Lionel Legacy vs MTH DCS: which one?

I have the TH DCS only now and want to run some new Lionel trains. Is it pretty easy to add teh Legacy system ? and then can I run two trains at the same time one MTH the other Lionel ? What do I need to buy other than the Legacy system ? any cables to link the two ? If someone can post a picture of how these two work together I would appreciate it. 

This is the cable needed to connect the 2 systems together.  Just make sure you read the labeled ends as they are specific as to which device they go to.

I'm no where near an expert as those above but, I can give you my personal experience. I started as a dyed in the wool Post War Lionel guy but the features of command control fascinated me. Since Lionel was what I grew up on I purchased a TMCC  CAB1 set and a few TMCC engines. I thought I'd be set, but no, Legacy was such a giant leap forward it was impossible to resist so there I went, a Legacy CAB2 and now several Legacy engines. So now I'm looking for a Legacy New Haven F3, F7, FL9 or ALCO PA... in the McGinnis paint scheme but Lionel has not produced any in Legacy yet (hopefully in the future) but MTH has. Here's where having both command systems is a benefit. I can get the engine I want in that manufacturer's latest version and get all of their features if I own both systems.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I keep going back and forth. I don't see as much available in Lionel ( I may be looking in the wrong places ) And the lionel that I do find is 10-20% higher than MTH however some of the feature are really cool. My favorite Steam engine is the NPR #765. I own the MTH however the reviews on the Lionel version blows me away. But again is Lionel worth the extra money ?? And will MTh with the new Wireless APP catch up and have better features down the road. What are your favorite online stores for Lionel ? Around here its mostly MTH or Lionel stuff  for kids.

Thanks !

Lionel PE,

   As you can see by this thread most of us eventually purchased both systems, because we like both type engines.  In my Engineering opinion it is easier for a runner to first set up a good DCS layout, and then add legacy to it, than the other way around.  As far as the DCS wiring goes, if you use the correct discipline while building your DCS layout, you will never really have a problem, this is where Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion book is so great.  His exacting written instructions are just fantastic, and he covers how to add TMCC/Legacy to the DCS layout.  IMO Marty F maybe the foremost authority on DCS/Legacy layout building, his experience level & knowledge is just outstanding, and he participates here for you to ask questions of, he has always been very helpful to everybody.  Marty E is the Legacy man, his knowledge is like Marty's F's only on the Legacy side, he participates on the OGR also, and is willing to answer all our questions.  There are others of us who are very knowledgeable also, and we will help you as much as we can, when you decide to add command control to your conventional layouts.

Merry Christmas!

PCRR/Dave 

How is the MTH WiFi app <-->MTH-WiFi device <--> TMCC on Android going?

I'm game enough to try that.

What do I buy? The WIU, TIU, the above cable, and maybe the app?

I believe it starts shipping on 12/19/15  Mine is on order. Youtube has a couple demo videos by Mike Wolf on it. Looks pretty cool. 

Porsche1662 posted:

I have the TH DCS only now and want to run some new Lionel trains. Is it pretty easy to add teh Legacy system ? and then can I run two trains at the same time one MTH the other Lionel ? What do I need to buy other than the Legacy system ? any cables to link the two ? If someone can post a picture of how these two work together I would appreciate it. 

Questions answered in order

1: Yes--one wire connection to the outer rails

2: Yes. If you're willing to perform a juggling act and pay close attention to what they're doing, you could even run them coupled together*

3: If you buy the Legacy system, technically  you don't need to buy anything else, since they only come with the base+remote. The decision is already made for you if you add Legacy.

3a You can purchase the cable pictured above to link the two together if you want to use the DCS remote to run TMCC or Legacy locomotives (but done this way, you don't have access to the full Legacy feature set--only the extent of TMCC features) 

 3b I have a photo of my DCS connected to a TMCC base, but I can't access it till later this evening.

---PCJ

Coke-Pepsi, Pepsi-Coke. Sooner or later you're to have both...

RailRide posted:

Porsche1662 posted:

I have the TH DCS only now and want to run some new Lionel trains. Is it pretty easy to add teh Legacy system ? and then can I run two trains at the same time one MTH the other Lionel ? What do I need to buy other than the Legacy system ? any cables to link the two ? If someone can post a picture of how these two work together I would appreciate it. 

Questions answered in order

1: Yes--one wire connection to the outer rails

2: Yes. If you're willing to perform a juggling act and pay close attention to what they're doing, you could even run them coupled together*

3: If you buy the Legacy system, technically  you don't need to buy anything else, since they only come with the base+remote. The decision is already made for you if you add Legacy.

3a You can purchase the cable pictured above to link the two together if you want to use the DCS remote to run TMCC or Legacy locomotives (but done this way, you don't have access to the full Legacy feature set--only the extent of TMCC features) 

 3b I have a photo of my DCS connected to a TMCC base, but I can't access it till later this evening.

---PCJ

3a You can purchase the cable pictured above to link the two together if you want to use the DCS remote to run TMCC or Legacy locomotives (but done this way, you don't have access to the full Legacy feature set--only the extent of TMCC features) 

So if I skip the cable. ( I want the Lionel to gain feature MTH doesn't have ) I can run both separately on the same track ? Picture  later would be greatly appreciated. Having a hart time visualizing how to wire to the track if its not connected to MTH TIU   

If you have no desire for DCS to run your Lionel command engines the above cable is not needed.  You can take the 1 wire from the Legacy command base and attach it to the outside rail common or the common output of the DCS TIU.  If it's a newer model TIU the commons may need tied together if not done so already.

Porsche1662:  Lionel actually has two Legacy versions of NKP 765....and they're both fantastic, IMHO.  If you haven't already done so, you may want go to YouTube and watch some of the excellent videos of that loco running.  Absolutely tip top, IMHO.

Yes, the one that sold me was the review by Ericstrains however the first video you posted looks like my home town shop Stockyard Express. I didn't know they had any Lionel.

Im stopping by there in the morning since Mike Wolf will be there demoing the new wifi app. and I will see if they can get that one.  They always have a big smile on their faces when they see me come in the door. 

As to the OP's original question, please allow me to add my two cents:

What I don't think gets mentioned enough or that frequently gets forgotten is that Command Control....whatever flavor you prefer....is simply a tool.  It's a tool to operate your model railroad.  The trains and the layout are still the focal point...whether you're running conventionally, Lionel, or MTH.

That said, Command Control does open up a whole new world....if you're up for it.

Porsche1662 posted:

Yes, the one that sold me was the review by Ericstrains however the first video you posted looks like my home town shop Stockyard Express. I didn't know they had any Lionel.

Im stopping by there in the morning since Mike Wolf will be there demoing the new wifi app. and I will see if they can get that one.  They always have a big smile on their faces when they see me come in the door. 

Ha...I didn't see that you live in Olmsted Falls.  I'm in Avon....and yes...that is Stockyard Express.  Great hobby store and great people to be sure.

Perfect ! If I run into issue Ill stop over and pick you up !

Simply put, Command Control regardless of who makes it, let's you experience your layout from entirely different views instead of behind 1 control panel in 1 spot.  It also gives you a variety of features, if that's your thing, that conventional running does not.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Different strokes...

Found TMCC to be simpler and more robust; fewer problems getting it to work than with DCS.  Always some problem to resolve or "work-around" with DCS.

For me, as with most other responses came down to what kind of engines I wanted.  I bought Legacy first as I got into the hobby.  I wanted modern diesel engines and MTH has the most to offer, so I have both.  It's nice having both systems.  There are no limits and each one brings something a different kind of enjoyment.

Both. DCS is my primary because MTH engines work a little better for how I like to operate my layout. The Lionel Legacy engines are the beauty queens though. Looks, low speed control and especially sound have the edge on PS2 and PS3. So the PS2's and PS3's are the workers and the Legacy's are the cruisers. Other considerations are the MTH electrocouplers are better -- Legacy can be very stiff out of the box -- and repair/adjustment. I have taken off and easily replaced the shells on many MTH engines. I tried it once on a Legacy and will never do it again (just too tightly packed). But man! the Legacy lights and sound are just fantastic. And as others have said Legacy is a very easy install on top of DCS.

Porsche1662 posted:

Yes, the one that sold me was the review by Ericstrains however the first video you posted looks like my home town shop Stockyard Express. I didn't know they had any Lionel.

Im stopping by there in the morning since Mike Wolf will be there demoing the new wifi app. and I will see if they can get that one.  They always have a big smile on their faces when they see me come in the door. 

Not all the time. When the Vison Line Big Boy, NKP 765 and Polar Express came out they generated a number of orders many of which were mine. The 765 in the video belongs to me. It's a great locomotive but the smoke unit just went out on it again.

I have both DCS and Lionel Legacy. You do not have to hook the command bases together for them to work on the same layout. All you need to do is run the ground wire from the Lionel base to the track and you are good to go. You only really want to do connect them if you want to run the Lionel engines through the DCS remote. In my opinion it is much easier and more functional to use the Lionel remote for the Lionel Legacy or TMCC locomotives and the DCS remote for all of the MTH locomotives. Now however we will soon just be able to use the apps! Think of the possibilities as the new iPad Pros can run two apps at once!

If you would like more of an overview of the MTH Digital Command System check out this video I produced over a year ago of Mike Wolf giving a presentation about DCS at the York Train Meet.

TrainWizard5972 posted:

Not all the time. When the Vison Line Big Boy, NKP 765 and Polar Express came out they generated a number of orders many of which were mine. The 765 in the video belongs to me. It's a great locomotive but the smoke unit just went out on it again.

Hey there!!  I actually met you in the store last December or January on a Saturday.  You were patient enough to answer some of my basic MTH/DCS questions. 

IIRC, didn't you actually scenic one or both of the operating layouts at Stockyard Express?

For me the decision was simple, I had apparently picked up a few TMCC locos that were mis labeled as conventional, lucky me.  I had zero DCS locos.  So the choice was easy, the lionel system.  At the time there was Lionel, Weaver, Atlas and K-line all working off of the same system.  MTH remains , I think, a solo act.  Since I am in this for the trains not the technology the Lionel system was my choice.  If you want both systems and there are advocates of both, prepare to spend up front.  

Berkshire President posted:

TrainWizard5972 posted:

Not all the time. When the Vison Line Big Boy, NKP 765 and Polar Express came out they generated a number of orders many of which were mine. The 765 in the video belongs to me. It's a great locomotive but the smoke unit just went out on it again.

Hey there!!  I actually met you in the store last December or January on a Saturday.  You were patient enough to answer some of my basic MTH/DCS questions. 

IIRC, didn't you actually scenic one or both of the operating layouts at Stockyard Express?

Hi I do remember you! I did the design work, scenery and most of the wiring for the layout in what they call the New Room, and I pretty much influenced the idea of adding on that showroom in the first place. If you remember the Lionel Vision Line Big Boy that was on display that one is mine too.

Have you heard of the International Tree & Model Train Display? It is taking place at the Black River Transportation Center at Black River Landing in Lorain. I'm one of the displays. Tonight it goes from 5-9, Saturday 4-9, and Sunday 3-7 if you would like to check it out. Here's some more info on it. https://trainwizard.wordpress....display-lorain-ohio/

Which is better?  that is really a matter of preference as others have said.  Down deep in the nuts and bolts I think the actual technology and capabilities of one is much better than the other, but for practical use it doesn't really matter.  

As others have said it is probably best to choose the system that operates the brand you already have, or are most likely to purchase, but you should plan on investing in both systems at some point.  

As for an actual plus or minus, if you already have a layout together and want to know it will work without any re-wiring, Legacy is the right choice to start, but if you are building from scratch wire it for the 'star' wiring from the start, whichever system you choose, and you won't have problems if you decide to add the other.  

I had a couple threads going a while back to determine what there was that one system could do that the other could not and found that they each have a few system specific functions, so for those you'll have to decide which are more important to you.  I never got much information about how often people ever actually used some of those functions, other than that the legacy quelling whistle is very popular.  

JGL

which system is better is a valid question. However, it is impossible to answer. The only thing any of us can do to help you decide is tell you about which features we like and don't like. 

the question is similar to asking which car do you like, except here there are much fewer choices.

In deciding which is best, most of us have come to the conclusion that "feature-likes" are first a moving goal-post that change annually and second that its a good thing to have them all.

Which of course doesn't answer your question at all!

The "killer apps" are actually the locomotives.  The Legacy locos have better sound (IMHO) than MTH and I really enjoy running them, so Legacy is my recommendation for a first command control purchase.  DCS can be added when a PS2/3 loco is acquired.  As previously noted, adding Legacy to a layout is a single wire to the common track ground - simple.

My bias towards Legacy as a first system is also based on years of frustration dealing with DCS signal issues on large modular layouts as has been discussed at length on other forum threads.  Legacy also has signal issues on multi-level layouts but the solution (laying earth ground wires) is direct and simple compared to the complete rewiring my club did to achieve reliable DCS performance.

We still haven't totally "cracked the code" of running DCS on our modular club layout, so I'd have to lean to Legacy, especially if you're in a similar situation.  We can't really go with the "recommended" wiring configuration with a modular club layout.

I'm an experienced DCVS user, (had it since 02) and really like it. However I've had no experience with Legacy (TMCC yes). Here's my question.... Which system do you think gives   the best feel of operating a real engine or train .  Use your imagination.

Some like to sit back and watch 'em go, Others like to operate somewhat like a railway.

Where are you?

Gregg posted:

Which system do you think gives   the best feel of operating a real engine or train .  Use your imagination.

 

No offense.....but, in my humble opinion.....and with the utmost respect.....that is a marketing ploy.  And nothing more.

Neither system offers you a "real" throttle or break system so to speak.   And I like to stop my trains in a much shorter/less than realistic time frame.....for today's models aren't cheap. 

Just my two cents.  And again, I fully respect your opinion....and your right to completely disagree with me. 

I know this thread is old but it seemed wasteful to start something new in the same vein. Which control system is better for tricky lashups? And by tricky I am talking mixing locos that have speed or control system differences. There are some LU's I want to try but I am using TMCC only right now and I feel like its control is somewhat limited by the 32 speed steps and lack of adjustable speed curves. Let me know what you think for pros and cons of both in a lashup situation.

Doug,

   Sense the guys have beaten me up badly on my claim that DCS operates most all the Legacy functions, I want one of them to tell me just what percentage they believe DCS can actually control of our Legacy System.  I use both the HHRC's anyway, because my Cab2 operates all my wireless low voltage FTCC Switches, besides my Legacy/TMCC/ERR Engines.  

Can't tell you about the 32 step control being limiting, never owned a Cab1 (TMCC).  The Legacy Cab2 seems to have way more than enough control steps to make any operator happy.  The lash ups work well in both DCS & Legacy systems, although I seldom use them any more.  I have to admit my DCS needed a magic light inside my 14' Bar/Tunnel even after MartyE upgraded my DCS package to 6.1.  

Funny thing is the DCS showed all 10's even before the light was added, however there was a slight slow down, about mid way thru the big tunnel, and my FasTrack is Blocked and Powered correctly.  The Legacy Engines never missed a beat going thru the big Tunnel.   Just added the DCS Magic Light in the big Tunnel this week, and it solved the problem completely.  To me this should not have happened with the DCS 6.1 upgrade, can't quite figure this out, I took a chance on the Magic light once again, in the middle of the Tunnel and it worked, no more slight slow down by any of the P2 or P3 engines.  

PCRR/Dave

Sooner or later you will want both DCS & Legacy.

This is an older thread - but that's OK.

I'm a fan of Legacy and its simplicity  and , at the same time, its robust operating capabilities.  I like the Legacy sound and other Lionel operating features.

So ... I've honestly sold almost all my MTH locs because I enjoy the Legacy system more.

Obviously, as someone said, it's a matter of personal choice.  Enjoying trains is the main thing.  

I have both systems, I now use the dcs app and that runs legacy engines better in my opinion than the legacy remote does

Got em' both.   Use em' both.   Love em' both.   I have the MTH Wi Fi as well.

Chief Bob (Retired)

"Which control system is better for tricky lashups? And by tricky I am talking mixing locos that have speed or control system differences."

I've not got hands on experience with lashups, but I can tell you this based upon watching other people do lashups and reading about other people's experiences.  Straightforward MTH lashups to other MTH locos or Lionel lashups to Lionel locos are usually relatively straightforward, as you know. Lashing up MTH and Lionel command locos together can be problematic, but this cannot be fixed by using one system or the other.  DCS (MTH's system) only operates Lionel locos by "talking" to the command base, so any inherent limitations of the Lionel lashups (much less MTH and Lionel lashups) remain.  So if you have Lionel command locos only, use the Legacy system.  Using DCS won't improve the ability to control Lionel locos because the Lionel locos are limited by whatever the Legacy system and their mechanics/electronics's limitations are.  

When someone says DCS or the DCS app controls Legacy locos better than the Legacy remote or Lionel app, what they are saying is they like the interface better.  It is not physically possible for DCS to do anything but control Lionel locos through the Legacy system.  Indeed, you cannot operate Lionel locos by DCS without the Lionel Legacy or Lionel command base.  You may find, as some mention, that you prefer the DCS interface, but it doesn't change Legacy loco operation one bit.

I asked myself this same question a few years ago and currently have both systems.  They both have something to offer so it's nice to run some Legacy around for a few weeks then back to something MTH.  Now with the WIU I run both with the app which makes it even more appealing to have both.

Dave,

Honestly, I would agree that if the DCS App doesn't operate all Legacy engine functions, the percentage is still in the high 90's.

I should be clear, however, that Legacy control via the DCS App is restricted to Legacy engines and their lashups, and any other Lionel TMCC components, such as a TPC device or ERR module that can be operated as if it were a TMCC engine.

Devices such as the TMCC crane car (and, I would expect, the Legacy version as well) also work well from the DCS App.

The DCS Remote, however, can control only TMCC engines and Legacy engines in TMCC mode.

"The DCS Remote, however, can control only TMCC engines and Legacy engines in TMCC mode."

That's the reason why I don't agree with the contention that DCS should be the primary interface for controlling Legacy locomotives.   TMCC commands are a subset of Legacy commands.  If you want to enjoy all the features on Legacy locomotives, you should be running a Legacy base and Cab2 (or a Legacy-capable app).

I have both systems.  Legacy is easy set up for Lash ups.  Love both.

Tracker John,

   This is why I recommend running both DCS & Legacy and using both HHRC's and if you like the WiFi Ap use that also.  Myself I have no need for the Ap stuff, I like the HHRC's and have waited my entire life to run my Tin Plate O Gauge Trains from them, and now MTH wants to eliminate the DCS HHRC, not cool.  Believe me there are a lot of guys just like me.  I think I am going to purchase another complete DCS Package and set it aside just to make sure I always have an extra DCS HHRC available.

PCRR/Dave

OK Guys....I have had several alerts....I deleted and edited and don't want to do it again so play nice with each other...actually, just go play with your trains!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

....   Honestly, I would agree that if the DCS App doesn't operate all Legacy engine functions, the percentage is still in the high 90's.   ....

Barry,

I haven't tried this yet....  Does the DCS App support the "TRAINLINK" function for Legacy lash-ups?  That's how Lionel's terrific StationSounds cars are controlled on the CAB-2.  They're added to the locomotive lash-up, and then the CAB-2 toggles between controlling the locomotive speed/features and the StationSounds dining car announcements, volume, etc... by using the TRAINLINK button.

So is there a TRAINLINK "button" on the DCS App?  Sorry for the basic question... I just haven't gotten to the point where I'm controlling lash-ups with the DCS App yet -- just using either the DCS remote hand-held (for MTH lash-ups) or the Legacy CAB-2 (for Lionel lash-ups) right now.  I did look thru the DCS WiFi Companion rather quickly, but I didn't see the TRAINLINK function mentioned.  If it's there, I missed it.     Thanks!!!

David

Yea sorry , what I mean is that , I run both legacy and dcs, my legacy is hooked in to my dcs and I use an iPad with dcs app to run both . The way the app is set up I think it runs the trains better than the legacy remote or the cab 2. I'm not trying to sell the WiFi dcs but the screen is so clear and big. I could never go back, and I was sketchy at first like others. My 3.5 year old son loves it. Try it on something bigger than a phone.

David,

I don't believe that Trainlink is supported, at present. As I said earlier, not 100% but close.  

Barry Broskowitz posted:

David,

I don't believe that Trainlink is supported, at present. As I said earlier, not 100% but close.  

Thanks Barry... I only asked because I looked thru the DCS WiFi Companion and didn't see any mention of it.  And I really haven't used the DCS App for lash-ups yet.  I'm sure we'll see it at some point down the road.  Until then, I won't toss my Cab-2 yet.  

David

I have been using both systems, including WiFi through the MTH app on an android phone, on my test layout over the last couple of years.  Over two years ago I wrote the following, and I have not changed my opinion.

"...  My recommendation is not to limit yourself to one system: plan to buy both at some point.  I have both and I like them both.  I run Legacy engines with my Legacy remote, not through the DCS system, which works well for me.  I do this mainly because I like the Legacy remote better than the DCS one, plus I really like Legacy's quilling whistle.  If you already have a layout I'd go with Legacy first because of its easy setup.  If you want to try command control with the least investment, you can buy an older TMCC Cab1 and base pretty cheap to run TMCC engines (which can be found fairly cheap too) and Legacy engines in TMCC mode. No matter what you do, you will really like command control."  My only addition is, after using the MTH app to control both systems, I still prefer the cab2 for my TMCC/Legacy engines.

The unconstrained optimum is always the best - get 'em both!

Gentlemen,

   I love both DCS and Legacy, it took me years to add Legacy to my DCS Multi-Level layouts. I did not even own a TMCC  Base & Cab1 or Cab1L & Cab1L Base.  

However when Lionel came out with FTCC Switches that all changed immediately.  I was using FasTrack with old 711/072 Switches, and running my Tin Plate via DCS, Switch wiring and all.  That all changed with the addition of both Legacy and the Cab2 and 072 wireless plug and play low voltage FTCC Switches.  I am so addicted to the FTCC Switches that I recently purchased a 2nd 990 Legacy unit.  

I do believe in the Future Lionel will bring out wireless FTCC/PSC Switches, meaning FasTrack Command Control, with Power Siding Control.  These Switches will not only control where your train runs, via the turn outs, it will control the power delivered to the different sidings or areas of your layout, via power on/off control, directly from the Legacy HHRC via the advanced Switches. 

These are just some of the dreams I had as a boy while running my Trains, I have now lived long enough, to see some of them already come to life.  Hoping Lionel & MTH engineers continue making my boy hood dreams come true.  IMO running both systems is the only way to take full advantage of all the different modern Engineering advancements in our hobby.

PCRR/Dave

Construction on the new Train Room Continues.

Both!

MartyE posted:

Well they do sell the Base 1L as a separate sale item BUT you will only get TMCC functionality out of the Legacy engines. The 99% figure given above is inaccurate IMO as the Legacy features are above and beyond the TMCC features in sound and control.  

 

 You only need a Lionel command base if you are planning on using the MTH DCS handheld to control Legacy, but since Lionel does not sell the command base separately, you're going to be buying the whole system in any case.

I cannot/will say what percentage of functionality you get running Legacy w/ TMCC functionality. But I can say this, you get 0% of MTH DCS functionality with the Lionel Legacy Command Control System.

My vote is for a Base 1L with a cable connecting it to the MTH TIU. Cab2 remotes are very nice. However I do prefer the MTH DCS Remote to the Cab1L. 

I use both DCS and Legacy. Both function perfectly. I use the DCS remote for DCS and the Legacy remote for Legacy. Each does exactly what it is supposed to do. For the life of me, I don't understand why anyone would have difficulty holding one remote or the other. I throw switches with a panel and everything works. Why choose one system when you can have the best of both? 

I run both systems with engines from both on the same loop.  I have not tried the WIFI where the MTH appears to run most if not all of the Legacy features on a Legacy engine and I utilize both the MTH and Lionel handhelds.  I purchase any engine based on the features associated with the engine and not the command system.  I started originally with conventional for 45 years, then Kline TMCC.  I added DCS because of the "ALL" command where I could start up 3 or 4 consists on the same loop with one handheld and one start command. With 4 consists, I would place the fastest consists followed by slower ones until I got to the slowest.  When Legacy came out with the Big Boy, I started purchasing Legacy engines which I would utilize as the 3rd or 4th consist on a loop using the CAB2 remote to sequence with the MTH consists started with the "ALL" command.  I found that within the range of speeds I normally run my consists, 10-25 smph, I would have 3 speed steps for each MTH smph.  This permitted better synchronization for multiple consists than even two MTH consists where 15 smph could be 14 or 16 smph.  As others have said, pick the engine you want and then you know which command system to utilize.

Can’t get Lionel Acela to work on mth premium app.

here are my connections