from them. They have great products in stock.
I sincerely hope the dam holds and people are safe and property damage is minimal.
George
WD is getting out according to their web site.
Several years ago at least 5 inches or more of rain fell over much of the state of Montana. Thats a lot of water. The folks managing the dams on the Missouri River were maintaining a lot of water in the lakes due to persistent dry years. Now they can't react fast enough to the deluge. Huge releases were necessary and a lot of flooding occurred the rest of the summer downstream from the last Dam, Gavins Point, which is just above Yankton SD. Huge areas of land were affected in Iowa, Nebraska and Missouri before the river grew to the point where it could handle the massive amounts of water. Studies were done, a lot of fingers pointed, but in the end, the Corps was unable to predict the once in a lifetime event and ____ happens. Looks about the same in Oroville. The RR bridge and highway bridge are one and the same on two different levels across an arm of the Oroville lake. Anyone got pictures of that? Wonder what a full lake looks like.
Dominic Mazoch posted:George S posted:Only half joking here, but I hope they evacuated the trains out of Western Depot. I bought my 260e set from them. They have great products in stock.
George
WD is getting out according to their web site.
Good news!
That area surrounding the spillway/dam is dining room table flat. The water goes a loooonnnngggg way under those circumstances (Drought + Deluge + Flat Terrain + Compromised Spillway = Big potential for major flooding).
Paul
prrhorseshoecurve posted:So is this the dam project that bought the first six axle G.E. U25C's?
Yes, it was constructed with material hauled on the old Western Pacific main line (which was re-routed for the dam to be built). During construction, I recall that they had a big wreck - head-on if I remember correctly - and one of the U25C's had to have extensive repairs or replacement. Oro Dam Constructors operated the trains.
Moonman posted:The dam operators react late. Then, they find that about half of the control gates won't open because of ignored repairs through the years.
Complacency and lack of diligent maintenance procedures create the potential for a lot of damage when mother nature throws a curve. Those downstream of this dam better check their insurance policies and clear out. Everyone will point fingers elsewhere for responsibility and want to hold meetings to plan meetings to explain why there is no fault and ask Uncle Sam to pay for it. Cal-i-for-nia dreamin'...
Carl, the dam operators are at the bottom of the ladder in the chain of command(at least in the Corps Of Engineers). The decisions on when and how far to open dam gates are made far above their position. It's probably no different at Oroville.
I agree on the maintenance and repair problems. General maintenance and regular inspections are usually ongoing(in theory) at all these facilities. Major repair or replacement is a whole different story because now the $$$$ comes into play. When I started at the Corps, there was an approx 12-15 year cycle of heavy repair/rebuild or replacement on dam gates, lock gates and valve operating equipment. At the present time, there is no scheduled cycle. It's basically run it till it breaks, then we'll fix it. Over the past couple of years, the Ohio River has been closed several times near Pittsburgh due to major failures at one of the locks/dams. And it boils down to $$$$$. Even though Congress(and party lines have no difference here) may pass a bill that includes funding for repairs, once the actual business of dispersing the funds takes place behind closed doors, your particular project or repair funding(no matter what part of the country you're from) may end up with only a small % or no funds-and here comes the deferred/ignored repairs. I experienced this firsthand before I retired. I hope the situation at Oroville has the best possible outcome for the people downstream.
Nick
The bidding process has to be comepletely open, even to the point all events related to it are streamed on the net.
Moonman posted:I witnessed something like this in 1994. The Susquehanna River flows from Pittsburgh, through Pennsy, Maryland. There is a dam near the I-95 bridge that is for power generation in Conowingo, MD.
The dam operators and people below the dam become complacent with "normal" water flows. Below the dam the old river banks are encroached as well as historical flood areas past the old river banks.
In 1994, a record snow blizzard drops 3 ft. of snow on the entire area from Pittsburgh to Delaware. A week later, extreme warming and a record rainfall melts all of the snow at once and adds the rainfall to it.
Everything drains to the river and a giant rush of volume begins it's destruction heading downstream.
The dam operators react late. Then, they find that about half of the control gates won't open because of ignored repairs through the years.
The opening of the gates bring the trickle of the dammed river close it's historical normal levels.
The rush of the extreme volume from the storms from an entire region hits the dam and overflows it. This brings the area past the dam to a raging torrent that spreads as wide as historical flood plains levels.
Giant pieces of ice, buildings, cars, boats and anything else in the way is being carried along. Think Fukishima tsunami looking. I was watching from a VA hospital parking lot in Perryville, MD. The Army Corps of Engineers heed history and know where to build. The old B & O railroad bridge crosses there. It's used by Amtrak today.
My video is on old school hi-res VHS.
Complacency and lack of diligent maintenance procedures create the potential for a lot of damage when mother nature throws a curve. Those downstream of this dam better check their insurance policies and clear out. Everyone will point fingers elsewhere for responsibility and want to hold meetings to plan meetings to explain why there is no fault and ask Uncle Sam to pay for it. Cal-i-for-nia dreamin'...
Carl,
I don't know where you got your information from but it is mostly wrong or mis quoted. Number 1 the Susquehanna flows down from Scranton, not Pittsburgh.
The Conowingo Dam has never overflowed. The 2 most recent floods in the area you mention, 1973 and 1994 both occurred when all of the gates on the dam were opened due to the high water. Floods down river do not occur until they open more than 27 gates. Both 1973 and 1994 all of the gates, I believe the total is 37 or38, I can't remember which were open. 1973 flood was much worse than the 1994 was.
There is actually 4 bridges down river from the dam. First the I 95 bridge, then the old B&O bridge that is now used CXT, Then the route 40 bridge, and finally the old Pennsylvania swing bridge that is now used by Amtrak.
In 1973 there was flooding in Port Deposit, Harve de Grace, Perryville and Perry Point VA center.
To my knowledge there has never been a problem with the opening of the gates on the Conowingo Dam. There may have been times that they waited to late to open them.
Karl
Karl Reichenbach posted:Moonman posted:I witnessed something like this in 1994. The Susquehanna River flows from Pittsburgh, through Pennsy, Maryland. There is a dam near the I-95 bridge that is for power generation in Conowingo, MD.
The dam operators and people below the dam become complacent with "normal" water flows. Below the dam the old river banks are encroached as well as historical flood areas past the old river banks.
In 1994, a record snow blizzard drops 3 ft. of snow on the entire area from Pittsburgh to Delaware. A week later, extreme warming and a record rainfall melts all of the snow at once and adds the rainfall to it.
Everything drains to the river and a giant rush of volume begins it's destruction heading downstream.
The dam operators react late. Then, they find that about half of the control gates won't open because of ignored repairs through the years.
The opening of the gates bring the trickle of the dammed river close it's historical normal levels.
The rush of the extreme volume from the storms from an entire region hits the dam and overflows it. This brings the area past the dam to a raging torrent that spreads as wide as historical flood plains levels.
Giant pieces of ice, buildings, cars, boats and anything else in the way is being carried along. Think Fukishima tsunami looking. I was watching from a VA hospital parking lot in Perryville, MD. The Army Corps of Engineers heed history and know where to build. The old B & O railroad bridge crosses there. It's used by Amtrak today.
My video is on old school hi-res VHS.
Complacency and lack of diligent maintenance procedures create the potential for a lot of damage when mother nature throws a curve. Those downstream of this dam better check their insurance policies and clear out. Everyone will point fingers elsewhere for responsibility and want to hold meetings to plan meetings to explain why there is no fault and ask Uncle Sam to pay for it. Cal-i-for-nia dreamin'...
Carl,
I don't know where you got your information from but it is mostly wrong or mis quoted. Number 1 the Susquehanna flows down from Scranton, not Pittsburgh.
The Conowingo Dam has never overflowed. The 2 most recent floods in the area you mention, 1973 and 1994 both occurred when all of the gates on the dam were opened due to the high water. Floods down river do not occur until they open more than 27 gates. Both 1973 and 1994 all of the gates, I believe the total is 37 or38, I can't remember which were open. 1973 flood was much worse than the 1994 was.
There is actually 4 bridges down river from the dam. First the I 95 bridge, then the old B&O bridge that is now used CXT, Then the route 40 bridge, and finally the old Pennsylvania swing bridge that is now used by Amtrak.
In 1973 there was flooding in Port Deposit, Harve de Grace, Perryville and Perry Point VA center.
To my knowledge there has never been a problem with the opening of the gates on the Conowingo Dam. There may have been times that they waited to late to open them.
Karl
A few points about the Susquehanna... It runs very close to York (home of the big TCA show) on its way downstream from Harrisburg to Maryland. Also, before passing York, Three-Mile Island sits in the middle of the Susquehanna. You may remember that from another accident in the late 70's.
Dominic Mazoch posted:The bidding process has to be comepletely open, even to the point all events related to it are streamed on the net.
If you are referring to my post, I made no mention of a bidding process. The procedures that I referred to take place long before it comes down to soliciting bids for a project.
Nick
The blatant ignorance of how flood control in the US works is a bit mind boggling. The US Government (the taxpayers) took over responsibility for flood control as an indirect result of the Johnstown flood; the state of Pennsylvania cried too poor as they were unwilling to raise the taxes necessary to adequately take over responsibility and hold the [influential] private owners financial responsible. The US Government (the taxpayers) have been the managing checkbook behind all flood control projects in the US since. The vast majority of the projects and their [taxpayer funded] continuing expenses have been along the Ohio, Missouri and Mississippi Rivers. Oroville dam and the feather river flood control project has been owned by the US Government (the taxpayers) since it's inception following WWII.
So of course the taxpayers are on the hook to pay for all of this and to even entertain the possibility that is might be otherwise is just plain dumb.
Having said that the first way the the US government reduces expenditures is to cut recurring maintenance costs from the budgets. Anyone who has worked for any government agency for one or more budget cycles has seen this happen.
But that is not the case here. There was a flaw in the initial design and building of the dam to reduce costs. The emergency spillway was not even in the original project, it was just an earthen berm which they were forced to change to the concrete weir we have today that sits atop an earthwork to stop water from potentially overtopping the main dam. The Sierra Club and other environmental groups sued the US Government and the state of California in 2008 to force them to reinforce the earthwork and watercourse above and below the weir as they stated the earthwork foundation would begin fail as soon as water overflowed the weir and could result in the failure of the weir. The Government said it in court it was a statistical impossibility for the weir to fail and therefore not worth the $100M expense to remediate. The Government prevailed in court. Fast forward to today and the prediction of the plaintiffs in that case has indeed occurred precisely as they predicted it would (actually faster than they predicted).
So now the US Government (the taxpayers) is on the financial hook for everything; expected to end up over $200M.
Places I would never choose to live:
Anywhere below 50 feet elevation that is near an ocean.
Anywhere within a flood plane, natural or man-made.
Anywhere subject to tornados or earthquakes.
Anywhere near a volcano that's erupted in the last 10,000 years..
Death Valley, International Falls, Minnesota and the summit of Mt Washington.
Kent Loudon posted:Places I would never choose to live:
Anywhere below 50 feet elevation that is near an ocean.
Anywhere within a flood plane, natural or man-made.
Anywhere subject to tornados or earthquakes.
Anywhere near a volcano that's erupted in the last 10,000 years..
Death Valley, International Falls, Minnesota and the summit of Mt Washington.
Thought you lived in New Jersey. Apparently New Jersey has never been subjected to sever winter blizzards nor hurricanes?
I would never, ever live in NJ !!! Went to the beach but that was all.
jim pastorius posted:I would never, ever live in NJ !!! Went to the beach but that was all.
Totally agree. I was born and raised in NJ, and as soon as I graduated from high school, went off to college, and did NOT return, except to visit family members.
Kent Loudon posted:Places I would never choose to live:
Anywhere below 50 feet elevation that is near an ocean.
Anywhere within a flood plane, natural or man-made.
Anywhere subject to tornados or earthquakes.
Anywhere near a volcano that's erupted in the last 10,000 years..
Death Valley, International Falls, Minnesota and the summit of Mt Washington.
Hmm. That rules out pretty much everything but the Moon. When is liftoff?
Seriously, I live in IL. I can cross off most of your list, but there is almost nowhere in the US where tornados don't occur, except maybe on mountains, but most mountains are subject to earthquakes. We even have a fault line in southern IL.
I think this topic belongs on faceless book or tweeter. The train aspect of this conversation left the station many posts ago.
George S posted:but there is almost nowhere in the US where tornados don't occur, except maybe on mountains,
Well, you can scratch that one off too. A tornado hit Vesuvius, Va. in the Blue Ridge mountains a couple of decades ago!
