Going 2 rail...questions thread!

Wow guys thank you all so much for all you have said! I have been keeping notes and trying to take in as much as I can! Thank you thank you thank you! I havent been this excited about model RRing in a long time! I cant wait to finish my finals on Wednesday and get to work! 

That sounds great, Will.

 

Bill,

Good to know we are square.

Guys I cannot thank you enough for all of the help you have given me! My last final is tomorrow (calculus ) and after that I think I will reward myself by buying some track and giving this handlaying thing a shot. If all else it will be fun to learn how to do! 

 

I was wondering what size you guys felt was the closest to modern mainline rail? code 148 looks pretty heavy but it might be right? Also I think I am going to use steel rail as it is almost half the cost of NS...any opinions on that?

 

Thanks again! I cant wait to get goin! 

I have never used steel rail due to my layout being in the garage. I was afraid I would not be able to keep the rust off of it. The guys who have used it really like it from what I have heard. Like I said I might use it if I had more control over the layout environment. If you need anything to get started with your track laying seems me a message off line I will help if I can. Ken the guy from AR

I have one loop steel, two nickel silver, and one brass - all.148.

 

I am two miles from the Pacific Ocean, and under the coastal fog area.  The west end of my layout has a window that stays open year round, and no screen. A big window.

 

The steel rail does get a layer of rust, but it takes the same amount of time to clean it as it does the other three loops.  I see absolutely no difference in performance or care.

 

I do use clipper oil on all rails - keeps them clean and shiny for a week.

Code .148 basically equates to 132lb rail....main line track I believe, or close to it.   

I measured the height of some UP mainline track at the station in downtown Austin.  It's really hard to get an accurate measurement without laying down to sight across the top of the track which Im sure the UP police would not think is a good idea!!  But, it was very close to 7 inches in height.  I miked a piece of Atlas O code 148 at 9/64 in..  This turns out to be a scale 6.75 inches in height if I got the measurements and the math right.   This seems to back up what Chris states above.

 

And while were at, it our track guage is a scale 5 feet (60 in) while the prototype is 4 ft 8.5 in (56.5 in)  If I did the math right our track is 0.073 inch (about 7/100s) too wide.

  

Austin Bill 

For some people code 148 is pretty accurate. For others code 125 is. 148 works well for modern era and 125 for branchlines, some sidings, or anything throughout much of the steam era. In some cases code 100 works but usually for industry sidings and not necessarily all of them. Code 138 is even available if you are real picky. I have some code 172 which is too large but visually no one really notices. It's one of those things where it's easy to criticize it on a technical standpoint without looking to see the whole picture. Very few would ever notice. Some would though but they would really only be other O scale people who hand lay their own track. I was originally planning on going all code 148 mainline but with my new plan centered around city industries I'm going with all code 125. It's cheaper too which is a plus.

Yeah that is the way I am going..code .148 for the main line and code .125 for the sidings and yard areas.  For me that is enough of a visual difference....which really isn't that noticeable....LOL  

 Code 172 was used by many of the early and greatest O scalers like John Armstrong.  It "looked right" and their equipment operated well on it.

 

Now we've moved on to a range of smaller codes and lots of discussion about which to use.  But, how about the fact that standard O scale track is a scale 5 ft between the rails instead of 4ft 8.5 inches?   It's slightly over 1/16 inch (1.16/16ths) too wide.

 

How do you play this guage error of over 1/16 inch against choosing between the various rail codes between 148 and 100?  

 

Where does it all end?  Proto 48?

 

I admit that my senses are dulled after looking at Atlas O code 215 3 rail (rails too wide as well as too tall) for 12 years. Until I switched to 2 rail in Feb 2012.

 

Austin Bill

 

 

MTH fixed that little problem for the Europeans.  Wonder why Americans never thought it to be important?

 

Yes,  I can feel the conflict inside you.  Turn to the Dark Side - P48

 

In all seriousness, I have switched from O scale 2 Rail to P48 and have no regrets.

P48 is not for everyone.  The choice of RTR P48 is well almost non-existent.  There exists items to convert OW5 items to P48 and as P48 continues to grow there may be more RTR items available.

 

My "conversion" to P48 occurred when I saw two beautiful box cars side by side and they were identical except for 3 details - road number, couplers and trucks.  I was hooked.

 

Larry

P48 or not..?  It comes down to a choice just as 3 rail or 2 rail.  Just depends on the individual and his or her wants...likes...ect.

Hi Larry,

 

This topic started with Will announcing he's switching to 2 rail.  I'll bet others who are considering switching are reading it to help them make the decision to switch from 3 to 2 rail.  I did a lot of that during the length of time I deliberated on it.

 

I'm perfectly happy with my choice of Atlas O flextrack and manufactured turnouts. 

 

What I'm really aiming at is the question, "what is good enough for the vast majority in the center of the 2 rail O scale bell shaped curve?"  The sweet spot that offers the widest range of modellers a decent and respecteable amount of scale accuracy for a decent amount of time and money given a decent set of skills, tools and space.

 

Clearly P48 is the ultimate.  We are fortunate to have an award winning P48 modeller who ACTUALLY has a fairly large operating layout here in the Austin area.

 

 (Since switching to 2 rail I've met a lot of guys who talk a big game but when you ask them about their layout, they sort of look away and mumble something about "still in the planning stage" or the like.) 

 

Anyway his P48 layout acually runs and has meticulous hand laid track, award winning scratch built rolling stock and buildings.  A few awesome, well running and expensive P48 engines.  I've spent time at that layout.  P48 is the ultimate.  No arguement.  But, I don't think anyone would call this mainstream.

 

I'm thinking perhaps Will, myself and others switching to 2 rail  would like to hear more about Ready to Run engines and rolling stock and flex track and RTR turnouts etc, etc and how to build a well running good looking layout with these types of products.  Goals we can achieve with skills, money and time we wish to devote to it.  Hopefully this is what will encourage more guys (gender neutral) to come over to 2 rail.

 

It turns out that most who have answered Will's topic seem to be into hand laying track.  More power to them.  Good guys taking the time to speak and try to be helpful based on thier perspective.  But, this gives the impression that to be legitimate in 2 rail O scale you have to hand lay track and be concerened with the varioius codes of track.

 

It seems inconsistent to me to be deeply  concered about choosing between, say, code 148 and code 125 only to ignore the fact that the 5 feet track gauge in standard O scale is wrong (too wide) by over 1/16 of an inch.  This 1/16 of an inch is a significant dimension of about the same magnitude as the difference between track code dimensions. Seems if we ignore this then we migh want to consider lightening up about some other dimensions to balance things out.

 

I'm suggesting that there's a "sweet spot" in between  3 rail modelling at one end and Proto 48 on the other.  A set of compromises that results in a very nice running, reliable 2 rail O scale layout that looks "right" to the vast majority and that can be built in a reasonable amount of time, within a reasonable budget and by a guy (gender neutral) with a reasonable set of tools and skills.

 

That's my goal.  I hope others out there will agree and encourage newcomers to O scale 2 rail and offer them credibillity and acceptance at any level they choose. 

 

Austin Bill

Bill,

I think my preferences are mostly in line with what you are saying. I'm in a local group that includes 3 railers and 2 railers including some proto 48ers. There is a fair amount of RTR stuff on our layouts so the sweet spot you describe may be more prevalent than you know. I know John Sethian who posted here uses all Atlas track and turnouts. The only reason I did not use Atlas turnouts is because when I designed my layout they were not available. I think that turned out to be a good thing for me anyway.  

 

Switching to 2 rail added a new level of satisfaction to the hobby for me, but I wouldn't worry about getting more people into 0 2 rail. I think the best you can do is enjoy the ride yourself and share your enjoyment with others if you can, including on the internet. If people see what you are doing and like it, they'll come around. But one thing I find appealing about 0 scale is that since there are fewer of us taking on the challenge, I think that makes it a little more special to me. 

Hi Bill,

 

I agree with Christophers statements.  I was on the fence for a long time...switch or not and what did it for me was when I saw photos of Christophers layout and John Sethians...and they are both using Atlas track.  I don't think anyone here is giving the impression of hand lay or die...  It is more of a " hey this is what I am doing" kind of thing.  I just ended up handlaying because I wanted total control over the final product, and the Atlas turnouts were a turn off for me visually.....and get ready for it.....it NEVER occured to me to detail them and tweak them....I am a regular boy wonder aren't I?  I still would have hand layed some just so I would not be limited in my design, but not all the ones I am doing now.  Oh well live and learn right?.....(Lets hope). 

    There are plenty of offerings out there in 2 rail engines and rolling stock all the way from Kohs to Weaver to Atlas to 3rd rail and so on.  I think one of the best ways to promote the hobby is by what we are doing here...right now.  Sharing knowledge and skills, photos and so on.  I only received respectful,helpful and welcoming responses from everyone here, and I can never thank them enough. 

     The rail code thing...I think that most folks would notice a larger rail before they would notice the gauge....that is just MHO and I may be wrong...(and often am) but thats just my 2 cents....and I am here to tell you that I am bringing virtually minutes of experience to this thread....

 

Bill, opinions and attitudes will be varied on this sort of discussion. What serves one very well becomes their own personal standard of excellence.Their buddy might feel their effort is off track for what he sees as the ultimate, and yet these two friends thoroughly enjoy sharing time on each others railroad. Neither is critical of his buddies efforts.

 

Funny thing, I didn't even know about 3 rail O scale since I figured all that was the Lionel toy trains I left behind as a schoolboy in the 1950's when I started chasing HO trains for the realism they offered. I started my O scale railroad using the only track I recognized, 2 rail Track!

 

I have to say, as far as P48 being the ultimate, well maybe from the potential is has to display realistic track and wheel profiles that has an element of truth. However laying fine standards of trackwork, and equipping extremely well detailed rolling stock and locomotives with fine scale wheels is really only part of acheiving the so-called ultimate model railroad. If an individual cannot build the total railroad, the very convincing scenery, exceptionally realistic ,structures and etc, the layout is no more the ultimate than if they used Atlas flex track, and RTR wheelsets. In the hands of a seasoned model railroader with diverse skill sets it can be exceptional nevertheless. In the mean time the guy using a RTR supply line is having just as much fun as anyone else, until enough diverse exposure opens their eyes to the potential for them to excell.

 

Don't know what the so called sweet spot might be all things considered. I personally build everything in a sort of rotation that avoids monotony, Might work on an engine for a couple months, do some scenery for a while, lay some track, scratchbuild a warehouse, monkey with my DCC and do some decoder installs and programing, I grow my railroad a little at a time and allow it to evolve as circumstances change. The original ideas I had for track plans has changed several times, and my operations are the better for it than if I had said ok this is the plan! Now im laying all the track, then installing  all the electrics, then plant all the trees, etc, you get the point. This is my way, my sweet spot, and I don't pretend it must be someone elses necessarily. Do what pleases you.

 

I am also familiar with those guys who talk a big game, but their efforts languish month in an month out as they plan the dream, and never quite get going...no sweet spot there, better to do something and learn and grow in the hobby, the sweet spot will become known to those who make such efforts.

 

Bottom line, to anyone who wants a model railroad, get busy, learn as you go, make mistakes, change as necessary, always have a project or two going on, don't get bogged down in the details so much that you get totally stalled out, and what ever you do, don't become the famous armchair model railroader...he ain't getting anywhere sitting on his dead spot!

 

Bob

 

 

My P48 comment was an attempt at levity in reply to Austin Bill's question, Where does it all end? Proto 48?

 

As I stated for me, I was hooked when I saw the difference because of my desire for "realism" (yea I know there is 1:1, but I don't have the room or the $$$$ ".

Model Railroading is a great hobby, and I progressed from Lionel 3 rail ( 1950's 1960's) to 2 Rail O scale prior to the advent of 3 Rail scale and some of that stuff really is top notch.  For me that third rail is a deal breaker.  Even with the advent of some really impressive 3 Rail Scale stuff, I stayed in 2 rail scale.

 

For those that desire more "realism" the switch from 3 rail scale to 2 rail is the natural progression.  My comment about availability of RTR in P48 is based on what might happen if that standard starts to "catch fire" with the O scale crowd, and if there is a demand for RTR P48, then someone "will build it".

 

As for my P48 layout, it is quite simple - an "L" design switching layout.  I do not have the room or the $$$$ for the massive double track mainline with all the bells and whistles that make visitors go "Oooooh" and "Ahhhh", but I know what I want and what makes me happy.

 

Not knocking any other scale or gauge, I've seen some mighty impressive work in 3 rail, 3 rail scale, 2 rail Scale, and P48, I'm just saying what I like.

 

So Will, welcome to 2 rail, the step towards a more realistic modeling experience, either 3 ft section flextrack or hand laid, 2 rail scale or P48, do what makes you happy cause that is what is important.  And there are plenty of people on this forum who can give you some great advice as your journey begins.

 

Larry

 

Lets not loose sight of the most important thing that was brought up in this thread....

 

Will, how was the calculus final? 

Once again guys thankyou all so much for yourinput and help. It really means a lot! And John thank you it was good I got a B giving me an A in the class.  

 

Unfortunately I just found out today that I have to have an emergency tonsillectomy in a week as my right tonsil has abnormal cell growth and requires a biopsy to check for cancer. So I guess my hand laying adventure will be put on hold. I may order a fast  tracks jig and learn how to make turnouts! I will be laid up for at least two weeks so I'm sure that I could get at least one done  

 

Thanks guys the more and more I look into this thing the more excited I get! 

Good luck with your tests.

 

I believe the more reasonable solution to the five foot gauge problem is 17/64 scale.  It brings the track to roughly 4'8 1/2".  You may say that nothing is commercially available, but there is a lot of older stuff out there in the larger scale, and MTH is now doing it for European models.

 

You can mix and match - I routinely run double- shotted 17/64 4-10-2s and 1/4" 2-10-2s together.  I have two different sizes of diesels - a lot of Adams castings are in the larger scale.  I don't mix them because the roof lines make the size difference obvious.

 

Making a few models in the larger scale would give folks a choice without having any effect on trackwork or scenery.  K- line did something similar with their Shay, although I think it was bigger than 17/64.  Lionel did it with the UP streamliner.

I have a code 125 #5 fast tracks fixture and point/frog filing fixture. I would give you or anyone else a good deal on if you want it. Ken the guy from AR

Ken I am interested I was going to use 125 in my yards and industrial areas. I tried to find you email to contact you offline. Feel free to email me. Thanks.

Will,

 

First off, good luck with the tonsil thing!

 

I highly recommend this:

 

http://www.cleveshows.com/Clev...e%20Train%20Show.htm

 

The Kirtland, Ohio 2 rail meet on Nov. 3 of this year at Lakeland Community college.

 

If you can get up there you will see a LOT of stuff that might just help you decide how you want to proceed.

 

This link will also be of interest:

 

http://www.oscaleresource.com/Shows/

 

Apart from Kirtland, if you are able to travel a bit more distance wise, I would highly recommend the shows at Strasburg, PA and the annual Chicago March meet, and O Scale National which is in Parsippany, NJ this year.

 

If you can visit any or all of these, you will get an O scale education.

 

Regards,

Simon

 

PS: These are ALL 2 Rail shows.

Ken

I am interested, email me particulars:  pierce2532@sbcglobal.net

 

Mike P

Will best of luck to you with the tonsil....I'm sure all will go well. 

Just a quick, self-interested suggestion:  Try something different - consider 19th Century railroading.  Tighter curve radii, shorter trains, simpler track-work.  Really cool, colorful models.

 

Dave

OR...

 

You could REALLY go to the dark side and model in S scale (not hi-rail):

 

* Trains that are not too big, not too small... but JUUUUST right. 

 

* Gain about 25% to 30% in track plan size on the same layout footprint as O scale.

 

* NO wide gauge to live with.

 

* RTR flex track available reasonably priced.

 

* Etc, etc!!!

 

(Runs ducking for cover!)

 

 

Andre

Well I made the Dean's List in OSU's engineering department so I awarded myself by buying my turnout supplies! Fastracks #5 turnout jig code 125 rail pc and wood ties! time to get to work! thanks again all for the help and encouragement! 

Well hey that's great Will!  Let me be the first to say congratulations....you earned it.  And good luck on your handlaying venture, again if you ever need something just toss your question up here and we will all help in what ever way we can.  Or shoot me an email...my door is always open.

Thanks Chris!

 

Ok so I think that this forum thread is just going turn into my questions thread as I have a lot of them and would feel bad opening a new one for each question!

 

Ok so I have a lot of really nice 3 rail rolling stock now all with kadees but they have 3 rail wheels. Can I just buy Intermountain wheelsets and swap out the 3 rail and 2 rail ones without having to buy brand new trucks? Or do I have to buy brand new 2 rail truck assemblies? All of my stuff is MTH Premier and Atlas.

 

As always thank you!  

Will,

 

An O scaler in our RR group did just that (IM wheelsets)  with some MTH rolling stock he bought on the cheap.  He also uses the Fasttrack  turnout jigs.  His only comment was, his arms started to look like 'Popeye's"  with all the filing he was doing. That is a really neat system and his switches look great.

 

The OSU that is Ohio State?  at the risk of being banned ( go Buckeyes) 

 

Larry

If you haven't done so already, you should probably invest in an NMRA O scale tracks and standards gauge or 2 along wiith a KaDee coupler height gauge.

 

As for swapping out wheelsets vs. entire trucks, some brands and trucks are simpler than others to swap wheelsets and there are a number of "experts" residing here to advise you on the specifics. 

I was attending an O-Scale meet and saw J.D.'s Trains there.  He had a bunch of LIONEL rolling stock that had been converted to 2Rail.  I believe all he did was change the wheelsets to IM, and add KD couplers.  Drop him a line, he will give you the whole story.

Has anyone compiled a list of what Lionel rolling stock is scale?  I am aware of the PFE R-40-23, and know they produced other scale stuff, but don't know specifics.  Thanks all!

Alright! Thanks Larry! and it is The Ohio State University!!!

 

O-H!!!!!

You cannot. you need a mayor modification if you want to make it look nice and scale.

a normal atlas is 1/4 of an inch wider than a scale truck, the IM wheel will fit but not very well run and appearance. if you are good making mechanic changes you can make what I did.

AG.

Well AG I hope that it works better on MTH as I just spent $50 on IM wheelsets.

Willbaker45,

the IM needle point is shot, so the wheel center will not match with the journal center. will work but in appearance look horrible. So my recommendation is, without modification of the trucks, buy a nylon bar and remake the plastic bushing to the dimensions needed.

Andre.

I would buy the Atlas two rail convention wheel sets from Atlas for your Atlas cars. IM wheel sets won't fit you Atlas trucks as they come. I do not own any MTH car but I think you can get two rail wheel sets from them also. Ken the guy from Ar