Lionel H10 Problem, How to Fix?

Replace the fan motor.

Call Lionel for an RA shipping label.  Let them know a qualified service technician felt the fan motor needed to be replaced because of the intensity of the noise.  Ship the engine AFTER Christmas and enjoy it until then with the smoke off.  The H-10 is a very nice engine.  I love my Western Allegheny #85 and Pennsylvania Lines #1709.  My Western Allegheny can pull eleven of my 21" passenger cars with no difficulty.

My luck with new engines has been terrible, especially with big articulated engines.  The H-10s have been the best engines I purchased in the last two years.

Lionel Service is "slammed" according to Dean, the Service Manager.  Get the RA now, before Christmas presents are opened and MORE items need Lionel Service's attention.

Smoke units have always been the weak spot in steam engines, even back in 1968.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Depends on your skill level, you can do the fix yourself if you don't want to wait for Lion-snail to deal with it, its up to you.

Eric Siegel has made a video outlining the general steps on how to try and quiet a loud smoke unit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ie1ByI3Z4Y

I have posted a few shots on how to take the boiler off of the frame in this thread:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...h-power-tools?page=1

I a not one to care about warranty BUT if you feel that may bring you issues in the future, then definitely go the way of sending the engine to service.

In any case, this is a very common issue I see, more so with Lionel than MTH but I have had a few NOS MTH engines give me loud smoke motors before.

Hope this helps!!

Consider yourself lucky: my brand new E6 Legacy Atlantic loco won’t run at all when the smoke unit is turned on. 

It has been with my dealer now for over two months while they try to get Lionel to provide a fix for it.

$800 sitting on a shelf in their workshop.  

I find this ridiculous. 

One last question regarding Eric's test of the fan motor after adding oil: he previously unplugged the molex plug that connects the PCB board to the rest of the electronics - can you apply battery power directly to the fan motor without damaging the fan motor circuit on the PCB?

RickM46 posted:

One last question regarding Eric's test of the fan motor after adding oil: he previously unplugged the molex plug that connects the PCB board to the rest of the electronics - can you apply battery power directly to the fan motor without damaging the fan motor circuit on the PCB?

The fan motor circuit, on the H10, is built into the main legacy board so disconnecting the smoke unit from the main PCB will isolate it completely from any other electronics and allow you to test the fan and resistor with 5VDC without posing any issues. This may not be the case for all models but at least for the most recent legacy stuff I have taken apart, they are all controlled by the main board, no electronics on the smoke unit at all.

Another thing to take into consideration, and I've seen it before, the fan blades are pressure fit to the fan motor shaft, if you, or the factory worker, pushed the fan blades too far down or not far enough, the blades will rub on either the screws that hold the fan motor to the body of the smoke unit (Too far down) or the blades will rub on the PCB of the smoke unit (Too far up). Either will cause fan noise and oil will not fix this.

Hope this helps!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Replace the fan motor.

How about a video of  severity of the noise before the OP opens the snake in a can?

Even you were reluctant to open it John, and Daniel took the leap and this loco is loaded with wires.

These new fan motors do make a bit of electrical motor noise but are a far cry from the horrendous squeal of the older defective fan motors from a few years ago.

These shell mounted smoke units on these are tiny and tedious to work on.  You may want to let Lionel handle it, IF you can get someone to answer the phone.

A properly working fan motor should draw between 30-40 milliamps, anything above that is suspect.  Also, it should be almost silent, just a very faint whirring noise from the impeller.  It should also start and run on 1.5 volts.  I've never seen a fan motor that's good that won't spin on 1.5 volts.

Obviously, all these voltages are DC.

RickO posted:

Even you were reluctant to open it John, and Daniel took the leap and this loco is loaded with wires.

 Well, that was mostly because of the ugliness I found in the tender!   I've opened hundreds of locomotives, and I can assure you, some of them have much more convoluted wiring than the H10.  Don't get me started on the home-brew jobs!

Trying to be helpful I offer this,  continue to run the fan motor as-is, until the noise stops because of the following:

1. A piece in the fan wears-in and stops squealing.  (I have had passenger car trucks that squeal at first and completely quiet down with wear.)

2, The fan motor finally fails and stops --- Dead --- Quiet.  (Now you should get some Cab blinks warning of an issue.)

Let the fan motor run and see if the noise lessens.  If not, you can't break it, it already doesn't work correctly. 

I have sent engines and sound and passenger cars to Lionel for Service over fifty times in the last three years, … and some of them three times.  My UPS office starts laughing when they see me coming.  "And another one bites the dust."  Lionel sometimes has three of my engines at once.  I am one of their good Volume Customers.

Have a Merry Christmas

Sincerely, John Rowlen

P.S.  Remember to get the RA now.  After Christmas morning, Lionel will be very busy until April or May, or June, or July. ...

Here’s a video, hopefully this will help

TrainMan1225 posted:

Here’s a video, hopefully this will help

Hey Nick,

I stand by what I said before. I have a Legacy Heavy Mikado and it made the exact same noise. Not only did I oil the motors I also made sure nothing was hitting the fan blades.

I would take the unit apart if you are ok with doing it yourself. Then oil the motor shaft and run the motor a bit, if the sound is gone, press the fan blades back on the shaft being mindful not to push it too far down or leave it too far up that it hits the PCB. Again, test before putting it back in the engine when it's fully assembled. If no noise is heard then remount the smoke unit and put everything back together.

If when you oil the motor, it still makes noise, it's time for a new motor.

Hope this helps!

I can barely hear any sounds on the video, but when I take apart a smoke unit with a noisy motor, I put a new motor in.  I've already done all the labor, and the part costs peanuts.

I test smoke motors in the bench before I install them, so I know they'll run on 1.5V, and draw no more than 40ma at 5V.  If they fail either of those tests, they don't get used.

Sounds like a fan problem to me however if it was hitting something I don’t think the motor would still spin. If it’s under warranty let Lionel fix it. If not take it apart and put in a new motor. If your not comfortable doing it then give GRJ a call for quote. 

Woke up in the middle of the night thinking "Coal".  During shipping a small grain of coal could have migrated down the stack into the engine body.  Once there it could have fallen in the air intake on the fan motor.

Turn the engine up-side-down and gently shake. If there is something in the fan, you may be able to get it out and let it fall out of the engine.

Please remember I am still asleep, and this may be a dream.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Now that I have experience with fixing one smoke unit (Big Boy main stack, 2 fan motors, 2 fan blades, soldering the fan wires, new PCB board, repositioning the resistors and thermistors, new reservoir, new batting, one screw hole stripped at the factory (#@!n), much help from the forum)  - I am now dangerous.  Lionel just happened to have all the parts; they limit the number of fan motors they will sell you. 

Eric's video is dead nuts on and easy to follow; although, I didn't remove the molex plugs tugging on the wires, gently wedged the plugs free from their sockets using a small flathead screwdriver - no marring to the plugs. 

If in your shoes, I would take a run at it.  I think there are pictures in another thread of the inside of the boiler.

My new Niagara, had one handrail on the cab broken out of the box (fixed it with epoxy, crazy glue failed); suspect maybe shipping did it.  So now, am hesitant to ship any loco anywhere.

Keep us up on your decision.  My 2 cents.

Sorry, but to me it sounds like the plastic fan blade is very very slightly hitting something.  You can clearly hear the motor spinning very fast and the plastic blade must be barely rubbing somewhere.  It not enough to stop the motor but just enough to make that horrible sound.

If it were me I would take it apart and simply check for extra flashing on the fan blade or like others have said , pushed down to far on shaft.

I find waiting months for Lionel service to be unacceptable.  Christmas rush or not.    

You other choice is to exchange it from where you bought it if they have any more available.

Taking the cover off the smoke unit should tell the tale quickly.

I just had the same problem...... **** smoke unit motors!    Just took it apart and put a drop of oil on the motor shaft, all good.  I used some mobile 1 I had from the car, just to get fancy , I'll see if stays quiet for 10,000 miles

We'll see how long it lasts. If it does it again, I'll replace it, what stinks about that is, a new one could fail just the same.

NOTE: I thought possibly flooded the smoke unit,  stack smoke wasn't great and I kept adding 5-6 drops here or there trying NOT to flood it. whistle smoke has been good all along.

After opening it up the wicking was BONE DRY. Lionel is not kidding in the manual when it recommends 20 drops on the first fill, it could probably take 30. The smoke unit reservior is rather deep on these so theres plenty of room for fluid. It smokes, like crazy on the lowest setting now and matches the volume of the whistle.

THANKS DANIEL FOR THE PICTURES ON JOHNS THREAD! This wasn't horrible to open, plenty of room for the wires, and theres alot of slack in the stack smoke unit so its not even necessary to unplug it when repairing.

I did however find a fiber washer sitting on top of the gearbox, I could not find anywhere near where it was sitting that it would go other than as a gasket for a screw on top of the gearbox ? One screw was recessed a bit for a washer and looked like an upper grease port.   If it was for the shell or something I should have had 2 or 4.  I suppose it was just sloppyness by the builder (nah couldn't be) .  Loco runs fine, no issues so I'll hang onto the washer for the parts bin.

RickO posted:

I just had the same problem...... **** smoke unit motors!    Just took it apart and put a drop of oil on the motor shaft, all good.  I used some mobile 1 I had from the car, just to get fancy , I'll see if stays quiet for 10,000 miles

We'll see how long it lasts. If it does it again, I'll replace it, what stinks about that is, a new one could fail just the same.

NOTE: I thought possibly flooded the smoke unit,  stack smoke wasn't great and I kept adding 5-6 drops here or there trying NOT to flood it. whistle smoke has been good all along.

After opening it up the wicking was BONE DRY. Lionel is not kidding in the manual when it recommends 20 drops on the first fill, it could probably take 30. The smoke unit reservior is rather deep on these so theres plenty of room for fluid. It smokes, like crazy on the lowest setting now and matches the volume of the whistle.

THANKS DANIEL FOR THE PICTURES ON JOHNS THREAD! This wasn't horrible to open, plenty of room for the wires, and theres alot of slack in the stack smoke unit so its not even necessary to unplug it when repairing.

I did however find a fiber washer sitting on top of the gearbox, I could not find anywhere near where it was sitting that it would go other than as a gasket for a screw on top of the gearbox ? One screw was recessed a bit for a washer and looked like an upper grease port.   If it was for the shell or something I should have had 2 or 4.  I suppose it was just sloppyness by the builder (nah couldn't be) .  Loco runs fine, no issues so I'll hang onto the washer for the parts bin.

"I'll see if stays quiet for 10,000 miles"

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Glad you got it fixed my friend!

Loud smoke motors seem to be fairly common these days lol but hey, gives me a chance to see what's under the hood of my engines.

Happy New Year!

RickO posted:

NOTE: I thought possibly flooded the smoke unit,  stack smoke wasn't great and I kept adding 5-6 drops here or there trying NOT to flood it. whistle smoke has been good all along.

After opening it up the wicking was BONE DRY. Lionel is not kidding in the manual when it recommends 20 drops on the first fill, it could probably take 30. The smoke unit reservior is rather deep on these so theres plenty of room for fluid. It smokes, like crazy on the lowest setting now and matches the volume of the whistle.

I did the exact same thing!! I haven't opened the engine up yet because of other projects, but planning to do that soon. I had my family's Christmas Eve party at my house this year and it gave me a great opportunity to show off the engine. I had to have the smoke off because of the issue, but even if the smoke unit was fine I still would have left it off because I had the engine running for most of the night.

I find your observation about the smoke unit reservoir to be surprising. I heard from a video of someone's PRSL H10 that the reservoir was small, and he overfilled it a little when first filling it, but maybe I misheard him. I'll keep that in mind when I open it up.