Paul,

Just an idea.   On my old large layout, I used outdoor lighting transformers (like Malibu) for my lighting.    They need a minimum load to operate, but were great in that 12 volt arena.     I made a small panel with simple rotary dimmer switches, and ran the power thru those, then to the lights.

There are some really good buys here as compared to some of the toy train options.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html...ly&_sacat=181993

EscapeRocks posted:

Paul,

Just an idea.   On my old large layout, I used outdoor lighting transformers (like Malibu) for my lighting.    They need a minimum load to operate, but were great in that 12 volt arena.     I made a small panel with simple rotary dimmer switches, and ran the power thru those, then to the lights.

David - that's neat. For the rotary dimmer switch - is this just one you buy at hardware stores - and then wire in the output voltage from transformer to dimmer - and then dimmer to lighting accessory terminal strip?

Paul Kallus posted:

EscapeRocks posted:

Paul,

Just an idea.   On my old large layout, I used outdoor lighting transformers (like Malibu) for my lighting.    They need a minimum load to operate, but were great in that 12 volt arena.     I made a small panel with simple rotary dimmer switches, and ran the power thru those, then to the lights.

David - that's neat. For the rotary dimmer switch - is this just one you buy at hardware stores - and then wire in the output voltage from transformer to dimmer - and then dimmer to lighting accessory terminal strip?

That is what I did.  When getting the transformers, make sure to check what the minimum operating current is.  Most of the need a certain load before they'll kick on.    Some of the more expensive "magnetic" transformers don't need a minimum wattage before working.

I used a few small transformers by Malibu, rather than one large capacity one.  This gave me more varied control of scenes around the layout.

Back when I did this on my old, large layout, I actually had a couple with timers, and set the layout lights to come on at night.  It was a neat effect.

If you are thinking $/Watt, you have probably observed that train transformers are typically in the $1/Watt range.  The outdoor lighting transformers (Malibu, etc.) might be in the 20 cents per Watt range, your mileage may vary.  But the biggest bang for the buck simply from the massive volume in PC or electronic gadgets would be DC fixed-voltage output bricks (12V, 18V, etc. DC) such as for PCs, laptops, printers, etc. which you should be able to find for 10 cents per Watt (or less) or may even have one sitting around from an obsolete gadget.

Then, you can use a DC PWM controller module off eBay for less than $2 shipped.  You can hook up multiple PWM controllers to a single power supply to provide individual control to multiple power districts or whatever you want to call them.  This photo from another thread about a similar topic.  DC-in, chopped DC-out.

For a few dollars more, there are wireless remote control pairs that do the same thing.  You have a small fob with a few button that remotely control the output of a PWM module.  These are primarily used to remotely control the brightness of the 12V DC LED light strips.

If you indeed pencil out the numbers on using an AC-dimmer to adjust the effective output voltage of a landscape AC lighting transformer, I'd like to see the numbers.  I realize Escaperocks apparently found a dimmer controller that works AFTER the AC voltage is already stepped down to 14V AC (or whatever) but make sure whatever AC dimmer you get indeed has that capability.  Some require the incoming voltage to be the "full" 120V AC just from the way they are designed.

Paul Kallus posted:

EscapeRocks posted:

Paul,

Just an idea.   On my old large layout, I used outdoor lighting transformers (like Malibu) for my lighting.    They need a minimum load to operate, but were great in that 12 volt arena.     I made a small panel with simple rotary dimmer switches, and ran the power thru those, then to the lights.

David - that's neat. For the rotary dimmer switch - is this just one you buy at hardware stores - and then wire in the output voltage from transformer to dimmer - and then dimmer to lighting accessory terminal strip?

Lighting dimmer switches are not designed to be used with transformer type loads.  I'm surprised it works at all!

Just my 2 cents...

ed

I have been using my older Lionel transformers in the 40 to 60 watt range for building lights as it keeps the load off my main transformers. Most incandescent lights can be used on either AC or DC voltage.

I do not recommend using 120 volt light sets on the layout as it can be dangerous if a short occurs.

Lee Fritz

I second the use of a DC computer supply.  The one I have has four 12vdc outputs each with integrated circuit protectors, plus there are 5vdc and 3.3vdc outputs which can be used with other devices such as the miller signs.

I recently abandoned my converted computer power supplies as sources for DC accessories for several reasons:

• The need for a minimum load
• Variation in amount of current delivered
• Concerns over quality of manufacture and potential fire hazards (heat)

I recommend the purchase of commercial quality switched power supplies from an electrical supply house.  Price isn't everything - safety is.

On the AC side of the house, I have 3 K-Line PowerChief 120F accessory transformers.  They have a number of fixed outputs that can be configured.  I like them.

George

I use two, MTH model Z-DC1 adjustable transformers for all the lights on the layout (one for the east half, and the other for the west half). I purchased them from our local hobby shop, some years ago, and they reportedly came from some MTH "Trolly Car Set". They are 17.2 - 19.2 Volts max, 47 watt. I have each one set at 10.5 to 11 volts DC for the various light circuits, thus the 12 volt bulbs will last a VERY long time.

eddiem posted:

Lighting dimmer switches are not designed to be used with transformer type loads.  I'm surprised it works at all!

I went to Radio Shack and they sell a power adapter with different tips. I used my adapter off my Z1000 connected to the tip and had power. The great thing about the RS adapter is you can set the voltage from 3.5 to 12 volts. I have it set to 7.5 volts to maintain long bulb life. 

If your overloading a z4000 already, I think an automobile battery charger might be the easiest cheap way to get the amperage. But thats DC volts so you might need to reorganise some things for issolation (and some items need ac) The G crowd makes good use of them regularly and I don't recall any DCC issues being mentioned, so hopefully the one you choose is "clean enough" for being around ANY command system..?

If you can find a used Astron or similar ham radio power supply they ought to be great. The last one I had was 12v dc 50amp (13.7v no load). Only 5a less than my roll out Snap on battery charger switched to "start". Very steady, very clean...very heavy, lol

Stans pwm boards and/or a vintage lionel rheostat for the variable. A new rheostat isn't cheap. One thing a rheostat does offer over the boards is the ability to use one control with more items on the circuit. Since the board has a 5a max. you'd need a bunch of them.

Most modern dimmers need full household voltage. An

....and I couldn't finish because the composer had a fascination with the word charger and wouldn't do any additional text except for between the a and r in charger...????... and after waiting for reloading, etc, I now forget what I was going to mention.....

I looked on e-bay at the various transformers Chuck and others mentioned - totally overwhelming - and I really don't know what to buy.

Can anyone point to a trusted supplier and say this or that will work? I'd rather not get involved in making custom controls - I have little mechanical skills and zero electronic skills.

stan2004 posted:

eddiem posted:

Lighting dimmer switches are not designed to be used with transformer type loads.  I'm surprised it works at all!

He apparently found a dimmer that can be placed AFTER the lighting transformer output.  So the load on the dimmer are the low-voltage lights themselves (not a transformer).

Thank you..

I just experimented with various pots until I found some that worked perfectly for my needs.  It's part of the fun for me.

I've never had an issue with any sellers...the ones who are running a business either in China or the stateside shipping locations for China goods.

If you bought 0 to say 30 VDC adjustable plug in the wall supplies, how many amps do you need per supply. There are quite a few at 3 amps output for around $35 shipped. Anything else is pretty much something that you have to at least mount on a board and wire up.

How many and what output do you need?

For what it's worth, I found the OGR video Great Layout Adventures, Vol. 11 helpful. Bill Bramlage has over 10,000 lights on his layout. it's worth the price just for the watching. He describes some of his methods in the video.

I also say a pic power supply.

Paul Kallus posted:

I looked on e-bay at the various transformers Chuck and others mentioned - totally overwhelming - and I really don't know what to buy.

Can anyone point to a trusted supplier and say this or that will work? I'd rather not get involved in making custom controls - I have little mechanical skills and zero electronic skills.

  I dont want to burst the bubble. Heres to hoping Im wrong...But custom is basically what you've asked for.  The easiest way is a train transformer. There just aren't a whole lot of other applications offering a high quality, medium-low voltage, high amp output that is also variable, with an easy "reach out and grab it," adjustment. In fact, I can't think of any; not one. If it existed we would use it.

So your stuck with  the "real thing" for a UL listing and saftey, or modifying a constant output type as an alternate.

A ZW is a Cadillac that's sells and resells at a good premium. The KW, LW, TW are usually found much cheaper in a price per watt way. But you still need to look them over, so unless your ready to learn a little and work on those skills, buy new and sleep well.

Well 4 of the zero to 30 volt dc supplies that put out 3 amps each, are in nice set on the table enclosures with meters and knobs for $35 each shipped, $140 total is actually not so bad. Compare that to a dusty old ZW with worn out rollers, etc. for the same price.

Well, I just bought a 0-30V 10A DC power supply for $55 off eBay, I'm using it as a bench supply, but it would certainly do this probably cheaper than most model train transformers.

Here is a diagram of the K-Line PowerChief 120F accessory taps.

George

Here's what I think I need based on observations from using Z-4000 transformer for building lights - and am basing this on digital readings on Z-4000. If anyone can steer me towards a solution with model #s of transformers and controls and clear instructions on how to assemble the thing, I may be able to put it together:

Using handles of Z-4000 - I set voltage anywhere from 8 to 11 volts AC ~ amps on both handles read 4-5 each - this produces nice effects with building lights (not to dim and not too bright); problem is at the upper range of these settings (which is needed to activate blinking signs in the buildings that have them) the building lights pulse in sync with Z-4000 pulsing. This is an undesirable effect and ruins the point of lighting buildings- makes a crazy electronic noise as well.

Since I still need to hook up more buildings (a lot more actually) I will need power supply for the existing buildings and to-be-added ones. Based on observations with a single Z-4000 transformer - I would need at least two more transformers to handle just the building lights alone (some of my buildings are 10 stories tall with 2 lights per floor that's 20 lights ~ am guessing 2-3 watts per bulb that's nominally 50 watts for one building).

Based on those observations, is there anything I can buy at lesser price than Z-4000 units that will give similar control over brightness? I read some of your posts about DC transformers - but can DC outputs be controlled liked AC (adjusted brightness)? Not sure of other disadvantages of DC? If there is please give links to actual unit and controls or model #s along with instructions on how to put together. Sorry to be dense on this, but electronics are abstract to me - but with clear guidance on what to buy and how to assemble I think I can do it.

Thanks.

Paul,

Had I seen the supplies that CJACK sent the link to a few years ago when I did mine , I would have done one of those instead of the computer supply as it needed some modifications.

This one looks nice

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-30...c:g:nVYAAOSwqBJXUIWJ

It will provide up to 30 volts of dc voltage with 10 amps of current.  both the dc voltage and the current limit are adjustable.  If you think of the DC voltage adjustment like the handle on the Z4000, you can set it to your desired 8-11 volts. Given you indicate you are drawing 4-5 amps per side, I think the 10 am supply would work just fine, I think it is about $65 with free freight.  Plus this is a complete unit, plug it into the wall, and connect to the GND and + (Green and Red) terminals posts on the front to your lighting wires.  You have a fine and coarse voltage adjustment to get the voltage (brightness) you want.

If you would have double the capacity if you got 2, and for about $130 you can't touch a single Z4000 even used.  The technology of regulated DC supplies have really developed in the last 10 years, offering great cost vs power benefit.  They typically are very reliable.

After looking at these supplies, IMO it would be foolish to mess around with old toy train transformers, and even though I like the Z4000 and it is a great transformer, overkill for this type of job.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks Rich for the link, and others as well. That might be the ticket.

PLCProf: I have mostly incandescent bulbs ~ 4-5 buildings have LED's. The thought of changing them all to LED's is overwhelming as its taken me years to build some of the custom buildings ~ and I used the bulbs they came with.

I did some quick math and at 4-5 amps x 10 volts per each throttle of my Z-4000 that's only about 100 watts (VI = Watts) total. Yet, isn't the Z-4000 rated at 360 to 380 watts? I am not sure why its having so much trouble (pulsing) at what I am using it for? I'll confirm the amps later, but am pretty sure the above is correct. Could it be the thin building wires ~ guessing their 22 gauge can't handle the load being pushed out? I have about 25 buildings on the one transformer at this point ~ about 10 of them are 6 stories or greater.

Paul Kallus posted:

 ...Using handles of Z-4000 - I set voltage anywhere from 8 to 11 volts AC ~ amps on both handles read 4-5 each - this produces nice effects with building lights (not to dim and not too bright); problem is at the upper range of these settings (which is needed to activate blinking signs in the buildings that have them)

 

Tell us more about these blinking signs (model # or supplier?).  If by upper range you mean these buildings require 11V or whatever to operate, then it seems you need at least 2 independently controllable voltages...that is, one that can be lowered to 8V for buildings that don't blink, another that must stay up around 11V for buildings that do blink.

So adding to PLCPROF's question about what exactly you have, I'd ask what you see in your future.  A lot of guys are adding lighted accessories from the likes of Menards, Miller, Lemax and so on.  In general these operate around 4.5V DC.  Some have a small range of brightness adjustment if you vary the DC voltage.  Are these in the cards for your layout?  Plan twice, buy once!

Also, a lot of guys are using 12V DC LED lighting strips especially for larger buildings, station platforms, etc..  These too have a range of brightness adjustment from, say, 9-12V DC.  In some cases these are retro-fit to replace power hungry incandescent bulbs.  Yes, there's some re-wiring to do in buildings but LED strips use only 10%-20% of the power (Watts) as the same brightness of traditional incandescent bulbs.

Just another twist to the discussion...in other words another option is to lower the demand for lighting power rather than increasing the supply of power.  I'm thinking you must have done some kind of wire cutting, stripping, power distribution using terminal blocks or whatever?

Rich883 posted:

This one looks nice

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10A-30...c:g:nVYAAOSwqBJXUIWJ

It will provide up to 30 volts of dc voltage with 10 amps of current.  both the dc voltage and the current limit are adjustable.  If you think of the DC voltage adjustment like the handle on the Z4000, you can set it to your desired 8-11 volts. Given you indicate you are drawing 4-5 amps per side, I think the 10 am supply would work just fine, I think it is about $65 with free freight.  Plus this is a complete unit, plug it into the wall, and connect to the GND and + (Green and Red) terminals posts on the front to your lighting wires.  You have a fine and coarse voltage adjustment to get the voltage (brightness) you want.

I bought the same one, it was a few bucks less with free shipping, but they seem to have sold out.  Works well and delivers 10A as promised.  It's a switching power supply, and there is a fan that runs when you're drawing significant power, something to consider.  I'm using it as a bench supply, so it's not an issue.

That's a good approach. Maybe mount some of those PWMs on a board and wire them to lighting districts.

If you're on Ham Radio, then you have to think about the switching supplies causing rf interference on the bands you are on. Some are ok, some are not. But that's another hobby .

Good to know, thanks for the info. I'm using an Astron linear supply 35amp adj with meters for the last 20 years. I tried an MFJ 75 amp to run a Hercules amp, but had birdies all up and down the band. MFJ sold it as quiet, but offered no defense or remedies when I asked to return it. I ended up with a sealed battery and an Astron as a charger which worked fine.

I'm using a ZW-R with Lionel Meter on it and four PSX-1AC fast breakers mounted on a board for my lighting, switches, and accessories.

I don't think the 12V (or 13.8V) DC power supplies for ham radio can approach the $/Watt of applications for LED lighting or PC/computer related gadgetry.  For example the power supply recommended above is about 37 cents per Watt:

But without trying very hard on eBay, here's a 12V DC "brick" for less than 10 cents/Watt which as I suggested earlier is what I consider a "good buy" at current market conditions for DC fixed-output supplies.

Many of these so-called "brick" supplies have coaxial or barrel connectors and there are adapters (less than $1 on eBay) to convert to screw-terminal connectors that somewhat simplify application.  As shown above there are sellers who figured this out and offer the adapter as a "free gift" if you are a glass-half-full type of person.

The suggested 30V 5A or 10A power supplies are indeed nice with the included voltage and current meters...but again do the math and if using them at 12V DC, I believe you are still limited to 5A or 10A (60W or 120W) so several times my somewhat arbitrary metric of 10 cents/Watt.

Not to muddy the waters but there are additional metrics used for planning/designing power supplies at the system level including Watts/cu. ft. and Watts/lb.  In other words, how much space and weight does a power-converter take?  I suppose weight is irrelevant, but are you efficiently using available layout space for a Z-4000 if you're only getting, say, 12V x 10 Amps = 120 Watts?  By way of example, the 72 Watt brick shown above paired with two (or more) $2 PWM controllers will fit in the palm of your hand and provide dual outputs.  Sure, you don't get the albeit handy LED meters showing Volts and Amps but from what I gather from your original post, $/Watt is of over-riding concern...

If you're looking for the most bang for your buck, I think it's hard to beat an ATX computer power supply.  A basic $25 supply will provide about 25 Amps at 12 volts, or, if that falls short of your needs, about $75 will get you 12V at 70 Amps.  All current generation PC supplies will have over current protection built in, and many other safety features.  Add some of the PWM modules that Stan pointed out and you should have no problem powering as many lights as you like.  As an example I've used 4 low end PC supplies to power 10,000 LEDs on a community theater stage show, granted only about half of those LEDs would be turned on at any given time.  

Also worth noting that you also get an independent 5v, 25A output and 3.3v 25A output as well if those voltages are useful to you.  

JGL

It appears that the bargains in watts all require some additional wiring, etc. which has been mostly removed from the allowable solutions. Something like 4 or 5 separate supplies at $35 each in their own boxes with meters, knobs, line cords, not dangling lumps on cords like laptop chargers. DC will do it for lighting, some accessories, etc.

I don't do it that way, but my method requires wiring and so forth. A ZW-R, with PSX-1AC breakers mounted on a board and Ebay AC to DC switching supplies with Ebay Volt-Amp digital meters mounted on panels.

When I see these 0-30 VDC 3 Amp boxes on Ebay with free shipping...I get tempted...so simple.  

I was given a large outdoor lighting transformer. I forget it's AMP out put but it is 12 VDC and is bigger than the Lionel 'bricks'. Can I use this to run lighting on my layout??? Is there an issue with using this type transformer??? Thx

"Tell us more about these blinking signs (model # or supplier?).  If by upper range you mean these buildings require 11V or whatever to operate, then it seems you need at least 2 independently controllable voltages...that is, one that can be lowered to 8V for buildings that don't blink, another that must stay up around 11V for buildings that do blink."

These are select Railking buildings that include blinking signs wired to the same hook-up terminal as the structure's lights - they do have an off/on switch. I found that the signs need at least 10-11 volts to blink - whereas the building lights come on around 7-8 volts.

In testing my current building set-up I discovered one 11-story building had no lights above floor 4 - been spending all morning disassembling and diagnosing - turned out to be a loose or bad plug that went bad at some point - frustrating to say the least.

Paul Kallus posted:

...These are select Railking buildings that include blinking signs wired to the same hook-up terminal as the structure's lights - they do have an off/on switch. I found that the signs need at least 10-11 volts to blink - whereas the building lights come on around 7-8 volts.

Some snippets from an MTH instruction sheet for a blinking-sign building.  So the "mystery" as to why it needs 10-11 Volts to blink is explained.  So if you want to be able to have the signs blink AND be able to adjust the rest of the building's brightness you will need to install some wiring to separately power the constant lights and what appears to be a "PCB Board".

I tried an image search for the PCB in an MTH blinking sign building without luck.  I'd be interested if someone has a knowledge of what it does or can post some close-ups of the board. 

cjack posted:

 

When I see these 0-30 VDC 3 Amp boxes on Ebay with free shipping...I get tempted...so simple.  

Yes indeed, and now you guys have got me wanting one of these for my workbench...I am weak...not sure how much longer I can hold out... 

Anyone know if voltage spikes are an issue with the DC transformers advertised on e-bay...I was reading the reviews of them and they made mention of voltage spikes when first powering on. Would this blow out the small bulbs in the O-gauge structures?