I just purchased a prewar 8040 set. In it, it had a 1660 overprinted 2660 box. The crane itself had no identifying numbers. Would this be considered the 660 crane?
Attachments
Images (5)
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
The crane is the 2660, and there were three different crane cars made by Lionel in Prewar. The 810, 2660, and 2810, all offered in different years. Your's is the 2660, that someone misprinted the number after crossing off the original number. Lionel never used the number 1660 on anything, and it won't be found anywhere. Lionel number 1651E is and electric loco, then the next number in their sequence was the 1661E steam engine, 1662, 63, 64 steam engines.
Greenberg's guide Lionel trains 1988, 1901-1942 volume, page 59 and 66, talks about the 1660 and 660 crane. The 2660 has either a rubber stamp or nickel plate, this has neither
If you get the Greenberg 2nd edition book dated 2001, page 142, there is a mention of only the number 660. The mention is in a block in the middle of the page titled "The Development of the 650 Series: 660 crane car. Verbatim right under that heading reads: This car was not listed in Lionel sales literature and NOT put into regular production. However two matching "preproduction" example have been reported. Based on their characteristics, these are 1941-1942 production. The number 1660 DOES NOT appear in any reference (Greenberg 2001 2nd ed., Lionel Trains "Standard of the World', David Doyle 'Catalog of Lionel Prewar.)
As far as stamping, it can be hit or miss on any item put out by Lionel, and most likely what you have "should have" been rubber stamped, and most likely missed. There are many variations of any particular item, that can be just a few, to many variations. I can give you one excellent example with variations, the 1688 K4 torpedo, first issued in 1936 until 1941. That one loco, which actually shares the same body with the 1588 wind-up loco, and the 2-6-2 1668 loco. The 1688 has eighteen possible variations. The 1588 has two, and the 1668 has six, all sharing the same basic body casting.
thank ya kindly
Does it have operating (remote control) couplers?
I cannot tell from the pictures. How about the other items in the set?
The set consisted of 258 tin plate, 1689t, 2 1677 gondola's, 1660 crane (2660),1682 brown caboose, 1024 switches, w transformer. couplers have a tab hanging down to uncouple. Definitely not remote
Definitely not remote.
Did you pay crazy money to get the crane in the 1660 box? ...... I am guessing that you probably did not. So there is no reason to believe that the box was faked.
Being that it has manual couplers, and the numbering scheme matches the other cars in the set, IMHO you probably have a 1660 crane. I guess I'd try to verify the contents of the set.
The books don't have absolutely everything, and the books are not error free.
IMHO, its not a 2660 because a 2660 should have remote control couplers.
The set was given to him as a kid, he is 77. There were some other items that came with that he received as a kid.
Attachments
Images (3)
And it came from a private party, not from the train community. And the owner had it for a very extended time period. IMHO, that's another point for it being genuine.
Private party, original owner
CW,
Knowing just a little about all the different Tin Plate O Gauge Crane Cars, because I grew up as a child playing with most all of them, I will tell you that his particular Lionel Tin Plate Crane Car is a 2660 and that it does have the Black auto couplers on it, evident in his posted pictures. Further the 1660 Crane Car was never produced, his fathers old Lionel box was definitely mislabeled, when it was originally purchased by his father. As usual TeleDoc is correct the pre production 650/660 Crane Car, is in the Greenburg Book, however the Greenburg Book is missing a few things, especially when it come to Lionel Pre-Production Tin Plate. The pre-production 650/660 Crane Car has latch type couplers not Black auto couplers, the over all Crane Car does look exactly like the 2660 however the 650 had a Brass ident number plate on there rear of the Crane Cab and there was no numbering on the 660 what so ever. There are very few of the pre-production pieces.
PCRR/Dave
it has manual couplers
TNT,
It may very well have the 1st generation Black Cover Manual Couplers, try and see what happens when you run the Crane Car thru the original type Lionel uncoupler track, most of these will uncouple also.
PCRR/Dave
I'm not understanding what that means or if it has any reference to 660, 1660, 2660.
Trestles N Trains, Is there a chance of getting a photo of the bottom of the crane car, to look at the trucks. Another question is about the box for the crane car, do the two end flaps both say the same thing, or is the "1660" only on the one end flap. Looking at what you posted with the crane box, the way that the 2660 is crossed out, is NOT consistent with the way that Lionel would have done it at the factory, to re-use the box with an "overstamped number".
My previous post about the development of the 650 series, was only the top written paragraph, but there was more to it. It was a grid, with years running across the top from 1935 up to 1942, and the purported "Pre-Production" was consistent with characteristics dating to the 1941/1942 production, IF it was ever really made. Down the left side of the grid, was other pertinent info which is as follows: All info was listed in the 1941-1942 columns.
Cab from 165 crane--cream
Frame--650D
Truck--4h style
Wheels--Black
Truck fastener--horseshoe
Coupler-- Type 3 Latch coupler
Journals--Black
Bakelite boom--Dark Green
Value:Good--NRS (No Reported Sales)
Value:Excellent--NRS (No Reported Sales)
Collection (referring to whose collection the supposed car is in, listed, James Flynn, as reported at the bottom of grid, in Greenberg book) James Flynn is or was at time of printing of the book "President of New Marx Trains", whose Knowledge of Model Trains, IMHO cannot be disputed. James Flynn tried to revive Marx trains, and it only lasted a few years, and he stopped in 2004. From that point on, it became Marx Ameritrain.
Would it be very hard to find a replacement, or reproduction boom for that crane ? Thank you, Jim Cotter.
Jimcotter, If you are looking for a green one, I found three sellers: Dew Associates (Justtrains), the train doctor (Brasseurs), & Chucks Trains. You do the search!!!!
TeleDoc posted:
Trestles N Trains, Is there a chance of getting a photo of the bottom of the crane car, to look at the trucks. Another question is about the box for the crane car, do the two end flaps both say the same thing, or is the "1660" only on the one end flap. Looking at what you posted with the crane box, the way that the 2660 is crossed out, is NOT consistent with the way that Lionel would have done it at the factory, to re-use the box with an "overstamped number".
My previous post about the development of the 650 series, was only the top written paragraph, but there was more to it. It was a grid, with years running across the top from 1935 up to 1942, and the purported "Pre-Production" was consistent with characteristics dating to the 1941/1942 production, IF it was ever really made. Down the left side of the grid, was other pertinent info which is as follows: All info was listed in the 1941-1942 columns.
Cab from 165 crane--cream
Frame--650D
Truck--4h style
Wheels--Black
Truck fastener--horseshoe
Coupler-- Type 3 Latch coupler
Journals--Black
Bakelite boom--Dark Green
Value:Good--NRS (No Reported Sales)
Value:Excellent--NRS (No Reported Sales)
Collection (referring to whose collection the supposed car is in, listed, James Flynn, as reported at the bottom of grid, in Greenberg book) James Flynn is or was at time of printing of the book "President of Marx Trains", whose Knowledge of Model Trains, IMHO cannot be disputed.
4 PICS
Attachments
Images (5)
Now I suppose you 2660 guys are going to claim that someone removed the mechanism from both trucks.
As I posted earlier, the price guides still don't have everything, and contain errors.
Knowing just a little about all the different Tin Plate O Gauge Crane Cars, because I grew up as a child playing with most all of them, I will tell you that his particular Lionel Tin Plate Crane Car is a 2660 and that it does have the Black auto couplers on it, evident in his posted pictures. Further the 1660 Crane Car was never produced, his fathers old Lionel box was definitely mislabeled, when it was originally purchased by his father.
How do you know you played with "most all of them"?
What's your information source?
The original poster wrote that he purchased the set, he didn't get it from his father.
Looking at what you posted with the crane box, the way that the 2660 is crossed out, is NOT consistent with the way that Lionel would have done it at the factory, to re-use the box with an "overstamped number".
Lionel's use of overstamped boxes from time to time is well known / documented. I couldn't say when it was first done.
Bruce Greenberg is working on a new "O" gauge book.
If I owned the crane, I think I might ask Mr. Greenberg to take a look at it. (including the box, and the set)
Whether he thought the item was a genuine 1660 crane or something else, I'd be interested to know why.
I used a TCA book, I think from the 70's, to identify my Lionel prewar. Don't think I ever heard of a 1660 or 660 crane. Looks like I need to start taking notes soon lol.
I used a TCA book, I think from the 70's, to identify my Lionel prewar. Don't think I ever heard of a 1660 or 660 crane. Looks like I need to start taking notes soon lol.
The second edition of the TCA's book, "Lionel Trains, The Standard of the World" was published in 1989. It contains additional material over what was included in the original edition.
To be clear, I don't know as fact that this 1660 is a Lionel factory piece. I just think that it is highly likely to be.
I am finding this thread to be very interesting, but I have some thoughts to throw out there. The Crane car itself is the 2660 style, and can't be confused with the #810 or #2810. As far as an identifying number stamp not found on your example is not completely out of the norm. There are versions that have a plate, which would have had slits in the back to facilitate the tabs to be inserted. A missing number is not uncommon, and that is where "VARIATIONS" come into play. Some would even consider it to be a Factory Error, because of the missing number stamp. Bottom line is that it isn't a really big deal.
Now to the box itself, that has the original number crossed off and a new 1660 number added. Other examples of "Overstamped" boxes, in my observation, have shown a more uniform way of deleting the original number, and typically the deletion is very uniform and (for sake of a better term) crisp edges, and squared off. The new number doesn't appear to be consistent with what Lionel would have done, if it were done at the factory. You just have to look at the number "1660" and the zero "0" is larger than the rest of the number, and is evident on both ends of the box. That alone, IMO, does not look like what a factory re-stamp should look like.
The only ODD crane number to come up, is the number 660, as referenced in the previous posts, and taken from Greenberg Guide to Lionel Trains, 1901-1942, Vol. II: 0 & 00 gauges. I posted what was written on page 142, the best I could show it. (I own two copies of this catalog, along with the TCA Standard of the World, and Doyle's Cat. of Prewar). Doing a Bing and Google search does not show any reference to the number 1660 ever being made, or the number ever being used. The Books never show the 1660 number ever being used, and it was never part of Lionel's numbering sequence.
****Now I will throw out my theory of this 1660 quirk, when you know the components of the set, with only regard to the rolling stock, (peripherals excluded). The engine is the "Late version" 258, which wasn't produced until 1941, which dates the set to 1941. The set had two gondolas with #1677 (should be Dark Red, if 1940-41 issued), and the 1682 caboose, (should be either Medium Red or Tuscan, if 1940-41 issued). The 2660 car didn't have a number stamped on the back of the cab, to actually identify as the 2660, but if you take the rest of the rolling stock, which were all 1600 series numbers, the retailer/seller of the original set, probably "ASSUMED" back in 1941, that the Crane car was a number 1660, and crossed off the 2660 on the box, and used a stamp at hand that gave him the 166 number in one size font, and another stamp for the last zero, in a different size font.****
Just consider the Box for the crane car as a "Conversation Piece", and nothing more than that.
TeleDoc posted:I am finding this thread to be very interesting, but I have some thoughts to throw out there. The Crane car itself is the 2660 style, and can't be confused with the #810 or #2810. As far as an identifying number stamp not found on your example is not completely out of the norm. There are versions that have a plate, which would have had slits in the back to facilitate the tabs to be inserted. A missing number is not uncommon, and that is where "VARIATIONS" come into play. Some would even consider it to be a Factory Error, because of the missing number stamp. Bottom line is that it isn't a really big deal.
Now to the box itself, that has the original number crossed off and a new 1660 number added. Other examples of "Overstamped" boxes, in my observation, have shown a more uniform way of deleting the original number, and typically the deletion is very uniform and (for sake of a better term) crisp edges, and squared off. The new number doesn't appear to be consistent with what Lionel would have done, if it were done at the factory. You just have to look at the number "1660" and the zero "0" is larger than the rest of the number, and is evident on both ends of the box. That alone, IMO, does not look like what a factory re-stamp should look like.
The only ODD crane number to come up, is the number 660, as referenced in the previous posts, and taken from Greenberg Guide to Lionel Trains, 1901-1942, Vol. II: 0 & 00 gauges. I posted what was written on page 142, the best I could show it. (I own two copies of this catalog, along with the TCA Standard of the World, and Doyle's Cat. of Prewar). Doing a Bing and Google search does not show any reference to the number 1660 ever being made, or the number ever being used. The Books never show the 1660 number ever being used, and it was never part of Lionel's numbering sequence.
****Now I will throw out my theory of this 1660 quirk, when you know the components of the set, with only regard to the rolling stock, (peripherals excluded). The engine is the "Late version" 258, which wasn't produced until 1941, which dates the set to 1941. The set had two gondolas with #1677 (should be Dark Red, if 1940-41 issued), and the 1682 caboose, (should be either Medium Red or Tuscan, if 1940-41 issued). The 2660 car didn't have a number stamped on the back of the cab, to actually identify as the 2660, but if you take the rest of the rolling stock, which were all 1600 series numbers, the retailer/seller of the original set, probably "ASSUMED" back in 1941, that the Crane car was a number 1660, and crossed off the 2660 on the box, and used a stamp at hand that gave him the 166 number in one size font, and another stamp for the last zero, in a different size font.****
Just consider the Box for the crane car as a "Conversation Piece", and nothing more than that.
Thanks for the insight. I have been playing with Lionel trains since 1953. Over the years, I come across items that become a real topic of conversation. When an item has the unique traits like this one, it is always good to throw it out for consumption and see what comes back.
The crane has no slots and the caboose is Tuscan as indicated. As for the box, it was in the set, so that is where it will stay. The original owner said that was how he received it back in the 40's as he remembers. Here is a pic of the set, some of the other trains that occupy my walls.
Attachments
Images (14)
beautiful collection!
Steamer posted:beautiful collection!
thank you
TNT, Quite an impressive collection, plus what I see of the layout. I was introduced to Lionel trains in the early '50s, much like you, but by the 1960's it was given to a younger cousin. He has since returned everything plus more recently, and I am just in a stage of fixing & restoring "derelict Prewar" items. I don't have a layout, or really room for one, so I dabble with restoring Prewar, back to running condition. I also like to do researching of unique things that pop up, and see if I can solve some of the questions that are posed.
What are your thoughts about my theory of the box number? I think it is the only plausible answer.
What are your thoughts about my theory of the box number?
I'm not TNT, but I'll comment anyway.
Sure your theory (Teledoc) is possible. But why would the dealer have bothered?
Also, I notice that the box for the 258 has something crossed out in a fashion somewhat similar to what was done on the 2660 box.
After reading the above information regarding the original post, I get the impression these items could have been a close-out of remaining inventory in about 1942, when Lionel had to cease train production and sales because of wartime priorities. In those circumstances it seems likely that there could have been some irregularities in packaging etc.
Ace brings up a good point with the time period of this set, as we were approaching our entry into WW II. The additional photo of the complete set, and the boxes, I see a very different stamping of the 258 box (Looks like a factory re-stamp, to use a convenient box), as compared to what appears as a NON-factory re-stamp. The loco box looks more consistent with what one would expect from the factory, but I can't tell what the original number on the box was. Only Trestles N Trains can answer that one.
We can only speculate what the original seller did, to make the sale. I don't know exactly what came in the #8040 set from then, and the price of Greenberg's book on Prewar sets, is way out of my range (extremely expensive to buy), but I have been fortunate to get my other books at decent prices, that I felt comfortable paying, that I refer to, when researching things of this nature. ** I stick by my theory that the other rolling stock had 1600 series numbers, and that the original seller decided to change the number on that box with his own stamps to make it compatible with the rest of the consist, and made the number 1660, not knowing (at least in 1941), that Lionel NEVER issued anything with the number 1660, and it never came up in their numerical sequence. Lionel's numbers went from the 1651E, right to the 1661E (which was a holdover from Ives, after Lionel & AF bought them out)** The crane car is 100% 2660, with it just missing the number stamp on the cab.
TELEDOC,
I agree and it looks like a real nice Crane Car in decent shape for running!
PCRR/Dave
The 810 & 2660 Crane Cars on the 263E Work Train consist.
Attachments
Images (1)
TeleDoc posted:TNT, Quite an impressive collection, plus what I see of the layout. I was introduced to Lionel trains in the early '50s, much like you, but by the 1960's it was given to a younger cousin. He has since returned everything plus more recently, and I am just in a stage of fixing & restoring "derelict Prewar" items. I don't have a layout, or really room for one, so I dabble with restoring Prewar, back to running condition. I also like to do researching of unique things that pop up, and see if I can solve some of the questions that are posed.
What are your thoughts about my theory of the box number? I think it is the only plausible answer.
I have two thoughts. We still have to deal with the actual set. If it was a
TeleDoc posted:TNT, Quite an impressive collection, plus what I see of the layout. I was introduced to Lionel trains in the early '50s, much like you, but by the 1960's it was given to a younger cousin. He has since returned everything plus more recently, and I am just in a stage of fixing & restoring "derelict Prewar" items. I don't have a layout, or really room for one, so I dabble with restoring Prewar, back to running condition. I also like to do researching of unique things that pop up, and see if I can solve some of the questions that are posed.
What are your thoughts about my theory of the box number? I think it is the only plausible answer.
The set number stays constant if all the items are unique to the set. If it was changed at the factory, it could have been changed on the assembly line and upgraded later to the 2660. If there is another 8040 set around, a lot of answers could be clarified. If it was changed at the dealer, then the dealer would have to have a reference to go by to change it before it was sold. The end user would have no reason to change it unless he/she had a some kind of reference point also. ????
C W Burfle posted:What are your thoughts about my theory of the box number?
I'm not TNT, but I'll comment anyway.
Sure your theory (Teledoc) is possible. But why would the dealer have bothered?
Also, I notice that the box for the 258 has something crossed out in a fashion somewhat similar to what was done on the 2660 box.
O gauge was scratched off the 258 box. ????
Ace posted:After reading the above information regarding the original post, I get the impression these items could have been a close-out of remaining inventory in about 1942, when Lionel had to cease train production and sales because of wartime priorities. In those circumstances it seems likely that there could have been some irregularities in packaging etc.
very good point. could use another 8040 set to clarify
The crane car is 100% 2660, with it just missing the number stamp on the cab
Except that:
1 - the trucks are attached with eyelets. The 2660's I've seen have trucks attached with studs and locking washers.
2 - no uncoupling mechanism. I will admit that the mechanisms could have been removed.
TeleDoc posted:Jimcotter, If you are looking for a green one, I found three sellers: Dew Associates (Justtrains), the train doctor (Brasseurs), & Chucks Trains. You do the search!!!!
Thank you very much ! Jim.
Trestles N Trains & CW, First I will agree with CW that the trucks are not attached in the normal fashion, plus the lack of the uncoupling mechanism isn't there. So those two and the missing '2660' stamping are different from the normal issue. I will reiterate that the number '1660' was never ever used by Lionel, period. I had someone who has the Greenberg Prewar Sets book check for the Set 8040, and that is an UNCATALOGED Set!!! The set would be 75 years old, and none of us can say where the Set was purchased originally. Is there a likelihood that the Dealer/Seller put this set together, changed the number on the Crane box to conform to the numbering of the rest of the components, and modified the couplers to make the sale...YES, but it can't be verified as truth.
Have fun with it, and tell whatever story you want about it.
Is there a likelihood that the Dealer/Seller put this set together, changed the number on the Crane box to conform to the numbering of the rest of the components, and modified the couplers to make the sale...YES, but it can't be verified as truth.
And even go as far as changing out the trucks from stud mounted to eyelet mounted? ..... not very likely.
