Just a rant of sorts.  I can't believe Lionel made a mistake by calling this the North Carolina and St. Louis on the box and thereby perpetuating the error on places like ebay.  That shows why many manufacturers such as Marx and Lionel ignored many of the famous southern railroads in the postwar and modern era.  I guess that is because those companies were primarily Northern based.  Try modeling a L&N line or Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis line and you will figure it out real fast.  Ironically, K-Line had an observation car in their Golden State set that was shaped like the City of Memphis Observation car.  Rant over.

Original Post

I agree. At least Lionel doesn't believe that L&N is Louisville and Norfolk. I have been fortunate that Lionel made a L&N USRA 0-8-0 and Heavy Mikado.

As far as NC&StL, my two first generation diesels (F3's and GP7) I had to have custom painted NC&StL. Atlas made a covered hopper and box car in NC&StL that I have. I got Malcolm to make a NC&StL #41 caboose.

I have never expected that Lionel would offer many of the smaller southern roads, so I was not disappointed. I am hoping Atlas follows through with the NC&StL VO1000 they said they would make. I wait...

DSCN0163

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I have 2 or 3 of the NC&St.L. cars Lionel put out.  Fortunately it just says North Carolina on the box, lol.  NC&St.L. wasn't a small railroad by any means.  Its ironic that in all of the Lionel General versions they put out, they never did one up of the real NC&St.L. General.  The closest they came was Confederate and Union sets they released.  L&N was a bigger line and Lionel has trickle a few locomotives out for them over the years as well as a few for Atlantic Coast Line and SCL.  They have done better with the NW and Southern over the years.  Customization has been the best way to go on NC&St.L. 

 

MTH does something cool from time to time like the Aerotrain set they released. 

The South has been largely invisible to the US for most of US history. There's your basic issue. I've often kidded my ex-Michigan snowbird neighbors (which I think is most of them) about the maps that thy must have seen in school that designated the Southeast simply with serpents and phrases like "Here There Be Dragons".

But, to narrow it down - model RR'ing and rail fanning was never as popular in the South (where I was born, grew up and live, in/around Mobile) as it was north of the border. That the big-time RR'ing in the South went often un-photographed I blame on, one - we Southerners, who could have  noticed and taken more photos, and two, the "famous" Northern rail photographers who could have simply bought some tickets to Mobile, Atlanta, N.O. and the like instead of taking yet another trip to shoot the Union Pacific. Again. (For example, how many know that the Southern Rwy had Duplex tractor steamers - like an Erie Triplex, but with 2 sets of drivers, rather than 3? Didn't think so. Or that the GM&N, later GM&O, streamlined, lightweight ACF Rebel came out right after the Burlington Zephyr? Uh-huh. I could go on.)

So Lionel and the rest didn't see us. We bought fewer trains and our profile was lower. I had a layout, but it was the only one in my solid working-class neighborhood, and none of my playmates really cared about it much at all. Cars, guns, boats, now...yeah.

But, as a Southern model RR'er, I feel that today is the Golden Age of SE road names and equipment. Still - under-represented compared to our population and other areas (do an actual model of the L&N Berkshire, for Pete's sake!). 

Lots of SE equipment could be modeled and sold. Notably, an NC&StL Dixie 4-8-4 (shown double-headed in North Alabama). Fast, modern, compact and, to me, gorgeous (a skyline casing would have made it perfect). And, Lionel, your RDG T-1 4-8-4 running gear matches this loco very closely...just sayin'.

 

DixiesJ3

 - BTW, the NdeM had essential copies built, without the stream-styling, which they called "Niagras" (that spelling is correct for the NdeM locos).

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D500,  One of my current projects is to put together a semblance of the City of Memphis.  I noticed that the K-Line observation car for the Golden State set has the same general shape as the City of Memphis.  I am going to use a couple of the current generic Lionel lines cars to help build the consist.  I ended up with an extra "Divan" observation car so its going to end up with a NC&StL blue roof.  This project will probably endup looking more accurate than K-Line's rendition of the Golden State.  The biggest challenge for me is going to be working in a Vandy tender.  I have a MLB Berkshire that I am going to convert to a NC&St.L. as well but not for The Memphis.

The odd thing about that Golden State set is that it has a dome car and the observation is square backed.  Supposedly there were no dome cares in the Golden State.  The observation cars I have seen in pictures and museums have the tapered observation.  That said, I am doing to run it. 

I grew up on the L&N/NC&St.L. line near South Pittsburg, TN.  The area has some legendary bridges and tunnels not to mention grades.

 

I am not sure why Lionel did the GP38 with the L&N road name but I have a couple of them.  There is  a new Lionchief Plus that is supposed to be out but it seems to be a ghost engine.

I just had to add a pic of my newest NC&StL diesel. All locomotives in pic are Lionel Legacy. The F3 (was NP) and the GP9 (was yellow nose L&N) were painted by Bernie Winkler. He also painted the NC&StL in my first post (was Erie). The Alco S-2 (was Southern) was painted by Malcolm.DSCN0192

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I've had the Lionel NC& StL boxcar that came in the "North Carolina" box for about five years.  I still have to laugh every time I see this box at a train show or TCA meet.  I remember when I bought this car at a TCA meet and another Terminus Chapter buddy was yanking my chain about this being a rare variation.  I remind him of that every time I see another one.

Since relocating to Atlanta 14 years ago I've periodically focused on collecting  Atlanta area railroads like Southern, L&N, ACL and SAL.  In addition to engines and rolling stock for the NC&StL, I'd also like to see something for the A&WP and another release of CofG items.

Curt

RLH posted:

I like that F3!

Thanks. The NC&StL F3 #806 is now the ”center piece” locomotive of my layout. It was nicely done by Bernie Winkler who had to make the decals. Seems there are few, if any, O scale NC&StL decals to be found. If you find yourself needing NC&St O scale decals, Bernie would probably be a good contact.

BTW, the matching non-powered A is also NC&StL.

D500, I meant to ask you if you knew the line those double heading 4-8-4's were on.  I am guessing the Chattanooga to Nashville run and they are doing that to get over the hump of the southern Cumberlands just before the legendary Cowan Tunnel.  There were some cool historic bridges and depots on that run like the cantilever bridge over the TN River at Bridgeport, AL and the Bridgeport Depot.  To the east there is the bridge over Falling Water Creek near Whiteside, TN. 

juniata guy posted:

I've had the Lionel NC& StL boxcar that came in the "North Carolina" box for about five years.  I still have to laugh every time I see this box at a train show or TCA meet.  I remember when I bought this car at a TCA meet and another Terminus Chapter buddy was yanking my chain about this being a rare variation.  I remind him of that every time I see another one.

Since relocating to Atlanta 14 years ago I've periodically focused on collecting  Atlanta area railroads like Southern, L&N, ACL and SAL.  In addition to engines and rolling stock for the NC&StL, I'd also like to see something for the A&WP and another release of CofG items.

Curt

What is crazy is when you see those cars for sale on ebay and places they are advertised as North Carolina and St. Louis.  I wondered why some guy was trying to get $70 plus shipping for one and then I realized many didn't turn up on search unless I searched for North Carolina. 

A couple of years ago Lionel had that 0-8-0 set called the Chattanooga Express but didn't really look like NC & St.L. nor L&N.  Its red and white color schemes were similar to the old Tennessee Central Railroad except the red had a touch of magenta in it. 

Haven't checked this thread in a while; glad to see some interest in the NC&StL. I'm at the other, salt-water end of Alabama, and I know of the NC&StL mostly as a part of the L&N (which appropriated their slogan "The Dixie Line" to join the L&N's "The Old Reliable").

Beautiful locos, the Dixies. With a skyline casing they would be in the same class, esthetically, as the 20th Century and ESE J3 Hudsons, as well as the N&W J 4-8-4's. Bit of NH 4-6-4's there, too.

==========

RLH:

"D500, I meant to ask you if you knew the line those double heading 4-8-4's were on.  I am guessing the Chattanooga to Nashville run and they are doing that to get over the hump of the southern Cumberlands just before the legendary Cowan Tunnel.  There were some cool historic bridges and depots on that run like the cantilever bridge over the TN River at Bridgeport, AL and the Bridgeport Depot.  To the east there is the bridge over Falling Water Creek near Whiteside, TN." 

Per the article in December, 1963 Trains magazine, the photo above of the Dixies (not called "Northerns", seriously) was taken 3/30/46, in Bass, AL, at 70 mph pulling train 94 (the northbound Dixie Flyer) "making time through the Crow Creek Valley, 10 miles out of Sherwood TN, foot of the helper grade up to Cumberland Tunnel".

 
RLH posted:

Just a rant of sorts.  I can't believe Lionel made a mistake by calling this the North Carolina and St. Louis on the box and thereby perpetuating the error on places like ebay.  That shows why many manufacturers such as Marx and Lionel ignored many of the famous southern railroads in the postwar and modern era.  I guess that is because those companies were primarily Northern based.  Try modeling a L&N line or Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis line and you will figure it out real fast.  Ironically, K-Line had an observation car in their Golden State set that was shaped like the City of Memphis Observation car.  Rant over.

Tell you what - try liking the Nickel Plate Road (NKP). I've seen it spelled Nickle, Nikle, Nichol, or abbreviated NP. The NKP reached up well north into Buffalo, NY at its endpoint - it's misspelled or misidentified more than any other railroad I can think of, sort of the Rodney Dangerfield of mangled names. 

As far as regional favoritism - population density was greatest in the northeastern states into at least the 70s, and railroads serving the northeastern region that the Lionel's factory (New Jersey) and Marx's factory (Pennsylvania) were located in or were hours away from are the ones that show up frequently: Pennsylvania, New York Central, Erie, Lehigh Valley, Lehigh New England, Boston and Maine, New Haven, Central of New Jersey, Nickel Plate Road, Wabash, Lackawanna, and later Penn Central all were well represented. New York State, Pennsylvania and New Jersey accounted for almost 30,000,000 people in the 1950 census: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...United_States_Census   That amounted to almost 20% of the population right there, and they were all strong sellers of toy trains as evidenced by the number of authorized dealers appearing in Lionel's service station flyers. The number of dealers based in the south were far fewer in number.

The states in the midwest, northwest, southwest and west didn't snag nearly as much model action compared to the northeastern states when it came to toy trains, either. If you broaden the manufacturer base, AMT/Auburn/KMT/Kusan came up with Texas Special, Southern and B&O F units with matching passenger trains composed of 8 different body styles for the O gauge crowd, as well as a Southern RDC car. You also got B&O (2 different paint schemes), Central of Georgia, Missouri Pacific and Southern boxcars, a L&N gondola, an ACL and MKT stock car, matching cabooses for the B&O and Southern F units, as well as a C&O caboose (which used a C&O design for the model). Not a bad representation of railroads serving the south from AMT/KMT. As the population has spread away from the northeast, the range of roadnames has broadened as well.

MTN posted:
RLH posted:

Just a rant of sorts.  I can't believe Lionel made a mistake by calling this the North Carolina and St. Louis on the box and thereby perpetuating the error on places like ebay.  That shows why many manufacturers such as Marx and Lionel ignored many of the famous southern railroads in the postwar and modern era.  I guess that is because those companies were primarily Northern based.  Try modeling a L&N line or Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis line and you will figure it out real fast.  Ironically, K-Line had an observation car in their Golden State set that was shaped like the City of Memphis Observation car.  Rant over.

Tell you what - try liking the Nickel Plate Road (NKP). I've seen it spelled Nickle, Nikle, Nichol, or abbreviated NP. The NKP reached up well north into Buffalo, NY at its endpoint - it's misspelled or misidentified more than any other railroad I can think of, sort of the Rodney Dangerfield of mangled names. 

As far as regional favoritism - population density was greatest in the northeastern states into at least the 70s, and railroads serving the northeastern region that the Lionel's factory (New Jersey) and Marx's factory (Pennsylvania) were located in or were hours away from are the ones that show up frequently: Pennsylvania, New York Central, Erie, Lehigh Valley, Lehigh New England, Boston and Maine, New Haven, Central of New Jersey, Nickel Plate Road, Wabash, Lackawanna, and later Penn Central all were well represented. New York State, Pennsylvania and New Jersey accounted for almost 30,000,000 people in the 1950 census: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...United_States_Census   That amounted to almost 20% of the population right there, and they were all strong sellers of toy trains as evidenced by the number of authorized dealers appearing in Lionel's service station flyers. The number of dealers based in the south were far fewer in number.

The states in the midwest, northwest, southwest and west didn't snag nearly as much model action compared to the northeastern states when it came to toy trains, either. If you broaden the manufacturer base, AMT/Auburn/KMT/Kusan came up with Texas Special, Southern and B&O F units with matching passenger trains composed of 8 different body styles for the O gauge crowd, as well as a Southern RDC car. You also got B&O (2 different paint schemes), Central of Georgia, Missouri Pacific and Southern boxcars, a L&N gondola, an ACL and MKT stock car, matching cabooses for the B&O and Southern F units, as well as a C&O caboose (which used a C&O design for the model). Not a bad representation of railroads serving the south from AMT/KMT. As the population has spread away from the northeast, the range of roadnames has broadened as well.

MTN, that is it in a large part and I alluded to Lionel and Marx being Northeastern companies in my 1st post.  The L&N railroad operated over 6000 miles of road in 1971 in 13 states with over 10000 miles of track.  They also had deals with other roads for some of its named passenger trains even though they had 2 the rain mostly on their own lines.  Oddly, about the only one still in existence is the Florida East Coast line founded by Flagler.  The L&N officially merged with NC&St.L. in 1957 but the NC&St.L still ran its colors on some trains into 1971.  Its ironic that both were financially successful surviving the Civil War and the great depression to end up running under the same flag as the C&0, B&O, Western Maryland, Monon, Seaboard Airline and ACL.

D500 posted:

Haven't checked this thread in a while; glad to see some interest in the NC&StL. I'm at the other, salt-water end of Alabama, and I know of the NC&StL mostly as a part of the L&N (which appropriated their slogan "The Dixie Line" to join the L&N's "The Old Reliable").

Beautiful locos, the Dixies. With a skyline casing they would be in the same class, esthetically, as the 20th Century and ESE J3 Hudsons, as well as the N&W J 4-8-4's. Bit of NH 4-6-4's there, too.

==========

RLH:

"D500, I meant to ask you if you knew the line those double heading 4-8-4's were on.  I am guessing the Chattanooga to Nashville run and they are doing that to get over the hump of the southern Cumberlands just before the legendary Cowan Tunnel.  There were some cool historic bridges and depots on that run like the cantilever bridge over the TN River at Bridgeport, AL and the Bridgeport Depot.  To the east there is the bridge over Falling Water Creek near Whiteside, TN." 

Per the article in December, 1963 Trains magazine, the photo above of the Dixies (not called "Northerns", seriously) was taken 3/30/46, in Bass, AL, at 70 mph pulling train 94 (the northbound Dixie Flyer) "making time through the Crow Creek Valley, 10 miles out of Sherwood TN, foot of the helper grade up to Cumberland Tunnel".

 

Bass is about 15 to 20 miles west of Bridgeport, AL that I referred to.  They are indeed heading to the tunnel at Cowan.  North bound is relative from Sherwood because Nashville is Northwest and Chattanooga is Northeast from there LOL.  I grew up in that area went to high school 25 miles from there but that article was 1 year before I was born.  I used to have a good friend that passed away in the late 80s.  He was a retired L&N engineer and used run those Dixies or gliders as he called them.  Tennessee has a lot of railroad history going back to 1850.  In fact, that Cowan tunnel was built in the 1850s and is still in service for the CSX.  It was an engineering feat for a long time.  There was also a spur that went up the mountain to Sewanee, Monteagle and eventually Coalmont and Altamont that double backed over the mainline and the north end of the tunnel.  It too was an engineering feat.  It went.  The Moutain Goat line was complete to Sewanee in 1853 from Cowan and it climbed 100 feet per mile at an almost continuous 2% grade.  The track of the Mountain Goat spur was pulled out in the late 1980s. The same fate faced the legendary spur up The Sequatchie Valley between Jasper and Pikeville.  Both roads were good roads. 

As far a modeling O in scale for NC&StL is concerned, it seems that Atlas has offered the most product. They say that an Atlas VO 1000 is scheduled in two road numbers for NC&STL. Does anyone know if plans have changed?

Also, considering, IMO, NC&STL had one of the nicest looking EMD F Units paint schemes ever done, it does seem like F Units in NC&STL would have already been done in O.

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