Actually, you can build a real Legacy locomotive with available parts now.
The RS6 boards as you have indicated. You can also buy the Legacy R4LC, and the Legacy back-EMF driver, that's basically a Cruise Commander M that speaks Legacy. It was used in some AF Legacy models.
You'll also need a motherboard for the R4LC to tie it all together.
That was my point. The only way to use an RS6 board is to go all Legacy. If you go with ERR then the best audio will either be Lionel RS 5 or ERR Railsounds. I am not aware of a generic RS 5 board. They are all engine specific. You could use ERR with the separate sale PT tender but it too is engine specific for the ESE cab number 5429. User selectable sounds sets are one area where DCS shines.
Pete
I don't know which Legacy motor drivers are available now - if what John's saying is true, it might be off the recent SD70ACE's in S gauge - but if this is true, it might just be easier to go full Legacy mode instead with all the proper pieces. Again, I don't want nor need to, but if it is the only way to operate the 6.0 sounds, I might as well be the test monkey.
In the end, I think I'd still spend less than half the amount of a $1600+ Vision 700E. 
I won't argue with DCS there, though.
BTW, Lionel also is selling their RS5.5 boards, which look exactly the same as the 5.0 boards, and they were also made for Legacy.
You should be able to use the motor driver board from the Vision Hudson. The difficult part will be mounting the speed sensor on your motor. I think Lionel is only selling first generation Legacy. The Vision Hudson has a large motor. If this is for a Timko smaller Mabuchi then maybe a speed sensor from a Legacy Diesel might work. The NYC GP7 was one of the first if not the first Legacy Diesel.
I think there a thread on the forum about upgrading an engine to Legacy if you want to get an idea of all that is involved.
Pete
Thomas,
If you plan on using the RailSounds 6 audio board (along with the powered motherboard) as a stand-alone sound system, you're probably OK. But as mentioned above, you'll likely run into trouble if you plan on using the RS6 board with anything older than an R4LC.
One more thing to keep in mind... In the R2LC/TMCC systems through RailSounds 4, there was a board in the tender (the AD20) that handled receiving the serial line commands over the wireless tether and then relaying this to the audio and RS power boards in the tender. The AD20 also handled the back-up light (incandescent) and the rear coupler. Starting with RailSounds 5 (and including 5.5 and 6.0), the AD20 was eliminated and those functions were handled by the RS audio board. My guess is that the RS powered motherboard doesn't have the connections for the back-up light (LED on RS5 and above), rear coupler, and wireless tether, so you might need to tap into the appropriate pins on the audio board for those functions.
TRW
Option B is to buy the actual motherboard from a Legacy tender and use the standard RS power, it's the same one from RS3 through RS6. That should have all the connections for the coupler, light, and IR receiver.
I'd use the Legacy back-EMF motor driver and dispense with the issues of mounting the tach sensor wheel and board, that could get tricky.
Back emf would be the way to go if you could get the boards.
This is actually the Legacy version and its now listed no longer available.
Pete
Thanks for the insight, Todd. Fortunately, all of ERR's command modules come with R4LC receivers now.
I'm not sure how easy it would be to install IR tethers on an old locomotive like this, and I planned on not having one in the first place. Nor did it have a backup light (or hole for it for that matter).
The last time I did an upgrade like this (the 18018 Southern Mikado), I just needed the Cruise commander, power board and 5.0 sound chip, and the 3 color (red, blue and green) cable to connect the two to let the commander transfer the hot, ground and serial data to the sound motherboard. That was basically it, and all this was housed in the tender. The only electronics in the locomotive were the LED lighting and the Super Chuffer to control the new fan smoke unit.
Let's take into account everything that needs to go into this Hudson locomotive:
The locomotive has no cab detail back head, so therefore has a lot of space to put next to the new smaller can motor. With those goals, the list of needed parts are:
Let me know if I'm missing anything.
The R4LC that comes with the ERR stuff is still only a TMCC receiver, it's the firmware loaded that determines if it speaks Legacy. The C08 version loaded into the ERR R4LC makes it appear just like the common R2LC-C08 version.
If you are using the Cruise Commander, I don't know of any "official" Lionel solution to generating the chuffs or controlling the smoke. However, I can recommend a solution that works for many people, the Chuff-Generator and the Super-Chuffer.
You had to see that coming, right?
Yes, John, I did. Considering I bought one of each at York, I know they work very well with ERR upgrades and are very easy to install. Of course this is if I went with the Cruise commander.
If I went with the Legacy motor driver, I might have to add something else to control it instead. Of course using the Chuff Generator and Super Chuffer would be much easier and fit into the rather tight confines of the American Hudson's boiler, minus the open cab, if the two could cooperate with each other.
The plastic coal load on the 18005's tender would be easy to create a Command antenna. Do Legacy locomotives have an antenna despite the 2.4 GHz frequency?
Again, IF (and keyword IF) the basic sounds (chuff, bell, whistle and maybe CrewTalk) of the 6.0 board can be controlled with the ERR commander, that's all I need. And again, I will not be using a wireless tether.
Oh yeah, and in a future plan to mate the 18056 Hudson with the CC2 PT tender, a simple swap of sound boards from 5 to 6.0 would be another beast of a problem altogether as well? 
Everyone viewing this page is hitting on my virtual estate sale website, because MIKADO 4501 linked to the pic of the 18005 Hudson appearing in his Google image search results. Interesting to see the back end effects of linking to a Google image, which I often do myself. Happy to be of assistance. Promise not to sell or otherwise capitalize on the information imparted with each hit.
The older Legacy using the modular board system still required a chuff switch to trigger the chuffs. Given that fact, the Chuff-Generator and Super-Chuffer are still the way I'd pick to handle the smoke unit, even with the Legacy boards. However, since the Legacy version of the back-EMF motor driver appears to be unavailable, building the all-Legacy solution doesn't appear to be all that attractive.
I'm watching this with interest. I have a MTH PS-1 Hudson I want to upgrade to TMCC, but also want more Hudson like sounds.
I don't know for sure how the RS6 board would react to the 8 bit code from TMCC on the serial data. It may work, but I don't have one out in the wild to test. This is a question for someone like Rudy or Jon Z. from Lionel I suspect.
sinclair posted:I'm watching this with interest. I have a MTH PS-1 Hudson I want to upgrade to TMCC, but also want more Hudson like sounds.
You'd think being one of the most commonly produced locomotives in 3-Rail, NYC Hudson specific upgrade sounds by Lionel would sell hundreds to those who want them upgraded.
Guess it's time to contact one of them to see...
I heard that the RS6 board will not give you what you want with TMCC signals. you may get some functionality but it wont be what is expected.
If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture. However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture. However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.
I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.
Railsounds posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture. However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.
I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.
I would be glad to test this if I had a board, hint, hint. 
Pete
Railsounds posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:If I were more energetic, I'd open up something with the RS6 board and try it in my test fixture. However, I have too many other fish to fry, so I'll suggest it for someone else.
I'm in the same boat, someone might want to do the test but I'm afraid it won't be me.
If someone want's to donate a RS6 board to me, I'll test it out. I just don't want to spend $100 to find out it won't work with the 8-bit TMCC serial data! 
I see Pete had the same idea.
Okay, Ill take a look into this.... I have ERR and Legacy boards laying around....give me a few days
Shucks, and here I was angling for a free RS6 board. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with, I'm kinda' curious myself.
I went digging in my sound board box tonight, and found the only RS6 board I had. I first installed it in a good Legacy chassis with an R4LC (from the 6-18993 C&NW S-2 Switcher) to make certain everything worked properly.
The one hiccup is that I think this particular RS6 board, which is unlabeled, is the "front/loco" board for the UP Challenger two-board system that doesn't have all the sounds populated (like CrewTalk, TowerCom, rear ElectroCoupler) in the usual locations in the ROM. Having said that, this particular RS6 board appears to work identically with either an R2LC (C13) or R4LC (S03) installed.
I also tried a Legacy RS5.5 board, this one from the Santa Fe Atlantic #1484, with the full sound set contained on the single board. Same thing here -- it seems to work the same regardless of either an R2LC or R4LC installed.
One more thing to note: while these RS5.5 and RS6 sound systems worked fine with an R2LC in place of an R4LC, the Legacy motor driver in the S-2 chassis would only respond to an R4LC.
So I think it's encouraging that what Thomas proposed above could work. But since I don't have any early Legacy steam locos around to test the R2LC/RS6 with an IR tether (not needed for Thomas' installation) or the rear coupler/back-up light functionality, perhaps Mr. Bruk can specifically check this out as well as verify my findings above.
Hope this helps.
TRW
I've asked the same question before, "can you run a legacy sound board with the ERR cruise commander?". My theory is yes, myself and my fellow repair guy Dustin at Eastside trains asked the same question a few years ago. We had a long discussion about it, but we never had a chance to try it out. Since then I have acquired some legacy 5.5 and 6.0 and RS Lite boards and I have an ERR package not yet installed. Ill try and find time to test this. Because I do seek an answer that I have asked many years ago (3).
Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.
Pete
Yep, if I had the RS6 board, I was just going to slap it into my test setup for TMCC to see if it worked. 
The problem you may run in to is incompatibility that varies board to board. I am the guy that built a Legacy GG-1 from a William's Scale engine with the back EMF Legacy board, and hooked to a TMCC RS 5.0 GG-1 sound set. I went through hell working on this with consults to experts until I found the right combination of R4LC Code along with a buffer to get it from corrupting the serial data and ceasing to function after a set time.
Second issue is the reliability and standard of those Powered Mother boards. They all do not work right. I have had several NOT work right out of the package. Or have issues degrading the serial data.
Third this will be an expensive proposition and time consuming endeavor, so you better under stand the architecture and how the system works, or you will be chasing your tail.
If you get the parts for free and you have nothing better to do with your time, go for it. At this point, I just go ERR for those wanting TMCC upgrades. The mix and match was consuming too much time, and your unsupported if a part you get from Lionel does not work later down the road when you use it.
With ERR you get full support with a defective product. Just my 2 cents. G
GGG posted:Second issue is the reliability and standard of those Powered Mother boards. They all do not work right. I have had several NOT work right out of the package. Or have issues degrading the serial data.
After you told me this, I checked all of mine. There was one that was dead from Lionel. Since I'd had them for some time, I just bit the bullet and tossed it in my dead boards bin. If I work up a lot of energy some day, I may try to see what failed on it.
Norton posted:Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.
Pete
I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...
The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.
Bruk posted:Norton posted:Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.
Pete
I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...
The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.
But can the tmcc R4LC send the 9 bit code needed for legacy sounds like quilllable whistle?
Santa Fe 3751 posted:Bruk posted:Norton posted:Bruk, if you want to try out your Legacy sound boards all you need is an engine that has Lionel modular tmcc boards and swap out the audio board. It doesn't have to be ERR. ERR uses a standard Lionel R2LC or lately an 8 bit R4LC.
Pete
I already know for a fact that it works if that's what you guys wanted to know, I have tested that many times before...
The rail sounds 6 board was just a newer version of the 5.5 and previous versions to get away from the chip design and be able to program directly. If you guys have Legacy 990 you can actually run your LEGACY locomotives in the TMCC mode and with the speed steps. You have to change the settings. You can even run your engines in TMCC mode and with Legacy RailSounds on. Anyways I thought what mikado 4501 wanted to know was if he can use the ERR commander with a Legacy RS6 board. He said he wanted just the Legacy Sounds...and my guess is he is trying to get it from a Vision Line Hudson. which is equipped with a RS6 package. Not the "6.5" which is the RSLite board.
But can the tmcc R4LC send the 9 bit code needed for legacy sounds like quilllable whistle?
In theory yes..... Since Legacy is mainly 9 bit serial data and the R4LC is a 9 bit radio board it should work.
I have used the ERR R4LC board that comes in the kit as a temporary board replacement for my early LEGACY FEF-3 Northern. while waiting for a new one. From experiences in the past I believe the Rail sounds board knows the difference between 8 and 9 bit data and it will respond accordingly.
But I still need to test this on my bench. I haven't had anytime to do so this week.
The R4LC-08 firmware doesn't know anything about the quillable whistle, so I'd be amazed if it can make that happen. The ERR R4LC is a drop-in replacement for the R2LC-08 and doesn't have any expanded capabilities.
Just because it is the R4LC hardware does not mean is works with Legacy if it has TMCC C08 Software installed. The Software won't use 9 bits. When testing this you also need to run for a significant period beyond a 5 min test. Getting it to work for 5 minutes doesn't mean it will work for 15 minutes. Trust me:-)
Guys that want to try this should do it. See if it works under operating conditions. If so report what specific hardware with software codes you used. G
What makes you think that George? Something about the burning wagons around your pioneer cabin?
It was an interesting learning experience, that has carried over to some issues I see with other Legacy products. Still can not be explained why though. 
Of course that is a week of my life I will never get back either G
GGG posted:Of course that is a week of my life I will never get back either
Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt. However, you typically learn some valuable lessons in the process.
Thomas, any new progress on this?
Matt,
Sorry about the hiatus.
I sent my 18005 Hudson loco to Frank Timko a couple of weeks ago, and he said I should be getting it back soon with the DC can motor and new fan driven smoke unit. While it was away, I plopped in Electric RR Cruise in its tender, plus a new baffled speaker, but otherwise no progress on the sounds.
Bruk's been busy, too, and I'm still trying to find a Gold Hudson audio board somewhere, so I may just try and test out the 6.0 board on a whim. Pete's doing a similar project on the Hi-Rail forum.
I had some time this morning and this is what I found in my tests.... using a ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds 5.5 board from a ATSF E6 Atlantic.
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