I have no idea what everybody is arguing about. It really comes down to this, buy what you like, buy what you can afford. Nothing else matters.

Not yet but in a few years of operating.But maybe I am jumping the gun here.Only time will tell.I don,t know about you but my trains operate on ac.Now 2 rail operates on dc.

Not at all.  Just my opinion on what I happen to see as a game changer And more desirable.  Not sure the majority agrees or it seems we would be reticent to buy locomotives that didn't include some or all of these features. Yet the engines without these features still dominate the pages of most manufacturers' catalogues. 

PJB

        I do think Lionel has raised the bar on steam engines with their various smoke effects however the only one that I insist on is the smoking whistle. I have two both PRR engines The Lindbergh Atlantic and the K4 Modern Pacific. I did order the Legacy B6 but can understand why it does not include the smoking whistle due to its size. I did have issues with the Atlantic so I can understand Lionel not putting the smoking whistle in any small steamer. Lionel did fix my Atlantic and it's been smoking great for a while now.

        I do not own any MTH engines and feel they have to play catch up. Maybe they will with their new Big Boy release. I am a Lionel guy anyway so they will get my money but wish MTH good luck with their smoke effects.

JohnB

They keep raising the bar in a way with technology. If you look at LionChief + it seems that there is an effort to make the trains with full modern features more affordable. New old stock, overruns, surplus, used and closeouts have served my purpose well but the new LC technology is attractive and affordable.

Agreed, scale diesel and semi-scale steam that's what my budget is and I enjoy them all. 

I get it. Your specific example was the VLBB vs another manufacturer's. If you take the latest edition MTH BB, its pre-order price from most major dealers is about $1,500. That is really steep in my book but still about $400 less than the actual pre-order price of the VLBB. However, at that level of expense I doubt that anyone who was going to blow their train budget on one of these huge models would go for the less fully featured MTH version. 

But it's all a matter of what enjoyment you get out of operating features and what value you place on them when deciding whether you're prepared to pay the price. Personally I think Lionel's raised the bar for MTH except in relation to QC.

My view is that Lionel and MTH have saturated a shrinking market with trains of various price-points and quality, forcing out the smaller players.  K-Line, Weaver, and Marx Tinplate are all fallen flags now.

While MTH makes in-roads in European prototypes and continues to be the masters of Pre-War replicas, Lionel now goes after everything else from the low-end battery-operated drug-store G Gauge sets on up.

For a good example of the competitive market place, look at the MSRP of the new Williams by Bachmann GP-38's and the Lionel GP's, RS-3's, and Electrics.  The Lionel engines are packed with way more features at a lower price.  Now I can hear the howls of "but... METAL GEARS!" from the Williams crowd, but as Lionel learned long ago, the typical buyer CAN'T SEE metal gears.  They can see and hear sounds and smoke and paint and Electro-Couplers.

Jon

quote:

Since this discussion keeps going so far afield, here's yet another example:  assume Lionel and company XYZ issue  big boys. Lionel's is the VLBB version with the three speakers, depleting coal load and all the smoke features. XYZ version is identical in physical appearance and has only stack smoke and basic sounds from its one speaker. Both are issued at approximately the same price.  Do you differentiate?  Is one more desirable?

Does one have better operating characteristics, better reliability, or better fit/finish?

This is my personal feelings as well (aside from the railroads listed.)

This is just my opinion, but I would tire of the bells and whistles rather quickly.  On the other hand, I never tire of the beauty of a well detailed locomotive and will just sit at the train table and watch it go round and round and round the track!

Jim

One of my dreams, when I retire and move to new house, is to have some outdoor track so I can have a "live steam" locomotive!

Jim

The main question of this post was

Have Lionel and MTH irreversibly raised the bar?

Yeah, they have, but they haven't done enough to ensure quality and dependability and durability.

I mean, look at all the problems you guys are still having with Legacy since it first came out in 2007.  That's eight years ago.  And still there are posts on the forum of people having problems with it.  That's not good. Especially when it costs over $400.00 by the time you add up all the things you need to make it work.   Ground wires and such for trestle crossovers and things.

That is what Lionel and MTH should be working on to make it easier and more fun to run our trains.

And the MTH star wiring system is really difficult sometimes.   I know somebody who wired up his large track layout and it was always failing. He called MTH, told them about his layout, and they said he had too may star layout connections. It was screwing up the signals or something.  So, he cut the MTH star wiring connections to only three or four and it began to work.

Yeah, both Lionel and MTH need to concentrate on correcting all of their train problems before coming out with new products that may inherit all of the same problems of their previous products.

These are some good points. While I now like, didn't before, the VL BB coal feature, It seems that Lionel spent tons of man hours and money on it while they could have made an oil tender instead (as in the real 4014) and spent the same efforts/money on making their locos more reliable, adding 2R options, DCC capable...etc!!!

I must agree....It would seem that anything else is just a matter of opinion.

This thread started off correctly. It has evolved into a series of rants.(It would seem)

Happy Pappy,

Yes, I agree.  Overall, some good discussion since my OP.  I've learned a lot (and now have a better understanding) reading through the posts - like the value that some hobbyists put on a more accurately detailed locomotive over one with more mechanical features (which seems to be a motivation for paying as much or more for say a highly detailed brass model that has basic TMCC and only stack smoke over a somewhat detailed Legacy controlled steamer with stack and whistle steam). 

But I've also noticed that on a couple occasions I've needed to steer this thread toward its initial discussion purpose.  It seems there is a small but vocal minority that looks for opportunities to either complain or show off.  It's clear to me that some folks don't even read the OP or try to understand the topic (generalizing here).  For instance: an OP like "which do you prefer?" often results in non-responsive replies like "I hate company XYZ" or "look at what I built over the weekend using a steamer shell and some parts I bought for 2 cents at a local trade show."  Based on these dynamics, I am coming to the conclusion that some people started in the hobby at age 5 and haven't, over the ensuing decades, really progressed much.  An annoyance to be sure.  But on balance, not a big deal.  I believe the majority are engaged and involved for the right reasons - advancing the knowledge base and the hobby.   

Peter

Here, here!

The bar was raised when Lionel first offered the Southern Mikado and Reading T1 way back in the Kuhn era.

It passed the point of no return when MTH made their first locomotives.

Rusty

I'm glad the bar keeps going up. I remember how crazy the 70's and 80's were like.You had Lionel,K-Line and Williams. O scale steam was limited to 2 rail brass and Lionel Hudsons (700E,763,773,783,784,785)at that time. It all changed when that Lionel Reading 4-8-4 came out.

I'm happy with most of the big scale steam offerings from Lionel and MTH.They do have dry spells when there's no newly tooled offerings.During those times,I try to pick up locomotives I missed buying for any number of reasons.Lately, I've been buying CB&Q,GN,NP and Milwaukee steam locomotives I didn't have. 

I certainly expect a slowdown in the number of offerings in the next 1-20 years as the hobby changes. The build to order (Lionel) and small run (3rd rail) offering confirm the direction we're headed.I expect the bar to keep rising as technology progresses.