Future of O Scale National Meets

Cost! I think that the future of meets is the smaller, regional meet. The Strasburg meet is a good example. Just to walk in the door at Denver would have been more than $1000.00 for me; Strasburg, far less than $100.00.

With travel being what it is today, regional meets are good or limit your national conventions to rotating between three or four sites with dense population centers within driving distance that can push attendance up - Northeast (New York, Boston, Atlantic City, Philly, etc.); Midwest - Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc.); West Coast - LA, San Francisco, Las Vegas, etc.; South - (Dallas, Atlanta, etc.).

Back in 2010(?), I attended the O Scale National in Baltimore (Towson).  As a 3-railer, it was an eye-opening introduction to more and varied scale buildings and details and a very welcome breath of fresh air.  I lived in Central PA at the time, so this was not a huge expenditure for me.  From that point until my relocation back to Western PA, I attended nearly every O Scale meet held at Strasburg.

Cost is certainly a factor in the equation, but the original poster is correct.  O Scale meets have a different flavor ("look and feel") to the typical 3-rail outing or toy train gathering.

Regional might be the way to go.

George

I used to attend the Nat'l, March Meet, and Indy (now defunct...) meets until costs spiraled out of control.  Travel and hotel costs are a very real impediment for attendees. Yes, the social aspect....that costs more than $1k to participate in......buying & selling....if I can't drive there, I'm not selling, and buying....very, very, very little that I need/want until I manage to sell a car load or 2.

Yes, regional meets - OSC(?) needs to get itself together and organize a network of regional meets that you might realistically travel to and back in a day from lots of areas.  Maybe partner with NMRA regions (not Nat'l!!!) to get better control of all costs.

@PRRMP54 posted:

Cost! I think that the future of meets is the smaller, regional meet. The Strasburg meet is a good example. Just to walk in the door at Denver would have been more than $1000.00 for me; Strasburg, far less than $100.00.

I live in western Iowa, how can I go that far for a show that only lasts for a few hours. I look forward to the bigger shows. I miss the Indy show in September even though it is a 12 hour drive from home. I will go to Chicago as long as I can.

Dick

I live in Tucson, AZ and I used to go to the March Meet regularly, in part because it was an excuse to ride Amtrak to Chicago. I've only been to a couple of Nationals, but I always enjoyed March Meet the best. With Covid and the increasingly degraded service on Amtrak sleeping cars and diners, I have just stopped going to O scale events by train, and flying or driving to SF for Oscale West no longer seems worth the effort and expense.

National meets are fine but given the tremendous increased costs to travel  - everything for, flights to rental cars to hotels seems to be 25% or so more than just a few years ago - you might rotate it regionally so people can drive.  If you find a location that seems to have better attendance, that is a useful data point if you want to possibly select that site as a more permanent choice.  Good luck and hope the insights on the thread are useful.

@CBQer posted:

I live in western Iowa, how can I go that far for a show that only lasts for a few hours. I look forward to the bigger shows. I miss the Indy show in September even though it is a 12 hour drive from home. I will go to Chicago as long as I can.

Dick

Well, let me flip that for you - Chicago is well better than a 12 hour drive for me and hotels rooms and tolls make that over a $1K cost to attend.

So, you managed to miss my point. A regional show in your area (Chicago is just a large regional show...) is what's needed - this is what OSC (OSK or whatever their name is today...) should be organizing and growing.  Something that's realistically a day trip.  I think that there's a market for a network of such shows.  Thus, the Indy show might be replaced with a smaller 1 day event; there's Cleveland as a 1+ day event, and then there's Strasburg and now Harrisburg. Those make a string of meets that if coordinated provide meets from NY to IL.  BTW, people come from further away than Iowa to Strasburg; amazes me....

Time off work is a major issue for me. I currently only get 10 days for the year. 3 of those are reserved for the county fair. Then I need 2 for visiting my brother. Now I have 5 left to divvy up for getting sick and any other vacation. Then you throw in the cost and it's just tough. I think it will get easier for me in the future as student loans are paid off and I ask-for/threaten-to-quit-unless-I-get more time off work.

I just hope meets can survive until I'm able to attend more often. The social aspect is appealing. I love the NMRA monthly meets because everybody is friendly and it's a good time!

@BillYo414 posted:

Time off work is a major issue for me. I currently only get 10 days for the year. 3 of those are reserved for the county fair. Then I need 2 for visiting my brother. Now I have 5 left to divvy up for getting sick and any other vacation. Then you throw in the cost and it's just tough. I think it will get easier for me in the future as student loans are paid off and I ask-for/threaten-to-quit-unless-I-get more time off work.

That pretty much sucks time-wise. But then you are at that intersection of time, funds, career, family.

I just hope meets can survive until I'm able to attend more often. The social aspect is appealing. I love the NMRA monthly meets because everybody is friendly and it's a good time!

Good for you at least getting out the NMRA meets.

@Brad Kowal posted:

Sometime between the 1990's and the now, attendance has dropped dramatically. Attendance was once comparable to the March Meet in Chicago, but now it's nothing close.

If we are to continue with the National Meets, we need a tighter partnerships with those running the meet, those attending as well as the vendors. Those attending need guarantees there will be enough vendors and the vendors need guarantees that there will be 300-600 or more in attendance to make any trip worthwhile.

I don't know if it's possible at this particular moment in time. I'm asking the question(s) to try to find out for those who might be interested in running the next National if there is one.

OSC (OSK?) should be all over that and it's already time (past time...) to have a venue secured for 2024.  That really needs doing a year in advance along with advance advertising.

@mwb posted:

That pretty much sucks time-wise. But then you are at that intersection of time, funds, career, family.

Good for you at least getting out the NMRA meets.

It is a tricky intersection. And nobody told me it would happen haha But the paid time off allegedly improves next year. We'll see.

The NMRA meetings are outstanding and are my main motivation for going to bigger meets. It's easy to strike up conversation and that's what I like. I'm fortunate to have friends that admire the hobby and will run trains if I put a controller in their hand...but it's not the same as talking with someone else who has a layout and whatnot. 

I attend Strasburg and Harrisburg.  They are a 2 - 3 hour drive for me ftom NJ, economical, and in/out in one day.

@mwb posted:

Those guarantees have to originate with the those running the meets; it's their responsibility to put together everything that makes it compelling to attend.

But who want's 100% of the responsibility to entertain 300-1000 people, with $40-$60K of liability?  Without a community effort of shared responsibility it cannot happen beyond 2023 and most likely will not.

@Brad Kowal posted:

But who want's 100% of the responsibility to entertain 300-1000 people, with $40-$60K of liability?  Without a community effort of shared responsibility it cannot happen beyond 2023 and most likely will not.

Well, if you have 1000 people, then you have a good problem!  But the reality right now is that you might be happy to get 300.  That's 3 times what was in Denver.

NMRA regions do their conventions every year with that ballpark number of attendees.  Maybe you need to talk to some of them and partner with them on how to run a convention. Given that they do one every year, they have the sort of experience that seems to be needed at every level.

BTW, the 2018 O Scale convention was co-sponsored by the MER region of the NMRA and that got the convention insurance coverage under their umbrella, and then folks from the region showed up to help out as well. Maybe trying to go it alone is a dead end.  Maybe making a few deals with a few regions to rotate through needs to be pursued.

@mwb posted:

Well, if you have 1000 people, then you have a good problem!  But the reality right now is that you might be happy to get 300.  That's 3 times what was in Denver.

NMRA regions do their conventions every year with that ballpark number of attendees.  Maybe you need to talk to some of them and partner with them on how to run a convention. Given that they do one every year, they have the sort of experience that seems to be needed at every level.

BTW, the 2018 O Scale convention was co-sponsored by the MER region of the NMRA and that got the convention insurance coverage under their umbrella, and then folks from the region showed up to help out as well. Maybe trying to go it alone is a dead end.  Maybe making a few deals with a few regions to rotate through needs to be pursued.

In 2022, the midwest region of NMRA partnered with RPM (Railroad Prototype Modelers) for a regional convention called Indy Junction 2022.  Based on my personal observation, comments from others in NMRA, and posts by members of RPM, it was a success.  Combining forces to share costs, take advantage of the experience of others, and increasing the pool of potential volunteers seems like a win for everyone.  IMO, any small compromises are outweighed by the benefits. 

FYI:  There will be an exclusive O scale room at the Hendricks County Train Show in Danville, Indiana on Saturday November 18, 2023.  Show time: 10 AM to 3 PM. 

@John C. posted:

FYI:  There will be an exclusive O scale room at the Hendricks County Train Show in Danville, Indiana on Saturday November 18, 2023.  Show time: 10 AM to 3 PM.

Thanks for telling everyone ---- Everything O scale can benefit from more advertising!!!

@mwb posted:

Well, if you have 1000 people, then you have a good problem!  But the reality right now is that you might be happy to get 300.  That's 3 times what was in Denver.

NMRA regions do their conventions every year with that ballpark number of attendees.  Maybe you need to talk to some of them and partner with them on how to run a convention. Given that they do one every year, they have the sort of experience that seems to be needed at every level.

BTW, the 2018 O Scale convention was co-sponsored by the MER region of the NMRA and that got the convention insurance coverage under their umbrella, and then folks from the region showed up to help out as well. Maybe trying to go it alone is a dead end.  Maybe making a few deals with a few regions to rotate through needs to be pursued.

Whether it's 100 or 1000 people attending, moving forward we cannot expect a small group of people to bear the burden of the liability while turning our nose and stating it's all on them.  It's not going to work. 

FWIW: The break even point for a well run meet is 600 people (at a minimum). 300 won't do it anymore.  It'll be up to somebody else to explain how the Denver attendance worked out.

@Brad Kowal posted:

Whether it's 100 or 1000 people attending, moving forward we cannot expect a small group of people to bear the burden of the liability while turning our nose and stating it's all on them.  It's not going to work.

The NMRA regions put their conventions on with just that - a small core group -  every year across the country.  As I stated previously, maybe partnering with some of them would be a viable option.

But, if you want me to buy in then I'm expecting a full, complete, and direct partnership at every level and not just as a passive attendee.  I'd be treating this like any other venture capital investment with the same expectations that I usually put into place.

FWIW: The break even point for a well run meet is 600 people (at a minimum). 300 won't do it anymore.  It'll be up to somebody else to explain how the Denver attendance worked out.

Well, then this is probably DOA going forward with that statement, so this entire thread is a total waste of time.

But, I'm still scratching my head though how the NMRA regions all across the country put their conventions on not having to meet anywhere near those numbers.  Something is not adding up.

Might take a look at this one:  https://www.mer2023.org/registration.html  38 clinics, 2 live steam excursions, and 8 layouts to visit and I think Ops sessions, too, over 3 days.

There was another region convention that included an excursion on the Grande Canyon RR.....

@mwb posted:

The NMRA regions put their conventions on with just that - a small core group -  every year across the country.  As I stated previously, maybe partnering with some of them would be a viable option.

But, if you want me to buy in then I'm expecting a full, complete, and direct partnership at every level and not just as a passive attendee.  I'd be treating this like any other venture capital investment with the same expectations that I usually put into place.

Well, then this is probably DOA going forward with that statement, so this entire thread is a total waste of time.

But, I'm still scratching my head though how the NMRA regions all across the country put their conventions on not having to meet anywhere near those numbers.  Something is not adding up.

Might take a look at this one:  https://www.mer2023.org/registration.html  38 clinics, 2 live steam excursions, and 8 layouts to visit and I think Ops sessions, too, over 3 days.

There was another region convention that included an excursion on the Grande Canyon RR.....

Pre-payment of admissions and tables go a long way at keeping cost down.  Any convoluted business structure will increase costs significantly.  For the March Meet, if the committee is expected to front 100% of the cost, we need a revenue increase of 30%.  If those pre-paying $30 for admission expect a piece of the "action", the increase will be somewhere between here and there and the administration will be next to impossible.  The meetings that would need to be held and the documentation that would have to be provided along with the paid staff required to do same, would make it nearly impossible.

NMRA has little to no advertising cost.  For the March Meet, our advertising costs range between $5,000 to $10,000 annually. and at that we cannot afford an ad in the NMRA magazine. The NMRA meets are also staffed by volunteers.  They have a large enough pool of people to draw from, so if somebody doesn't show up, they have someone else to fill in.  Most of us running the March Meet are Railroad guys.  We spend most of our lives on a locomotive, so we haven't had the time over the years to build massive amounts of relationships to be able to have a large pool of people knocking each other out in order to volunteer.

Being honest, we probably weren't the best people to run a meet, but we're doing it anyway and are working to become the best.  Had somebody else.....anybody else stepped up, we wouldn't be running it, although they would be facing nearly all the hurdles we face and jump over.

Partnering with the NMRA has been discussed extensively and has been outright rejected by the O Scale 2-Rail Community.  I understand both sides of the argument, so I'm not about to drag anyone through the mud, but I think it's still something that needs to be considered.  How we shift over there and or proceed any other way is not as easy as some might think.  If it was, there wouldn't be much discussion on the subject.

@Brad Kowal posted:

NMRA has little to no advertising cost.  For the March Meet, our advertising costs range between $5,000 to $10,000 annually. and at that we cannot afford an ad in the NMRA magazine.

And that's why you get an NMRA co-sponsor ---  That advertising cost goes away.  You can also get insurance coverage - that cost goes away.  There's a stack of paperwork, and it was free in 2018; might cost $100 now.

And other print advertising has been available for free and complete ignored.

Partnering with the NMRA has been discussed extensively and has been outright rejected by the O Scale 2-Rail Community.

That's actually not a true statement - the 2018 convention was co-sponsored by a region. Regions have a lot more flexibility and latitude.  You might note that the National Narrow Gauge convention has been co-sponsored by either a region of division of the NMRA.

Now partnering with the NMRA Nat'l org is completely problematic (nicest word I can use here...)

@mwb posted:

And that's why you get an NMRA co-sponsor ---  That advertising cost goes away.  You can also get insurance coverage - that cost goes away.  There's a stack of paperwork, and it was free in 2018; might cost $100 now.

And other print advertising has been available for free and complete ignored.

That's actually not a true statement - the 2018 convention was co-sponsored by a region. Regions have a lot more flexibility and latitude.  You might note that the National Narrow Gauge convention has been co-sponsored by either a region of division of the NMRA.

Now partnering with the NMRA Nat'l org is completely problematic (nicest word I can use here...)

Yes, the RPM-East meet held this past March was a partnership with our division (MCR Division 2) for exactly the reasons cited - insurance, ready group of volunteers, and source of clinics.  I was pretty stoked about it;  not too many 3-railers get asked to talk at an RPM event.  

George

The Indianapolis Meet is still viable if we can affordable space.  An alternative was presented to join forces with the NMRA last year and it was outright rejected by both the dealers and the attendees.  You can tell me that's untrue as many times as you want, but then you also have to explain why it didn't happen then.

@mwb posted:

And that's why you get an NMRA co-sponsor ---  That advertising cost goes away.  You can also get insurance coverage - that cost goes away.  There's a stack of paperwork, and it was free in 2018; might cost $100 now.

And other print advertising has been available for free and complete ignored.

That's actually not a true statement - the 2018 convention was co-sponsored by a region. Regions have a lot more flexibility and latitude.  You might note that the National Narrow Gauge convention has been co-sponsored by either a region of division of the NMRA.

Now partnering with the NMRA Nat'l org is completely problematic (nicest word I can use here...)

A lot of incorrect information is passed around.  The Denver Meet brought in the NMRA.  They were provided with the NMRA insurance, but it wasn't free.  They had to pay the same rate they would've paid if same was obtained from an independent agent.  The Denver Meet also had to pay for their own advertising.

If the March Meet was co-sponsored with the NMRA, are you saying they'll pay for our advertising in all the Magazines as well as our Post Office mailed flyers?  That's what it takes to reach the O Scalers who attend the March Meet. 

If us O Scalers started attending the NMRA meets en mass, we as an O Scale Community wouldn't have to worry about any of these issues.  For a variety of reasons, O Scalers don't embrace that approach, at least at the moment.

I live in NJ.  For me thinking of a location for getting good attendance at a larger national type show, I imagine CT, NYC, NJ, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, central and eastern PA.  Pick a place that all of the O scale modellers in these places can drive to and get back in one long day.  Allentown or Easton, PA?

@Brad Kowal posted:

The Indianapolis Meet is still viable if we can affordable space.  An alternative was presented to join forces with the NMRA last year and it was outright rejected by both the dealers and the attendees.  You can tell me that's untrue as many times as you want, but then you also have to explain why it didn't happen then.

A lot of incorrect information is passed around.  The Denver Meet brought in the NMRA.  They were provided with the NMRA insurance, but it wasn't free.  They had to pay the same rate they would've paid if same was obtained from an independent agent.  The Denver Meet also had to pay for their own advertising.

If the March Meet was co-sponsored with the NMRA, are you saying they'll pay for our advertising in all the Magazines as well as our Post Office mailed flyers?  That's what it takes to reach the O Scalers who attend the March Meet.

If us O Scalers started attending the NMRA meets en mass, we as an O Scale Community wouldn't have to worry about any of these issues.  For a variety of reasons, O Scalers don't embrace that approach, at least at the moment.

Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's apparent that there are some major disagreements between O scalers and NMRA.  IMO, what is done in HO isn't much different than O except for size (obviously).  There are many 3-railers on this forum whose modeling skills take a back seat to nobody - Norm Charbonneau and Dave Minarik immediately come to mind.  In addition, I know of at least two 3-railers who have achieved MMR status.

Personally, I appreciate the many ways in which people approach the train hobby and feel that there is always something to be learned from others.  I also know someone who is active in O - he always has brochures on his table at NMRA meets - unfortunately I won't be able to ask him about this issue directly for at least a couple of months.  Wondering if someone could expand on the issues which are keeping these groups apart.   

I am a NMRA member and an O gauge modeler (primarily 3-rail). I am also active in 2ROS and a  O Scale Central (OSC) director.  The NMRA welcomes all modelers in all scales.  Unfortunately, many 2ROS modelers don't join the NMRA.  Their reason:  "The NMRA doesn't have any 2ROS activities at its events."

This is a chicken and egg issue.  The NMRA doesn't have 2ROS activities because 2ROS members are few and far between.   2ROS modelers don't join because there aren't any activities.

The solution is for 2ROS modelers to join and participate in NMRA events.  

There is one 2ROS group that is very well represented and active in the NMRA.  These are the narrow gauge folks who model in various O scale gauges (On30, On3, etc.).  You can see an O scale narrow gauge modular display at nearly every NMRA train show.  

The bottom line that people who want to see 2ROS activities at NMRA events need to join and become active in the NMRA.  NH Joe

I agree with a lot of what Brad wrote.  I have found nothing exclusionary about the NMRA towards O Scale.

But oddly enough, you need to participate and contribute.

I have hosted my layout for numerous NMRA meets. I have given talks to several NMRA events. I have been solicited to give clinics by the local NMRA chapter. And I even had a photo of a scene from my layout in the NMRA calendar. The cover no less.

Throughout these activities I have never heard anyone who models in the other scales say anything negative about 2 rail O scale. In fact, one local NMRA officer, who models in HO, flat out told me “We need more O Scale representation in our newsletter and clinics”

@New Haven Joe posted:

I am a NMRA member and an O gauge modeler (primarily 3-rail). I am also active in 2ROS and a  O Scale Central (OSC) director.  The NMRA welcomes all modelers in all scales.  Unfortunately, many 2ROS modelers don't join the NMRA.  Their reason:  "The NMRA doesn't have any 2ROS activities at its events."

Hmmmmm....like what?  As far as I can tell the vast majority of "activities" at NMRA meets are not scale specific.  Last local one I attended had 5 clinics; 2 very good ones on weathering rolling stock, one of layout detailing, one on building a vertical boiler locomotive, and one of rebuilding/restoring rolling stock (O Scale, in fact).

Perhaps the "activities" that the NMRA does not have is a buy/sell trading pit?

The solution is for 2ROS modelers to join and participate in NMRA events.

Been doing that for better than 20 years; would be nice to have a few more join me.

"Wondering if someone could expand on the issues which are keeping these groups apart.    "

Curious about what is keeping these groups of modelers from working together on meets?

@Landsteiner posted:

"Wondering if someone could expand on the issues which are keeping these groups apart.    "

Curious about what is keeping these groups of modelers from working together on meets?

More than likely the usual suspects....

@Landsteiner posted:

"Wondering if someone could expand on the issues which are keeping these groups apart.    "

Curious about what is keeping these groups of modelers from working together on meets?

The NMRA is mostly non- O Scale, whereas the O Scale Meets are nothing but.  It's natural that people will gravitate to what interests them.  Not all of us are in the hobby to promote it to other people, so when we discuss how we can "promote" O Scale, we will never get 100% participation.  And there is nothing wrong with that. 

I think the disdain for the NMRA come from individual experiences on a local basis.  Those with the more positive outlook have had good experiences.  My experiences have been neutral.  n my area, while I have found certain NMRA activities a lot of fun, I found that nobody at all was interested in what I was doing in my basement because it was O Scale and they were into HO.  HO was and is their interest and they have little interest in anything else.  At the same time, I have little interest in scales other than O myself, so I can understand that these are not bad people, they just don't have the same interest I have. Now, experiences are going to vary from person to person, from year to year, etc..

@Brad Kowal posted:

The NMRA is mostly non- O Scale, whereas the O Scale Meets are nothing but.  It's natural that people will gravitate to what interests them.  Not all of us are in the hobby to promote it to other people, so when we discuss how we can "promote" O Scale, we will never get 100% participation.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

I think the disdain for the NMRA come from individual experiences on a local basis.  Those with the more positive outlook have had good experiences.  My experiences have been neutral.  n my area, while I have found certain NMRA activities a lot of fun, I found that nobody at all was interested in what I was doing in my basement because it was O Scale and they were into HO.  HO was and is their interest and they have little interest in anything else.  At the same time, I have little interest in scales other than O myself, so I can understand that these are not bad people, they just don't have the same interest I have. Now, experiences are going to vary from person to person, from year to year, etc..

I have no doubt that you're accurately relaying your experience.  But it's really sad to be surrounded by people who are so closed minded and parochial that they aren't interested in good modeling that's not in their scale.  Our hobby is such a small niche that we can't afford to shrink the tent.

@mwb posted:

...Perhaps the "activities" that the NMRA does not have is a buy/sell trading pit?...

Every national and regional convention I've attended had a trading area.

Local NMRA has 3-4 swap meets each year - most of them include clinics that aren't scale-specific.  I don't live in an area that is exactly a hotbed of model railroading - maybe I'm just lucky with my experience.

We need O scale shows.  Most three rail shows have zip in even joint useable building  kits,  or much of the accessories and materials needed to model in nominal 1/48, of two or three, or that spaghetti junction Cincinnati traction line of three or more gauges.

Not being a lawyer there is probably a flaw in this, but why not have a waiver right up front before anyone is allowed admission, absolving the show holder from ANY liability that all exhibitors/entrants /visitors must sign prior to entry?

As for why I go to shows, the one and only reason I attend shows is for the purpose of acquisition/or sales. If I happen to make a friend or two, all the better.

ECI

Waivers of that kind (assumption of the risk") are no guarantee against a lawsuit for negligence by the organizers of the show. The passengers on the recently lost submersible "Titan" signed elaborate waivers, but that won't fully insulate Oceangate from potential liability in the event that negligence in design, operation, etc. can be shown.

@B Smith posted:

Waivers of that kind (assumption of the risk") are no guarantee against a lawsuit for negligence by the organizers of the show. The passengers on the recently lost submersible "Titan" signed elaborate waivers, but that won't fully insulate Oceangate from potential liability in the event that negligence in design, operation, etc. can be shown.

That's one of the problems with today's world. No one is willing to accept responsibility for their own stupidity.

@EastCoastIron posted:

Not being a lawyer there is probably a flaw in this, but why not have a waiver right up front before anyone is allowed admission, absolving the show holder from ANY liability that all exhibitors/entrants /visitors must sign prior to entry?

As for why I go to shows, the one and only reason I attend shows is for the purpose of acquisition/or sales. If I happen to make a friend or two, all the better.

ECI

Are you thinking about the Event Insurance here?  $2 Million Coverage is less than $900 and is available through almost any Independent Insurance Agent.  The main stressors for running a show is event space cost and hotel room commitments.  Although fewer people like to get married today, those who do will spend obscene amounts of money on hotels at the same times we try to run our meets.