Key Model Imports?

Bob3,

Go to Wasatchmodels.com.

Three E2s are listed:

Type 1  1935 - 1942, COLA &COSF

Type 3  1941, COLA & COSF

Type 3  COSF in Daylight colors

ChipR

Hi Chip.  I believe bob3 is talking about the Santa Fe E1 models that were built with all the mods that the Santa Fe did to them over the years.  I didn't do the research of any of the Santa Fe E1's, E3's, and E6's.  The person who did is very knowledgeable on the Santa Fe and he decided to do the E1 in the version in was for most of it's life.  The "As Built" E1 didn't stay "As Built" for very long, maybe 18 months would be the longest for any of them before they were modified.

Yeah Roger- You know we did the E5 Black nose as it was in most of its life from 1940-1958 with the modified hinged coupler doors. The Q in time starting in and around 1942 added anti-glare paint around the windshields as silver and later just plain dull black, grab irons and other FRA requirements came along in the late late 1940's and early 50's. Skirts just plain fell off; and eventually in 1947-1949 they phased them out. We decided since the black nose models would be built as a homage to the E5 they must have skirts (removable of course) and following this dynamic it was best to build them as we did in the 1942-1948 era. The as built from EMC E5 lasted about 10 months! Those large bolt on coupler covers had to go! And the glare in the morning sun was a danger to the crews coming off the mirror stainless finish. The red nose was another story, post 1958 meant a lot of changes that lasted into the C&S years and finally the cutting torch in 1966-1967.

I like the E1's as they were built but it goes both ways; shelf queens would be nice as built. But as a ATSF fan and operator I would prefer the modifications the road added in the immediate years following delivery. One thing is for sure the researcher is a legend in his work; a museum curator calibre investigator for certain.  

A lot of talk on brass models lately. Is it that there isn't much being produced in plastic and people are getting bored? I know I am but not enough to lay out thousands on one model unless my venture in to trying finding aftremarket shares of FB cheap.

.

Phil

Some of us are interested in discussing brass. Why not start a topic on plastic if that is your interest.

Simon

Cut him some slack?  After all, I am the one who brought up doorstops - a lot further from actual scale models than plastic.

Just seems to me to be the most efficient way to discuss plastic if that is your goal. Since you brought it up, maybe you should do the same thing with the doorstops.

Simon

"""A lot of talk on brass models lately. Is it that there isn't much being produced in plastic and people are getting bored? I know I am but not enough to lay out thousands on one model unless my venture in to trying finding aftremarket shares of FB cheap."""

Good observation Phil and I think some of the discussion has been due to the really fine brass locos offered by KEY and other importers the past couple of years. Erik's and Roger's excellent photos, information and comparison shots have done more (in my opinion) to bring KEY loco information to the masses and generate discussion than any other factor I can think of. KEY was always surrounded by a bit of mystic (again opinion) and all the info and photos that has been shared lately has sort of pulled the curtain away from the wizard. They've always had a strong customer base but the guy on the street seldom saw the models except at shows and a few hobby shops. Now we have photos being posted and shared on numerous train forums and people are learning more and have questions.  Roger would know better than I, but it looks like KEY as been importing more in the past few years than they did since the 90's.

Considering this is a train forum I personally don't think comments or questions having to do with brass/plastic or doorstop trains is out of line. It's all has to do with this brass locos thread and if we learn from it it's valid in my book.

Just my $.02.

Butch

I brought up the plastic issue as it seems there is less going on in new models in that area and more nice brass. I used to collect brass and was very selective about it because of price and then came Atlas and almost in the same breath came the great recession and Atlas slowed in producing new models. I was still looking for certain models to be produced but companies weren't going to put the money out when times are bad. Brass is still the major part of my engine fleet but they are not newer ones as I had to dig back in time to find ones I liked that were produced  in the 80's. They are OK but not as nice as the new ones that cost more than the DD40s I do have. But the brass people haven't produced any new models either outside OMI and they too  have slowed. So, withthe slowing  in the market of new models has left me,depressed, so to speak as finding a model and adding it to ones fleet is stimulating if not exciting. And lately the excitement has left somewhat.  

Erik, your club layout closing for years? So where are you going to play? Are there any other clubs about for you or do you become a collector of fine models.   

Call me the Grinch. I have nothing against plastic, doorstops, or any other thing with wheels that rides on rails (nor any of the folks that have interest in all that stuff). That said, I do think that in consideration of the topic originator, that replies should be related to the original subject. Otherwise, anarchy rules.

 Heck, if you have something else that is that good, make a new post, because I'll probably WANT to see it! If it's buried down in some other thread, people that might have interest and good input may very well miss it!

Here with phill we have exactly that case: a post that merits it's own topic, but it is buried down here under Key Imports, and anyone that doesn't give a hoot about Key or high end brass will NEVER see it. We ALL lose.

My 29 cents!

Simon

I am not an advocate for Brass or Plastic- as long as it is a good model I m for it.

Still dreaming in Exact-Rail in O!

I have Santa Fe E1's, E3's, and E6's pilled to the ceiling.  They arrived today thanks to FEDEX and I will be posting photos on Keys web site and my web site later today.

To say the least they are knock down BEAUTIFUL.  I have one A unit of each out and to my surprise decided I like the E1 the best even in it's modified version.  

Photos will be here later today:

http://www.keymodels.net/

http://www.wasatchmodels.com/

Taking reservations for the FT's now.  These models just keep getting better with each run.

So if anyone wants a Key ATSF E1 AB let me know.  I have to decide tomorrow whether I will loose less money getting and selling the ones my LHS has for me or walking away from the deposit.

Richard

Richard is between a rock and a hard place with his ATSF E1 set.  He wanted and expected the 'As Built" version and Dave produced the "Modified" E1's.  The "As Built" E1's didn't last very long, less then 18 months for the longest one, most were modified within 6 months.  But it's understanding why modelers would want the 'As Built" E1.  I know I do.

 The "As Built" E1's didn't last very long, less then 18 months for the longest one, most were modified within 6 months.

This is my opinion.

The E1's did last into 1939 looking nearly as built.  There are pictures in John McCall's  "Early Diesel Daze" for reference.  The first mod to the E1's was a slight change to the pilot front coupler doors, which was the addition of louvers.  That would be the 6 month mod.

There is a Joe Schick picture dated May 16, 1938  on page 87 that notes that a yellow number "2" had been painted on each side, centered above the lead truck.  I see no other modifications. 

Then on page 90, an Otto Perry picture dated February 22, 1939 shows #2 with a large #2 on the side that lasted from then on.  I don't see any other modifications and the number boards and class lights are as delivered.

My point is that by February 22, 1939, I believe the Super Chief trainset was in it's 3rd configuration having gone through 2, 2.5, and 3, while the only modification to it's body was the louvers on the pilot and the numbers on the side (which had very recently been place there).

The reason for the as built or (possibly with louvers version), is that it is the classic historic version for which so many photos and paintings exist.  If the Smithsonian decided to place a Key E1 in their collection and there was a choice of "as built" or "as modified", the as built would be chosen.

As a modeler, the as built version goes with the Sunset/GGD 1st streamlined Super Chief set and is the only way to properly have the 1st streamlined Super Chief train.  The 40's as modified version doesn't work, by then that first trainset had bee broken up and used on other trains.

Personally, as a Santa Fe fan, I'm thrilled with the version produced, however I wanted the "as produced" version.  I will keep the E1 that Key has produced and hope that there will be a chance for the "as produced" version to go along with my "1st Streamlined Super Chief cars at some point in the future.

Frankly, I was surprised that the E1 was as modified and the E3 was as built.  I would have done it the other way around, but that's just my humble opinion.

I personally would take them in spite of the mods, I suspect they will grow on you and bear in mind what are the chances of these units being made again in the next decade by a quality brass importer.I think the added details add a lot to the model witness the Santa Fe E8s from the last run.

Numbers and assignments

Each E1 was initially ordered for and assigned to a particular train. The ATSF practice was to give all locomotive units in a set the same number, distinguished by letter. The lead unit was designated 'L', but this was not carried on its numberboards. The second unit was 'A'; subsequent units were 'B', 'C', if present. This numbering was part of the railroads' ultimately successful campaign to convince the railroad unions that a multiple-unit diesel locomotive should be considered one locomotive of several parts (and thus needing only one crew) rather than multiple locomotives requiring multiple crews under union agreements.

• 2 and 2A - for the original streamlined Super Chief.
• 3 and 3A - for the second streamlined Super Chief trainset.
• 4 and 4A - backup power for the Super Chief.
• 5 - for the El Capitan.
• 6 - for the El Capitan.
• 7 - for the San Diegan.
• 8 - for the Golden Gate.
• 9 - for the Golden Gate.

E1 # 2 on Dec 4, 1937 - Please note the slots in the Pilot, they were delivered with solid Pilots, no slots.  So the Santa Fe "modified #2" soon after it arrived it appears.  

E1 #2 on Feb 22, 1939 with Large #2 on side and Bell on roof

E1 #5 on November 5, 1938

E1 #5 on February 22, 1939, 3 months later with Large #5 on Side and Bell on Roof.

E1 #7 on Aug 1, 1940.  Need to track down the build dates of all the E1's. All i can find is they were built in 1937-1938.  #7 has the large number on the side, bell on the roof and steps on the pilot.  No dates on when these details were added.

This photo and all the above similar photos are Otto C. Perry Photographs from the Western History Department of the Denver Public Library.  Thanks to Mr. Perry for all his photographs, what a collection he left all of us.

E1 "AS Built" - Notice the solid Pilot, no slots as show on all the above E1 photos, it appears this was done soon after they arrived on the Santa Fe property.  So the question remains, how long did they really stay in the "AS Delivered" condition?

Gary Schrader saved me some time and took photos of all the Santa Fe E Units.

I'll post all of his photos on Keys web site asap.

Great collection of E1 photos.  It does seem time and time again that the railroads made mods often and made them quickly to suit their needs.  Based on the photos and such it would appear the E1s were modified quickly.

Roger - I cannot give enough praise for those involved in the Key Santa Fe E unit project.  WOW, they are stunning!

BTW - put into the context of that picture, I now see why the E3 was done "as delivered".  

Oh, and I almost forgot, thanks for the pictures and explanation.  I did miss the bell on the Feb 22, 1939 picture of #2.  Thanks for pointing that out.

I would think that the coupler mounted behind the area where the slots were

added and it might have been a way to better move the covers to reveal the

couplers. Get a grip!

I just posted the Key E1 and E3 photos on Key's web site.  

http://www.keymodels.net/

I'll post the E6 photos later today or tomorrow.

Even then they did not have that ridiculous number board above the windshields and the original number boards were lit.  The other things I could probably just rip or wipe off to backdate but not that.

Well the ones I just got stuck with are for sale and then no more Key anything for me.  3 strikes and...

Richard

The Gospel according to Worley:

1 Class:

1: 8/35

1A: 8/35

2 Class:

#2:12/37

#2A: 12/37

#3: 1/38

#3A: 1/38

#4: 4/38

#4A: 4/38

#5: 2/38

#6: 2/38

#7: 2/38

#8: 3/38

#9: 4/38

Rusty

They could have looked a lot worse.  The latest Classic Trains covers all the E-units and has a photograph of a mock-up at EMC that looked more like a cross between an FM Erie-Built and British Deltic.  Plus the original concept apparently was of a B-A1A truck arrangement.

Rusty

Richard,  I know you are not happy with the Santa Fe E1's with all the mods which is the way they ran for most of their life.  I told you I can get an ATSF "AS DELIVERED" E1 set but you are so mad about this situation you are going to cut your nose off to spite your face.  These models are the best I've ever seen and if you can just wait about 7 months you can have the Santa Fe E1 exactly "AS BUILT".   These E1's were very over reserved and you will not have any problem selling them.  I'll take your set to the National and sell them for you.  No charge.  

"Cutting off the nose to spite the face" is an expression used to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem: "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" is a warning against acting out of pique, or against pursuing revenge in a way that would damage oneself more than the object of one's anger.

I must say these E1's are drop dead gorgeous, I only wish I could afford them right now.  I appreciate the discussion going on here guys...I am learning a bunch of stuff. Thanks.....

Every time I come to look at this post  I am so admireing Eriks picture with such a great sky and lighting of the background hills. It should become a picture for a  month on a calender. Ever thought of doing a calender with the layout before it is eliminated with such skies and lighting.

Phill

Thanks to Mr. Perry for all his photographs, what a collection he left all of us.

And videos!  Its pretty amazing to watch a 1940's Santa Fe Super Chief with E6's and a Santa Fe (N&W Y-3) helper snaking through Raton pass.  Otto is certainly a member of my "Hall of Fame".

Well, I prefer brass, steel, or wood.  Maybe some aluminum.  I also prefer non-regimented discussions, where folks can speak of plastic if they want.  Marching in lock-step is not for me.

Opinion.

Roger,

Now that you have announced here that additional models will be available I have no reason not to tell my LHS that Key did not make him aware of that nor offer the chance to move my existing reservation over if these are so much in demand. 

I don't believe for a minute they will actually be here in 7 months and certainly not at the same price.

I'll tell you what, if you're at OSW next year and they actually have been delivered to purchasers by then (8 months from now) at the same price I'll give you $50 cash just because I was wrong.

I need to stop waiting and move on.  I've got 6 1950 passenger trains (5 now that a Wasatch 1950 Sunset appears dead, lucky I didn't get any Key PAs or E7s for that) I want to try and put together decent models of and a 1937 SC was an odd duck in the first place. 

Richard