Lionel HO & Tinplate lines.

Tinplate traditions will be back in the MTH line at some point but MTH owns most if not all of the tooling. MTH had the rights under the contract to use the Lionel name plate.  Mike Wolf had said he probably wouldn’t have tooled up for a locomotive like the “Brute” if he couldn’t use the Lionel name. I don’t know for sure but I would think the tinplate contract might have worked out OK for both companies. 

Marx and Flyer both dipped into HO at various times. They both had some success with it. Lionel also. It made sense at the time. Same when some of them dipped into slot cars. Looking back it doesn't make as much sense. But hindsight is always 20/20.

@Jushavnfun posted:

Should Lionel have dived into HO back in the 50's , was it a good move then and even now.

HO was in the catalog from 1957 to 1966.

My first set of trains was Lionel HO- ATSF Passenger set w/ Alco A B power and 5 streamlined cars. I ran the wheels off of it (not literally). The loco had a worm drive and could pull anything I put behind it.

Bob

Athearn and Riviarrossi made a fair amount of HO for Lionel back in the late 50's.

Today, there is a lot of competition in HO, particularly at the high end, highly detailed HO.  Most HO folks are driven by detail and running qualities, not by brand name.  There are also well established companies for mid-line and low end HO.

Now, it remains to be seen how acquiring the HO line from Model Rectifier Corp, which consists of mostly recycled Marx, Mantua/Tyco and Model Power, does in today's HO market.  I couldn't help but notice that the prices have "disappeared" from Lionel's online HO catalog...

This is what, Lionel's 3rd or 4th attempt over the decades to make a significant beachhead in HO?

Rusty

Lionel 1958:

Lionel 1976:

Bachmann now uses the GS-4 tooling...

Rusty

My sole piece of H.O. equipment...

Seeing as back in the mid-1960s a friend gave me a used Lionel Santa Fe "GP9", this thread piqued my curiosity. So, I searched eBay for HO Lionel. What I turned up was quite interesting.

For example, IF this first piece is from the late 1950s, then given the state of the art at the time, it is quite nice. Note there are no "claws" used to hold the doors to the runners, and also note the cast metal sprung trucks:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/POSTW...b:g:-ToAAOSwEjtdaC9F

However, can't say the same about their "GP9". (Which appears to suffer from the same identity crisis as the Athearn "GP9"... the louvers indicate the models to be GP7's.) It was atrocious:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lione...a:g:bMAAAOSwNq9eR5oA

Conversely, Lionel's HO Alco FA1 was, again, quite nice for the era:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lione...5:g:JhcAAOSw9J9d8GOM

A surprise to me is that Lionel did indeed offer an F unit (F7) in HO scale... BUT... apparently they didn't make it. It looks all the world like the first Athearn F7 models with the infamous rubber band "Hi-Fi" drive. I had Athearn F7's with this same drive and the models look identical.

wUAAOSw8iJeOzyw" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/POSTW...6:gwUAAOSw8iJeOzyw

Like I said, all of the above I found quite interesting. I didn't realize that their original HO line they launched in the late 1950s was so extensive. I also was surprised to find some of the models were quite nice for their day. And of course, I was not so much surprised, as I was amused, at some of the asking prices. Tends to make me think the sellers used the "Pipe Dream Pricing" method: $124 + $10.85 shipping for a boxcar (that's missing a coupler, no less)?

Anyway, I enjoyed my sashay down Learning Lane and now I know a bit more about Lionel's HO offerings than I did previous to this thread!

Andre

Lionel HO catalogs can be found HERE.

Rusty

@laming posted:

S

Conversely, Lionel's HO Alco FA1 was, again, quite nice for the era:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lione...5:g:JhcAAOSw9J9d8GOM

A surprise to me is that Lionel did indeed offer an F unit (F7) in HO scale... BUT... apparently they didn't make it. It looks all the world like the first Athearn F7 models with the infamous rubber band "Hi-Fi" drive. I had Athearn F7's with this same drive and the models look identical.

Andre

Prior to the F7's, Lionel used FM C-Liners from Rivarrossi, long before AHM got hold of them.  There was an article about them in a recent HO Collector magazine.

The 1960's FA's came from Hobbyline tooling, Lionel developed their own drive.

The most bizarre thing Lionel did was to make a high-steppin' 2-4-2 out of the Hobbyline 0-4-0.

Interesting little tidbit: During the mid/late 1980's, Athearn did a run of "Blue Box" Erie gondola kits.  The artwork still had a small Lionel logo on them.  (I remember seeing one at my LHS, shoulda bought it.)  Athearn eventually recalled unsold gondolas to blank out the logo.

Rusty

Thanks Rusty for the link to the catalogs!

I dig vintage HO and enjoy collecting online catalogs, pictures and such.

Didn't know that about the C-Liner. Who tooled the dies?

Looks like the FA made its catalog debut in 1959. I vaguely recall obtaining a (1960?) Lionel catalog of some sort that had both O and HO therein. (I think?) I think I remember artist renditions of an O set and it's HO sibling side-by-side? IF such existed, then I assume that would have been in a "main" catalog and not a scale specific catalog.

Anyway, I saved all of the Lionel HO catalogs into my new "Lionel" sub-folder within my "Vintage HO" folder. Thanks again!

EDIT: All of the 1950s and 1960s catalogs. Not interested in the 70s stuff.

Andre

@laming posted:

Didn't know that about the C-Liner. Who tooled the dies?

Rivarrossi in Italy. 

I had an opportunity to buy a pair of undecorated, pre-Lionel, Rivarrossi C-Liners (kits, no less) once, the bodies were cast in Bakelite.  I figured Bakelite would be impossible to work with, so I passed.

@laming posted:

Looks like the FA made its catalog debut in 1959. I vaguely recall obtaining a (1960?) Lionel catalog of some sort that had both O and HO therein. (I think?) I think I remember artist renditions of an O set and it's HO sibling side-by-side? IF such existed, then I assume that would have been in a "main" catalog and not a scale specific catalog.

Andre

Yep... The Twin Railroad Empire was in the 1960 catalog:

Rusty

Rivarossi:

I should have known. I guess their history in HO goes back quite a ways. I returned to HOseeker to learn more about Rivarossi only to discover that most of their website doesn't work for me.

Clicking on some of the hyperlinks directs me to this error page:

https://hoseeker.net/gallery/i....php?album=hotrains4

???

Twin set:

Wow... I'm not too senile yet. Can't believe I got the date right.

I didn't recall it actually being a set, though. I just remembered the artist's rendition of the two sets.

Fun stuff.

Andre

Andre,

Here's a link to an Italian site for Rivarrossi.  It's a little odd to use, but catalogs go back to 1946.  It appears  their first American prototypes were made in 1948: the B&O 0-4-0T Docksider and Milwaukee Road Hiawatha 4-4-2.

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it...i/Riva_Cataloghi.htm

Rusty

HO may have been good for them back in the day if the product was decent and perhaps could have helped them if they stayed with it. This is purely speculation on my part. I can say that early HO was not good. I have the HO Lionel B&O gold GP-9. It may have been good by the standards of the day for HO, but does not have build quality to give it the longevity of their O gauge offerings. It doesn't run now and getting it back to running condition will take way more effort than I am willing to expend on the project. Their O gauge on the the other hand is much better and is easy to find parts for and repair.

As far as today goes, there are plenty of players in the HO world, with plenty of good product out there, that would make it unlikely for Lionel to enter this segment again. I don't know how MTH is doing with it, but too many players in the market will cause some to fail.

@Mike D posted:

 

As far as today goes, there are plenty of players in the HO world, with plenty of good product out there, that would make it unlikely for Lionel to enter this segment again.

HO in Lionel's 2019 catalogs and recent HO catalog indicate different. 

However, it's not the entry... it's the staying power.  As you've said, there are plenty of players in HO providing competition and from my time in HO and overall observation, branding is less important than the operational quality and detail to the average HOer.

It will take a couple of years to see if this latest expedition into HO succeeds.

Rusty

Hi Mike D:

Whereas I was impressed (above) upon viewing some of the vintage Lionel offerings from the late 50s to mid-60s, the running characteristics of the one engine I had "back then" was not impressive. (It was awful.) Also, bear in mind that my comments were made in comparing Lionel's offerings to contemporary offerings during that same era. There's no way their vintage products would be able to have the staying power in today's market.

Back then, I don't think Lionel understood the trends in HO that were taking place in the late 50s on. That is, there was a movement underway for more scale fidelity and HO was growing into a "serious" hobby, thus the market for exploding boxcars and such would have very limited appeal to the hobbyist that was evolving toward more realism. As for the Christmas toy market, the Christmas train fad was dying down at an alarming rate, and slot cars were coming on in a big way.

Today? Same deal: They'd better understand the market if they want to survive. Today's HO market far more refined than it was in either of Lionel's previous HO attempts. (i.e. Late 50s to mid 60s, then later in the early 70s.) In the HO market of today, they're going to have to go up against some very heavy hitters (and very established) in the HO world. Then there are the "new" companies in HO that are producing some amazing product.

IMHO, Lionel's chief competitor, MTH, entered the HO market not having a clue what the vast majority of the HO hobbyist is looking for. Example: Oversized "Electric Couplers" are a gimmick and totally unwanted by today's "serious" HO hobbyist. That is, IF a company is going to offer equipment in today's world it HAS to be easily converted (i.e. "drop in") to one of a selection of "scale" type knuckle couplers.

Of course, the above is merely my opinion that comes from being involved in the HO hobby since '62, so what do I know?

Andre

@laming posted:

Clicking on some of the hyperlinks directs me to this error page:

https://hoseeker.net/gallery/i....php?album=hotrains4

???

Try THIS LINK, and THIS ONE.

I do not see it mentioned above - has everyone forgotten the recent Lionel HO effort? (earlier 2000's) The one that yielded the HO Lionel UP Challenger and Gas Turbine? Couldn't sell them, apparently. I actually saw a serious question posted here back then: "what kind of track does Lionel HO run on?"

Really?

And those HOers would see the name "Lionel" and walk away without even looking at these very nice locos. The same problem exists today - knee-jerk trumps open-mindedness every time. I have essentially been called a liar at train shows when trying to explain modern Lionel to these people. I no longer waste my breath on stupid.

@D500 posted:

I do not see it mentioned above - has everyone forgotten the recent Lionel HO effort? (earlier 2000's) The one that yielded the HO Lionel UP Challenger and Gas Turbine? Couldn't sell them, apparently. I actually saw a serious question posted here back then: "what kind of track does Lionel HO run on?"

Really?

And those HOers would see the name "Lionel" and walk away without even looking at these very nice locos. The same problem exists today - knee-jerk trumps open-mindedness every time. I have essentially been called a liar at train shows when trying to explain modern Lionel to these people. I no longer waste my breath on stupid.

The Challengers and Turbines were probably a simple case of "too big, too soon."  The Challenger was $699.99 in 2004.  Pretty big bucks back then.  Athearn's most recent Challenger (2018) was $629.95 DCC/Sound.

Lionel at best would be in a position today for the starter and low end-middle markets with their current offerings.  Their Berkshire is spartan compared to Bachmann's, most rolling stock is ex-Marx or Model Power and how well the reworked Mantua Mikado's sell remain to be seen.

Rusty

I found a shop now listing w/images of HO items at the Lionel site that consisted of 8 pages. The only engines I saw was their Mantua 2-8-2 in various liveries.  All of the pages I viewed featured products from the former toy train lines that they purchased. Is there more that I'm missing?

I was a Lionel dealer in those years. As I remember Athearn made all or most of their engines. The diesels used the same rubber band drive. The only thing we sold a lot of was the GS-4s. They were stupid cheap and we couldn't keep them in stock. Most of their equipment worked but was on the cheap side and not a lot of detail. I remember thinking these trains are not going to be around in even twenty years. To me it didn't pay to fix them. I think I still have most of the catalogs. Don

@laming posted:

I found a shop now listing w/images of HO items at the Lionel site that consisted of 8 pages. The only engines I saw was their Mantua 2-8-2 in various liveries.  All of the pages I viewed featured products from the former toy train lines that they purchased. Is there more that I'm missing?

The other contemporary Lionel HO is in the two 2019 Lionel O catalogs.  Their only other HO locomotive thus far is the Polar Express Berkshire lettered for NKP, Santa Fe and North Pole Central.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

HO in Lionel's 2019 catalogs and recent HO catalog indicate different. 

However, it's not the entry... it's the staying power.  As you've said, there are plenty of players in HO providing competition and from my time in HO and overall observation, branding is less important than the operational quality and detail to the average HOer.

It will take a couple of years to see if this latest expedition into HO succeeds.

Rusty

As far as branding goes, I have to say that branding is often synonymous with quality. I have some HO and LOTS of N. I can say for certain that Kato, Atlas and Microtrains are the top of the line in ready to run N scale equipment. Those names go hand in hand with perceptions of quality, because they produce high quality products and they support their products.  When I see those names I know I am getting a quality product with very good detail.

If I were an HO guy, I would be hesitant to buy the Lionel products. If they get into N I would still hesitate to buy their stuff. My reason is that if this foray outside of the O gauge world fails, then I would be left with products that I can't repair or add on to later. That is one reason I quit buying N scale locomotives by Walthers. They don't support their products. At least the N scale locos aren't supported. I guess time will tell if Lionel can make it in this segment. If they are serious and produce quality products then perhaps they will be successful. There are many choices for HO guys. So if Lionel doesn't execute properly, they won't last.

@laming posted:

Hi Mike D:

There's no way their vintage products would be able to have the staying power in today's market.

Andre

I wasn't trying to compare those early products with today's products. That isn't a fair comparison. I was trying to point out that many of Lionel's O gauge products from the same period are still running great today. No so with the early HO stuff. Had they produced better quality HO products they could have done well and could have dominated HO like they had the early O gauge market.

When I purchased my Lionel HO Geep many years ago, I wasn't aware that Lionel ever marketed an HO product. I bought it when I saw the name. I assumed, because I didn't know any better at the time, that it would be the same quality of Lionel's O gauge stuff, which I felt was good. After some research I found out the story behind these products and realized what I had.