How well does the locomotive run by itself?  I'm no DCC expert, but depending on the decoder, there may be a CV to set for maximum speed.

Also, the smoke unit and incandescent lamps in the passenger cars may be drawing a lot of the current.  The power supply output for the DCS50 is 2.5 amps.   You may need a more  powerful power supply.  If the Locomotive is OK, try adding one car at a time to see if that affects speed.

While DC, I know that seven AM Budd's and two AM E8's is about the maximum that my 3.0 amp DC power supply can handle.

Rusty

As expected, the loco runs reasonably fast by itself...certainly much faster than when pulling any of my cars. 

Digitrax Tech Support advised me that as a minimum, I should upgrade my control system by adding their DB210 booster and PS615 power supply, which would provide up to 5 amps to the rails. That's going to be a bit expensive [total list price: $228], but I guess I have no choice in the matter.

Thanks for your helpful guidance, Rusty.

How large is your loop, and how long does the consist take to complete a circuit?  It might be running faster than you think!

I remember the first time I ever saw the video feed from one of those camera cars, that provides an “engineer eye” perspective of the layout.  It looked like I was riding a roller coaster!  Bottom line, the top speed of the prototype is kind of irrelevant.  On a small layout with train set curves, 60 mph or even 45 scale mph is plenty fast.  What’s harder is getting smooth, realistic slow speed performance.

Bob G (WNY) posted:

As expected, the loco runs reasonably fast by itself...certainly much faster than when pulling any of my cars. 

Digitrax Tech Support advised me that as a minimum, I should upgrade my control system by adding their DB210 booster and PS615 power supply, which would provide up to 5 amps to the rails. That's going to be a bit expensive [total list price: $228], but I guess I have no choice in the matter.

Thanks for your helpful guidance, Rusty.

 

 

 

 

The good thing is the larger power supply and booster is a one-time investment.  I don't think you'll regret it.

I bought the MRC Prodigy system years ago along with the then available separate sale 10 amp booster.  Now, I know I'll never need all 10 amps, but it's nice to know it's there...

Ted S posted:

How large is your loop, and how long does the consist take to complete a circuit?  It might be running faster than you think!

 

I recall measuring an AM Budd car individually drawing about 1/2amp.  (I don't know about the domes, which use LED's, I never measured them) The current draw isn't quite linear when adding cars, but it does add up.

As I mentioned above, in DC operation, two motors and seven AM illuminated Budd cars are about the max my 3 amp DC throttle can take.  When I ran seven illuminated Budds with three SHS F7's, the train moved at a crawl and my throttle got very warm very quickly. 

Removing one of the F7's from the consist, everything was fine.  I then had a choice, run with two F7's or remove the lamps from the cars.  I chose to remove the incandescent lamps from the passenger cars.

Rusty

As Rusty said, maybe removing the incandescent lamps to see if it makes a difference, if so for a reasonable cost you can convert the cars to LED lighting, well under $200.00, l would venture less than $50.00 of your willing to build the circuit yourself.

Ray

I have three of those AM Pacifics, two of mine are converted to TMCC/Railsounds to run on Legacy. They pull 6 AM Budd cars around the layout with no issue. This includes some 2.2% grades. I will say that consist takes at least 4A to run well. I have 10A supplies to each of 8 independent power districts around the layout. I do not use DCC so I have no experience with it, but regardless of the decoder and its settings my experience suggests at least a 5A supply dedicated to that track is necessary. I have 14VAC on the track. If the DCC output voltage is much less than 14V it may cause problems when the engine is loaded.

Ted, my train is operating on a 40-inch-diameter X 6-foot-long FasTrack loop. The attached video clip will illustrate the top speed of my AM loco and its three-passenger car consist. 

It sounds like your loop is about 189" long.  In your ~10 second video, the train completes about 3/4 of the loop.  That works out to 51,000 inches per hour.  The "scale factor" for S-gauge is 64.  So it's actually travelling 3.3 million SCALE inches per hour.  This equates to 51.5 scale miles per hour.  

Think about how your passengers would feel... In real life, passenger trains only achieved those speeds where there were ample straightaways and gentle curves.  I guarantee if the loco were shoving a camera car into those curves at that speed, you would get dizzy watching the video.  If you want a little more speed, add voltage.   Also, make sure your passenger car axles turn freely and have one drop of lubricant on each bearing.

The American Models Pacifics are outstandingly well-engineered locos.  There is NOTHING in O gauge outside of Brass that compares.  If I could trade, I would.  Enjoy the realistic performance your loco has to offer!

Ted S posted:

It sounds like your loop is about 189" long.  In your ~10 second video, the train completes about 3/4 of the loop.  That works out to 51,000 inches per hour.  The "scale factor" for S-gauge is 64.  So it's actually travelling 3.3 million SCALE inches per hour.  This equates to 51.5 scale miles per hour.  

Think about how your passengers would feel... In real life, passenger trains only achieved those speeds where there were ample straightaways and gentle curves.  I guarantee if the loco were shoving a camera car into those curves at that speed, you would get dizzy watching the video.  If you want a little more speed, add voltage.   Also, make sure your passenger car axles turn freely and have one drop of lubricant on each bearing.

The American Models Pacifics are outstandingly well-engineered locos.  There is NOTHING in O gauge outside of Brass that compares.  If I could trade, I would.  Enjoy the realistic performance your loco has to offer!

It's a loop on a carpet around some furniture and an elf, not real life.  Even I, "Joe Scale Guy" likes to let 'er rip every now and then.  Very therapeutic...

I believe Bob's complaint it that is the maximum speed he can get right now, there is no more headroom.  Besides, S Scale (or any other scale for that matter) passengers tend to be very sedentary and pretty much unaffected by the laws of physics...

Besides, if that short train is taxing the output his power supply, he will eventually repeatedly blow its breaker or let its smoke out.

Rusty

Looks pretty normal to me .

      Bob G.

The AM Pacifics weren't meant to go that fast anyway, but the Budd cars draw a LOT of current with the light bulbs in them.   My set with six cars drew more than a small transformer could put out.  So I simply disconnected the wires on the trucks leading to the inside circuit.   Runs great, but no lights.  If I had the time, I'd convert the bulbs to LEDs.  Way too many projects now, including getting my PE to smoke again.  That one may be a lost cause, though.

By the way, Ron at American Models uses white lithium for axle lubrication. on these cars.   Just a LITTLE dab will do ya...

Something is not right with Bob's setup. I just ran my New Haven AM Pacific, converted to TMCC but otherwise all original pulling 6 AM Budd cars. I ran it on the upper loop, line 3, which is about 70' around the layout. I set the Legacy Cab 2 to 1/2 throttle, 14V on the track from a ZW-L. The ZW-L will provide 10A with no measurable voltage sag. The track is MTH nickle silver flex code 138. Minimum radius is 30" with superelevation and easements. The scale speed around the loop calculated to 105smph, it was really moving! I doubt the engine would stay on the rails at full throttle. And this is with a 14V setting, many people use the full 18V output from the ZW-L's but I find the incandescent bulbs get too hot and are too bright at 18V.

I replaced all the incandescent lights in the Budd cars with strips of LEDs. An AM Pacific pulling 6 Budd cars at 10 volts, which is very fast, draws 0.5 amperes of direct current. The headlight in the Pacific is still an incandescent bulb. An American Models E8 pulling the same cars at the same 10 volts draws the same amount of current but runs very slightly slower--still faster than any of the plastic figures in the cars finds comfortable. An ABBA consist of SHS F7s, all powered, draws 2 amps pulling the same cars. Their speed is much slower under Locomatic control at 10 or even 12 volts, but that speed is still a bit faster than realistic on my layout.

The LEDs in the passenger cars reduce the required current--and heat--significantly. Buck-boost modules keep the lighting uniform and steady no matter what speed the trains run, as long as the applied voltage is above 3.5 volts or so. The conversion to LEDs was worth the effort.

I am a former Lionel O guy who sold virtually all of those trains and got back into the hobby by purchasing a variety of S, HO, N, and OO trains...all of which have not yet been placed on a layout of any kind [indeed, most may never be].  I must have been "spoiled" by the childlike sensation of seeing my Lionel steam-, diesel-, and electric-motive power "fly" by with their respective consists at [admittedly unrealistic] breakneck speeds on long stetches of straight track.

The S FasTrack loop shown in the video clip was set up for the enjoyment of my daughter and son-in-law who live out of state and will be staying with us for a few days during the holidays. When I finally manage to clean out my 15-foot X 15-foot finished and carpeted basement Rec room, I'd like to construct a shelf-type permanent layout where I can fully "exercise" my AM DCC-equipped/modified K4- -chugging, with headlight blazing, smoke puffing, firepan glowing, bell ringing, whistle blowing- -pulling its full complement of six illuminated AM Budd cars [plus a matching observation car I plan to buy] on long straightaways and gentle curves [to the extent feasible, given the limited large-radii choices for curved track].

That all said, I'll opt for upgrading my Digitrax Zephyr system with an additional booster and increased amperage power supply. I found that Litchfield Station sells these components for considerably less than the Digitrax list price: $116 for the DB210 booster, $63 for the PS615 power supply, and $148 for the PS2012E power supply [which is the better long-term solution compared to the PS615 because it can provide up to 8 amps of power, rather than "only" 5 amps]. 

Don't forget the fact that there is a high speed worm & a low speed worm . Maybe this engine has a low speed worm . Was the  engine bought from AM or some induvial ?

 Bob G.

The low speed worm won't fit the Pacific's.

Rusty

I put the low speed worm in the B&O , The Southern Crescent & the engine pictured. Had to switch the shafts though . I switched them back as they were just too slow. 

  Bob G.

FYI, Bob Guckian: 

I bought my AM K4 hi-rail loco from Chick’s Hobby Center [http://chickshobbyshop.com/]; the DC to DCC conversion and other feature upgrades [including wireless tether] were done by the shop owner, Charles Viggiano. My unsolicited testimonial: Charles [Chick] did a great job and I absolutely love the way this loco & tender looks and performs- -it's better than any Lionel O product I ever owned and operated!

I think you will see a marked improvement with the power boost. There are a lotta lights eating power in that video.

let us know how it turns out.

TOKELLY posted:

I replaced all the incandescent lights in the Budd cars with strips of LEDs.

The LEDs in the passenger cars reduce the required current--and heat--significantly. Buck-boost modules keep the lighting uniform and steady no matter what speed the trains run, as long as the applied voltage is above 3.5 volts or so. The conversion to LEDs was worth the effort.

TOKELLY,

You have my attention. Could you add more detail like what you used for LED strips? I tool a quick look at the Buck-Boost website (analog.com) and was not sure what I was looking for. Do you remember the Buck-Boost model number?

This sounds like a great way to get consistent lighting at low voltage (slow running).

Thanks,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom,

There were some previous threads here on LED light strips:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...57#74213916848976457

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...91#45214903472354991

Hope this helps!

Mike

Mikeaa posted:

Tom,

There were some previous threads here on LED light strips:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...57#74213916848976457

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...91#45214903472354991

Hope this helps!

Mike

Groovy, thanks Mike though it looks over my head at first glance.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom

Not complicated at all, I am very novice in electronics and have done a ton of cars with the LED strips . A rectifier followed by a capacitor, then an inexpensive regulator to the LED strip. Cost will be under$3.00 per car.

Ray

Hi Tom,

The conversion is not hard, it's just a bit tedious. I used the circuit boards provided by American Models because they did contain usable parts and spanned the two trucks from which to draw current. They also were up toward the ceiling to provide better light. I started by disassembling the car, removing the circuit board, and de-soldering and removing the incandescent light bulbs.

I drilled a small hole through the printed circuit line to break the connection as described on the left of the picture below.  I did this so that I could insert a 22mH choke to bridge the connection. The choke was a recommendation for anyone who wanted to use the MTH DCS system and prevent interference with its signal to DCS-controlled locomotives. (I don't use DCS, but when the patient is open for surgery, I might as well do easy fixes for whoever owns the cars after me.) The choke is the black rectangle with the red outline.  The break is represented by the disconnected yellow line below the choke image.

The next element is the bridge rectifier, the gray circle in the diagram. The rectifier's job is to take in either DC current or alternating current and send out only the DC current required by the LEDs and the buck-boost module. The two yellow lines represent the current from the two trucks and connect to the proper legs of the rectifier. The rectifier cannot span the PCB board lines that are parallel on the board because those two lines are to be reserved for the "rectified" or "corrected" DC current out from the rectifier. 

The rectified current out from the rectifier are represented by the black ( -) and the red ( + ) lines than can connect to the parallel printed circuit board lines on the PCB board. Be sure to note which line is going to be positive and which is negative because the buck boost converter has to connect to the right one. The capacitor, the blue cylinder in the diagram, also has to connect to the correct lines because it has a positive leg and a negative leg (represented by the white marking down the side of the capacitor. Capacitors have markings on them to show which leg is negative.) The idea behind the capacitor is that it acts as a "battery" to temporarily store a charge on it so that lights don't flicker when current from the wheels on the trucks sees slight interruptions due to dirty track or crossing switches.

The buck-boost converter has pads on each of the four corners for connections. Each is marked--two on one end for input and two on the other end for output. The red and black lines on the diagram represent the positive and negative current from the capacitor or, more easily, the correct parallel printed line on the PCB board. I just used the holes from a removed incandescent light bulb to solder a connection from the positive or negative line to the correct positive or negative input pad on the buck-boost module.

The buck-boost converters I used had voltage output settings too high for the LEDs when I removed them from their packages. To make initial adjustments, I hooked each one up to wires with alligator clips on both ends of the wire. I attached one end of each wire to the input ends of the modules and the other ends to the track. I applied 10 volts from the track and tested the voltage at the output pads of each converter module. The initial voltage was between 25 and 30 volts, so I turned the brass rheostat screw on each module counterclockwise so that the measured output was about 7-8 volts. If the track voltage was 5 volts, the module put out 7-8 volts. If the track voltage were 12 volts, the output would still be 7-8 volts; and that is how the lights stay "constant" even when the passenger train is moving fast or slowly. (It's easiest to adjust all the buck-boost converter modules in a batch rather than adjust each one to complete one car, then go to complete another car, and so forth.) I set all the readjusted modules aside. When I need one for the PCB board, I glued it to the underside of the PCB board, away from any windows so that it would not be visible. Then it was easy to solder connections to the module's pads to the old holes in the PCB board using small wires.

The LED light strips have adhesive on the the reverse side. Before I attached them to the PCB board, though, I soldered wires from the converter's output pads to the correct positive (red) and negative (black) inputs on the LED strips. The strips are marked as to + or - connections, and they have small solder spots on them to make the connection easier. (Getting a good connection at this point , however, was the most difficult part of the assembly and required testing multiple times to make sure the LEDs lit up.) Once I was convinced the connections were good and the LEDs lit up, I stripped off the waxy paper over the adhesive and glued the strips to the bottom of the PCB boards.

I reattached the PCB boards to the under frames of each car but left the upper body off for further testing. Once I had finished all the cars--a long process because I included heavyweights, streamliners, Amtrak cars, and cabooses--I lined up all the cars of the same type on the same stretch of track and applied current to the track. The lighting varied a bit from car to car, but adjusting the brass rheostat on each converter allowed me to make the lighting entirely uniform for each car. Each car now had the same amount of illumination--at 4.5 volts up to 15 volts. I moved each car along the track to check whether the connections were sound. After each car passed, I reattached the bodies to the frames. (That's when some worked and some didn't--the way the world works. It just meant going back to make better solder connections in those cases.)

The benefits outweigh the work involved: uniform lighting from car to car, uniform lighting at any speed above that requiring more than about 4 volts, low current draw, and minimum heat generated in each car.

The parts I used are similar to those listed below. The cost per car was about $6, far less than buying a complete module kit that you would still have to install with almost the same amount of work.

 Buck-boost converter:  Buck Boost converter example

LED strips

TOKELLY posted:

Hi Tom,

The parts I used are similar to those listed below. The cost per car was about $6, far less than buying a complete module kit that you would still have to install with almost the same amount of work.

 Buck-boost converter:  Buck Boost converter example

LED strips

 

 

Rayin"S" posted:

Tom

Not complicated at all, I am very novice in electronics and have done a ton of cars with the LED strips . A rectifier followed by a capacitor, then an inexpensive regulator to the LED strip. Cost will be under$3.00 per car.

Ray

Wow, that’s a lot of information. What I am not clear on are the specifics. I run DC so I understand I have no need for the rectifier, but from there, a capacitor (what value?), a regulator (again, what value), and a Buck Booster (is the one in the eBay link the one I should use or just similar?).  Then there's the resistor's for each LED.  When I try to put together the 3 threads, I get lost.

Am I missing something?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

It's a lot to swallow at once, and it took me a few months to learn what I needed. This is what worked for me. From left to right on the diagram:

• a 22 milli-henry choke for about $0.44 each. This is an inexpensive option that makes the car more compatible with MTH's DCS system and more attractive if you decide to use DCS or to sell to the car to a DCS user later on. 

• a bridge rectifier to allow the passenger car to run on AC as well as DC. It is necessary to keep the LEDs illuminated when you change DC polarity to reverse an engine. (Without the rectifier, the lights would go out when you back up because reversing changes the positive DC track wheels to negative DC and the negative wheels to positive. The rectifier keeps the output current the same polarity even if the input changes. ) Rectifiers cost about $0.44 each.
• a 1000 micro-farad capacitor capable handling 35 volts (far more voltage than the track will ever see)
• the buck-boost converter in my example or a similar converter
• the LED strip in my example. The resistors and other components for the LEDs are already in the strip. It's just a matter of connecting the positive wire from the buck-boost to the the + solder point on the strip and the negative wire to the - solder point.

There is no need for a regulator with this setup. The choke filters the current. The rectifier keeps the same DC polarity to reach the LED strip whether the track has AC or DC current on it and if the DC polarity changes to reverse the locomotive. The capacitor stores a bit of energy to reduce flicker. Everything else is already built into the LED strip.

choke:

rectifier:

capacitor:

I guess I mis-spoke, I run Legacy and in my cars I installed buck type regulator to adjust the brightness of the LEDs 

Ray

TOKELLY posted:

It's a lot to swallow at once, and it took me a few months to learn what I needed. This is what worked for me. From left to right on the diagram:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD...PHl1FCPZucit6Q%3d%3d

rectifier:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD...bUysgCFckWHwodiPoK-A

capacitor:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/R...word=647-UPW1H471MHD

TOKELLY,

I believe the diagram did not come through.  It is getting clearer, though.  You call the Buck-Boost a converter.  What does it convert?  And is the one in your eBay link the one I should use?  When I looked at their website, there where hundreds to choose from and as you are probably noticing, I don't know up from down in this stuff.

Thank again,

Tom

The buck-boost takes a wide range of DC voltage inputs, from 5 to 32 volts, and puts out a voltage you choose from a range of 1.25 to 35 volts. You select the output voltage by turning the brass colored screw on the top of the tall, rectangular blue element on the module shown in the link I sent. The buck-boost should more correctly be called a controller because it converts/controls/adjusts input voltage to the output you want. When starting a train, the LEDs will illuminate just before 4 volts on the track. As the train picks up speed when you apply more voltage from the transformer or power supply, the illumination stays at the same brightness because the buck-boost module takes in whatever voltage you apply but only puts out the voltage to the LEDs that you selected when you adjusted the brass screw. (You need to check the output voltage before connecting the LEDs because I found that the output on the ones I bought was about 25 volts, too much for the LED strips. I adjusted the screws to reduce the voltage to 7-8 volts, and then trimmed each one to match the lighting of all of the finished cars.) The LEDs have the same brightness when the train is almost at a crawl or when going at top speed.

The buck-boost converter on the website is nearly identical to the ones I used and has the same specifications. In the web picture, the bottom corners are the silvery pads for input--negative on the left and positive on the lower right. Those pads easily take a spot of solder when a wire is passed through the hole and bent over the edge. The output pads are on the opposite side of the converter/controller.

Let me know if the diagram did not appear this time. I see it in my browser, but different browsers act differently.

Good luck and Merry Christmas,

Terry

Converting the Budd cars from incandescent bulb to LED illumination is a nice project for the future. I'll copy and save all related information on this topic. Thanks to everyone who has provided value insights and inputs thus far.

WOW  LED conversion is involved.  Have any of you all considered replacing the lights regular bulbs with mini Christmas 12v (or two or three 6v in series) light bulbs which should will draw less current than the standard train light bulbs but be dimmer?

regular bulbs

18 v #1447 screw bulb draws 2.7 watts

14v #53 Bayonet bulbs draw 2.8 watts

18 v #432 screw bulb draws 4.5 watts compared too

 BUT a Mini 12 volt or 6v Christmas light draw .48 watts

Mini Christmas lights used to be easy to buy at Walmart, drug stores etc. 10 years ago but are now hard to find.  Mini Christmas lights are available at https://www.hardtofinditems.com/cart.php but 12v bulbs were out of stock today. 

They are easy to use if you obtain, by buying or from trash strings, of mini lights of any size bulbs ( strings with 10 bulbs have 12v bulbs and strings with 20 bulbs have 6v bulbs which can be a plus if most bulbs still are good, strings with 35 bulbs have 3v bulbs which can work in series of 4 to give 12volts or 5 to give 15volts) .  Cut the strings up to obtain wire and sockets to use for installation as singles, doubles or triple in passenger cars and as building lights on the layout.   Match the bulbs voltage to that of the voltage source by according to the bulb voltage (6v or 12v), the need for number of lights needed to cover the car or building and use the bulbs in series of one, two or three to make the sum of bulb voltages match the source voltage.

To install in a Lionel 2400 series passenger car, just remove the old light bulbs, leaving the old sockets.  Then solder or crimp clamp one end of the wire and sockets in series, to the terminal from the truck power pickup and the other end to a car ground.  Attach the sockets and wires to the roof of the car with two sided tape or some silicone caulking or Aliens Clear glue or E6000 glue.

Charlie

This has been an interesting discussion on lighting, and the buck booster is the way to go for constant LED lighting.  However, the unit is LARGE!  I have an application of 6 stretched Osgood Bradley cars with open vestibules and complete interiors.  Absolutely no room for the booster.  So I'll have to be content with LED lighting that varies with voltage.   Either that, or wait for the boosters to be miniaturized more...

poniaj posted:

This has been an interesting discussion on lighting, and the buck booster is the way to go for constant LED lighting.  However, the unit is LARGE!  I have an application of 6 stretched Osgood Bradley cars with open vestibules and complete interiors.  Absolutely no room for the booster.  So I'll have to be content with LED lighting that varies with voltage.   Either that, or wait for the boosters to be miniaturized more...

Jerry, How about the size of what I use in my coaches.

Sorry for the quality of the pic. but these are about 5/8" x 7/8" and less than 3/16" high. Ray

https://www.ebay.com/p/1402279667?iid=1237989

TOKELLY posted:

The buck-boost takes a wide range of DC voltage inputs, from 5 to 32 volts, and puts out a voltage you choose from a range of 1.25 to 35 volts. You select the output voltage by turning the brass colored screw on the top of the tall, rectangular blue element on the module shown in the link I sent. The buck-boost should more correctly be called a controller because it converts/controls/adjusts input voltage to the output you want. When starting a train, the LEDs will illuminate just before 4 volts on the track. As the train picks up speed when you apply more voltage from the transformer or power supply, the illumination stays at the same brightness because the buck-boost module takes in whatever voltage you apply but only puts out the voltage to the LEDs that you selected when you adjusted the brass screw. (You need to check the output voltage before connecting the LEDs because I found that the output on the ones I bought was about 25 volts, too much for the LED strips. I adjusted the screws to reduce the voltage to 7-8 volts, and then trimmed each one to match the lighting of all of the finished cars.) The LEDs have the same brightness when the train is almost at a crawl or when going at top speed.

The buck-boost converter on the website is nearly identical to the ones I used and has the same specifications. In the web picture, the bottom corners are the silvery pads for input--negative on the left and positive on the lower right. Those pads easily take a spot of solder when a wire is passed through the hole and bent over the edge. The output pads are on the opposite side of the converter/controller.

Let me know if the diagram did not appear this time. I see it in my browser, but different browsers act differently.

Good luck and Merry Christmas,

Terry

Terry, Sorry for the delay in getting back, but my Xmas layout project hit crunch-time and tool top priority… I even sort of made it.

Thanks you for the detailed info, I can handle this. Still not sure of which Buck-Booster to try, there are many different values. Running straight DC, I’m under the impression I don’t need to use the choke.

And with the Buck-Booster, Ray has now shown another (mini) brand, but still no talk of specs.

Happy Christmas to all,

Tom

Tom,

The choke is only an option for DCS operation. I only put one in mine because it was quick and easy when I had the passenger cars apart. It was bit of a challenge hiding the large buck-boost converters in some passenger cars, but the Budd's were relatively easy to do. The American Models streamlined and heavyweight cars originally had the incandescent light PCB boards sitting on the floors of the cars, so I used the boards and raised them to the roofs. If I remember correctly, I glued the buck-boost converters to the raised PCB boards in areas not visible through the windows or on the ends as in the Budd cars. The converters are not visible at all from any of the windows in any of the cars.

Ray's smaller version would make hiding them even easier because they are much smaller. These were not available when I started my project. The link Ray provided showed converters capable of inputs ranging from 4.75 volts to 23 volts, well within the range of voltage used by S gauge locomotives and lighted rolling stock. The 4.75 volts is a bit low so that LEDs will illuminate only when a DC-only locomotive is beginning to move at a good pace; but American Flyer Legacy locomotives that can handle DC and DCC locomotives need at least this voltage to respond to commands. The output voltage from Ray's suggestion is 1-17 volts--perfect for the LED strips. You will probably find that 7-8 volts is enough to give the passenger cars enough realistic light. Those smaller buck-boost converters fit in my diagram exactly the same is the larger ones I used. Using longer wires from the PCB boards to the converters will give you the freedom to tuck them wherever you like within a passenger car. (While you have the tops off the American Models frames, you can add some paint to the interiors as well as passengers and table lamps in the dining cars. Staples has "paint pens" in silver and in other colors that make it very easy to dress up the interiors a bit. I used the silver to add "chrome" touches to the upper parts of seats and to the legs of some tables in the dining car.)

Rayin"S" posted:

poniaj posted:

This has been an interesting discussion on lighting, and the buck booster is the way to go for constant LED lighting.  However, the unit is LARGE!  I have an application of 6 stretched Osgood Bradley cars with open vestibules and complete interiors.  Absolutely no room for the booster.  So I'll have to be content with LED lighting that varies with voltage.   Either that, or wait for the boosters to be miniaturized more...

Jerry, How about the size of what I use in my coaches.

Sorry for the quality of the pic. but these are about 5/8" x 7/8" and less than 3/16" high. Ray

https://www.ebay.com/p/1402279667?iid=1237989

 

Ray,

Those look GOOD!  Where do you hide them in your coaches?  My coaches have no room inside, but maybe the sparky stuff can be affixed to the underside of the floor and disguised as a battery box or something.  It's worth a shot.  If anyone is interested, I'll post a shot or two of the cars.  Imagine currently available Lionel heavyweight coaches with completely visible interiors.  There's a discussion on the forum at New Haven

The specs on the site call call it DC to DC, so I'll still need a bridge rectifier to make it all work if I use AC.  Do these things provide a constant voltage at less than 12vDC?  Hard to tell from their specs.  Plus this is kind of new to me.  I usually gin up much simpler circuits.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread, guys.   But to those of you who have used the LED strips, did you affix the strip directly to the roof, or did you provide some sort of buffer to avoid possible heat damage?

I set them either low in the vestibules or in the "bathrooms" in the sleeper cars. Many of my passenger cars have window shades that are pulled partially down or completely closed while other windows are fully open to view a seat or a passenger or two in the seat. I put the buck-boost in a place where it cannot be seen through a window with the shades down.

The example for which Ray provided a link will provide a constant voltage range of 1 to 17 volts. Less than 5 volts is too little voltage to light up the LEDs, and I found that a setting of 7-8 volts worked well. The light is not so bright that it is obvious when the room lights are one, and at night the amount of illumination is perfectly natural--and the body does not "glow" with too much light shining through when the train is running fast.

Heat damage is unlikely because the LEDs are extremely efficient and give off very little heat. In those cases where American Models had the PCB board suspended near the ceiling, such as the Budd cars with their detailed interiors, I fastened the LED strips to the PCB board itself so the the light came prototypically from the ceiling. In the streamlined and heavyweight cars, I used a wooden support running from one end of the car's vestibule to the other vestibule and glued the strip to that support. The two ends of the support were heavy cardboard with the image of a real vestibule door glued onto the side visible from the vestibule windows. A viewer looking into the car from one coupler or the other could only see the paper/cardboard vestibule support as if it were part of the car interior. The wooden support was at ceiling height so that the illumination came from the ceiling rather than from the floor where the original incandescent lights were.

I did not fasten the LED strip to the ceiling because of concern about heat. I used either the PCB board in the Budd cars or the wood strip held up by the cardboard vestibule wall because that allowed me to remove the body from the car to make any adjustments without having to worry about stretching wires connected to the top of the body. One could attach the strip to the underside of the body, but it would mean limited movement whenever the body were removed for maintenance--and the longer wires would probably be visible through the windows.

I mount my LED strips directly to the roof, I don't have interiors in my cars so I put it inside the car. You could mount them under the car, not sure where to go with the cap.

Ray

I guess I'm concerned with a component of the LED strip failing and frying.  I've had diodes heat up and smoke, and don't want anything to melt the car's roof.   Each of the 6 cars has at least 15 hours of work into it.  I hate to have a diode fry.  Yesterday I put the LED strip along the outside of the other side of the car just to see what it would appear when illuminated.  I applied a full 12vDC to the strip and here's what it looked like:

The blue tint is OK with me since it simulates florescent light fixtures, although I may overcoat the LEDs with some orange tint.  The full 12vDC is also a bit much.  The whole interior has light blue walls, dark blue seats and blue and black floor tiles.  The small window on the left isn't illuminated since it's the "bathroom."  I plan on running wires through the bathroom with a 2 pin connector so I  can remove the shell, but not much room there.  Here's what it looks like viewing through one of the vestibules toward the bathrooms:

There's a bit of room along the ceiling.   Maybe the circuitry could go there, but the LED strip covers the whole distance from vestibule to vestibule.  As far as the view of the interior through the windows, here's a sample:

No window glazing yet.  There's a way of making flush windows, but that's not what I'm going for.  Just a "what if" Gilbert of Lionel were to make these cars.  I seriously doubt they'd go so far as to make flush windows. 

Ray's suggestion looks good.  If I were to add a cap, I could also run it along the frame and disguise it as an air tank.  I've remoted caps before in other applications for better fit. 

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.   Happy New Year!

Nice work Jerry!

Rich

Jerry,. WOW!!!!!

That is beautiful work.

When I do these conversions I don't use a diode, I use a full wave rectifier, it's very small also less than 1/4 the size of the converter and rated at 1 amp, plenty for the strip of LEDs , the rectifier will allow you to reverse the polarity with no loss of the lighting. The strips are made for 12 v DC and with the converter you can adjust them for the brightness you desire they, the strips, also come in a variety of colors.

Ray

Rayin"S" posted:

Jerry,. WOW!!!!!

That is beautiful work.

When I do these conversions I don't use a diode, I use a full wave rectifier, it's very small also less than 1/4 the size of the converter and rated at 1 amp, plenty for the strip of LEDs , the rectifier will allow you to reverse the polarity with no loss of the lighting. The strips are made for 12 v DC and with the converter you can adjust them for the brightness you desire they, the strips, also come in a variety of colors.

Ray

Thanks for the compliment.  There's a LOT of work in these cars.  Five of them are standard coaches, and one is a "smoking" car with a special section for smokers. All of the interiors are three shades of blue, so LEDs look more blue than they are in actual life.  I'll tint the ones I have with some clear orange to soften them up a bit.  Lowering the brightness will help too.  BTW, I ordered those buck converters and will report on how they perform.   Here's hoping...

As to the diodes, I use full wave rectifiers too, but all they are is a few diodes.  And I've had one in the bridge fry on two occasions.  That's why I am hesitant to install one in the roof.  So I usually isolate the rectifier somehow so if it does fry, no plastic is nearby.

Hey guys, Happy New Year!  Hope your Christmas time was a great one.

Jerry as always, your work is outstanding. It’s the kind of modelling I would like to be doing but know I will never get to it. Just curious, when you said you ordered the buck boosters are you talking about the mini’s Ray posted?

And I should have memtioned, the Brunswick green Flyer K5 in my Xmas videos was done by Jerry. Like all his work, it is beautiful and thanks again.

Happy New Year (I hope) to all,

Tom Stoltz

in freezing rain Maine

Tom Stoltz posted:

Jerry as always, your work is outstanding. It’s the kind of modelling I would like to be doing but know I will never get to it. Just curious, when you said you ordered the buck boosters are you talking about the mini’s Ray posted?

And I should have memtioned, the Brunswick green Flyer K5 in my Xmas videos was done by Jerry. Like all his work, it is beautiful and thanks again.

Happy New Year (I hope) to all,

Tom Stoltz

in freezing rain Maine

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the compliment.  Yes, the buck boosters are the ones Ray suggested.  For the price, you can't beat it, and you know I'm cheap.   I'll let the list know how they turn out in my application.  If Ray suggested them, they're going to be good. 

Happy New Year to you and Nancy, my friend!

Jerry

A little over a week ago, I ordered the mini regulators that Ray suggested.  They came in 5 days!  I ginned up a temporary circuit to test them out.  Just what I was looking for!  The module measures 17x11x3.8mm.  I also got a few full wave bridge rectifiers and some 470μF 50volt caps for the circuit.  I assembled it with a slew of alligator clips, and it works great.  The caps smooth out the voltage to the LED strip to light the LEDs better.  I have them adjusted to around 9VDC and they look great.  With the size of the regulators, rectifiers and caps, they could be hidden in the S scale bathrooms!  The rectifier and regulator on one side and the cap on the other.  I'll power the circuit for a few hours on the bench before I stuff it all in the cars, just to be on the safe side.   I want to see if it generates a lot of heat, or if a component will fry.  When I finally install the circuitry, I'll post a photo or two.  

Here's a shot from the bottom of the shell of what kind of room I have in the bathrooms.  Just enough for the caps and other circuitry,  The bulkhead with the bathrooms slides in the shell along channels on the shell, and is removable.  The circuitry will be installed, then the bulkhead slid into place:

The small squares are drilled and tapped to screw the floor/chassis in place.  A two pin mini connector will allow shell removal if necessary.

Thanks again, guys, for the suggestions!

Jerry, Good to see that you can hide the components in the bathroom

Ray

Ray and Jerry -- the link to the eBay converter provided by Ray earlier goes to this label: "JacobsParts Mini360 DC Voltage Step Down Power Converter Buck Module" -- based on both the title and the specs in the listing, this is a buck module only, not a buck-boost module.  So if you are running Legacy or TMCC (?), etc. at a fixed AC track power (usually something like ~18 V), then a buck module should be all that is needed.  So this device would work, as would the device that GRJ devised - which has the added advantage that it does the AC-DC conversion on the same board (widely discussion on other OGR fora).

However, if one is running conventional variable AC, then a buck (only) converter might work if the LED strip lights work at something like 4 VDC, since the track voltage is - for most practical purposes - going to vary between ~4 VAC and ~16-18 VAC.  In this case, a buck converter will operate 'correctly' and simply step the voltage down to a user-set constant output voltage (that is always lower than the supply voltage).  But if one uses the common LED strip lights that are spec'd at 12 VDC ( and perhaps operated around 9 or 10 volts to control the brightness) with variable AC track power as input to the buck converter, there will be times when the supply voltage is less than the output voltage set point for the buck converter; in that case the buck converter output goes to zero (or near that).

A search for buck-boost converters on eBay will yield a lot of (mostly Chinese) buck boost boards that I'm sure would work - though I haven't seen any that are very small, which is one of Jerry's requirement for his coaches.  My assumption is that a lot of the buck and buck - boost boards that operate in the ~1 to ~20 VDC range and seem to be widely available on eBay and Amazon are designed for automotive systems.  I wonder if these are 'over-spec'd' compared to what the requirements are for a board used to control voltage to an LED strip for lighting model railroad passenger cars.  I'm not enough of an electrical engineer to know that - but perhaps there are circuit diagrams, etc. for a buck-boost system that meets the needs of the model railroad community - including small size.

- Rich

ps  Jerry - the car interiors look fantastic -- the couple of close-up shots you posted are indistinguishable from the "real thing".

Now that I've completely hijacked this thread () I'll show what the results of my testing on the buck modules produced.  I bench powered the circuit for HOURS and no heat.  So here are the components installed.  The pencil marks show where the drop-in vestibule goes and how much room I have.  The bare wires from the rectifier are where I'll solder on a two-pin connector about 4" in length so I can remove the shell from the frame if necessary.  The second photo is with the vestibule in place, and hiding the circuitry.  The LEDs start at about 6V and stay fairly consistent up until 9V  where they reach maximum brightness:

Admittedly, a buck booster would be ideal, but this is a good enough substitute. 

poniaj posted:

Now that I've completely hijacked this thread () I'll show what the results of my testing on the buck modules produced.   The LEDs start at about 6V and stay fairly consistent up until 9V  where they reach maximum brightness:

Admittedly, a buck booster would be ideal, but this is a good enough substitute. 

Jerry, as always, superb work. I am in awe of the modeling you do. And I’m very interested in this whole buck-boost thing, but still confused about what it is. I looked them up in Wikipedia and was left in a daze. I sort of though the buck was a voltage regulator while the boost is like a voltage amplifier.

Why I’m interested is I run DC and I run the trains slow. That leaves almost no lighting in the passenger cars. So this looks like a simple way to brighter, constant lighting. However, I get the feeling that the buck you used – without the boost – does not have constant lighting… if I want constant lighting I would need to use the one that includes the boost – is that true?

If I made this modification to the lighting, what impact would there be if I went to DCC in the future? My main reason to consider DCC is to get sound (I can’t hear the choo-choo anymore – even with hearing aids) and lighting… Probably asking for too much.

Tom

Tom, the buck booster will not give you constant lighting, to get that you would need either a control system that keeps power on the track or install battery in the car. If you are concerned about the flickering while running l added a 1000 mfd capacitor to the circuit.

Ray

Ray -- I'm missing something in your response to Tom...?  Doesn't a buck-boost system provide constant voltage (usually an adjustable set-point on the output voltage) - so it should provide constant light levels - or something close to it, should it not??  It won't if the track isn't powered, but I don't think that was what he was asking(?). 

Tom - The boards I have seen on Amazon or eBay are typically DC in to DC out, so at least in your case, you won't need to use a bridge to convert AC to DC.  A cap across the input would help with any flickering.

richs09 posted:

Ray -- I'm missing something in your response to Tom...?  Doesn't a buck-boost system provide constant voltage (usually an adjustable set-point on the output voltage) - so it should provide constant light levels - or something close to it, should it not??  It won't if the track isn't powered, but I don't think that was what he was asking(?). 

Tom - The boards I have seen on Amazon or eBay are typically DC in to DC out, so at least in your case, you won't need to use a bridge to convert AC to DC.  A cap across the input would help with any flickering.

I probably used the wrong term, maybe I should have said consistent, brighter lighting.  What I’m experiencing is that running the trains at such low voltage there is virtually no light in the passenger cars.  What I was getting from this thread is the buck and buck-boost appear to increase the voltage available to the cars and the LED requires less voltage to begin with. Or so I thought.

Jerry is using a buck without the boost – what does that mean for the lighting?  I’m also curious about going to DCC in the future.  What impact would that have on a buck-boost system?

Tom

Tom - first, a disclaimer - I know, in general, how these work and I've spent some time trying to figure out the best way for me to retrofit my AF passenger cars and cabeese with LED lights and a circuit to provide both constant (and hopefully flicker-free) lighting levels - all while running with conventional variable AC track power.  However, I haven't actually done anything yet !! - so you can size the grain of salt with which to take the following (hopefully it won't be too big...).

As the names imply, a 'buck' converter steps the DC input voltage down to whatever fixed output level you choose - even though the input voltage may vary.  For our purposes, these are typically in the range of several to maybe ~18 - 20 V on the input side.  The output side - assuming you are driving an LED strip light or string - is typically 12v (DC), although some of the folks here report reducing the voltage to ~10 v to reduce the brightness.  The main point here is that for a buck converter, the input voltage ALWAYS has to be higher than the output voltage.  So if the output voltage is ~10 to 12 V, the track voltage needs to be higher than that - which I suspect is much higher than what you run.  I'm not sure what happens when the input voltage is less than the output voltage on one of these boards - I assume it simply stops working and the output goes to zero.

For a 'boost' converter, the opposite happens - namely the converter steps the DC input voltage up and the user-selected output voltage is ALWAYS higher than the input voltage.  Again, the input voltage can be variable, while the output voltage is constant.  This type of converter is likely to be the most useful for your situation - namely low track voltage for running the trains but still wanting to have ~10-12 VDC for lighting.  HOWEVER, in the event where the track voltage goes higher than output voltage set to ~10 to 12 VDC, then I'm not sure what happens - either the converter stops working and the output voltage goes to zero or it stops working and the output voltage goes up with the input voltage, which could damage the LEDs.

So a 'buck-boost' converter is the merger of these two into one board.  So the track voltage can now vary between zero and - say - 18 VDC and the board will provide a constant voltage output (e.g., ~10 to 12 VDC to light an LED strip).  Here is a somewhat lame, but the best I could find quickly, YouTube presentation on these three types of converters.  I don't know why these guys (and they are almost always guys) all have British (or maybe Aussie?) accents and speech mannerisms, but...  if you can get past the tedious points, it illustrates what I've tried to describe above:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--_jaxiXhE.  If you want to cut to the chase right away, the buck-boost discussion starts around 11 minutes in.

One other consideration - you don't say (as I recall) whether you use (or plan to use) LED lighting or whether its incandescent.  If the latter, you might be able to get away with only a boost converter with the output set at a voltage you are likely never to exceed on the track (like 16-18 VDC).  The incandescent bulbs can handle those higher voltages, although if its too high, then the lights may be brighter than you want and then you are back into 'buck-boost' territory.  The issue, as discussed in the youTube presentation, will then be how much current and wattage the boost or buck-boost converter will need to supply for the incandescent bulb.  My thinking has always been to convert to LED lights - much lower current draw and more uniform lighting along the length of the car, etc.  So then its "just" a matter of finding the right buck-boost board that is small enough to fit inside the car.  Unlike Jerry and others - who've detailed out the car interiors (spectacularly) - I'm staying with the old paper diffuser look, so I don't have a "hide the board" problem.

Tom,

Rich has it correct, as far as I can determine.  I am using the buck module as a voltage regulator.  I have it set at 9V to keep the LEDs from being too bright.  They start illuminating around 5-6V and rapidly go to full brightness with the cap I have in the circuit.  Granted, I too would like them to illuminate at a lower voltage, but I can't fit all the electronics of a buck booster in my NH cars.  So what i have till do.  I will be pulling them either with an AC Flyonel EP-5 (which runs on at least 5V) or a pair of DC powered DL-109s.  In the later case, the train will have to be going fairly fast to allow the LEDs to illuminate.  I may install a resistor in the circuit on the locomotives just to allow more light in the cars, but that's a while away.  IN any case, the buck module will also allow me to use them on a layout with DCC or even FlyerChief, both of which give a lot more voltage to the track while some sort of decoder drops and powers the locomotive at a variable speed.  At least that's the plan...

Tom, 

One thought for you, running DC power, you mentioned you run at low speed. Might you consider using LEDs ? The strip LEDs that most of us use are set to operate at 12 volts, you might assemble your own LED lighting using individual LEDs with a buck converter adjusted to limit the output to around 3 volts. I would still use the rectifier in the circuit, if you do reverse the polarity the cars will light in both directions.

Ray

Ray - you make an interesting point - if one is running DC and then reverses the polarity to back up, what happens to the lighting and more specifically the converter board?  The boards have definite positive and negative inputs so I suppose reversing the polarity risks frying the circuitry?  You suggest that using a bridge rectifier feeding the circuit - even though the track power is DC so no AC to DC rectification is needed - will still maintain the right polarity feeding the lighting board even when the input polarity is switched.  Good idea - I had only thought about rectification in the context of AC to DC conversion.

• a bridge rectifier to allow the passenger car to run on AC as well as DC. It is necessary to keep the LEDs illuminated when you change DC polarity to reverse an engine. (Without the rectifier, the lights would go out when you back up because reversing changes the positive DC track wheels to negative DC and the negative wheels to positive. The rectifier keeps the output current the same polarity even if the input changes. ) Rectifiers cost about $0.44 each.

I covered  this point in an earlier post that also has the answers to a number of questions asked in subsequent postings. I think that any modification should consider use on AC, DC, and DCC operating systems in order to make the lighting work no matter on whose track the cars are going to run. The manufacturers take this flexibility into account in their products, and both Lionel and MTH have wisely taken this approach in the more recent locomotives, too.

TOKELLY posted:

• a bridge rectifier to allow the passenger car to run on AC as well as DC. It is necessary to keep the LEDs illuminated when you change DC polarity to reverse an engine. (Without the rectifier, the lights would go out when you back up because reversing changes the positive DC track wheels to negative DC and the negative wheels to positive. The rectifier keeps the output current the same polarity even if the input changes. ) Rectifiers cost about $0.44 each.

I covered  this point in an earlier post that also has the answers to a number of questions asked in subsequent postings. I think that any modification should consider use on AC, DC, and DCC operating systems in order to make the lighting work no matter on whose track the cars are going to run. The manufacturers take this flexibility into account in their products, and both Lionel and MTH have wisely taken this approach in the more recent locomotives, too.

I thought Terry did make this clear before. Switching polarity is the main feature of running DC. So unless the buck-boost can handle reversed polarity, a rectifier is a must. My main question was how to think about the buck and boost. Rich, I did try to watch the uTube, but with my hearing and the accent plus my (lack of) knowledge about electronics, made it a real non-starter for me. However, I think my primitive interpretation is actually fairly close; that is think of the buck as a variable voltage regulator and the boost as a voltage amplifier.

Now the voltage amplifier part of this makes me think about throwing one of these at a smoke unit… any thoughts?

Tom

The basic white LED runs at about 3.5 volts. If you eliminate the built-in resistors in what ever LED string you are using, you can put in a voltage regulator and illuminate the LEDs at about 4-5 volts of track power. There is some overhead lost in the regulator.

If the input to the regulator from the track has a bridge rectifier (4 diodes in a bridge) the LEDs will illuminate on AC , DC+ or DC- track power and almost any voltage.

I see that Ray said basically the same thing.

If you run command and have track voltage all the time, these will do it one stop.

LED Lighting Regulator

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you run command and have track voltage all the time, these will do it one stop.

LED Lighting Regulator

Thanks John, I run DC variable track voltage.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well, you can actually still use the regulator, but you would use the 5V LED strips instead of the 12V LED strips.  Unless you truly have a buck/boost regulator, you would not be able to use the 12V LED strips if you run conventional with variable voltage.

5V LED Warm White 5 Meter LED Strip

Hi Tom, I'll post the values once I get home from work. I also found inexpensive buck-boost converters, and I'll post a link to that Amazon site, too.

Terry

I used 12-volt warm white LED strips because they were the least exspensive and most readily available at the time.  That color value looked best in heavyweight coaches anyway. Amtrak coaches might look better with a cool white to represent bright fluorescent lights. The choke is an Epcos/TDK with a value of 22 millihenries that I bought from Mouser for $0.35 each. I don't see that choke on the Mouser website any longer, but there are some that are close to those in terms of price and below half an amp in maximum current.

The bridge rectifier is also from Mouser, an RB153:

https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=RB153

The capacitor is a 35-volt 1000 microfarad piece that didn't perform much better than a 470 mF capacitor. I have found that clean track and wheels make a much better contribution to reducing flickering than the capacitors have.

One source for inexpensive buck-boost converters is:

https://www.amazon.com/XL6009-...B07XG323G8&psc=1

I can't comment on their quality because I have not used them, but I suspect that if they work, it is a good idea to check their output because all the ones I tested with a voltmeter had to be turned down to 7-8 volts to prevent burning out the LED strips before use.

Terry

@TOKELLY posted:

One source for inexpensive buck-boost converters is:

https://www.amazon.com/XL6009-...B07XG323G8&psc=1

I can't comment on their quality because I have not used them, but I suspect that if they work, it is a good idea to check their output because all the ones I tested with a voltmeter had to be turned down to 7-8 volts to prevent burning out the LED strips before use.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

These are only BOOST converters, so if your track voltage goes over the max rating for your LED strips, you have a problem.

Below is a link to a buck/boost supply, note the two inductors.  This will keep the output voltage over the entire rated input voltage.

XL6009 DC-DC Step Up Step Down Boost Buck Power Supply

Note the one you specified says: Output Voltage Adjustable Step-up Converter Board Module

Sorry about that! I quickly searched for "buck-boost converter" without reading through the information. The other information is valid. In my own records I had links to all the devices I purchased, but not one link worked today; so I didn't copy any of them. I apologize.

Terry

@TOKELLY posted:

Sorry about that! I quickly searched for "buck-boost converter" without reading through the information. The other information is valid. In my own records I had links to all the devices I purchased, but not one link worked today; so I didn't copy any of them. I apologize.

Terry

Thank you Terry & John,

I will look closer at the pricing tomorrow, but it looks like about $7.00 per car…  I guess that’s not too bad… though it might be hard to slip by the accountant.  Terry, I had no trouble with the LED link to Amazon,   32.8 ft for $17.00 – looks like a good price.

I do have two questions: in the diagram there is something I interpret as a resistor (maybe the red rectangle is the choke?).  What should the value be?  And is the choke necessary, I don’t recall seeing them in other circuits, plus the Mouser is $3.11 if you buy 10.  That’s about half the cost per car.

If the capacitor really doesn’t reduce the flickering, why add it?

As you can tell, I have no idea what each item contributes to the whole system.

Thank you for taking the time to look up the values,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom,

The cap will reduce the flickering, and if I remember correctly you run conventional rather than command. You might consider using the 5v LED strips, you would need a higher value resistor to protect the strips or use one of the tiny DC regulators, which is my preference, found on the auction sight. Those regulators are what I have used, one per car, at under a buck each,

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

Tom,

The cap will reduce the flickering, and if I remember correctly you run conventional rather than command. You might consider using the 5v LED strips, you would need a higher value resistor to protect the strips or use one of the tiny DC regulators, which is my preference, found on the auction sight. Those regulators are what I have used, one per car, at under a buck each,

Ray

That’s what I assumed the capacitor would do.  On a H0 YouTube, the DCC Guy demonstrates that the cap actually eliminates the flickering.  That’s why I was surprised a Terry’s statement about flickering.

I do run filtered, regulated, DC from a 13.8 VDC power supply.  GRJ had a link to 5Vstrips in one of his post, however the link went to 12V strips.  The ones I’ve been able to find are cool white rather than warm white, I would be concerned the cool white would be too bright.  But I am in uncharted territory here so I really have no idea.

And while in uncharted territory, changing the design to use DC regulators with a bigger resistor is beyond my pay scale… I would have no idea.  Are you using the 5V LED strips with youir DC regulators?

Still lost,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

5 meter 5V Warm White LED strip, $6 shipped.

DC 5V USB LED Strips 2835 White Warm White Tira LED Strip

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

5 meter 5V Warm White LED strip, $6 shipped.

DC 5V USB LED Strips 2835 White Warm White Tira LED Strip

Interesting, thanks John.  Looks like this strip can be cut in one LED increments. Six bucks for 5 ft.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

And while in uncharted territory, changing the design to use DC regulators with a bigger resistor is beyond my pay scale… I would have no idea.  Are you using the 5V LED strips with youir DC regulators?

My regulator boards are a constant current design, so they regulate current and not voltage.  This works out to be more controllable as far as intensity for LED use as LED current vs light is a linear function.  However, LED voltage vs light is most certainly not a linear function, it's a very sharp knee from dim to cooked.

In an earlier post I explained each of the elements in the circuit, but I will repeat most of the explanations here.  The direct answers to your questions are in bold. I used the circuit boards provided by American Models because they did contain usable parts and spanned the two trucks from which to draw current. I started by disassembling the car, removing the circuit board, and de-soldering and removing the incandescent light bulbs.

I drilled a small hole through the printed circuit line to break the connection as described on the left of the picture below.  I did this so that I could insert a 22mH choke to bridge the connection. The choke was a recommendation for anyone who wanted to use the MTH DCS system and prevent interference with its signal to DCS-controlled locomotives.  The choke is the black rectangle with the red outline.  The break is represented by the disconnected yellow line below the choke image. If the car will never be used on a DCS system, the choke is not necessary.

The next element is the bridge rectifier, the gray circle in the diagram. The rectifier's job is to take in either DC current or alternating current and send out only the DC current required by the LEDs and the buck-boost module. The two yellow lines represent the current from the two trucks and connect to the proper legs of the rectifier. The rectifier cannot span the PCB board lines that are parallel on the board because those two lines are to be reserved for the "rectified" or "corrected" DC current out from the rectifier.

The rectified current out from the rectifier is represented by the black ( -) and the red ( + ) lines that can connect to the parallel printed circuit board lines on the PCB board. Be sure to note which line is going to be positive and which is negative because the buck boost converter has to connect to the right one. The capacitor, the blue cylinder in the diagram, also has to connect to the correct lines because it has a positive leg and a negative leg (represented by the white marking down the side of the capacitor. Capacitors have markings on them to show which leg is negative.) The idea behind the capacitor is that it acts as a "battery" to temporarily store a charge on it so that lights don't flicker when current from the wheels on the trucks sees slight interruptions due to dirty track or crossing switches. Capacitors DO reduce flicker; but unless track and wheels are clean in the first place, I found that they don't eliminate it.

The buck-boost converter has pads on each of the four corners for connections. Each is marked--two on one end for input and two on the other end for output. The red and black lines on the diagram represent the positive and negative current from the capacitor or, more easily, the correct parallel printed line on the PCB board. I just used the holes from a removed incandescent light bulb to solder a connection from the positive or negative line to the correct positive or negative input pad on the buck-boost module.

The buck-boost converters I used had voltage output settings too high for the LEDs when I removed them from their packages. To make initial adjustments, I hooked each one up to wires with alligator clips on both ends of the wire. I attached one end of each wire to the input ends of the modules and the other ends to the track. I applied 10 volts from the track and tested the voltage at the output pads of each converter module. The initial voltage was between 25 and 30 volts, so I turned the brass rheostat screw on each module counterclockwise so that the measured output was about 7-8 volts. If the track voltage was 5 volts, the module put out 7-8 volts. If the track voltage were 12 volts, the output would still be 7-8 volts; and that is how the lights stay "constant" even when the passenger train is moving fast or slowly. (It's easiest to adjust all the buck-boost converter modules in a batch rather than adjust each one to complete one car, then go to complete another car, and so forth.) I set all the readjusted modules aside. When I need one for the PCB board, I glued it to the underside of the PCB board, away from any windows so that it would not be visible. Then it was easy to solder connections to the module's pads to the old holes in the PCB board using small wires.

The LED light strips have adhesive on the the reverse side. Before I attached them to the PCB board, though, I soldered wires from the converter's output pads to the correct positive (red) and negative (black) inputs on the LED strips. The strips are marked as to + or - connections, and they have small solder spots on them to make the connection easier. (Getting a good connection at this point , however, was the most difficult part of the assembly and required testing multiple times to make sure the LEDs lit up.) Once I was convinced the connections were good and the LEDs lit up, I stripped off the waxy paper over the adhesive and glued the strips to the bottom of the PCB boards. Most, if not all, LED strips already have resistors attached to them to control current. The buck-boost converter alters the voltage to alter the light output from the LED strips. I used 12-volt strips because I already had some, and this type was the easiest to find.

I reattached the PCB boards to the under frames of each car but left the upper body off for further testing. Once I had finished all the cars--a long process because I included heavyweights, streamliners, Amtrak cars, and cabooses--I lined up all the cars of the same type on the same stretch of track and applied current to the track. The lighting varied a bit from car to car, but adjusting the brass rheostat on each converter allowed me to make the lighting entirely uniform for each car. As gunrunnerjohn points out, adjusting current is more controllable than adjusting voltage; but if the voltage from the buck-boost converter stays well below 12 volts for 12-volt LED strips, there is little danger from burning them out. Each car now had the same amount of illumination no matter if the track voltage was varied from 4.5 volts (for American Models DC locomotives pulling cars) up to 15 volts (for American Flyer Legacy AC locomotives). I moved each car along the track to check whether the connections were sound. After each car passed, I reattached the bodies to the frames.

The benefits outweigh the work involved: uniform lighting from car to car, uniform lighting at any speed above that requiring more than about 4 volts, low current draw, and minimum heat generated in each car. There are other ways to illuminate cars, but this worked for me.

Terry

Interesting, thanks John.  Looks like this strip can be cut in one LED increments. Six bucks for 5 ft.

Tom, That is $6.00 for 5 meters, somewhere over 15 ft,  excellent price, and to be able to use individual LEDs is a bonus.

Ray

Perhaps a picture will also help. There are three versions of the  AM passenger car lighting boards. The earliest, at the bottom of the picture just has the three incandescent bulbs. This came out of one of the long out of production lightweight 80’ scale cars when I replaced them with LED’s.

The one in the middle is likely the one Terry used and is out of a current production 70’ heavyweight coach. The board at the top is the newest AM LED version that is in some of the new heavyweights and is available for replacement use. The black LED boards have enough capacitance for 1/4 to 1/2 second power interruption.

These lighting boards are not designed to fit the Budd cars with their full interiors. It may be possible to adapt them for ceiling mounting, I have not tried that yet.

The second picture shows the LED board mounted in an AM 80’ sleeper. The outboard round holes are for 80’ cars and the inboard slotted holes are for the 70’ cars. They provide constant lighting with AC or DC conventional and with command control.

Tom,

I would ad one more piece of info, I put my strips on the roof of my cars and did find a few came loose with the adhesive that is on them. When I do the installations now I use a little contact cement to hold the strips to the roof. I prefer when the room is dark that the light shines down towards the ground on the layout. If you do need to change the strip or as I have add a tail light to the observation car, I was still able to remove the strip and solder to it and re-install with some more contact cement.

Ray

I use a few spots of CA adhesive or hot glue to insure the strips don't come loose.  As for low voltage operation, my regulator board will operate at any reasonable track voltage if you're using 5V LED strips, typically a train transformer starts out at 5-6 VAC, that works fine for the 5V strips.

Thanks again to everyone for your explanations and patience.  John, your board sounds perfect, but at $20 a car, I couldn’t afford that even if was the installed, ready-to-run, price.

So Terry, I don’t need a choke with straight DC track power – okay, but what if I upgrade to DCC?  When I Google 22mH chokes I see $3.00+ ones from Mouser while the 22R226C from Digi-Key is like 84¢.  With that kind of difference, I assume I am looking at two different things and doing something wrong… my head is spinning.

Still overall, I think I starting to understand what needs to be done and more importantly, what parts to order – except for the LED strips.  5V or 12V, do I care other than perhaps price?

Probably thinking too much,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Thanks again to everyone for your explanations and patience.  John, your board sounds perfect, but at $20 a car, I couldn’t afford that even if was the installed, ready-to-run, price.

I guess you didn't notice that was the price for two boards that would do two cars.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Still overall, I think I starting to understand what needs to be done and more importantly, what parts to order – except for the LED strips.  5V or 12V, do I care other than perhaps price?

Unless you have a buck/boost supply, you want the 5V strips.

https://www.mouser.com/Product...PHl1FCPZucit6Q%3D%3D

The link above is to the chokes I used. They cost about $0.30 each if you buy 10. They are only a recommendation in case the cars would run on a DCS system. At the time I did not know if MTH would become an important supplier to the S scale community, so I built in as much flexibility as possible at the lowest cost possible. As for DCC, I don't believe the addition of a choke will have an adverse effect on that system. I chose 12-volt strips because I had some extra from a home improvement kit, and because I had a bunch of 12-volt DC wall warts I am using to light buildings with extra sections. I found that cutting the strips in strings of three LEDs is the smallest I can go using the built-in resistors on the strips themselves.

The LED strips are either mounted on or supported close to the ceiling of each car or caboose so that the light shines downward on passengers visible through windows. No circuitry is visible in the cars.

Terry

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Thanks again to everyone for your explanations and patience.  John, your board sounds perfect, but at $20 a car, I couldn’t afford that even if was the installed, ready-to-run, price.

You want cheap?  How about a couple bucks a car as long as you're doing some soldering anyway.

GRJ's Original DIY Constant Current PAX Car Lighting Module Files

This is the same functionality as my boards on Henning's Trains site, you just have to build them.  Total cost is a couple bucks and they have all the attributes I talked about for my commercial module, the circuit is the same.

• Requires a small fraction of the power of conventional lighting
• Provides adjustable lighting intensity
• Storage capacitor on module provides flicker-free operation
• MTH DCS compatible, will not degrade DCS track signal
• Simple connections to power and LEDs

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

These are only BOOST converters, so if your track voltage goes over the max rating for your LED strips, you have a problem.

Below is a link to a buck/boost supply, note the two inductors.  This will keep the output voltage over the entire rated input voltage.

XL6009 DC-DC Step Up Step Down Boost Buck Power Supply

Note the one you specified says: Output Voltage Adjustable Step-up Converter Board Module

John, I found HiLetgo XL6009 for a better price.  Am I safe in assuming that any XL6009 will work?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B...pY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

The output voltage is a little different.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

John, I found HiLetgo XL6009 for a better price.  Am I safe in assuming that any XL6009 will work?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B...pY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

The output voltage is a little different.

No, it has the same problem, it's only a boost regulator.  If your track voltage goes past your set voltage, the output voltage will rise as well.  Since your rectifying your track voltage, and the typical voltage for the 12V strip will be more like 9-10 volts for proper illumination, any track voltage more than about seven-eight volts will result in the LED strips getting brighter as you increase track voltage.

The guy that wrote that description was smoking something strong and not sharing!  They're considerably larger than quoted!

Try .875" x 1.9" for an actual size.

Yes, I have some in my parts box.

Tom, I'm at a loss as to why you are looking for modules that big, they're a PITA to hide on most passenger cars.  I guess you didn't take notice of my previous post for the DIY module for a couple of bucks?  Using the 5V LED strips, it'll solve the lighting issue perfectly for your use.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The guy that wrote that description was smoking something strong and not sharing!  They're considerably larger than quoted!

Tom, I'm at a loss as to why you are looking for modules that big, they're a PITA to hide on most passenger cars.  I guess you didn't take notice of my previous post for the DIY module for a couple of bucks?  Using the 5V LED strips, it'll solve the lighting issue perfectly for your use.

John, I don't know either.  At a couple of buck per car your module is by far the cheapest.  What is the actual size and where do I order?

If I upgrade to DCC, will it still work?

I've tried to compile Terry's circuit and parts into a Word document.  I find I am still lacking a value for the capacitor.  It's hard to do when you have no idea of how the finished circuit works and my searches on values have taken me to several wrong components... I'm about ready to give it up.

Tired,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom, GRJ's light control module is ideal for the AM Budd cars if LED's are used. The other possibility is to buy the new AM LED circuit boards at $7/car and adapt them to the Budd cars. The problem I see with that is the lumen output of the three LED's on the AM boards is not adjustable. Having installed a lot of these AM boards in AM heavyweight coaches, they are bright. They were designed for the frosted window inserts with the black passenger silhouettes and the LED's are whiter and brighter than the incandescent bulbs provided by AM.

I just checked one of my AM heavyweights with the LED's in it. With AC track power they trigger on at about 5V. I am testing it with an MRC AH101 which is seriously non-sinusoidal at low voltages, so I do not trust that my meter is providing an accurate voltage measurement.

With GRJ's controller you can pick the color temperature of the LED's used with it and the intensity is adjustable. If I ever get around to replacing the incandescent lights in my fleet of Budd cars I know I will not be using a buck-boost regulator. My layout is command control so its a lot easier. The longest set of Budd cars I run is 8 with incandescent and two domes with LED's. Those 10 cars plus a Legacy engine do not come close to challenging the 10A from one channel of a ZW-L.

If you change to DCC there will then be a constant 15V on the track, GRJ's controller will work the same.

@AmFlyer posted:

If you change to DCC there will then be a constant 15V on the track, GRJ's controller will work the same.

Good, I will go that direction.  GRJ has given a link for the 5V LED strips and I think I'll add some JST mini connectors. 26AWG wire...

https://www.amazon.com/FainWan...b3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

John, I don't know either.  At a couple of buck per car your module is by far the cheapest.  What is the actual size and where do I order?

If I upgrade to DCC, will it still work?

I've tried to compile Terry's circuit and parts into a Word document.  I find I am still lacking a value for the capacitor.  It's hard to do when you have no idea of how the finished circuit works and my searches on values have taken me to several wrong components... I'm about ready to give it up.

If you look at the link, you'll see you build them, but all the parts are readily available and they're simple to build. Since you are looking at other solutions that require component soldering, it seems like these would work out better and be more suitable.  Yes, they would run fine on DCC voltage on the tracks.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Good, I will go that direction.  GRJ has given a link for the 5V LED strips and I think I'll add some JST mini connectors. 26AWG wire...

https://www.amazon.com/FainWan...b3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Wrong pitch for the connector sets, you need to look for the JST-XH connectors if you want them to fit the boards I'm talking about.

FWIW, for a little size perspective, here are some photos of John’s DIY pcb finished, and, his commercial pcb.  Plus a couple of not as good alternatives.  In one photo the recommended components are listed.  Hope this helps.

Just an endorsement...I'm a big fan of John's regulator sold by Henning's and cut-to-fit LED light strip reels. I keep a supply of both on hand so I can quickly address any bothersome flickering. Super simple....some positioning, some cutting, some soldering, some adhering into place. No knowledge needed of all the circuitry components/assembly discussed above.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You want cheap?  How about a couple bucks a car as long as you're doing some soldering anyway.

GRJ's Original DIY Constant Current PAX Car Lighting Module Files

This is the same functionality as my boards on Henning's Trains site, you just have to build them.  Total cost is a couple bucks and they have all the attributes I talked about for my commercial module, the circuit is the same.

• Requires a small fraction of the power of conventional lighting
• Provides adjustable lighting intensity
• Storage capacitor on module provides flicker-free operation
• MTH DCS compatible, will not degrade DCS track signal
• Simple connections to power and LEDs

I think I found the boards on the Osh Park site, however they are more than a couple of bucks and do not include the components.  I also looked at HENNINGS TRAINS, but did not find any DIY kits...

Did I misunderstand something?  I thought the DIY kit had everything you needed to complete the module, but that does not appear to be true.  I'm about ready to give up...

Tom Stoltz

Tom, Osh Park pricing is for quantity 3 at $3.80 shipped.  That’s $1.27 per pcb.  The components to complete the board can be ordered from Digikey or Mouser or offshore for pennies per component.  Offshore is cheapest but a wait is involved due to shipping generally.  Below is a representative cost per board, parts included, that I paid a couple years ago.  A little research using the parts list from Digikey or Mouser will give you todays pricing list. Buying in quantity will lower the pricing somewhat.  In the end, certainly you have to decide how you want to proceed, or not.  We’re just here to help.  If we aren’t meeting your needs, it may be time for us to move on.

You can buy the boards from OSHPark, but if you use a place like JLCPCB, they can be MUCH cheaper.  I just ordered 25 1" x 2" boards from JLCPCB, and the total price was a bit over $10. 

As a test, I just entered an order for 100 of the lighting boards under discussion at JLCPCB, and the total cost including shipping was $11.90, so that's 12 cents a board!  It don't get much cheaper than that!

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Did I misunderstand something?  I thought the DIY kit had everything you needed to complete the module, but that does not appear to be true.  I'm about ready to give up...

You keep saying you're about to give up, and truthfully it's getting a little tiring.  We all trying to accommodate you here, and the constant defeatism is wearing.   Truthfully, if you want an "all inclusive" solution to the board, I gave you one, you're just not willing to pay for it: LED Lighting Regulator.

I get that you don't want to spend the money for the pre-made and tested modules, but time is money.  If you want to spend less money, you will spend more time.  Quite frankly, I seriously doubt you'll spend less money than a little judicious shopping for boards and components for this lighting board and the matching 5V LED strips.  Yes, you're going to have to put a little more effort into it, and we've certainly been trying to help you achieve your goal.

Tom, I have one more possibility. I couple my AM passenger cars together to make several trains. I almost never uncouple the cars after that. What you can do is buy a strip of lights and cut them up for each passenger car. Buy one of GRJ's pre-made regulator boards just for the head end passenger car in each train set. Then power all the cars in the set from that one regulator. Each car will only need 3 or 4 LEDs. The cars will be connected with two pin jacks if just the head end car is used for power pickup. A four pin is used if you want to use all the cars for power pickup. Two pins bring the track power back to the head end car and two send the regulator power to the trailing cars. It is easy to swap, add or subtract cars from a train set. Additionally, all the cars will be the same brightness with just one regulator to adjust that controls all the lights.

Hi Everybody,

It’s been some time since I have collected all the part necessary to build GRJ’s passenger car lighting circuit.  The weather changed and I am outside for the rest of the season and all the parts are in a box waiting for me to get back to train stuff.  I wanted to thank everyone for their patience in helping me get to this point and especially John and Ted, who really guided me through a bunch of hurtles – Thank you.

With John’s help, I was able to get the price down to about $4.40/car.  That was a decent price to pass by my accountant, I mean, wife.  Of course I didn’t tell her that I invested enough to do 50 cars worth – that’s beside the point.  LOL

So now I am looking forward to learning how to solder a PCB and have found lots of uTubes on the subject…  should be easy enough.  I will report on my progress when I get back to the train room.

Thanks again,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

So now I am looking forward to learning how to solder a PCB and have found lots of uTubes on the subject…  should be easy enough.  I will report on my progress when I get back to the train room.

Start with the proper tools.  A decent soldering iron with temperature control is very important for PCB work, and I recommend 63/37 Rosin Core Solder for the task.  Important tip, especially for soldering neophytes!  Do NOT try to use lead-free solder!  It's much harder to work with than leaded solder, and many people complain about how difficult soldering is, and much of the reason is they're using this stuff!

Soldering Station, Merece Digital Soldering Iron Kit w/ 176℉-896℉

63/37 Rosin Core Solder

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Start with the proper tools.  A decent soldering iron with temperature control is very important for PCB work, and I recommend 63/37 Rosin Core Solder for the task.  Important tip, especially for soldering neophytes!  Do NOT try to use lead-free solder!  It's much harder to work with than leaded solder, and many people complain about how difficult soldering is, and much of the reason is they're using this stuff!

Soldering Station, Merece Digital Soldering Iron Kit w/ 176℉-896℉

63/37 Rosin Core Solder

Hi John,

I do have an old Weller WSD81 station and some conical tips for it.  IIRC, Ted suggested setting the temp at 555°.  I also have Kester 63/37 that’s labeled ‘No Clean’.  It does say it is resin core, but as I mentioned to Ted, I had to add flux when soldering Western Union splices using 18AWG.  The wire was striped just before I tried to solder, but the solder wouldn’t flow until I added flux.  Now I’m not sure if I need to add flux to the PCB or not.  When I add flux, I wash it off with denatured alcohol.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

One issue with many soldering stations is any temperature display is way off in calibration.  That results in either insufficient heat or way too much heat.  One of the reasons I like my Hakko FX-888D soldering station is the fact that it has a calibration feature.  I can use the FG-100 calibrator to set the exact tip temperature and have it matched to the digital display.  That way when I dial in 500F, I know that's really what I'm getting.

For surface mount parts, I use 500F (260C), for thru-hole I usually kick it up a bit to around 550F (290C).