I wonder what's different with the new Berkshires?

They sure look like my K-line Berkshires. I wonder if they were not including the draw bar and couplers. Two and a half inches is a huge difference. Also there's a huge difference in price. Don

Three differences i noted are Legacy, quilling whistle with steam similar to VL Hudson and no tether will use Lionel drawbar.

Are they from new tooling?

 

Doug

I "suspect" (hope) its a description error, 26 1/2, o-54 are the specs for the previously released Lionel tooled berks, i.e 765, and Pere Marquette 1225. Lionel made the same error in the previous catalog regarding the "k line tooling" k4s listing them as 23 1/2 on o-54 like the lionel tooled k4s from 2002. Lionel corrected the specs to 20 1/2 and o-36 matching the k line original in its online catalog some time after the paper version hit the shelves. I believe the first batch of k line tooled "mikes" had errors/corrections as well.While I think o-31 is probably a bit extreme for these maybe o-48 or o-36 could even be possible,especially since the new "k line tooled" mikes are o-36 and the berks share the same driver size. As far as price goes yes they are $300 or so higher than when k line made them,however they are $150 less than the legacy berks I mentioned above and the k line tooling has loads more detail. I think the advanced sound smoke and operation offered from legacy should help justify the additional cost versus the actual k line original. hope that wasn't too confusing or long-winded

I wasn't questioning the price. I just didn't get the length and track diameter difference.

 

Doug

Its no secret Lionel has aquired k line tooling, theres just been no upfront "disclosure" as to which ones. So far, k4, shay, mikado, lima berkshire....... If you look closer at the catalog illustrations you can make out the k line wire tether coiled behind the cab.Lionel hasn't put a wire tether on a premium scale steamer in over 12 years.

It must be a misprint.  Doesanyone have a Kline berk?  If so how long is it?

 

Doug

24.5" see the link below,if you search "berkshire" on this k line website even the roadname offerings are the same.

 

http://www.legacykline.com/app...oem_sku=K3635-7050CC

 

 

 

 

A couple more thoughts on the reasons for differences in operational restrictions, then i'll be quiet. The k line berks represent the first berks built by lima which were basically a beefed up mikado. The early berks were equipped with 63" drivers, the k line model reflects that. The lionel legacy berks i mention above represent the later berks with 69" drvers. The pilot wheels on the k line berks are open and more free to move,the lionel berks have pilots that are enclosed by frame and suspension (for lack of the appropriate term),these berks will get around o-48 but the large drivers overhang quite a bit and the pilot"frame" wants to rub the steam cylinders.Given the fact Lionel mis-labeled the other dimensions and requrements I'm sure its happened again. I've researched this a bit because I want one of these for my inner o-48 loop,I just hope i'm correct.

i think that Lionel always measures the overall length for their specs.  Over the ends of extended couplers.  Note that their passenger cars, for example, are listed as 19" overall, whereas most of the other manufacturers list the same cars as 18" long.

 

Paul Fischer

Really? 12 years?  I have a scale 2-8-0 from 2008 from Lionel that has a tether.  It's too bad because it was listed as wireless tether in the catalog.

The key word here is "premium". 

The K Line Berkshire tender has a drawbar with two coupling positions. In its closer coupling position, the engine and tender measure 24-1/2 inches from the face of the scale coupler on the pilot to the face of the Operating knuckle on the tender. In its farther coupling position, the overalol distance measures 25 inches. I dont have my paper work handy but I would think that the farther coupling position would allow a tender swing which would allow the combination to negotiate an o31 curve.

 

Lionels legacy version will have the wireless tether drawbar,probably setup for the 24-1/2 inch dimension and would need a larger radius accordingly.

 

In addition to Legacy features mentioned above, Odyssey 2 is used which I believe will enhance the performance over the K Line cruise set up. Just my opinion.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm ordering the Lima version either way.  Does anyone know when they will be shipped?

 

Doug

Heres some video I found of a k line scale berk and a lionel tmcc scale berk running together(what are the chances?). Not the clearest but at the 4:21 mark it appears the lionel "could" be a bit longer.                                                                                          

I was taking a look at the online catalog and noticed that the B&M is in the 'steam square' lettering. I'd be interested if they released a 'Speed Lettering' version - adds some color to the consists...

Information on the B&M Limas can be found at:

 

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mountain/?page=bm

 

If you look at the two photos referenced at the end of the page, you'll find the first is clearly using the speed lettering, and the second looks to be numbered in the font (I couldn't read the tender). Also, the 2-book B&M series by Robert Jones has several photos of the Limas, with one in speed lettering on the cover of the 'City and Shore' volume. Given the evidence, and that all the R-1s were named like their P-4 counterparts from the same time period, I think it's safe to say speed lettering is prototypical for the B&M. In fact, although I could find photos of these locos with the square box-lettered tenders, I've seen no photos that could be deemed definitive that the engines themselves were lettered in the same style...

 

Now getting the engine name plaques along with the speed lettering would be heaven... Even the 3rd-rail release several years ago missed that detail (double checking my 4103).

Hi Root Beer

 

Thanks for the link. It does however take you to a page describing the R1 class Northerns which are a 4-8-2 wheel arrangement. All these were built by Baldwin.The two referenced photos are in fact R1d class engines and these wore speed lettering from about when they were first on the system. I believe we agree on that.

 

The Jones books as well as other volumes on the B&M show few photos of the T1 class Berkshire 2-8-4 loco which is the locomotive that K Line and now Lionel is producing. In the Jones book that you referenced, there is a photo showing a 2-8-4 with the Boston And Maine in the rectangular box lettering on the tender , taken in 1944, months before the engines left the B&M. The Railfan Photo site which you referenced does have six photos of the T1 class 2-8-4's and none wore speed lettering.

One small note. The K-line Lima Demo engine is the hardest Berkshire to find. Don

Ack! Have gotten my mountains and berkshires mixed up. How I can do that despite reading Baldwin as the builder of the mountains and still call them Limas, I'll never know. I've even named my dog Berk after the locomotive... I guess I just wanted to get a new speed lettered B&M engine so bad I was willing to skip the facts that contradicted it.

 

Not sure I'd get a non-proto paint scheme, though given the rarity of it (only time I've seen it in 3-rail O in the fifteen years that I've been collecting was the 3rd rail issue that was an afterthought when the square lettering didn't sell that fast) I'd at least consider.

 

A while back there was a thread as to what the most under represented railroad in the hobby - I hereby nominate Boston & Maine Speed Lettered Pacifics and Mountains.

MTH released a speed lettered Pacific about 5 years ago. It looks more like a Lackawanna so it would be evocative of the P5 class. They also released a pacific with the feedwater heater atop the boiler . It was in the square leterring. 

 

The diesels seem well represented with F-3s and F-7's, E-7s, EMD and Alco switchers, BL-2s, Geeps and RS-3s from the MFRs all in maroon and gold.