FIRE UP N&W 611?

Hey if it helps I would love to fire or run 611 for FREE!!

Jake,

Pick up a copy of Basic Steam Locomotive Maintenance. It's a wealth of knowledge that helped me out quite a bit.

Here it is on Amazon

Good Luck,

Mathew

Thanks for the link Matthew.  I'll look into it.

It's sounding like I'll start out as a volunteer apprentice in the roundhouse, then if all goes well they'll probably train me as a fireman (which I guess is a paying position)

It needs to be made clear, Dewey, even at this late date what the relationship was between Dove and Purdie, and, indeed, between Merriman, Dove and Purdie.

Bill Purdie was a shop man from the 1930s.  He knew what made the wheels go around, and what Southern steam should look, sound and feel like.

Walter Dove was an old-timer who got to be a General Road Foreman under the Peter Principle, according to folks who had known him from way back.  He appealed to David P. Morgan and, indeed, Graham Claytor because he presented the appearance of a competent engineer and could blow a mean whistle.  But one time I spent two nights on a detour duty being told Walter Dove tales by two Southern Road Foremen who had known him for years.

I've spent many a mile cutting coal for Walter Dove, and in his cab, and riding behind him.  He tended to beat the engine (work it too hard) when running slow and hook the engine up too high when he was running fast (one of Bill Purdie's favorite sayings was that the engine never pops when Walter is running)(I personally witnessed him run two main rod back ends hot from hooking up too high, one on Consolidation 722 and the other on a just overhauled 4501.  I had seen the results of a catastrophic failure on an N&W Y-6 from being handled - or mishandled - that way, and another one that would have met the same result if the engine had farther to run.)

Merriman thought Dove hung the moon, too, but at some point during my stay in Birmingham in the early 1970s Merriman finally tumbled.  He was going to take the 4501 on a trip and Purdie wasn't going to be along, and Merriman asked Purdie "what if he tears up my engine?"  Purdie told him, "bring it back to Birmingham and I'll fix it."

Dove's problem was that no one could tell him anything; with all the adulation he was getting, he felt that he was the final, utmost authority.

An interesting sidelight about all this is that the little Pacific, S&A 750, Bill felt was just about his own personal engine; he and his crew spent a lot of time with it and got it to be about as good as it ever could be.  And, somehow, he was able to keep Walter Dove from ever handling it.

I spent the Dove years of the early 1970s working in birmingham for another railroad, but I worked (either cutting coal or carrying water) on all the Southern excursions I could make; I worked on the 722, 750 and 4501 (the 630 was getting a new firebox and didn't run while I was in Birmingham, but I fired it a few years later), so I watched all this byplay as an interested bystander; it sure wasn't my place to try to tell Dove anything; I could only watch, listen and learn.

But Walter Dove goes down as an early Southern steam excursion hero; that's OK by me, but facts are facts.

My sympathies were with Bill Purdie, and still are.

EdKing

This engine sat in a park for years, rusted, vandalized, and spray painted. Volunteers worked years getting it to run again. It now runs every year. Anything can be done. Don

So, are there any 'succession plans' in place to nurture young interested steam engineers on the skills that those few older generation still have to secure the future of steam preservation in the US?

Hot Water has retired.

We are now in the era of Clear Stack Rikki.

The world changes, sometimes for the better. 

Ed King

As regards Walter Dove, I did not know him. I only know what was written and said about him in particular around Chattanooga by Merriman and in the "Steam Special" press at the time including comment by Claytor. I have no "facts" one way or another based on personal knowledge of Dove. It is obvious from what you say that you did not care for the man nor his steam practices and your assessment certainly doesn't bother me in the least.

I am glad to hear that you have a higher regard for Master Mechanic Bill Purdie whom I did not know personally either. But I did get to see him in action on occasion and along with others was photographed with him. I was a great admirer of his skills and solid contribution in maintaining the steam program. [our own Forum Engineer, Rich Melvin, commented once regarding the special assistance that Bill provided on the rehab of #765].

My employer was a major customer of the Southern Ry which serviced most of our 22 plants in N.C. and S.C. during most of the 20th century. I expect that the feedback that I learned from Southern folks was quite different from your assessment as a hands on employee riding the steam deck. Although we never discussed Dove or Purdie, I had numerous chats with Southern's Marvin Black, now your co-editor at TIES Magazine, and I was fortunate to interview W.H.Moore, retired Southern V.P., several times here in Greensboro.

Thanks for your reply.

Not completely!

That was awesome Ted! What locomotive was that? She even does a nice job quilling the whistle, fantastic!Running it so "matter of factly"like it was just a volkswagon convertable or somethin'. I can't wait to show that video to my 17 year old daughter when she gets home from school.

I"m sure I'll get one of these.....""

Rikki is definitely the "real deal". He dad has taught her very well, and that is the loggon Mike she is running in that video. Back in September 2101, her dad had arranged with Steve Lee for Rikki to ride the cab of UP 844 from Portland to The Dalles (eastbound up the Columbia River), for our first service stop and Engineer & Fireman change out (enroute to Pendleton, OR). Rikki was supposed to get off at The Dalles, as that was were her ride was picking her up.

While the Mechanical crew was greasing the rods, Steve Lee and I went up to continue the run to Pendleton. I say Rikki collecting her stuff, and inquired as to why she was leaving, and she said that this was the end of her "ride". I then said, "well that's good, because NOW your going to WORK! So go tell your ride to pick you up at the Hinkle Diesel Service Pit, as that's our next stop." I told her that I would fire just a bit to get out of The Dalles, and then she would fire the rest of the way to Hinkle Yard. I thought she would faint when I told her THAT.

Rikki did an excellent job firing, especially since we had a nice big train of UP executive passenger cars, and the track speed was 79MPH. I don't know how to "link" to it, but there is a GREAT Youtube video, taken by a friend of Rikki's, riding right beside us on the interstate highway, at speeds over 70MPH. 

 Good for her. Quite an achievement for a young person who is into steam and certainly encouraging for steam fans..

Bodes well for when Lindy Lou gets her hands on 1218...just you wait!

Rikki did an excellent job firing, especially since we had a nice big train of UP executive passenger cars, and the track speed was 79MPH. I don't know how to "link" to it, but there is a GREAT Youtube video, taken by a friend of Rikki's, riding right beside us on the interstate highway, at speeds over 70MPH.

Skip to 10:10 to see the Firemen change out.

Rikki is definitely the "real deal".

Lee Tested, McCormack approved! 

His name is spelled McCormack. He/we are Irish, NOT Scottish.

Thanks for finding and posting that video.

A VERY impressive young steam engineer! Hooray for MS. Rikki!

The next generation of steam people are here and will carry the torch well!

Man, that sucker is in a hard gallop.

He/we are Irish, NOT Scottish.

Error corrected.  I'm on my way to confession right now.  I hope the Polish Dominican understands the severity of my transgression. 

Not really. You should see 844 at 90!

I'm looking at the RPM of those drivers and rod action not at a speed indicator. That is a full gallop regardlesss of whose horses are running.

Which of today's railroads allow high speed steam specials such as UP 844's 90mph?

As I said earlier, not really a "full gallop". Your term "full gallop" for a UP 800 class, with 80" drive wheels would be 90 to 100 MPH, and they would have done that darned near ALL DAY, back in the steam days.

The UP double track main line from Council Bluffs to Ogden, is equipped with cab signals and associated auto train stop, so the FRA allowable passenger train speed should be in the neighborhood of 102 MPH. Personally, I have never been OVER 90 MPH on 844, however.  

EXCELLENT!  In the famous words of Ernest & Julio, "We appreciate your support.".

So Hot Water, your analogy regarding Driver size would be that Mules, Clydedales, Quarter Horses and Race Horses all have a different "full Gallop". I give up!

Try putting a Clydesdale in the Kentucky Derby!

H/W,

Throughout the video, what is causing the rear stack to exhaust intermintent darker plumes of smoke at regular intervals?

That is caused but the Worthington Feedwater System. Every time the boiler water pump strokes, it effects the draft from the change in the exhaust, which is taken off the base of the exhaust stand and thus affects the "exhaust pulse". Running the Boiler water pump easy like that, creates a "pulsing exhaust color" at the stack. SP 4449 does the same thing, but with only a single exhaust stack, the exhaust color with cycle from clear or hazy, to darker and then back to clear/hazy.

Never mind the horse analogies - that young woman has a future with steam! 

I am going to show that clip to my two grandaughters, ages 14 & 17.

While not 90mph..how about 80mph...ish

Ed, I personally do NOT know of ANY cases of SP GS Class locomotives exceeding 100MPH.

The UP 800 Class is quite a bit different. I have conversed MANY times with the retired General Road Foreman of Engines for the UP, who is obviously retired and living in the Kansas City area. Every time the UP stopped and displayed 844 or 3985 at KC Union Station, he would come down and shoot the breeze with Steve and I (I still can not remember his name, and I even worked with him back in 1964 with the DD35 deliveries).

He told me about some high speed test that the Test Dept. wanted to conduct after the end of WWII. An empty passenger train was assembled and an FEF-3 was assigned for numerous "runs" at 90, 95, 100, and 105 MPH. Apparently the tests went on for quite a number of days, so that different FEF-3 locomotives had to be rotated in and out, one locomotive being #844. During all the "test runs" he was at the throttle, since he was Road Foreman. On one of the last few runs, the Test Manager in the cab suggested that they see just how fast #844 would handle the train. He told me, fact to face, that when the speedometer went past the 120 mark, the Test Manager finally suggested that that was enough and asked that the brakes be applied so as to "Get down below 100!". He said that he was SURE that any of the FEF-3 class locomotives had more than 120MPH in them, and MANY Engineers had more than exceeded to 100/110 MPH speeds in regular passenger service, when having to "make up time". I sure as **** believe him!!!

Don't doubt it a bit, Hot.  Did he talk about the riding qualities?

I think those tests were some AAR braking tests; I think the PRR also participated in them but I know no other particulars.

I assume there was no crew discomfort that would have made anyone nervous about the ride - that's a key.

PRR guys have said they had T1s over 125, and there's no reason to doubt them, either.  I think it can be assumed that the Milwaukee F7 Hudsons got that fast (their  CP speed recorders straightlined up at the top, at the 120 mark).  An F7 supposedly was tested on PRR's test plant at Altoona and turned up 540 RPM and I don't doubt that, either.

It is unfortunate that we'll never know exactly how fast some engines would go.

But it is significant that Baldwin couldn't even counterbalance the ACL 80-inch drivered Northerns to run fast enough for their passenger service.

Thanks for sharing that story!

EdKing

Perhaps a good moment to retell the Milwaukee Road instructions for F7's in Hiawatha service  to slow to 90 mph for the curve south of Rondout!

        Was in North LaCrosse, WI about some 12-13 years ago, after following the 261 up from Savanna, when encountered a gentleman who said he was a retired Burlington engineer. He said he had a Burlington S4a 4-6-4 (roller bearing rods) on a Masonic Lodge Special (he was a member) up to 115 mph. Said he was showing off for his lodge members!  True?? Who knows, but I choose to believe it!

Anyway, back to the 611. I donated to the feasibility study within an hour of the announcement. A medium amount... because as someone mentioned, I'm also hoping that donations are also being used to show NS public interest.

If it does come about, I'll donate again.

BTW, there are other Engineer Rikki videos on YouTube. She's a danged decent loco driver.

On their facebook page they say the response and donations are doing great....keep it up everyone.

Video filmed at the announcement....

This is a video of the 611 being pulled out yesterday as posted on the Roanoke NRHS Mechanical Department's facebook page.

I am optimistic that the 611 will run again in my lifetime, and I donated some money to help make it happen. To the pessimists, pessimism gets nothing done and it is not the American way. 

Boomer,

Thanks for sharing the video of moving the 611. Two things in the video got my attention.

Two diesel units is a lot of diesel power to move the 611. Why so much power? Why was the rpm of the diesel engines hunting?

Yep...he need a "Notch 1.5" for this move. Notch 1 wasn't enough and Notch 2 was too much.