Well, I could tell you some stories of how my last sales went.

I guess I'd just say that I don't sell trains anymore. I have bought a bunch of used ones because of the great deals. I still ordered new ones too. I don't count on any pennies on the dollar. When I'm gone, they bring what they bring. While I'm here, I'll run 'em!

" on Sour mash and cheap wine " ??

Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!

Originally Posted by brianel_k-lineguy:

 

It's early in Lionel's BTO policy, so time will tell how willing dealers will be to continue to order extra units beyond actual customer orders. Right now the big dealers are doing this, but they'll learn very quickly how much of a risk this will be, and will adjust their quantities ordered accordingly. Which will not benefit the folks decide to wait. 

 

I totally agree with you on the BTO policy here. Only a matter of time and the dealers will be doing just as Lionel has.

I have had problems with a good share of the used ones I have bitten on.  So I like to stay new.  I just wait until I see the must have and pay the freight so to speak. I have been waiting for years for a couple of things I passed on new though, so it is sometimes a crap shoot.

While I shop for best price, I stay pretty much within the realm of what modern trains I am seeking based on the prototypes I am interested in.  My preference is typically Sunset / 3rd Rail / GGD as they tend to meet my interests most closely, but I am biased there.  Lately I have been on a F40 / FP45 kick, so K-Line and MTH fills those niches.  Depends if I am buying for my 2 rail or 3 rail collections also. 

Jonathan

 

I think this thread brings to us the Reality of where we are in the Hobby. In the 1950's, Post War Lionel/American Flyer/Marx (maybe more), we all wanted these trains, prices were high on the Hudson's, Berkshires, FM's, F3's, Accessories, Passenger Cars, Operating Cars, Trolly Cars, Gang Cars, Just Loads of trains....Now, as We thought things were Great, in the mid 90's, came TMCC....WOW, This brought me back into the Hobby, because, getting older, (not old), kids out of College and on their own, allowed me (and many others) to begin a collection of what We always wanted. CENTURY CLUB1, and 2, all the Post War Icons, with TMCC Were Re-Introduced by Lionel....So,here is where I am Leading to, with all the Duplication of Product, So many names, MTH,LIONEL, WEAVER, ATLAS O, SUNSET Third Rail, So Many Control Systems, Our Market is Flooded with Lots of Merchandise.

Yes, prices seem to be dropping on older equipment, and, it really is old, made in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's--to date....So, if you like old technology, it's a Buyers Market, if You like TMCC, DCS, the older is Cheaper, but, if You like Newer, More Realistic Movement, Sounds, lots of Bells and Whistles, You have to pay the Piper....Now you see why Lionel sells BTO....It protects them, the Dealers, and the Suppliers that make this the very best Hobby in the World....

Selling our older trains on this OGR FORUM is a very good way to keep the Hobby Alive, can we make money on every deal, No, but it's better than nothing. 

Good Thread, Thanks for Posting....

 

 

 

 

 

I've had as many problems with new locomotives as used. Mostly I fix them myself, unless it's a major problem that justifies the cost of shipping them to the company for warranty repair. Lionel has had chronic issues with smoke units for as long as I can remember. 
 
Originally Posted by wb47:

I have had problems with a good share of the used ones I have bitten on.  So I like to stay new.  I just wait until I see the must have and pay the freight so to speak. I have been waiting for years for a couple of things I passed on new though, so it is sometimes a crap shoot.

 

NOUS SOMMES TOUS CHARLIE-HEBDO!

This is indeed interesting thread, and the answers are so individual, based on one's collecting or operating preferences. I usually find what I am looking for in a used item. It has been a long time since I wanted something new. Fortunately, if I wait, even new items (of personal interest) have popped up on the secondary market at a significant discount. As an aside, I've also taken a hard look at everything and re-sold lots of things that I was just hanging onto - not necessarily using on the layout. I'll use those resources to get new 'used' things.

MTH PS3 re-issues of diesels often includes improvement to details like more-prototypical handrails, etc.  So you are not getting the same product with "just updated electronics".

 

Thnigs like the new Lionel 86ft boxcars, 86ft auto racks, Atlas Trinity 25000 tank cars, and the newly-announced Maxi-IV well cars are unprecedented in O scale, so despite their high cost you can't get older ones for cheap on the secondary market.

 

I'd rather have everything in PS3 so I can run it on DCC with no modification. 

As I have already right-sized my collection (and have very little left to sell), the used train market prices don't effect my new train purchases.

 

A couple of years ago, I decided that I wanted to have more prototypical trains.  So, I sold a bunch of stuff so that I could buy some newer offerings like 3rd Rail's Columbian and Train or Tomorrow sets.

 

Now, I'm pretty selective on my new purchases, and while I buy them new, have no plans to ever sell them.

 

Jim 

Formerly Historic Frederick County, Maryland.  Now close to Baltimore.  Modeling both the Reading and B&O Railroads.

 

Caleb 10/14/15 - 10/19/19, I'll miss you buddy!

I have nearly all of the "modern" engines I need.  Buying a $1K steamer is not in my future.  I can spend that $1K on other things in life that MAKE me money and happy too.

 

A recent find for me was this UPRR Turbine...$150 right off the guys layout during "garage sale days" here in town...

U.P.R.R...THE home of High HP Locomotives, both Steam & Diesel......

Originally Posted by Aldovar:
Originally Posted by Big_Boy_4005:

Anyone want some MPC cheap?

 

What's "cheap" and what have you got. Trying to grow out a pretty inexpensive o-27 set for my son and I. :-)

 

I'm guessing a list of what he doesn't have would be shorter...

 

2014-11-30 001 2014-11-30 008

 

...and that's not the entire stash either.

Jon

Originally Posted by Mill City:
 

I'm guessing a list of what he doesn't have would be shorter...

 

2014-11-30 001 2014-11-30 008

 

...and that's not the entire stash either.


Hah! Someday, my son and I's stash will be like that!

I have my first engine that my grandfather bought me back in the 80's when I was little. A Lionel 2055.

Well when I had my first son for his second birthday, I picked up a real nice 2035 that had a new smoke unit and serviced by my local repair technician.

We are having a new baby in December, and my 3 year old said, "Baby brother needs a train." That is what prompted the buying of the 565.

Getting back to topic, I have the fortune of a few really awesome LHS around me, one specializes in just used engines and the others all have new gear. I looked at buying a brand new RTR set for my boys and found even those at the 400 mark a bit of a barrier to entry. 30 something here with student loans/car/house payments and such doesn't leave a lot of room for buying new train stuff.



-Ed, O-27 trains and track, building out our little train empire one piece at a time.

 

KE8JLT

Buy'em..sell'em; it's all good.  In the 80+ year history of buying & selling used & NOS trains, they rarely brought more than the original MSRP. It was only in the late 70's thru about 2000 that the price bubble inflated for them. That was because the baby boomers who drooled over the catalogs in the 50's grew up and found out that Lionel was still making trains and that there were train shows where they could see again all the goodies they had lusted over in the catalogs when they were kids. 'Katie Bar The Door' the rush was on. 'Forget the mortgage and the new fridge; the kids new shoes can wait'. I think quite a few marriages were strained by the 'hobby' during that time. Anyway,the bubble has deflated so the guys who didn't go wild then can now pick up some nice items at affordable prices. I like to buy used excellent condition stuff on e-Bay. I don't want new in the box trains that have never been run..who knows if it even runs. Postwar, MPC, LTI and Lionel LLC up to the move to China is fair game in the hunt and an auction on e-Bay is a great place to find bargains. It's a buyers market because there have been so many trains made in the past 25 years that the market is flooded. The makers have to keep pushing the envelope on technology because if they stop they'll die. I do think the days of Postwar Reissues has run it's course, and it is long overdue. So now there has to be more 'wow' factor to a new offering or it just won't get bought.  I love to see steam blasting out of a whistle as she blows but it's not worth $1200 to me so the downturn in prices for modern trains is a blessing..except for one thing.  I'm gettin' too many trains. Time to quit buying but it was fun. I plan to keep 'em till I die and my last request is to put my ashes in a hopper car & run me around the layout.  

Nuff Said...

'Still in Training'

Tom

Charlotte

Is that because you prefer to get engines at blowout pricing while Lionel takes a bath on too many locos made?
 
Since you didn't specify any data, one would have to assume you are just looking out for yourself.  
 
Originally Posted by Tim Lewis:

BTO was not a great decision by Lionel in my opinion. 

 

Originally Posted by GregM:
Originally Posted by Aldovar:
Originally Posted by Big_Boy_4005:

Anyone want some MPC cheap?

 

What's "cheap" and what have you got. Trying to grow out a pretty inexpensive o-27 set for my son and I. :-)

Please add an email address to your profile or send me an email.  

Actually Greg, my email is in my profile. Always has been. Same as my screen name @ comcast.net and don't forget the underscores.

 

For those that are interested, I have over 1000 pieces of MPC and LTI. Best thing to do is send me a wishlist, then I can tell you which items I have and their condition, and we can work out a price. Mill City posted that photo of "the pile" because he really wants to see me sell this stuff. Of course he might faint if I actually do.

Charlie to me BTO period isn't a good decision who ever but can see why they do it but feel the lose sales doing it also. also feel that's why some get canceled as they don't get the production amount they want in pre-orders but sure they have made some and had a hard time selling. So in there behalf its a win/lose deal but anything could be  so they take the less risk by doing it to the higher cost engines which makes sense but probably hurts the actual sales of them. As if I would be someone to spend say $1500 on a engine ( which I'm not ) I would want to see it first and know I could return it without a problem.

Bill

Since I have no interest in purchasing anything newly made, but I am interested in the future of the hobby and the various manufacturers, I think I am relatively impartial.

 

I think the decision to go to the Build-To-Order system was a good solution. It allows Lionel to service what appears to be a limited market for their high end models. Otherwise its likely that the offering in that high end space would stop.

 

 

C.W. Burfle

I mainly buy what I can put my hands on anymore, so I don't care to do pre-orders as sometimes not enough is sold to do the production run, Lionel is guilty of that. Also some items in catalogs never get produced, so I will visit train shows or an auction site or the for sale section on here.

 

It might be over 10 years ago Lionel made a T-1 steam engine that sold for around $800.00 at most hobby shops, today I have seen that same steam engine go for around $200.00 on an auction site. So you can wait and prices will probably fall in a few years.

 

Lee Fritz

Philadelphia & Reading Railway, one of the first railroads in the USA, first to have a double track system in the USA.

I like the BTO format that Lionel has.  If I want it now I'll buy it.  If not maybe I'll see it come up in a few years.  I have bought things new and used and run everything I buy.  I already have more then enough but sometimes I just see a great deal and get it.  I also sell lots o stuff after I haven't run things in a while.  I usually sell something then purchase another thing to make up for that missing thing.  Seems like an endless circle of events, buy, run, sell?  But I like it!!!!

Stay frosty my friends,

laz57

TCA 03-55991

Originally Posted by Big_Boy_4005:
Originally Posted by GregM:
Originally Posted by Aldovar:
Originally Posted by Big_Boy_4005:

Anyone want some MPC cheap?

 

What's "cheap" and what have you got. Trying to grow out a pretty inexpensive o-27 set for my son and I. :-)

Please add an email address to your profile or send me an email.  

Actually Greg, my email is in my profile. Always has been. Same as my screen name @ comcast.net and don't forget the underscores.

 

For those that are interested, I have over 1000 pieces of MPC and LTI. Best thing to do is send me a wishlist, then I can tell you which items I have and their condition, and we can work out a price. Mill City posted that photo of "the pile" because he really wants to see me sell this stuff. Of course he might faint if I actually do.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I was asking Aldovar to send me an email message or put an email address in his profile.

 

****ETA****  I'm not buying trains these days.  I am looking to get rid of most (but not all) of what I have.

Greg

Great thread, Scott!  

 

I hit upon this point in somewhat of a round-about way a few days ago in another thread, but it fits right in here.  I think folks who have a surplus of trains and are short on layout, display, and storage space... but still have the propensity to buy still more... will NEED to resort to selling older trains.  They may want top dollar, but the market will bring them back to reality very quickly.  

 

And in most cases, sellers may take what they can get because they have their eye on new purchases.  Their overall goal will be to put out the LEAST amount of net new cash for these new purchases.  I actually think the importers are counting on this phenomenon, which is why they've priced some items where they have.  

 

Perfect example is the recently catalog'd Lionel FEF-3 at $1700 MSRP ($1350-$1450 street price).  Just in the prior year the Pennsy M1a had a $1500 MSRP ($1125 street price, give or take a few dollars).  Folks who were OK with the M1a's street price might now need to sell something in their roster to make up the difference for the higher FEF price.  If they sell an older item for $500, they now only need to shell out $900 for the FEF-3.  Importers like Lionel don't care how enthusiasts pay for the new stuff, but the new pricing structure is built on a house of cards (which can collapse with little warning).  As more folks try to sell older items to fund newer purchases, the reality of exactly how much of a toy train glut exists becomes painfully real.  

 

We shouldn't be all that surprised though.  Just look at how often dealers are having sales.  It's getting more rare to find a month when there ISN'T a sale going on!  

 

David

 

 

Originally Posted by scott.smith:

Define "modern"

...

I am referring to the Modern Era Trains 1970-Present.

...

This tends to track with the Greenberg definition.  But given we're now approaching year-end 2015 in a few months, that's a 45-year timespan.  The heydays of Lionel Postwar production were, what?, perhaps 15 years at the most?

 

The technology treadmill is moving too quickly nowadays to group so many "generations" of trains in this 45-year period.  I don't know what the correct cut-off years would be offhand, but we should probably put MPC into its own era, followed by LTI, then trains made in Korea (TMCC-era?), followed by trains made in China (present-day Legacy?).

 

Not perfect... But it may help define when folks of today may consider selling something "older" in order to make room for their newest purchases.

 

David

 

quote:


The technology treadmill is moving too quickly nowadays to group so many "generations" of trains in this 45-year period.  I don't know what the correct cut-off years would be offhand, but we should probably put MPC into its own era, followed by LTI, then trains made in Korea (TMCC-era?), followed by trains made in China (present-day Legacy?).

 



 

Traditionally, the  definition of the "Modern era" is anything made from 1970 on. The problem lies with some web site(s) that have taken it upon themselves to redefine the Modern era to mean something else.


I spent part of my career developing and documenting procedures, which included defining new terms and writing a glossary. As far as I was concerned, it was poor practice to try to redefine a commonly accepted term. It was better to find a new one. I think this still applies.

For more precision, people often do use more specific terms like "MPC","LTI" and "LLC".

 

It seems to me that some folks already do define train eras by the type of control, or where the trains are made.

 

It would be helpful to have these terms defined and published. It would probably take a group like the TCA, LCCA, or OGR to make it happen. Even so, with todays informal, free flowing peer to peer communications, it would be tough to make it stick.

C.W. Burfle

I have no means of purchasing new.  While the extra details are nice to look at, I like the durability of the late 90s - early 2000s locomotives better. 

 

While having sound is nice, command control is dated technology - and the current electronics are a future burden.   

 

So rather than waste my precious financial resources on command control and new locomotive options,  I'm buying used PS1/ PS2 / TMCC locos, with the plan to remove the electronics and replace them with RC or Bluetooth control. 

Great thread Scott,

 

From my point of view (as someone who actively buys on eBay,the forum and auction houses - Stout,NETTE,etc.daily)it's very true prices are soft and trending downward. I've found terrific deals on non-Legacy,Protosound and earlier PS2 full scale steam engines. Some of the prices have been just unbeliveble lately. I'm buying duplicates of favorites and also locomotives I somehow overlooked before. I've been able to get all the variations of the MTH first generation UP Challengers at bargain prices- too good to pass up.I love Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS but I don't have to have command or the latest gadgets on every loco I own.The early MTH Premier steam locomotives are still great looking and excellent running in my book. 

 

I too am somewhat alarmed with the prices on new items trending higher and higher.Example:  I just paid 1700.00 for a new Vision Big Boy.I got about 15 minutes of Wow! out of it. The last Big Boy I bought (#9) was a used Legacy #4024 for $800.00.That 15 minutes of Wow! was not worth the extra $900 to me.Indeed,I still get kicks from running my MTH PS1 #4012 from 1996! There's a lot of great locomotives out there on the used market and my want list is still long. 

 

Good topic Scott,

 

I am 79 now and thinking about unloading a lot of my collection which is mainly modern era stuff.  I sold all the postwar years ago when prices were good.  I am getting sticker shock though on selling used MTH for example and some Lionel.  For example, i have a bunch of the Lionel 80 foot flatcars with scale 40 ft. trailers that I paid around $89 plus tax from dealers, bringing less than half that on the market now.  One guy told me that he only paid $20 for one in the box with Pennsylvania trailers.  I expected to get at least half price for some things but that price is like giving it away.  I think I'll just run everything until I drop and let somebody else worry about selling it for whatever it brings.  Meantime, I buy very little but I like buying new.  I like some of the new WBB stuff for price and simplicity of things to go bad.  I picked up a MTH proto 3 AS616 in original Norfolk Southern livery only because it means something to me from my childhood but it would have to be something very special for me to buy much more modern stuff.

 

Ray

Originally Posted by Martin H:
Is that because you prefer to get engines at blowout pricing while Lionel takes a bath on too many locos made?
 
Since you didn't specify any data, one would have to assume you are just looking out for yourself.  
 
Originally Posted by Tim Lewis:

BTO was not a great decision by Lionel in my opinion. 

 

Blaming a consumer for wanting to buy what he wants when he wants it while paying as little as possible is not a realistic viewpoint, and customers have every right to be selfish as it's their money that greases the wheel of commerce.

 

Model railroading manufacturers are putting themselves into a tight little box by doing built-to-order, because it serves to compress an already thin and uneven market for their products. Please don't misunderstand--these companies are being forced to do this to survive, but taking this step is a limiting factor to long term growth.

 

Built-to-order is not a cure all, researching and developing and advertising a product costs money, and if said product is not produced there are costs involved. For companies like Lionel and Atlas build-to-order also leaves them vulnerable to competition from more responsive importer/manufacturers such as 3rd Rail, as 3rd Rail can get product to market quicker.

 

Jeff C

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by leikec:
 

Model railroading manufacturers are putting themselves into a tight little box by doing built-to-order, because it serves to compress an already thin and uneven market for their products. Please don't misunderstand--these companies are being forced to do this to survive, but taking this step is a limiting factor to long term growth.

 

Built-to-order is not a cure all, researching and developing and advertising a product costs money, and if said product is not produced there are costs involved. For companies like Lionel and Atlas build-to-order also leaves them vulnerable to competition from more responsive importer/manufacturers such as 3rd Rail, as 3rd Rail can get product to market quicker.

 

Jeff C

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTO is also happening in the HO world also.  Athearn and Walthers come to mind.  It's just that in HO there more folks available to order items and the LHS's are also more willing to take on some for stock.

 

Rusty

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:
Originally Posted by leikec:
 

Model railroading manufacturers are putting themselves into a tight little box by doing built-to-order, because it serves to compress an already thin and uneven market for their products. Please don't misunderstand--these companies are being forced to do this to survive, but taking this step is a limiting factor to long term growth.

 

Built-to-order is not a cure all, researching and developing and advertising a product costs money, and if said product is not produced there are costs involved. For companies like Lionel and Atlas build-to-order also leaves them vulnerable to competition from more responsive importer/manufacturers such as 3rd Rail, as 3rd Rail can get product to market quicker.

 

Jeff C

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTO is also happening in the HO world also.  Athearn and Walthers come to mind.  It's just that in HO there more folks available to order items and the LHS's are also more willing to take on some for stock.

 

Rusty

The tight little box also exists in HO, but it's a bigger small box with more players...

 

Jeff C

Originally Posted by Balshis:

I don't buy new locomotives.

 

And I don't buy used ones, for pretty much the same reason I wouldn't buy a used car other than an antique one; because you have no idea what's wrong with it.

Used can often mean something a person previously had an issue with and wanted to foist the problem onto some unsuspecting schmuck. No warranties in a secondary market.

I'd just rather go new out of the box to not have that concern in the back (or front) of my mind.

I guess it helps to have this mindset when you're not buying a locomotive (or more) every week or so...

Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

 

quote:


The technology treadmill is moving too quickly nowadays to group so many "generations" of trains in this 45-year period.  I don't know what the correct cut-off years would be offhand, but we should probably put MPC into its own era, followed by LTI, then trains made in Korea (TMCC-era?), followed by trains made in China (present-day Legacy?).

 


For more precision, people often do use more specific terms like "MPC","LTI" and "LLC".

 

It seems to me that some folks already do define train eras by the type of control, or where the trains are made.

 

It would be helpful to have these terms defined and published. It would probably take a group like the TCA, LCCA, or OGR to make it happen. Even so, with todays informal, free flowing peer to peer communications, it would be tough to make it stick.

This really does make a lot of sense to me. Probably why it won't happen? There have been SO many changes I actually don't see why it hasn't been addressed already.  Maybe someone is asleep at the switch? Or maybe it just doesn't matter anymore? Who knows, but I really do think it's way over due.

 

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