Goodbye DCS Remote announced at York - Bummer

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

eddiem posted:

Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

Or a WiFi remote with all the physical buttons. The remote will take to the wiu just like a phone would. I know a cool remote came out for dcc that operates like a prototypical engine. Maybe a third party can come up with it. Just need to see what data goes from the phone to the wiu. If it can be replicated, it can be possible.

In theory that is possible, the wifi remote would need to imitate the function calls the app makes, so if you turn a scroll wheel, it sends commands to the WIU to increase/decrease speed. I am not so certain this would be possible, though, the MTH DCS commands the app sends are still proprietary and could end up with someone getting a cease and desist order from MTH attorneys, sadly. DCC is an open project, DCS is not. 

Severn posted:

I don't know why folks forget about this project. You can run your mth engines with an pc and a bit of hardware as explained on the site.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

I made the panstamp item and it works with the software.  The info is all there for intrepid....

Agreed, with Mark's system it is easy to implement DCS control with a PC or Arduino.

It might not be too difficult to write some code that mapped a Raildriver to DCS control.  Biggest hurdle would be deciding how to map the throttle and brake levers to DCS actions.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

I think the cheaper claim primarily applies to MTH not needing to invest in new hardware design to create a new remote with more current parts vs. the ones it was designed with 16+ years ago that are undoubtedly approaching end of life, if not already past it.

rtr12 posted:

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

Parts obsolescence? If Motorola (random example) stops making widget XYZ, and MTH can't just buy more of part XYZ, they then need to redesign with something that can reasonably replace XYZ (including other parts dependent on it, or that it depends on, such as parts ABC or DEF).  The "ripple effect" of even one part not being available anymore could be significant.

By definition, changing any of the internal parts means a physical re-design of the hardware to some extent.

Again, I'm in the remote camp.  I just think I "get" where MTH is coming from.

-Dave

Professor Chaos posted:

Severn posted:

I don't know why folks forget about this project. You can run your mth engines with an pc and a bit of hardware as explained on the site.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

I made the panstamp item and it works with the software.  The info is all there for intrepid....

Agreed, with Mark's system it is easy to implement DCS control with a PC or Arduino.

It might not be too difficult to write some code that mapped a Raildriver to DCS control.  Biggest hurdle would be deciding how to map the throttle and brake levers to DCS actions.

Is that a handheld? (running for cover )

-Dave

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

bigkid posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

Dude are you serious? Even if you decide to build a bomb proof shelter to run your trains and never see the outside world again MTH will have to pay a person to update their app on the App Store not on your physical device but for everyone else to use. I said that because they are saying that this change is for cost-effectiveness and since the app continuously needs to be updated even if you don't want it to be it still needs to be done that incurs a charge meaning it is not more cost-effective in some of our eyes.

I don't get you, do you mean cost effective to MTH or do you mean cost effective to the user? I was talking from the user perspective and safety, that a 25 buck tablet and whatever the MTH app fees are is cost effective compared to the remote. Users don't care about the cost of updating apps the vendor is creating, it is the vendor that has to pay development time  and the time to test it and yes, support the new app if problems arise from the field, but that is the cost of any product. It is true that the remote itself hasn't changed much, as far as I know you don't update it much, but then again, each remote they make has a cost associated with it, there is the cost of materials, there is the cost of shipping it from china, there is the cost of labor of building it, there is the cost of testing it (hopefully here as well), while the cost/unit based on the initial tooling costs and the like is long gone and there is little to any cost in terms of updating the remote, there is still a cost to a physical remote.

Whatever the cost of the app is and the cost of developing the WIU (I don't know if the app uses the same codes as the command remote did, if the app has features the remote doesn't then likely the app is a superset of the commands the remote uses, the cost of the WIU itself is  likely no different than the old unit was if I am right), one thing I do know, selling the remote and supporting DCS wifi app is a larger cost than just the DCS wifi alone is going to be, and given the relatively stable nature of DCS features set I would hazard a guess that they don't have to spend all that much on the DCS app if they update only occassionally (given that the MTH app itself doesn't interact with the internet, security isn't as big a concern as an app that interacts with the internet, has people's personal data, etc). More importantly, if MTH wants to add new features users can use, a remote upgrade requires an entirely new remote, whereas with an app you write the new code and put it on the store involved, no hardware changes to add a button or the like, no new design of the remote *shrug*.  Arguing that the app isn't cost effective to MTH, if that is the argument,makes no sense, if it weren't cost effective, if the cost of developing and maintaining it was more than any gains, they wouldn't do it. Want an analogy? When Lionel went from TMCC to Legacy, they had to redo everything, including the legacy remote. If wifi app had been possible at the time, they still would have had a massive investment to do this, they needed to develop totally new commands above the ones TMCC supported, create the firmware that supported it, then create the engines and such that could use the new commands, but they would have had a lot less cost developing a software based app controller than the engineering and manufacturing cost of making the remote, and it is a lot easier to give users an app update when problems happen then giving them a new remote if they have problems with it, and also allows adding new features to the app, something you can't do on a remote easily or cheaply. 

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

From  newbe perspective to O Gauge, American Flyer when I was a kid, I have the Lionchief remotes, I find they work great and like them better than the app.  Easy for the grandkid to control the trains, though he can also use the app.  Even on carpet central I find the remote easier to use, don't have to look at it. But I will be forcing myself into a DCS explorer and the app. I just have to get an engine with charging lights. Lionel has no low cost lion chief equivalent that I know about. Both companies would be smart to make RTR sets with engines that have charging lights.  

The charging lights are just neat.

Oldmike

Daniel-

Face it, most people in general these days are going to run the DCS app on a smart device they already have, likely something they use for other reasons, the old curmudgeons without smart devices are a minority in the real world (in this world, well, that is another story). So the extra cost of going with the WIU is the 25 buck fee for the extended features (if people want them), since they would have the smart device already. Now compare the lifetime cost. If the remote breaks, chances are it can't be fixed, so you would need to get a new remote, at 100 or 150 a pop. If MTH kept the remote and decided to add new features to it, you would need to buy a new remote to get those features, at 150 bucks, whereas if you had the app running on your smartphone and the phone breaks, you would get it repaired (can get it repaired) or get a new phone, no additional cost. And if MTH adds new features to the app, you simply have to download it, likely for free. You can't just look at the initial cost, or the cost/benefit, you also have to look down the road at the costs, and I just made the argument that someone using a smart device they already have, paying the 25 buck fee or not, is likely to be more cost effective than a physical remote over the lifetime of use *shrug*....and the app could end up being a lot more fun, given the limitations of the remote. I suspect for MTH the cost factor was a no brainer, software is a lot easier to update and support than doing a hardware implementation like a remote. 

sinclair posted:

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

Unless your apple phone was really old, IOS upgrades don't cost anything. There does come a time when older phones don't have the resources to run a newer version of the OS, but there are plenty of apple devices out there not of the latest generation that run IOS 11 and will run IOS 12 when it is fully released (if it already hasn't been).  Not questioning if you run an older phone or why, I understand what you are saying, but unless you need new hardware OS upgrades don't cost anything. 

Dave45681 posted:

rtr12 posted:

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

Parts obsolescence? If Motorola (random example) stops making widget XYZ, and MTH can't just buy more of part XYZ, they then need to redesign with something that can reasonably replace XYZ (including other parts dependent on it, or that it depends on, such as parts ABC or DEF).  The "ripple effect" of even one part not being available anymore could be significant.

By definition, changing any of the internal parts means a physical re-design of the hardware to some extent.

Again, I'm in the remote camp.  I just think I "get" where MTH is coming from.

-Dave 

I do agree with the parts obsolescence and I do see MTH's point as well. And as you say depending on the part some changes may be needed which could be minor or major. I could certainly see major changes being a big problem for the remotes. However, they were going to discontinue them a while back and decided not to, for whatever reason and just had more made. I imagine just like the previous batches? I don't recall hearing about discontinued parts when that happened, but I could have very well missed that or it was never made public? 

All I was asking for is MTH continuing to make the remotes as long as they can do so without any major development or revision expenses to them. Then they let the app features continue to develop and overtake the features of the remotes. Maybe folks will then want to switch to the app for the added features. It would just be a bit less painful having to switch over that way, IMO.  

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

FYI the "cheap" Android tablets don't perform very well...plan on spending around $100. On another post MTH R&D themselves posted "buy an IPad" because of Android issues.

Personally I like the remote best because I run outside and tablets, smartphones etc. screens washout in the direct sunlight...so uh thanks MTH  

H1000 posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think after the second or third remote/tablet you have to invest in a Dr. visit not a new device.

I have not found a way to run conventional  engines with any  phone or pads yet and i run both s and o conventional and and command with the remote

Casey Jones2 posted:

FYI the "cheap" Android tablets don't perform very well...plan on spending around $100. On another post MTH R&D themselves posted "buy an IPad" because of Android issues.

Personally I like the remote best because I run outside and tablets, smartphones etc. screens washout in the direct sunlight...so uh thanks MTH  

I have two RCA bargain tablets and have also experiment with some Polaroid Budget devices. Yeah these are not great units for most things we like to do with our everyday phones and don't hold a candle to the specs of latest tablets and phones available, but they run the app just fine.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000 posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

369.95 Old TIU and Remote control + 169.95 DCS Remote 2 + 169.95 DCS remote 3 + 169.96 DCS remote 4 + 169.95 Replacemnt for dropped DCS remote 2 = $1049.75

369.95 TIU & WIU combo + $5 app fee (don't need $25 upgrade if you don't have an AIU) + $25 Tablet 1 +$25 Tablet 2 + $25 Tablet 3 + $25 Tablet 4 + $25 replacement for dropped tablet 2 = $499.95

See how that works?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think after the second or third remote/tablet you have to invest in a Dr. visit not a new device.

No, we just buy some heavy duty rubber cases (about $5 for a three pack) for our tablets and then don't worry nearly as much when kids drop them while operating the kids layout. Then if a tablet does break, it's $25 not $150. Can't seem to find an otterbox case for the DCS remote yet.

We have multiple operators, that can control everything if needs be. Our controllers are cheap and we have the ability to add up to 250 app enabled devices if would ever so desire.

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

Rider Sandman posted:

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

So.....you're OK with something that profits Lionel or MTH exclusively while you receive less choices and fewer options as a result?

And you don't think that Lionel or MTH has ANY obligation to continue to support parts of their operating systems that they sold to us (and we bought into) 15-20 years ago?

If so, I strenuously (but respectfully) disagree.

Doug-Sr posted:

I have not found a way to run conventional  engines with any  phone or pads yet and i run both s and o conventional and and command with the remote

Wiu and the app don't support conventional mode the way the tiu did? Ie controlling conventional via track voltage set by the tiu via the remote? 

yea i know thats what i dont like about dropping the remote

Are  all the HO DCC companies dropping their remotes for a phone or an iPad?

Lots of discussion about tablets, WiFi, apps, et al. However, the root cause seems to have been largely ignored. The basis of this is most likely availability of the components to manufacture the remotes. Redesign, maybe; but then you're right back on the obsolescence clock. Beat up MTH all you want, but they don't make the chips.

Lionel's Legacy remote is admittedly newer. Hence, it isn't obsolete yet.  Just a matter of time. 

I like the MTH remote too. But, how long have we been complaining about the thumbwheel? FWIW, I haven't figured out how I will deal with these issues on my own layout. 

bigkid posted:

Doug-Sr posted:

I have not found a way to run conventional  engines with any  phone or pads yet and i run both s and o conventional and and command with the remote

Wiu and the app don't support conventional mode the way the tiu did? Ie controlling conventional via track voltage set by the tiu via the remote? 

Yes the DCS APP does offer support for conventional control just like the remote. I'm not sure if it's included in the standard or premium upgrade but I know that it is not included in the free version.

Dave45681 posted:

Is that a handheld? (running for cover )

-Dave

How big are your hands?

OK, it would be much easier to create something that uses the LEGACY remote to control DCS engines. An Arduino would do:  Just read the serial stream from the Legacy base, figure out what you want the Legacy command to represent in DCS-world, and then use Mark's system to send the DCS command to the TIU.

 Cost would be about $10 in parts I think.

This is ASSUMING MTH still builds in the capability to control the TIU with a wired connection or the 905.8MHz radio signal.  That may not be the case if they revise the TIU along with ditching the remote.

Berkshire President posted:

Rider Sandman posted:

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

So.....you're OK with something that profits Lionel or MTH exclusively while you receive less choices and fewer options as a result?

ABSOLUTELY.  I'M DEFINITELY "OK" WITH THEM MAKING PROFIT ON SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS THEM TO FREE UP RESOURCES FOR SOMETHING ELSE THAT I VALUE MORE - e.g., NEW TOOLING OR ADDITIONAL FEATURES.

And you don't think that Lionel or MTH has ANY obligation to continue to support parts of their operating systems that they sold to us (and we bought into) 15-20 years ago?

THEY ARE SUPPORTING IT, THEY ARE JUST DOING SO VIA A DIFFERENT INTERFACE.  MY SENSE IS THE NUMBER OF COMPANIES STILL SUPPORTING 1998-ERA TECHNOLOGIES EXACTLY AS THEY SOLD THEM BACK THEN IS VERY SMALL.  MICROSOFT WILL STILL SUPPLY A VERSION OF EXCEL THAT WILL OPEN YOUR 20-YEAR-OLD SPREADSHEET, BUT THEY WON'T SUPPORT OFFICE '95.  

If so, I strenuously (but respectfully) disagree.

FAIR ENOUGH.  ALSO RESPECTFULLY, MY ONLY POINT IS THAT GIVEN THE MONOTONICALLY DECREASING MARKET, IF EITHER MTH OR LIONEL CAN DISCONTINUE PRODUCTION OF A DEVICE WITH ANCIENT (AND THEREFORE EXPENSIVE) CHIPSETS IN FAVOR OF DEVICES MOST FOLKS HAVE IN THEIR POCKETS AND DOING SO MEANS I CAN GET MORE CONTENT IN OTHER AREAS, I'M COOL WITH IT.  I UNDERSTAND IF OTHERS DISAGREE.  ONE POINT THAT SEEMS TO REALLY GET LOST IN THESE DISCUSSIONS IS THE COST OF COMPONENT OBSOLESCENCE.   I SPENT YEARS AS A POWERTRAIN HARDWARE ENGINEER.  THE IDEA THAT ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS ARE "TOOLING" AND THEREFORE ALWAYS AVAILABLE AT LOW COSTS ISN'T REALITY.

Berkshire President posted:

Rider Sandman posted:

My layout is 100% Legacy and I suspect Lionel will eventually get to the same place. Building new software apps for use on common devices will be orders of magnitude less expensive than continuing to build physical remotes with chipsets that are 20 years old. I would much rather have them spend their engineering and financial resources on new product innovations instead of keeping ancient hardware alive. Given the shrinking customer base, it seems to make good sense to me. 

So.....you're OK with something that profits Lionel or MTH exclusively while you receive less choices and fewer options as a result?

And you don't think that Lionel or MTH has ANY obligation to continue to support parts of their operating systems that they sold to us (and we bought into) 15-20 years ago?

If so, I strenuously (but respectfully) disagree.

Things become obsolete in many kinds of things. I have a whirlpool tub, bathtubs being something you tend to keep a long time, that when I needed a new faucet base they told me they discontinued the model 5 years after I bought it and told me they stopped stocking that part right then. I have a high end stove, again something people tend to hold on for a long time, and parts for it are getting to be unavailable (fortunately some can be subbed for,others there are places that specialize in obsolete parts). The only reason we can still get parts for post war engines and the like is the parts were often common between different units and a stockpile of parts were out there, plus when old units were remade parts were made as well upping what is out there. Given that for example Lionel stopped making new tmcc remotes when they stopped making the unit and eventually stopped carrying them, nothing new. Lionel likely would tell a tmcc user to upgrade to legacy, mth will tell you to update to wiu and wifi dcs.

Even with cars parts can have a limited life, while many parts are available long after the car was made, thanks to parts being used in many car models for many years, smaller run models can have parts no longer available not long after they cease production (cars of course have the advantage that third party parts are out there, unlike toy trains. As much as I sympathize with the idea, the idea of things being available forever or running forever just isn't the reality with anything above the level of relatively simple things, some things happen to be like that, many are not.

In the most recent notch 6 interview with Howard Hitchcock.  He acknowledges that they too will be making a change.  It didn't sound like the were going to go out of the way to phase out the legacy remote but did acknowledge that the technology was outdated and more cab-2's would'nt be produced.  the cab 1 or 1L was safe for now.   The writing is on the wall.  I like the latest and greatest Legacy and DCS has to offer.   So if  I want to stay on top of the systems and learning the tricks and ins and outs I'll have to start adapting.    I love the legacy and DCS remote.  I wish they didn't have to go away.  Its going to be a tough transition but i look forward to seeing what a future Legacy app may look like.   I have the DCS premium app and its ok but it feels pretty clunky to me.  In Mth's defense i think the apps in general feel awkward compared to the remote.   The DCS app isn't bad however it feels to me like i have to move around to much to get access to things i use.   The remotes definitely feel more fluid at least to me.   I have spoken to folks who love the app though.   Maybe i just need to commit to using it and learn it well.  Times are changing and i hate to see how much resistance the big two get any time they try to stay with the times.  Its sad really.   

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

I’m gonna make my own remote...

RJR posted:

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

 

Politely, but I can assure you that the number of 90’s era components that are either not available or not available in their inititial form factors or cost points is massive. “Something that can accomplish the same thing”, even if available, requires a redesign of a 20-year-old controller in the best case. The idea that one could take a 90’s era circuit board and find a complete set of ASICs, chipsets, surface mount and sticklead devices, and mechanical components (e.g., button/switch  contacts) to mount to it in a cost effective and seamless manner some 20+ years later simply isn’t reality whether one accepts it or not. Keep in mind model railroading command and control was largely custom protocols.  The recent implementation of Bluetooth and WiFi is being phased in so that going forward there will always be “something that can accomplish the same thing” without the need to replace and update custom and expensive hardware and software protocols. 

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

Dave45681 posted:

SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

I have read that on this forum before and that might be true BUT!!! to your logic, those said discontinued components have either gotten cheaper to manufacture or a cheaper alternative has been created to replace it.

Electronics get cheaper, smaller, and then replaced with something even cheaper and even smaller and so on and so on.

So MTH doesn't want to re-engineer the remote with modern components does indeed make sense but don't blame the parts, they can be found one way or another. That costs prohibit those changes is a different deal of course.

At this year's LCCA meeting in Chicago in July, I heard Lionel's president, Howard Hitchcock, say that for small businesses like model train companies, dealing with parts obsolescence is a complicated and costly issue. Unlike the Apples of the world who have components made to their specifications, the train companies have to work with whatever components are currently being made. Adaptations are possible to a certain extent, but, at some point, when too many key components no longer exist, you just can't make the product without making the investment to totally re-engineer it. This will likely happen to Legacy somewhere along the line; however, at this time, Lionel has produced a large inventory of Legacy items, including remotes, and will be able to continue to supply the market for a number of years.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

shorling posted:

I like the remote but IMHO the future is higher tech @ lower cost.  Why do I think that: because most everyone likes lower cost startup and APPs attract future generations.  It takes less hardware to run apps: ie, no remote means lower cost.  Look at the competition.  IMHO they're on the way to bluetooth  No hardware to buy at least for now, just use your phone, tablet, etc to run your engine.

No lower cost here, the TIU/WIU combo will be similarly priced to the TIU/Remote combo, exempt now you have to add a $25 fee for the premium features and a smart device of some sort. Technically speaking it will be more and before you say it, yes, we all should have phones.

Competition still has a remote and has not said they will be removing it (Legacy)

Mr. Kunkle at York looked me in the eye and said they are committed to the remote and have plans to keep it and there are no discussions to remove it.  

As I said, they could give us the choice of purchasing a new “Premier Plus” upscale remote as an alternative. If you run super expensive trains, I,m sure a great remote would be worth the price of a diesel locomotive.  We haven’t even touched on those without nimble fingers or challenged vision.   If we are not there yet, most of us are within a measurable period.  

This should be a hobby we don’t outgrow.  “ Operating trains make men boys, and boys men”.  Let’s not forget it’s value to us.

Professor Chaos posted:

Dave45681 posted:

Is that a handheld? (running for cover )

-Dave

How big are your hands?

OK, it would be much easier to create something that uses the LEGACY remote to control DCS engines. An Arduino would do:  Just read the serial stream from the Legacy base, figure out what you want the Legacy command to represent in DCS-world, and then use Mark's system to send the DCS command to the TIU.

 Cost would be about $10 in parts I think.

This is ASSUMING MTH still builds in the capability to control the TIU with a wired connection or the 905.8MHz radio signal.  That may not be the case if they revise the TIU along with ditching the remote.

Would be nice if someone could do this. I know I'd be in for sure! 

RJR posted:

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

 

Something like the DCS remote is not made from commonly available parts just wired together differently. For example, the DCS thumbwheel (an electro-mechanical item) is custom made for MTH, it isn't generic that a lot of companies use.The circuit board(s) are custom made, and likely they could use ASIC's in there that are custom as well. I have never opened a dcs remote, but i would bet my description is accurate. With a relatively low vume sales item like dcs, how many replacement remotes do they sell? How many new dcs units do they sell each year that require manufacturing new tiu w remote vs sold from inventory. Kind of like bto, vendors on custom products require minimum size runs, and it is not unlikely given how small demand is for replacement remotes (new sales w remote likely are still in inventory), it doesn't pay, and eventually the vendor will not continue on with waiting for an order, and getting a new vendor is not cost justified...that is likely why components can become unavailable, it isnt like buying memory or a cpu chip or eeprom where they are plentiful.

I haven't been a fan of MTH generally because of the Proto-1 debacle a decade++ ago.  In fact, I sold off all my MTH locs 5-6 years ago (except a very unusual PS-1 loc - converted to TMCC) because I wanted just one system to run my trains with.

So, as the saying goes, I no longer have a "dog in this fight" over the form of DCS.

But, as an observer, I will say that it's really probable that MTH's move is too early in the evolution of devices. 

For ME, I like the tactile, one-hand remote (Legacy provides that with - IMO - a better/more reliable system).   I recently picked up a couple of LionChiefPLUS locs, and, in conjunction with Legacy, WiFi, B/T Lionel now provides a superior train-running environment at a VERY reasonable cost.

Not all users - including adults AND kids adept at technology - will want to abandon the hand-held.

Move on if a manufacturer is doing something you don't like.

rthomps posted:

I haven't been a fan of MTH 

 

I pretty much stopped reading right here.

Rider Sandman posted:

RJR posted:

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

 

Politely, but I can assure you that the number of 90’s era components that are either not available or not available in their inititial form factors or cost points is massive. “Something that can accomplish the same thing”, even if available, requires a redesign of a 20-year-old controller in the best case. The idea that one could take a 90’s era circuit board and find a complete set of ASICs, chipsets, surface mount and sticklead devices, and mechanical components (e.g., button/switch  contacts) to mount to it in a cost effective and seamless manner some 20+ years later simply isn’t reality whether one accepts it or not. Keep in mind model railroading command and control was largely custom protocols.  The recent implementation of Bluetooth and WiFi is being phased in so that going forward there will always be “something that can accomplish the same thing” without the need to replace and update custom and expensive hardware and software protocols. 

But to your point, how expensive was a pc back then vs today. How expensive is a usb mouse today vs 20 years ago. Both of those devices received extensive r&d and thanks to it, not only did new technologies form, those "older" technologies got better and cheaper. If MTH is doing this to save money, I think some of us feel it is not exactly correct, if they invest just as much money as the app, they may come up with not only a new design but a better and cheaper one at that, just like those 90's products you speak of. 

Don't tell me "thumbwheels" are getting hard to come by when Dell gives you a free usb mouse with scrollwhell when you buy a $350 PC.

LONG LIFE THE REMOTE! (Sorry lmao I couldn't help my self, I'ma huge Star Wars and Star Trek fan so I just feel like this is Darth vs Luke or Shatner vs Khan!! 😂

In any case, no matter how this goes, I think there should be an alternative for those that don't want to use WiFi.

Goodnight everyone!

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

Don't tell me "thumbwheels" are getting hard to come by when Dell gives you a free usb mouse with scrollwhell when you buy a $350 PC.

Dell doesn't build the mouse, it's made by someone else who probable made a 1000 unit just today for dell or other manufactures. That scroll wheel is used in more than one style of mouse as well, it's easy for the 3rd party manufacture to build or buy 100,000 units because the know they will be used.

The MTH thumb wheel is custom made specifically for MTH, no other manufacture on planet Earth uses that part. Manufactures  of these parts eventually say order more now or you'll be finding someone else to make this part for you.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

Rider Sandman posted:

RJR posted:

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

 

Politely, but I can assure you that the number of 90’s era components that are either not available or not available in their inititial form factors or cost points is massive. “Something that can accomplish the same thing”, even if available, requires a redesign of a 20-year-old controller in the best case. The idea that one could take a 90’s era circuit board and find a complete set of ASICs, chipsets, surface mount and sticklead devices, and mechanical components (e.g., button/switch  contacts) to mount to it in a cost effective and seamless manner some 20+ years later simply isn’t reality whether one accepts it or not. Keep in mind model railroading command and control was largely custom protocols.  The recent implementation of Bluetooth and WiFi is being phased in so that going forward there will always be “something that can accomplish the same thing” without the need to replace and update custom and expensive hardware and software protocols. 

But to your point, how expensive was a pc back then vs today. How expensive is a usb mouse today vs 20 years ago. Both of those devices received extensive r&d and thanks to it, not only did new technologies form, those "older" technologies got better and cheaper. If MTH is doing this to save money, I think some of us feel it is not exactly correct, if they invest just as much money as the app, they may come up with not only a new design but a better and cheaper one at that, just like those 90's products you speak of. 

Don't tell me "thumbwheels" are getting hard to come by when Dell gives you a free usb mouse with scrollwhell when you buy a $350 PC.

LONG LIFE THE REMOTE! (Sorry lmao I couldn't help my self, I'ma huge Star Wars and Star Trek fan so I just feel like this is Darth vs Luke or Shatner vs Khan!! 😂

In any case, no matter how this goes, I think there should be an alternative for those that don't want to use WiFi.

Goodnight everyone!

You do realize that “PC” and “USB” - “personal computer” and “universal serial bus” - have been made in millions -perhaps billions - of copies, right?  The ASIC chipsets in a model railroading controller have been produced, by comparison, maybe - maybe - in the tens of thousands. Point to a thumbwheel for a mouse that fits - without redesign - to the DCS handheld control. Again, does a business the size of MTH spend its resources redisgning a 20-year-old interface to accept currently available commodity components or does it invest in other product improvements? They seem to have made a calculated decision based on the business case before them. 

H1000 posted:

rthomps posted:

I haven't been a fan of MTH 

 

I pretty much stopped reading right here.

Cool.  

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

I think there should be an alternative for those that don't want to use WiFi.

 

You can still run you trains conventionally. No remote of any type required.

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

So wait.. MTH didn't announce the cancellation of the original remote!!!!

I think the OP should please re-title the thread, it's rather misleading.

H1000, I ran conventional solely, from 1941 to 2002 (or whenever DCS was released).  I had my layout wired to give max control over locos, but no way could it compare with the operational flexibility of DCS--operating locos directly without regard to where they might be on the layout.

We now have a question of fact!  Did or did not MTH announce the forthcoming demise of the remote?

rthomps posted:

H1000 posted:

rthomps posted:

I haven't been a fan of MTH 

 

I pretty much stopped reading right here.

Cool.  

Yeah, I kinda forgot to make my regular visit to the Legacy & LC forums to rip on their products that I actually own and use everyday. Let me know when they get that Bluetooth app to run more than one engine at a time.

H1000 posted:

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

So wait.. MTH didn't announce the cancellation of the original remote!!!!

I think the OP should please re-title the thread, it's rather misleading.

I stand by my original title for the thread.  I have been in contact with Andy (V.P of Marketing for MTH). We discussed the remote as the one being referred to here.  I asked for permission to post his 5 point reply.  MTH has not given me permission to post it. They said in the absence of replacement parts available and the potential development cost it is a business decision.  This is not a rumor.  That’s what took me to MTH to confirm before posting.  Have run a business for 40 years and know the value of accuracy. 

Bottom line is that a remote should be developed if they want to satisfy remote users.  If you have an 19 year old design, it maybe time to evolve. This is the proverbial fork in the road.  That’s all.  In the end the market will dictate.

H1000 posted:

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

So wait.. MTH didn't announce the cancellation of the original remote!!!!

I think the OP should please re-title the thread, it's rather misleading.

No reference to DCS going away.  Only the 18 year old remote.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

H1000 posted:

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

So wait.. MTH didn't announce the cancellation of the original remote!!!!

I think the OP should please re-title the thread, it's rather misleading.

I stand by my original title for the thread.  I have been in contact with Andy (V.P of Marketing for MTH). We discussed the remote as the one being referred to here.  I asked for permission to post his 5 point reply.  MTH has not given me permission to post it. They said in the absence of replacement parts available and the potential development cost it is a business decision.  This is not a rumor.  That’s what took me to MTH to confirm before posting.  Have run a business for 40 years and know the value of accuracy. 

Bottom line is that a remote should be developed if they want to satisfy remote users.  If you have an 19 year old design, it maybe time to evolve. This is the proverbial fork in the road.  That’s all.  In the end the market will dictate.

Fair enough, good argument!

The remote will cease when it no longer becomes feasible to produce and that decision will come from MTH whenever it comes. No finite date, just don't depend on it sticking around forever.

Interesting that television makers still include a remote in all their TV sets, no matter how whizzy and modern.  Why do you think that is?  Why not just include a free downloadable app from the internet? I think the answers to these questions are fairly obvious.  A nice television remote is a lot easier to use than an app.  Example being my smart phone or tablet goes dark every 5-15 minutes without being used,  unless I'd like to have to recharge it a bazillion times a day. 

I like my smart phone and I use it all the time (well, an hour or two a day) to read email, texts, get news, weather, even get phone calls,  etc., but I don't see the attraction of making it the ONLY way of operating toy trains.  That's what MTH is now doing with their train sets (a big mistake, I think) and now MTH is suggesting this limitation for all of their trains in the future.  You want a physical remote?  Build one yourself .

Truth in advertising, I like the fact that all LionChief and LionChief+ locos come with their own remotes, and now will operate with their app by Bluetooth, or,  for the LC+, in conventional.  It's nice to have options as a consumer.  If Lionel stops making any physical remotes they will lose some consumers who like the physical remote. I'd rather give a 3 or 5 year old a Lionel Universal Remote than a Legacy remote or my iPhone, for example.

I wish MTH well, but this seems like a likely way to lose some market share.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

Rider Sandman posted:

RJR posted:

I find it difficult to accept the argument that components become unavailable.  Seems to me that there is always something that can accomplish the same thing.  Unlike the app, MTH doesn't need to put money into developing the remote.  I have 2 WIUs and 4 remotes at my layout, and rarely use the app. I want to run trains.

 

Politely, but I can assure you that the number of 90’s era components that are either not available or not available in their inititial form factors or cost points is massive. “Something that can accomplish the same thing”, even if available, requires a redesign of a 20-year-old controller in the best case. The idea that one could take a 90’s era circuit board and find a complete set of ASICs, chipsets, surface mount and sticklead devices, and mechanical components (e.g., button/switch  contacts) to mount to it in a cost effective and seamless manner some 20+ years later simply isn’t reality whether one accepts it or not. Keep in mind model railroading command and control was largely custom protocols.  The recent implementation of Bluetooth and WiFi is being phased in so that going forward there will always be “something that can accomplish the same thing” without the need to replace and update custom and expensive hardware and software protocols. 

But to your point, how expensive was a pc back then vs today. How expensive is a usb mouse today vs 20 years ago. Both of those devices received extensive r&d and thanks to it, not only did new technologies form, those "older" technologies got better and cheaper. If MTH is doing this to save money, I think some of us feel it is not exactly correct, if they invest just as much money as the app, they may come up with not only a new design but a better and cheaper one at that, just like those 90's products you speak of. 

Don't tell me "thumbwheels" are getting hard to come by when Dell gives you a free usb mouse with scrollwhell when you buy a $350 PC.

LONG LIFE THE REMOTE! (Sorry lmao I couldn't help my self, I'ma huge Star Wars and Star Trek fan so I just feel like this is Darth vs Luke or Shatner vs Khan!! 😂

In any case, no matter how this goes, I think there should be an alternative for those that don't want to use WiFi.

Goodnight everyone!

If mth was selling a product that had a large market you would be correct. Things like pcs and a wireless mouse are part of a huge market (pcs) that are generic products. There is little to nothing that is standard on a pc, that wireless mouse uses bluetooth ( standard) to connect to a bluetooth receiver (standard) which is on a serial port of some kind (standard),sending standard commands to windows through a driver. Pcs are cheap because the cpu's are produced in the millions by mutliple companies,ie competition,same with mother boards,ram,etc. DCC if the market was bigger would be dirt cheap,if millions of dcc units were sold each year woukd cause the price to plummet. Dcs and legacy have a tiny user base relatively and are proprietary, so there is no competition to cause mass production but more importantly not enough users to justify recreating the remote,redesigning it for available components, getting custom things like the asics made.the thumbwheel as a device is not unique, but the implementation can be, the thumbwheel on the mth remote was likely designed to work a certain way,to fit the space, to feel a certain way, the wheel on the dell mouse wouldn't work on the mth unit or vice versa likely. It is similar to people comparing tv sets to o gauge engines, mass production only reduces costs for markets with large enough markets to drive competition and innovation that reduces costs,pure and simple. Trains aren't even remotely like pcs, where the highest level model year 1 next year becomes the next model down at less cost, then year 3 is even cheaper. Lionel doesnt offer a legacy challenger with x,y,z features for let's say 1200 bucks,then 2 years later offering an upgraded model with several new features while selling the original one for 900 bucks,doesnt happen.

If you look on the Apple website, you can pick up a refurbished iPod Touch for $129.

I have bought a couple refurbished products from Apple before. You basically get a full warranty and the stuff look pristine.  Not a bad way to replace a dedicated controller. 

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the possibility that new code may be required to operate new locomotives in the future and the remote would not support that without a total redesign which would be expensive. With the app, code is not hardwired and is very flexible and can incorporate new engine design electronics. Just an alternative thought rather than MTH abandoning their loyal customers.   

patternpilot posted:

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the possibility that new code may be required to operate new locomotives in the future and the remote would not support that without a total redesign which would be expensive. With the app, code is not hardwired and is very flexible and can incorporate new engine design electronics. Just an alternative thought rather than MTH abandoning their loyal customers.   

That was mentioned in the DCS Dinner by the MTH people that there will be a time when the app will do more than the remote can.

patternpilot posted:

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the possibility that new code may be required to operate new locomotives in the future and the remote would not support that without a total redesign which would be expensive. With the app, code is not hardwired and is very flexible and can incorporate new engine design electronics. Just an alternative thought rather than MTH abandoning their loyal customers.   

That likely is one of the things they are thinking of, that there could be a feature added to an engine or accesory or operating car that requires a new command sequence to activate,one that the remote either isn't capable of addressing (for example, 16 bit address and a command id >65536) or there is no entry method (button,scroll wheel,etc) available that would lend itself to using it. One thing I can think of,if they want to simulate a dispatcher yelling at the engineer (you) for going too fast or telling him (you)  to take the next siding because of a delayed train w higher priority, the app can be coded to do this role and given devices have a speaker you can hear it, with a remote you couldn't do this,would be like having a radio in the cab. Or conversely, in theory the ap could respond to voice commands, and you could play dispatcher, say 'engine 225,be prepared to take siding 6 and wait until cleared to proceed' and the engine would slow down and when it reached the siding (perhaps they would have some sort of rfid that identified a switch uniquely the engine can read) it slows down, clears the switch based on another sensor,then stops until you give the okay to go (obviously this isn't offered today, the two way 'conversation' between the app and the wiu and engine isnt there yet,but could be).

  It's a cost deferment. Buttons and hardware cost too much, easier switch responsibility to other hardware is the bottom line. What you prefer is irrelevant if the bulk follows... and oh yes, they will chase the tech.

   Welcome to "conventional status" on the mfg. radar 

We know the feeling of pleading "It's such a small thing to leave command to upgrade kits" . 

 Just sayin'... Good luck hunting a lifetime of remotes.

As far as parts go, availability has always been an issue on some parts as far back as you'd like to go.  Making something work your own way is a part of model railroading  

Keith L posted:

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

Dave45681 posted:

SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

I have read that on this forum before and that might be true BUT!!! to your logic, those said discontinued components have either gotten cheaper to manufacture or a cheaper alternative has been created to replace it.

Electronics get cheaper, smaller, and then replaced with something even cheaper and even smaller and so on and so on.

So MTH doesn't want to re-engineer the remote with modern components does indeed make sense but don't blame the parts, they can be found one way or another. That costs prohibit those changes is a different deal of course.

At this year's LCCA meeting in Chicago in July, I heard Lionel's president, Howard Hitchcock, say that for small businesses like model train companies, dealing with parts obsolescence is a complicated and costly issue. Unlike the Apples of the world who have components made to their specifications, the train companies have to work with whatever components are currently being made. Adaptations are possible to a certain extent, but, at some point, when too many key components no longer exist, you just can't make the product without making the investment to totally re-engineer it. This will likely happen to Legacy somewhere along the line; however, at this time, Lionel has produced a large inventory of Legacy items, including remotes, and will be able to continue to supply the market for a number of years.

Look at the quality of the products being shipped. I wouldn't give "H" the time of day in regards to where the market is going. Nor, the future of a remote. Hopefully, Someone that has "Pazazz" takes the helm!

L.I.TRAIN posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Very disappointing to me.  I prefer the remote.  I think MTH is making a mistake they will likely regret down the road.  Also, if you have more than one TIU, you have to buy WiFi for each of them, imagine how the operators of large layouts are going to react.

John

Totally Agree with you. Poor decision on MTH's part. BTW the TMB club runs DCS with 5 TIU's  in Super Mode, so a change will require 5 WiFi packages. I like as it is now with WiFi as a user option, so MTH should continue to offer both

The Remote is needed, very big mistake Mr. Wolf.

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

L.I.TRAIN posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Very disappointing to me.  I prefer the remote.  I think MTH is making a mistake they will likely regret down the road.  Also, if you have more than one TIU, you have to buy WiFi for each of them, imagine how the operators of large layouts are going to react.

John

Totally Agree with you. Poor decision on MTH's part. BTW the TMB club runs DCS with 5 TIU's  in Super Mode, so a change will require 5 WiFi packages. I like as it is now with WiFi as a user option, so MTH should continue to offer both

The Remote is needed, very big mistake Mr. Wolf.

Sigh... no decision has been made. They basically said that when the time comes that they are no longer able to make the current remote, it will be  discontinued.  That could be next year, the next five years, or in a couple of decades. That also doesn't mean that something else may be in the works when that day arrives to replace said remote.

After having the app, it's a lot faster to add lash  ups or anything,  good bye to the remote. I had a iPad with the big screen just for running trains. Best way I've ever run them. But I went back to postwar completely so.... what do I know lol

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

Jeff,

I agree with you 100% but realize the nature of this forum has become such that it is more fun, seemingly, for people to complain.  And then there is a contingent that is either a Lionel or MTH fan and will jump on the other firm whenever the opportunity presents itself.  As a long time hobbyist, my view is that Lionel, MTH, Williams and others are offering great products right now.  We have it very good in this hobby, as compared to when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and a new paint scheme on a crappy running wobbly diesel was exciting.  Now we have something for everyone, from postwar enthusiasts to the scale end of the hobby. 

The reality is that there are DCS remote handhelds available for the foreseeable future.  When the time comes that the availability of the internals is a problem, MTH is giving people plenty of advance warning that in this day and age, when people use phones for everything, they are not going to spend what will likely be hundreds of thousands of dollars redesigning a remote from the early 2000s.  Instead, folks will need to learn to use the app or store up some spare remotes.  In the alternative, it might all become moot as things may move to a universal standard.  That's really all, as you said.  No one is snatching the product for arbitrary reasons.  As was raised during the whole TMCC upgrade availability controversy when Lionel announced the end of ERR, MTH is giving people plenty of warning that hardware won't be available forever.  But as I suspected when Lionel discontinued TMCC upgrade hardware, sometimes you just cannot make people happy (3rd Rail picked it up and then people started complaining because they charged more!!) and so you have to just do what is best for the firm.  If I am Howard Hitchcock or Mike Wolf and I read this forum regularly -- that's what I've concluded - that there is no way to keep certain people happy so you do what is best for the firm, in your judgment, and you move on.

I never thought I would say this, but I think it is time for the moderators to perhaps start deleting threads again.  I enjoy the forum for the hobby advice but the constant stream of complaints ("my new Niagra won't do X!  It's a disgrace!") is really old and reflects poorly on the hobby.

Best regards.   

Ray Lombardo posted:

Captaincog posted:

Wow.

I was at the DCS dinner and what I heard must have been completely ignored. MTH stated their focus in on the Wifi and tablet/phone apps but would continue to manufacture and support the DCS remote as long as they could. Component obsolescence is the factor where MTH flatly stated if they cannot find something to do the job to make the DCS remotes in the future then MTH would be finished with the DCS remote.

I thought their discussion was fair and honest. There is supposed to be another shipment of remotes and parts coming in according to MTH. How did no one else hear this? 

If they stopped making DCS today there is still enough product out there to keep working for many years and likely beyond.

This sky is falling and focusing on the negative is beyond me.

The remotes are there and MTH is listening to their customers so go run some trains and enjoy the hobby.

Jeff,

I agree with you 100% but realize the nature of this forum has become such that it is more fun, seemingly, for people to complain.  And then there is a contingent that is either a Lionel or MTH fan and will jump on the other firm whenever the opportunity presents itself.  As a long time hobbyist, my view is that Lionel, MTH, Williams and others are offering great products right now.  We have it very good in this hobby, as compared to when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and a new paint scheme on a crappy running wobbly diesel was exciting.  Now we have something for everyone, from postwar enthusiasts to the scale end of the hobby. 

The reality is that there are DCS remote handhelds available for the foreseeable future.  When the time comes that the availability of the internals is a problem, MTH is giving people plenty of advance warning that in this day and age, when people use phones for everything, they are not going to spend what will likely be hundreds of thousands of dollars redesigning a remote from the early 2000s.  Instead, folks will need to learn to use the app or store up some spare remotes.  In the alternative, it might all become moot as things may move to a universal standard.  That's really all, as you said.  No one is snatching the product for arbitrary reasons.  As was raised during the whole TMCC upgrade availability controversy when Lionel announced the end of ERR, MTH is giving people plenty of warning that hardware won't be available forever.  But as I suspected when Lionel discontinued TMCC upgrade hardware, sometimes you just cannot make people happy (3rd Rail picked it up and then people started complaining because they charged more!!) and so you have to just do what is best for the firm.  If I am Howard Hitchcock or Mike Wolf and I read this forum regularly -- that's what I've concluded - that there is no way to keep certain people happy so you do what is best for the firm, in your judgment, and you move on.

I never thought I would say this, but I think it is time for the moderators to perhaps start deleting threads again.  I enjoy the forum for the hobby advice but the constant stream of complaints ("my new Niagra won't do X!  It's a disgrace!") is really old and reflects poorly on the hobby.

Best regards.   

Hi Ray,

I am sorry you feel that way/view this discussion in such a manor. This is a forum after all and by definition, a place to express and discuss. If you feel one way, we are more than happy to hear what you have to say, but please dont say we are wrong in any way in expressing our feelings on a platform literally designed to do so. I think this forum is one of the most powerful tools we have. I love it exactly as it is and I appreciate every view, be it in line with my own or not.

I am sorry if anything that I have personally said came off as whining, to me I was just expressing my opinion.

Its announcements like this by MTH, problems with products by other. Getting replacement parts, etc.. That is taking the fun and enjoyment of Model Railroading away for me. Its not the change of controlling, but its that I may not have a choice nor "how I like to operate" that is taken away.

Nuff said from me on this but if so, looks like future funds will go in a different direction and different hobby. I'm losing the enjoyment with these type of announcements.

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

There is frequent mention in the thread about the ability of the app to have more features added.  I wonder how many serious operators want more of the chaff, as opposed to the ability to control trains independently and operate switches and accessories remotely, which we already have in the remote. 

I need the remote as my layout is in the garden and about 200 feet from my house.

Paul

Paul,

Not really.

Just operate in MTH mode, where the smartphone or tablet communicates directly with one or multiple TIUs.

If this comes to pass, I won't buy any new MTH engines. Using the DCS remote is fun - and I have no desire to run trains from a Smart device.

Hi Folks,

I meant to post our position to the thread yesterday after interacting with Bryant earlier in the day, but got a bit busy and flat out forgot.  Anyway, it's great to read the comments and sense the passion everyone has about model trains, M.T.H. and our DCS system.  We follow the OGR Forum (and other online forums) daily so we're aware of the interest in this topic.  Below are a few points about the evolution of DCS for your consideration.

1. We are still producing the remotes and still market them in our catalogs (it's prominently featured on page 9 of the just-published 2019 Volume 1 catalog). We expect the production run currently in process will provide us with enough inventory to last a sufficient period of time. That run will include spare parts (typically thumbwheels and LCD screens) for our service needs.

2. This past February we did kill off the sku that featured the combo pack of the TIU and Remote (item number 50-1001) when we released our 2018 Ready-to-Run Train Set and Accessory catalog. That sku has been replaced with item 50-1036 which is a combo pack of the WIU and TIU.

3. We believe our current marketing approach to create a combo pack of WIU and TIU is a solid strategy given (1) the significant incursion of smart devices in homes today (remember, the WIU can be controlled by a smartphone or a tablet) and (2) the continued likelihood that such devices will become even more ubiquitous in our lifestyles moving forward. In short, we believe there is no escaping smart devices and the ever-increasing familiarity with such devices will offset the occasional forum reference that a smart device can't replace the "touch and feel" of the remote.

4. When embarking on the development of WiFi/Smart Device control of DCS, we were, in fact, very concerned that one would miss the interaction between train and layout when operating DCS if you had to spend an exorbitant amount of time looking at the screen rather than watching the action. We realized, however, that smart device control over DCS was far more intuitive and faster (especially when accessing most DCS features) than when using the DCS remote. Because more information is on the larger, color smart device screens than the four-line gray-scale LCD screen of the remote, there is actually less to remember when using the smart device. And, there is no question that WiFi is a much faster protocol than the 900mhz radio transmission of the DCS remote.

5. At some point in the future, the remote in its current form will likely become obsolete because of component end-of-life issues. What this means is that some of the components (typically the processor) will cease to be produced by the component manufacturers. When that occurs it requires we spec a substitute processor that may or may not exist in the component marketplace and typically incurs a redesign of the board itself if the product is going to continue to be offered in our DCS lineup. If the former occurs (no substitute processor exists) then the latter can't happen. Additionally, the latter will incur costs that we may deem too expensive to pursue. Remember, this is an 18-year-old device that has largely remained unchanged since its release in the year 2000.

6. There is no question that when the DCS Remote reaches end-of-life, M.T.H. could develop a replacement remote that would retain the touch and feel that is important to current remote owners. However, in today's dollars and with such a small target market, the costs to develop that remote (and hope it equals or exceeds the life of the current 18-year-old remote in our product line) would likely result in a device at least as costly as the current remote. As smart devices become more and more ubiquitous, how many customers can we reasonably expect to shell out $200.00 for a device that still wouldn't be as powerful as the smart device they either already own or will own in time? Is that the right allocation of our funding in today's marketplace?

7. When we introduced Proto-Sound 2.0 and DCS in 2000, we continued to offer conventional transformers and conventional locomotives (those without modern electronics and features even though Proto-Sound 2.0 and later engines can be operated in conventional mode) because we knew some segments of the target market would not find the modern features appealing. Over the next decade, conventional locomotive sales fell to such a low point that they were discontinued. In short, the market evolved as the overwhelming majority of consumers realized that modern features made those locomotives more fun. A similar approach is now happening with smart devices and WiFi control even as the DCS Remote remains a part of our product line. The difference this time is that the transition will take less than ten years, seem less jarring and be a less expensive process.

8. Finally, moving forward, the DCS Remote can and will still operate alongside the DCS App and a smart device that is controlling existing DCS TIUs just as they did when we transitioned to Proto-Sound 3.0. The beauty of the DCS system is that for 18 years it has evolved - an impressive feat within the world of technology. The software inside the TIU and the Remote is markedly different than when it first appeared when DCS was initially released. We've provided those software enhancements to our consumers for free the entire time. We've gone above and beyond to allow customers to bring that initial hardware up to the same feature set as today's hardware. We're certainly not trying to abandon that approach moving forward. Indeed, app releases with new features - like a playable horn in 2019 Premier Diesels - are a great example of that continuing approach. But even if the remote can still be produced for another dozen years, not all of those features will be accessible in a hardware design that old. Already, users controlling Lionel Legacy features with the Premium version of the App cannot replicate those functions with the DCS Remote. The remote, like a TV that can't reproduce 4K video, simply isn't capable. It's too old.

Andy Edleman posted:

Hi Folks,

I meant to post our position to the thread yesterday after interacting with Bryant earlier in the day, but got a bit busy and flat out forgot.  Anyway, it's great to read the comments and sense the passion everyone has about model trains, M.T.H. and our DCS system.  We follow the OGR Forum (and other online forums) daily so we're aware of the interest in this topic.  Below are a few points about the evolution of DCS for your consideration.

1. We are still producing the remotes and still market them in our catalogs (it's prominently featured on page 9 of the just-published 2019 Volume 1 catalog). We expect the production run currently in process will provide us with enough inventory to last a sufficient period of time. That run will include spare parts (typically thumbwheels and LCD screens) for our service needs.

2. This past February we did kill off the sku that featured the combo pack of the TIU and Remote (item number 50-1001) when we released our 2018 Ready-to-Run Train Set and Accessory catalog. That sku has been replaced with item 50-1036 which is a combo pack of the WIU and TIU.

3. We believe our current marketing approach to create a combo pack of WIU and TIU is a solid strategy given (1) the significant incursion of smart devices in homes today (remember, the WIU can be controlled by a smartphone or a tablet) and (2) the continued likelihood that such devices will become even more ubiquitous in our lifestyles moving forward. In short, we believe there is no escaping smart devices and the ever-increasing familiarity with such devices will offset the occasional forum reference that a smart device can't replace the "touch and feel" of the remote.

4. When embarking on the development of WiFi/Smart Device control of DCS, we were, in fact, very concerned that one would miss the interaction between train and layout when operating DCS if you had to spend an exorbitant amount of time looking at the screen rather than watching the action. We realized, however, that smart device control over DCS was far more intuitive and faster (especially when accessing most DCS features) than when using the DCS remote. Because more information is on the larger, color smart device screens than the four-line gray-scale LCD screen of the remote, there is actually less to remember when using the smart device. And, there is no question that WiFi is a much faster protocol than the 900mhz radio transmission of the DCS remote.

5. At some point in the future, the remote in its current form will likely become obsolete because of component end-of-life issues. What this means is that some of the components (typically the processor) will cease to be produced by the component manufacturers. When that occurs it requires we spec a substitute processor that may or may not exist in the component marketplace and typically incurs a redesign of the board itself if the product is going to continue to be offered in our DCS lineup. If the former occurs (no substitute processor exists) then the latter can't happen. Additionally, the latter will incur costs that we may deem too expensive to pursue. Remember, this is an 18-year-old device that has largely remained unchanged since its release in the year 2000.

6. There is no question that when the DCS Remote reaches end-of-life, M.T.H. could develop a replacement remote that would retain the touch and feel that is important to current remote owners. However, in today's dollars and with such a small target market, the costs to develop that remote (and hope it equals or exceeds the life of the current 18-year-old remote in our product line) would likely result in a device at least as costly as the current remote. As smart devices become more and more ubiquitous, how many customers can we reasonably expect to shell out $200.00 for a device that still wouldn't be as powerful as the smart device they either already own or will own in time? Is that the right allocation of our funding in today's marketplace?

7. When we introduced Proto-Sound 2.0 and DCS in 2000, we continued to offer conventional transformers and conventional locomotives (those without modern electronics and features even though Proto-Sound 2.0 and later engines can be operated in conventional mode) because we knew some segments of the target market would not find the modern features appealing. Over the next decade, conventional locomotive sales fell to such a low point that they were discontinued. In short, the market evolved as the overwhelming majority of consumers realized that modern features made those locomotives more fun. A similar approach is now happening with smart devices and WiFi control even as the DCS Remote remains a part of our product line. The difference this time is that the transition will take less than ten years, seem less jarring and be a less expensive process.

8. Finally, moving forward, the DCS Remote can and will still operate alongside the DCS App and a smart device that is controlling existing DCS TIUs just as they did when we transitioned to Proto-Sound 3.0. The beauty of the DCS system is that for 18 years it has evolved - an impressive feat within the world of technology. The software inside the TIU and the Remote is markedly different than when it first appeared when DCS was initially released. We've provided those software enhancements to our consumers for free the entire time. We've gone above and beyond to allow customers to bring that initial hardware up to the same feature set as today's hardware. We're certainly not trying to abandon that approach moving forward. Indeed, app releases with new features - like a playable horn in 2019 Premier Diesels - are a great example of that continuing approach. But even if the remote can still be produced for another dozen years, not all of those features will be accessible in a hardware design that old. Already, users controlling Lionel Legacy features with the Premium version of the App cannot replicate those functions with the DCS Remote. The remote, like a TV that can't reproduce 4K video, simply isn't capable. It's too old.

Thank you Andy.    I knew you would respond and it is much appreciated.  Great meeting Mike and your staff at York.  I'm hooked.

Thanks very much, Andy, for your input to this thread and for explaining, succinctly and clearly, the position of the manufacturer and the logic involved in making these types of decisions. I'm an "old fart" who cut his teeth with conventional control, graduated to handheld remotes, and am now venturing into the world of WiFi, Bluetooth, and who-knows-what next. If I can adapt through the learning curve, anyone can.

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

Very doubtful, to say the least. The wifi interface itself is industry standard and the hardware to support that is plentiful and cheap, and the beauty of using a tablet/smartphone is the hardware doesn't matter, it is totally based in software. If a new OS comes available on a new platform, the app can be ported there. Not to mention that the same thing applies to the current TIU hardware that the remote connects to, and it has been out there for 18  years and is still kicking away from what I can tell....not to mention that the TIU/WIU is the core of MTH's business, all their engines are command control. 

There is another benefit I could only speculate on (and that is all it is), the mobile app sometime in the future could allow for something like lionchief, to allow direct connection to an engine via wifi (the only problem with that is switching from one engine to another the way the TIU does isn't as simple with wifi, each engine would have to have its own wifi id and switching would be the smart device switching what wifi it connects to..), saves the tiu and wiu in theory. 

Thanks, Andy, for a great reply, appreciate letting people know what is going on. One thought I had, right now you support Android and IOS, any thought of supporting windows? With the ultra light notebook/notepad hybrid like the MS Slate or the like models made by other manufacturers, those would be practical for train control as well because they are both a laptop and a tablet, and they are pretty light, plus  support touch screen control via windows 10/11. 

I understand the problems with the current remote. I struggle outside to run my G scale with a phone. I just can't see it. I try to go into the shady areas but it is very difficult.

 I do like the app's features used thru my phone. I like the playable whistle while keeping the engine controls active for example. So I would be willing to forget the remote if possible. I wonder if a remote could be built out of a phone that would still have dedicated buttons for control? I read the cost guess above and can only say I would be a buyer if I continue running outside.

 I feel that I would be pushed into using a different brand of control if there's no usable option with DCS outside. Having to stand inside my shed to run trains, I feel like I'm tethered to the TIU.

 I will look forward to the app's development in the future. I think there maybe a lot more it could do if the current remote was trashed?

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

I hate to admit it, but with each new advance in technology, Brio Trains are starting to look more and more appealing to me. 

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

I would assume that MTH is looking for the software to evolve on the iPad, which it can do. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of evolution in a solid state handheld. 

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

I guess the Russians already hacked my railroad:

Rusty

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

Just run conventional if you think there would be a problem.

MartyE posted:

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

I was just thinking that.

Carl Peduzzi posted:

shawn posted:

Ya know what - I Have to laugh. The parts in the wireless interface can meet a end of life. The iPad experience is nothing like a hand held controller.

I would assume that MTH is looking for the software to evolve on the iPad, which it can do. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of evolution in a solid state handheld. 

Plus, Apple sells more iPads and iPhones than all the model train companies combined sell trains, so Apple can better afford the costs when a component reaches end of life.

Rusty

Engineer-Joe posted:

I understand the problems with the current remote. I struggle outside to run my G scale with a phone. I just can't see it. I try to go into the shady areas but it is very difficult.

 I do like the app's features used thru my phone. I like the playable whistle while keeping the engine controls active for example. So I would be willing to forget the remote if possible. I wonder if a remote could be built out of a phone that would still have dedicated buttons for control? I read the cost guess above and can only say I would be a buyer if I continue running outside.

 I feel that I would be pushed into using a different brand of control if there's no usable option with DCS outside. Having to stand inside my shed to run trains, I feel like I'm tethered to the TIU.

 I will look forward to the app's development in the future. I think there maybe a lot more it could do if the current remote was trashed?

Sunlight visible tablets and phones do exist and while Apple, Samsung and Google all build great phones, they are a bit marginal when it comes to their sunlight viewable aspects. There are rugged devices that perform much better in this area.

It wouldn't be hard at all for MTH or Lionel to develop a game-pad interface to be used with their apps. There are tons of choices for smartphone / tablet game-pads on amazon that will give you the physical buttons you want as well as a way secure the device to the game-pad.

MartyE posted:

That’s a bit paranoid. 

A bit??

Joe,

I don’t run outdoors so have not experienced the sunlight issue that you describe. However, have you tried both Apple and Android devices, as well as the Kindle Fire?

Regardless, you could try rigging a “sunshade” on your phone or tablet to reduce glare.

bigkid posted:

sinclair posted:

Without a remote I will definitely not be getting DCS.  But since PS-3 locomotives are DCC, then I'll just control them that way.

Mike was at my LHS a year or so ago and I went down.  He was hyping the app and WiFi.  Went to try to put it on my phone, and couldn't, my phone was too old.  It was an iPhone, but not the latest and greatest, and the app needed a newer version of iOS then I had.  So with a puzzled look (Like "Why would someone not have the latest and greatest?"  Sorry, not all of us are made of money.) he handed me and my son his phone to try the app with.  I spent enough time with it to know that I'd never like running my trains that way.  And my son kept pushing the physical button on the phone, zero interest in the touch screen, so that told me the app was a no go for him to.  Kids love real buttons.

Unless your apple phone was really old, IOS upgrades don't cost anything. There does come a time when older phones don't have the resources to run a newer version of the OS, but there are plenty of apple devices out there not of the latest generation that run IOS 11 and will run IOS 12 when it is fully released (if it already hasn't been).  Not questioning if you run an older phone or why, I understand what you are saying, but unless you need new hardware OS upgrades don't cost anything. 

It's a 4s.  Yes it's old.  I don't believe in going out and getting the new iPhone every year.  I use it until it absolutely doesn't work any more.  And if I did get the newest iPhone I wouldn't be able to use over 75% of the apps I do use because they haven't been updated in equally as long, nor are they even in the app store anymore.  But then I'm one of the guys that is still unhappy that Apple quite making iPods.  I am not a fan of all-in-one type devices.  If I ever do get DCS, I wouldn't ever run my TMCC/Legacy locomotives with that remove even though it can.  I like to keep things separate.  It's easier to control and keep track of things.  I do have a universal remote for my TV/DVD/Radio and such, but find it much faster to just pick up the 2-3 dedicated remotes and control things that way then trying to find the controls in the touch screen of the universal remote.

It's good that someone from MTH did post.  But there is one point I'd like to make.  They talked of how they dropped conventional locomotives because people stopped buying them.  That makes sense since they offered both conventional and command at the same time.  But the logic is flawed in trying to apply that to WiFi verses remote like they did.  To really know if this is what currently works in the market they need to offer both the TIU/Remote and TIU/WiFi bundles at the same time.  By dropping the remote bundle, of course the WiFi bundle is going to sell, it's the only bundle out there.  Most new to the hobby won't realize they can buy the TIU and remote separately as their LHS won't tell them that, they'll only offer info on the bundle.  If MTH had offered both bundles for at least 2 years and then said they dropped the remote bundle because of poor sales, then there would be no question they made the best market choice.

I recently asked around the office if anyone had an old Android tablet they were no longer using.  One of my co-workers brought me an ASUS tablet that is a few years old but runs the MTH app without any issue.  It's only connected to the Wifi module and not the internet so I have no security concerns with it. 

While I'm not giving up my remote yet, I appreciate the advantages that using a smart device brings to the hobby.  The other plus is my kids love their smart devices and it's already rekindled some interest in the train room.  Lionel or MTH cannot do anything about technologies march forward except jump aboard with it.

Danr posted:

MartyE posted:

paigetrain posted:

I WILL NOT run my trains with a device suseptible to HACKING , VIRUSES , CRASHES and GOVERNMENT SPYING ETC

call me a 23 year old nostagia man but transformers and DCS /LEGACY remotes are the only way trains will run on Allegheny Federation and Aurora Northern

That’s a bit paranoid. 

I was just thinking that.

Obviously, Danr and MartyE, you've both been fortunate you've never been hacked and gone through the utter hell of your identities being stolen and compromised, or you'd think otherwise. May such luck continue and not run out on either of you during your lifetimes.

Thanks Andy for the reply. Obviously, MTH can do what makes sense for it and each of us either needs to adjust or find an alternative we prefer.  I wonder, however, if MTH is forgetting one of the hobby basics:

MTH says its business card is its RTR sets. That's what attracted us and made us MTH exclusive customers for several years, as we were blown away by the value proposition and felt the same about the Premier line.  We entered the hobby around 8 years ago, when my twin sons were 5, by buying two RTR RK sets.  Within weeks, I bought the TIU and 2 handheld remotes.  My sons could run trains, under supervision, simultaneously and regardless of whether I was home. At that time, only I had a smart phone in our house, and it was issued from my job. It was a violation of work policy to download non-approved apps (most companies still have this policy) and I wasn't about to give my work phone to 5 year old boys while sober.  My sons only got smart phones this year and while they like trains, its only because they grew up with them.  

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future... 

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Here's my 2 cents, I'm a fan of simplicity and the "KISS" principle. I still use a flip-phone and just bought two steam LionChief locos to run on my DCS layout and am considering a third. At that point, I'll get a universal remote. I don't need trilling whistles nor all the other bells and baubles, just the basic functions that make running trains easy and fun. I only wish Lionel would make more scale engines in LionChief. It's too bad MTH didn't come up with this.

MichRR714 posted:

PJB posted:

If my situation had occurred after the handheld becomes no longer available, my options would be:  (a) download the app and risk getting fired and then use my phone to have each child have a consecutive turn playing with the trains - but only at night once I got home from work and on weekends if not traveling; (b) buy 2 smart phones purely for 5 year olds to run trains; (c) run MTH trains conventionally on a layout that has Legacy and command control Lionel engines, which are obviously preferable to conventional, or (d) not buy MTH trains.  

Not sure that adding difficulty will increase MTH's customer base for the future...

If you can afford the trains you can afford tablets that will support the MTH app.  Your arguments have no merit it today's reality.

Seriously?  Great discussion skills, sir. Well then, I suppose your arguments also have no merits as I can just as easily buy Lionel instead if I don't want my kids on tablets. Oh, and glad you've decided for me what I should spend my money on.   

For some time, it has been obvious that MTH would discontinue the handheld remote, and now it is official.  We don't have to like it, but we will have to live with it and learn a new way to operate trains.

Since the first leak of this, I have looked at my options, and I'm going to buy a second-hand iPad without a phone in it and just use it for train control.  Maybe I will buy another if needed.

For the foreseeable future, the existing remotes will be serviceable, and it may not be necessary for any of us over 50 to ever convert to phone or tablet,  but I'm going to do it anyway and become competent at that method.  No sense to fight progress.  Some things may work better.  The thumbwheel is slow and bothersome if one controls switches using the AIU and the handheld.  That's one improvement I look forward to.

Eccentric Crank posted:

Are  all the HO DCC companies dropping their remotes for a phone or an iPad?

I would bet the answer to that question is No. I am a big MTH fan who runs his MTH trains mostly with DCC. In the other scales like HO if a DCC manufacturer stopped making their their remote one could always buy another system that has remotes and still run all of their locomotives in command mode. I seriously doubt it will happen but if it did the user has an option since DCC is not a proprietary protocol. I am glad MTH will still support the remote for the near future. I hope the market is there for them to make a new remote some day down the line. 

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

Hudson J1e posted:

.................. I hope the market is there for them to make a new remote some day down the line. 

MTH's statements pretty much define that they are not interested in being in the remote hardware design business again.  The only way I would see that changing is if NO ONE adopted the Wi-Fi using a separate device.

Obviously from this thread, there are many who ARE going that path, and some embrace it fully.  Unless that was to do a 180 for some reason, I doubt very much MTH ever invests in designing a "New and Improved" version of the existing remote.

-Dave

Someone mentioned running MTH trains on DCC.  For the uninitiated how well does this work?   What are the pros and cons of DCC with MTH.  What would a good DCC setup for a moderate O gauge  basement layout cost?

Thanks  Bill

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

PJB posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

Look guys, nobody is whining. I hate that when someone's opinion doesn't align with yours it automatically becomes a negative, in this case whining.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this forum is the perfect platform to express those said opinions. If not here then where?

Fun is a relative thing, some of us find smoke units for example fun and others don't and as a result manufacturers have given us the ability to turn off a smoke unit in the event you don't want to use it, in other words the manufacturer is giving you options. Those of us that want to use a remote just simply want that an option if we so choose not to use Wi-Fi. It may be more fun for us to use a remote then to use Wi-Fi.

Please don't bash people for giving their input and reasons why we don't agree with the change, it's just an opinion and if you don't like it that is fine, Express the fact that you don't feel the same way but don't call the other people's opinions whining when all we are doing is simply expressing ourselves at no cost to you or anyone else.

If we can't express our views then how will the manufacture know if what they are doing is in line with the customers reviews, I am sure MTH will read all of our opinions and make a judgement on them.

I just visited my local hobby shop and the owner is very good friends with Mike and he along with myself agree that the remote should stay, we have our reasons and even if they are not necessarily cost-effective reasons we still have the right to express our opinions as to why we feel MTH should invest in a new remote if parts are becoming obsolete for the old one.

I don't mean to bash you guys either others have said the same thing but I just want to make sure everyone is aware that this is a forum and this forum is here to express our opinions, simply be respectful to others opinions that's all I'm asking.

Happy Model Railroading!

PJB posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Seems like most of these comments are:

This is two hard

I don't like change

I can't figure out computers

I have a fear of new things

 

Guys read what the MTH rep said. For now the remote isn't going away. Even if it was your old remote will still work. Everyone keeps coming up with these situations that are obscure and only impact them. For everyone else it's fine. Change is fine. It happens. If there was no change we'd all still be lighting our homes with fire and salting our meat to preserve it. Adapt to change. It's much easier than fighting it. I deal with people at work every day who are resistant to change or adopting new technology and they turn to us for help, because they have been left behind. Society and economics don't bend to your whim. 

This is supposed to be a hobby. Something you do to relax. Chill out 

According to Andy, it sounds like this will be an improvement and so I will gladly embrace it when our remotes die.

I think you're right in that, no matter what the subject, this forum seems to attract a small group of people who only find joy in complaining and criticizing.  And sure enough they are chiming in here too. But I also think you might be missing the nuance that some of us are pointing out, which is that going to a smart phone might not be feasible, or might add difficulty in some cases.  As I said, the move is not an issue for me now.  But for folks entering the hobby with young children, they might not think it's a great idea to buy a $399 RTR RK set and then hand over their $950 Samsung 9S+ to a 5 year old in order to run the train.  

If I'm not mistaken doesn't every new MTH starter set come with DCS Explorer instead of a traditional transformer? If so the end user is still required to have some kind of smart device to run trains. So then the issue becomes do you let a kid use your phone or buy a tablet for them.

I'm not trying to bash anyone. I'm just trying to get people to relax and analyze the facts. The remote isn't going away yet and if it does it can be dealt with later. You can run stuff either way. The remote won't be in the bundle. Instead you can buy a TIU and remote separately. This whole thread seemed to get a little out of hand with speculation. Fortunately a MTH representative stepped in and cleared everything up. 

Again everyone relax. It's a hobby. I'm pretty sure we all have things in our life to worry about.