Lionel H-8 Legacy Allegheny

Elliot, I do not see the superior advantage of this version over the Railsounds 5 JLC version.  I guess Legacy control and Whistle steam effect but when the JLC version can be had new in the box off the forum for $850, it looks like one could get the older version and a new Vision line GG1 for the same money.

 Glad to see you are still involved in the hobby.

 Happy railroading,

Don

We feel your pain, Eliot.  Lots of folks probably are gonna draw the same conclusion.  Lots of tremendous products... no argument there.  But the hit on the wallet will be just too impractical.

David

So far as I know, the (real) Allegheny has twin stacks. 

I agree on this one.  I splurged for the Centipede and Big Boys but the $2,200 is pretty high just for the whistle steam and a non- Vision engine.  Almost wished they would have labeled this a Vision engine and added features.  I have the JLC version and love it but unless they can include some additional features like a swinging bell, which would really push me 80% towards purchasing it (since I don't have an Lionel engine right now that has a fully swinging bell.  I am hoping there are some hidden features they haven't mentioned as most of the products in the catalog are somewhat lacking full descriptions like in past catalogs.  

Beautiful Locomotive!!!    Price -    But, I would still like one!

D500, I believe Scrapiron Scher might be referring to the model only having one smoke unit.  By the catalog pictures, it appears to have the correct one piece casting with two outlets...   I might be wrong...

I'll be listening to the Notch 6 podcast on my way home from the office tonight.  Hoping for some insights there. 

I agree that there must be some additional features on this one.

I didn't realize there are two stacks. Embarrassed. I think, for the comparable price, the Big Boy is fully featured. Street price on this will be $1,750 + ?

Scrappy

D500 posted:

So far as I know, the (real) Allegheny has twin stacks. 

Correct, as does the Sunset/3rd Rail and MTH models. Are you suggesting that the Lionel version of this model does not?

DGJONES posted:

Elliot, I do not see the superior advantage of this version over the Railsounds 5 JLC version.  I guess Legacy control and Whistle steam effect but when the JLC version can be had new in the box off the forum for $850, it looks like one could get the older version and a new Vision line GG1 for the same money.

 

$850 is way too much for that old  JLC  when I can buy the new one with the addition of  whistle steam for $1900 street price.   With that same $850 I'd rather buy the new 0-8-0  switcher with no WS.  Aside from the fact its a bit smaller, it would be new...

Nobody wants old...new is everything....

Joe 

The real Allegheny did not have a swinging bell. The bell was fixed in position. Just the clapper moved causing the bell to ring. The UP Big Boys also had fixed bells 

I hope they get the whistle sound right   To my knowledge the C&O Alleghenies had a whistle very similar to a N&W Y6b   

Or do I have that mixed up and I have the B&O EM-1 in mind 

Steve

Steam Guy posted:

The real Allegheny did not have a swinging bell. The bell was fixed in position. Just the clapper moved causing the bell to ring. The UP Big Boys also had fixed bells 

I hope they get the whistle sound right   To my knowledge the C&O Alleghenies had a whistle very similar to a N&W Y6b   

Or do I have that mixed up and I have the B&O EM-1 in mind 

Steve

 

 

 

The prototype, all of them had banshee whistles.   While the MTH Allegheny had more things wrong detail wise then right, the MTH whistle was correct, the JLC wrong.

Joe

JC642 posted:Joe

The prototype, all of them had banshee whistles.   While the MTH Allegheny had more things wrong detail wise then right, the MTH whistle was correct, the JLC wrong.

Technically, the C&O freight steam locomotives used a slightly shorter version of the N&W "Hooter" whistle, which tended to produce a higher pitch, single tone "hooter". Please do NOT confuse/compare the sound of the C&O freight whistles to that of the famous "banshee" as was used by the PRR. 

Are there YouTube videos of these locos where we can hear the different whistles? Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

JC642 posted:

...

$850 is way too much for that old  JLC  when I can buy the new one with the addition of  whistle steam for $1900 street price.   ...

Wow... The only thing "old" about the JLC Allegheny is it was made in 2008.  Side by side next to this new Legacy model, we probably won't even be able to tell them apart.

$850 is an extremely fair price for a MINT or Like-New JLC piece.  Even at $1700 street-price for the Legacy model, it's a steep premium just to get whistle-steam and an IR sensor.  For an extra $100, we can get a Sensorcar now, so that leaves us at $750 for whistle-steam.    No thank you.  And I don't even have a JLC model to sell.  So I have no dog in this hunt.  

David

After what they did to the PRR  J1 sound, I'm not gonna spring for Lionel's  Newfie Bullet / K27 Mike sound !    It's JLC for me.....or no chooch !

So  I am only thinking about a Allegheny at this moment. But I would like to know before I order if the sounds are going to be correct. A Lionel response would be great. Also can anybody tell me if the C&O Caboose in the catalog is correct for this engine?

Thanks

Pats Trains listed the street price for the Allegheny at $1,584, which isn't too bad.  The Lionel retail price of $2,200 gave sticker shock.

1584 is cost  .. Suppose to sell it for 1694 .. I don't why he posted cost on the engines. If he's gonna sell it for 1584 I preorder it right now. 

Ansonnn posted:

Pats Trains listed the street price for the Allegheny at $1,584, which isn't too bad.  The Lionel retail price of $2,200 gave sticker shock.

Look closely... That was his COST.  The street-price is $1695.  Still not all that bad considering folks paid close to that for Lionel's first UP Challengers (JLC models w/TMCC) way back when.     So that price-point isn't all that bad at all for a locomotive of this caliber and detail level.  The challenge is gonna be fitting something like that -- along with everything else one may want from this catalog and other importers too -- into the budget!    I'd bet the folks who want this gem, may also have some pretty expensive stuff already set to arrive in 2016... and may also have their eye on a few other jewels in the 2016 catalogs as well.  Decisions... decisions. 

jojofry posted:

1584 is cost  .. Suppose to sell it for 1694 .. I don't why he posted cost on the engines. If he's gonna sell it for 1584 I preorder it right now. 

We'll probably need to wait for Pat to have another Christmas-at-Cost sale like he did last Christmas for us OGR forum folks.  We got to choose ONE item at cost.  Not a bad deal.    But I doubt he's gonna take pre-orders at that price. 

Good eye.  i didn't look at the column labels just a quick glance.  Looks like Pat's Trains forgot to delete the 'costs" column.  Interesting to see not much margin on many high price engines.  No wonder hobby shops are going out of business.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

JC642 posted:

...

$850 is way too much for that old  JLC  when I can buy the new one with the addition of  whistle steam for $1900 street price.   ...

Wow... The only thing "old" about the JLC Allegheny is it was made in 2008.  Side by side next to this new Legacy model, we probably won't even be able to tell them apart.

$850 is an extremely fair price for a MINT or Like-New JLC piece.  Even at $1700 street-price for the Legacy model, it's a steep premium just to get whistle-steam and an IR sensor.  For an extra $100, we can get a Sensorcar now, so that leaves us at $750 for whistle-steam.    No thank you.  And I don't even have a JLC model to sell.  So I have no dog in this hunt.  

David

To be honest 700 dollars will get you a bit more:  

1) Way better sound

2) 200 speed steps

3) Legacy electronics 

4) Whistle steam

5) Quillable whistle

6) Additional start up and auto sounds functions , speed step function with sounds

7) LCS sensor

8) coal and water fill sound functions

9) Improve 3 levels of smoke

10) 2 year warranty with also a locomotive that Lionel will service for another 5 years. ( the other your on your own)

11) Updated LED lights and with rule 17 options.

12) Access switches on top of the locomotive

These are just a few. 

Due to the anticipation of the re release of this locomotive, I am surprised they did not set the price a little higher and make it a Vision Line release.

I am going to have to sell a few pieces on the farm but I am in. 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

jojofry posted:

1584 is cost  .. Suppose to sell it for 1694 .. I don't why he posted cost on the engines. If he's gonna sell it for 1584 I preorder it right now. 

We'll probably need to wait for Pat to have another Christmas-at-Cost sale like he did last Christmas for us OGR forum folks.  We got to choose ONE item at cost.  Not a bad deal.    But I doubt he's gonna take pre-orders at that price. 

I know that's why I said that.. There's  a certain forum sponcer I can buy the Empire State express set for 1527 shipped .I  am starting to think he's not making jack on the deal..  

So I'm going to start off this rant by saying I'm in on the Allegheny, but I'm not happy about it. Not one bit. If you ask me this offering is a big $%&# you love letter from Lionel to its customers. Yes, this is a much anticipated locomotive that the general masses of big steam locomotives wanted. But Lionel missed the mark by not doing this as a Vision Line. Lionel makes a technological wonder like the Big Boy ($2000) and expects us to swallow this vanilla version of the Allegheny ($1750) for a few hundred dollars less than a Big Boy.

I really don't understand Lionel's purpose for the Vision Line line. The mission statement states "Lionel fans can look to our VISION Line to experience the “gold standard” in model train engineering, manufacturing, and most of all… VISION. In each successive year we will unveil a selection of products that will elevate our line to levels never before reached in our industry." I'm pretty sure this is bogus. They introduce use to all the great features on the big boy and then drop those features in all other locomotives. The Allegheny is just the most recent example. So why do it. If VisionLine is to develop new features that elevate the product line, where are they? The signature line surely is not benefiting. This new Allegheny, which is almost purposely built for excess, seems as vanilla as the old JLC with whistle steam. The only real difference is around $1000 and a steaming whistle. So where are these Vision Line features going? People argue that Vision Line can only introduce new features. I don't buy that, nothing in the mission statement about that. Lionel has demonstrated quite clearly those Vision Line features don't go in signature line. So where? Personally I don't care what they call it but I want a regular line of steam engines that have already released Vision Line features. Call it the polished turd line for all I care.

So then back to this Allegheny... Lionel gives us this featureless wonder then slap us with a huge price increase. I mean really the T-1 gets all brand new tooling and a kinematic drawbar. If I'm counting right that is one more feature then the Allegheny has. I thought the Y6B was just barely worth it. How is Lionel going to justify this price tag. On the Y6b the made up for the price with that great whistle and the simple to compound engine sounds. They better have something up their sleeve on this one. Why oh why did they not do this as a polished turd line! I guess Lionel is not in the business of putting smiles on peoples faces.

Blue Streak posted:

So  I am only thinking about a Allegheny at this moment. But I would like to know before I order if the sounds are going to be correct. A Lionel response would be great. Also can anybody tell me if the C&O Caboose in the catalog is correct for this engine?

Thanks

I have not seen the catalog yet, but I'm willing to bet that Lionel did NOT pay for new tooling in order to produce a CORRECT C&O caboose. The only correct C&O cabooses available in O Scale, at reasonable prices are; first the Sunset/3rd Rail version, and second the old Quality Craft wood kit of the C&O woodside caboose. 

One of my favorite features of my JLC Alleghany would be the tender.  It has the most detailed trucks I have ever seen on a locomotive with each axle having independent suspension that really works as opposed to solid casting.  I wondering if this will be on the new locomotive or be cheapened to a one piece casting?  I also love the scale rods driving the mechanical lubricator and the brass pilot with realistic running board thickness.  

My only beef with this engine is the smoke unit.  It burned out a few years ago.  My dad also purchased one of these when they came out originally and his smoke unit burned out also.  I recognize the whistle may not be correct, but I still enjoy it.

Getting away from the electronics and sounds, I believe my Alleghany to be the most detailed locomotive lionel has produced to date and it is coming up on its 10 year anniversary. 

Very disappointing that this new version of the locomotive and the recently released big boy do not have the new draw bar design my Lionel MR 261 has.  This feature is as important if not more important to me than the whistle smoke.  It is the one glaring thing that makes it obvious its a toy when comparing to a photograph of the real thing (well besides the 3rd rail). 

I also wonder if it will have a true articulated sound set where the drivers come in and out of sync.  I think the recent big boy is one of the few that has this (are there others from lionel?).  I wish my engine had this feature as I really like it in my MTH articulated models.

Regarding cabooses, Lionel came out with nice scale C&O caboose a few years ago.  I always thought it was right.  Maybe some folks can comment on it here.

The one thing I'd like to see more often at this price point is a separate whistle steam smoke fluid reservoir.  I was disappointed that the Y6b didn't have one, especially being as large as it is, and pleasantly surprised that the somewhat smaller ESE Hudson did.  IMHO it makes a BIG difference in the quality of the whistle steam effect.  There are times I can barely see any smoke on the Y6b or my Gold PE Berkshire, but I get consistently get a beautiful plume with the Polar RR K-4 Pacific & ESE Hudson. 

Fridge,

Personally, I'm kind of split on the way Lionel does the whistle steam.

On one hand, the ones with a single reservoir are easier to refill, but yes, the effect isn't quite as strong.

On the other, the ones with dual reservoirs smoke better, but are more of a pain to refill by making sure no bubbles pop up. Not to mention when I had the Southern Crescent, the dome cap would often not stick firmly down, and would leave a gap between cap and boiler.

Thomas:

Agreed.  It's sometimes difficult to get the dome on the K-4 to settle back in after a top-up, and I do get a lot of bubbling from the ESE whistle.  I wonder if investing in one of those needle tip dispensers would fix the issue vs. trying to drip the smoke fluid in. 

I guess for me, if I'm paying that kind of money for whistle steam then I want to see the whistle steam.  It's a feature that's pushed me towards Lionel, at least for steam.  If it's not going to be a potent effect, I might as well go MTH.

Winston posted:

So I'm going to start off this rant by saying I'm in on the Allegheny, but I'm not happy about it. Not one bit. If you ask me this offering is a big $%&# you love letter from Lionel to its customers. Yes, this is a much anticipated locomotive that the general masses of big steam locomotives wanted. But Lionel missed the mark by not doing this as a Vision Line. Lionel makes a technological wonder like the Big Boy ($2000) and expects us to swallow this vanilla version of the Allegheny ($1750) for a few hundred dollars less than a Big Boy.

I really don't understand Lionel's purpose for the Vision Line line. The mission statement states "Lionel fans can look to our VISION Line to experience the “gold standard” in model train engineering, manufacturing, and most of all… VISION. In each successive year we will unveil a selection of products that will elevate our line to levels never before reached in our industry." I'm pretty sure this is bogus. They introduce use to all the great features on the big boy and then drop those features in all other locomotives. The Allegheny is just the most recent example. So why do it. If VisionLine is to develop new features that elevate the product line, where are they? The signature line surely is not benefiting. This new Allegheny, which is almost purposely built for excess, seems as vanilla as the old JLC with whistle steam. The only real difference is around $1000 and a steaming whistle. So where are these Vision Line features going? People argue that Vision Line can only introduce new features. I don't buy that, nothing in the mission statement about that. Lionel has demonstrated quite clearly those Vision Line features don't go in signature line. So where? Personally I don't care what they call it but I want a regular line of steam engines that have already released Vision Line features. Call it the polished turd line for all I care.

So then back to this Allegheny... Lionel gives us this featureless wonder then slap us with a huge price increase. I mean really the T-1 gets all brand new tooling and a kinematic drawbar. If I'm counting right that is one more feature then the Allegheny has. I thought the Y6B was just barely worth it. How is Lionel going to justify this price tag. On the Y6b the made up for the price with that great whistle and the simple to compound engine sounds. They better have something up their sleeve on this one. Why oh why did they not do this as a polished turd line! I guess Lionel is not in the business of putting smiles on peoples faces.

But you're still buying it  LOL....If anything, with that  $1800+ rant you put a big smile on their faces..

Joe

Hot Water posted:

Blue Streak posted:

So  I am only thinking about a Allegheny at this moment. But I would like to know before I order if the sounds are going to be correct. A Lionel response would be great. Also can anybody tell me if the C&O Caboose in the catalog is correct for this engine?

Thanks

I have not seen the catalog yet, but I'm willing to bet that Lionel did NOT pay for new tooling in order to produce a CORRECT C&O caboose. The only correct C&O cabooses available in O Scale, at reasonable prices are; first the Sunset/3rd Rail version, and second the old Quality Craft wood kit of the C&O woodside caboose. 

A continual problem with Lionel, they market high end steam in many roads but only a the biggest sellers get  its proper mate, the correct caboose. In your case they didn't even do that..

The Pere Marquette Berk is one good example, Issued four times but the caboose just once..I bought the last issue but I'll have to pay up to $300 to get a caboose in the secondary market.   Before I pay that, I'll sell the engine first.. They have a number of NE style cabeese in this catalog,  what would it have taken to fill the void and run a few in PM???      Answer.. practically nothing...they simply don't care...

A few years back MTH did a very nice C&O red woodsided extended vision caboose

Joe

>>>$850 is an extremely fair price for a MINT or Like-New JLC piece.<<<<

It was a tongue-in-cheek statement..   Given a choice, if wanted that particular engine , at $850,  I'd run, not walk for the JLC..

Joe 

For any rivet counters out there:

The JLC Allegheny is superbly done. It is a very accurate representation of the third (1948)  order of Alleghenies and has a correct road number for that order. For the Legacy version, Lionel is planning to do the 1601 and 1604 from the first (1941) order and there are some minor spotting differences:

• The 1948 engines had overfire jets on the sides of the firebox. Lionel would have to eliminate these on the 1601, 1604.
• Because of the location of the rearmost overfire jet the ladder in front of the cab on the 1948's is angled back instead of straight. The 1941 Alleghenies had a straight ladder.
• The 1948 order had six pane cab windows, the 1941 order had 8 pane cab windows.
• The 1948's bells were mounted on a fixed bracket. The 1941 order had bell brackets that looked like those that would be used on swinging bells.

There are a few other even more minor differences. At the price Lionel is asking I would hope Lionel would make these changes but I doubt they will.

The Virginian Allegheny (called a Blue Ridge, not Allegheny) has a couple of the significant differences from the C&O engines. The sand domes on the Blue Ridges were much smaller than the C&O's. The deck on the tender above the water tank was higher on the Virginian and slopped inward at the top. Only Sunset 3RD Rail has done a Blue Ridge correctly. I seriously doubt if Lionel will make those changes given the new tooling that would be required.

A bit of trivia - The C&O Alleghenies were primarily bought for used in the mountains. Since the Virginian mainlines in the mountainous areas of WVA and VA were electrified they didn't really need mainline steam there, so the Blue Ridges were mainly used between Roanoke and Norfolk on much flatter land.

Ken

Hump Yard Mike posted:

Regarding cabooses, Lionel came out with nice scale C&O caboose a few years ago.  I always thought it was right.  Maybe some folks can comment on it here.

 

The Lionel caboose is simply a Northeasten style caboose with the extra windows blanked out, however its not a bad representation for the price. The end railings, steps, and roof ends on the Lionel are wrong.

The only accurate C&O steam era cabooses made have been:

• Recent Sunset 3RD Rail steel sided
• Right of Way steel sided
• Rich Yoder woodsided
• Quality Craft/Gloor Craft woodsided kit

Of these the Rich Yoder cab is by far the nicest and best constructed.

Atlas Industrial Rail has a steel sided that's nearly correct except for being very undersized and incorrect trucks. KLine also had a steel sided that was close but again undersized.

On the caboose in the 2016 catalog, this is a straight up Northeastern style caboose that the C&O acquired from the Western Maryland in the late 50's/early 60's well after the retirement of the Alleghenies. The yellow paint scheme is strictly diesel era.

Ken

I compared the expanded, or "zoomed-in", image of the JLC Allegheny from the earlier catalog, link is http://www.lionel.com/products...egheny-1650-6-38081/,  with the expanded image of the Allegheny in the 2016 catalog. I'm not sure whether the 2016 image is just another JLC file image with some photo-shop editing on the number-boards or whether it is an image of what will be released. My perception is that the 2016 image looks a bit less refined than the JLC version but this likely can be the result of the 2016 catalog image quality that many are commenting on.

I am still on the fence about buying one.  I only paid slightly more for the Vision Line Big Boy.

We've come a ways from my neat little 1:58 K-line VGN Allegheny (I know, s/b a "Blue Ridge", and look a bit different). It still looks good (except for the short firebox "skirts", runs well (TMCC/Cruise/sound) and has satisfied my Allegheny wants for a long time.

Last year a friend sold to another friend an MTH PS1 Allegheny for $400. Yes. Lightly used; flawless. Why I did not jump on that...add ERR CC/RS for $200...I must have been having a moment...

The new one is snazzier, for sure and certain. But. $1700 and up. I do wish that L or M offered a true Blue Ridge. Didn't 3rd Rail?  

Anyone know when the ETA for the Allegheny is?  If it is not until end of the year than I will probably lean towards it.  More time = more money saved up.