Lionel Santa Fe F3 Powered A and Powered B Lashup Problem

There was a Video posted here  on the forum from Lionel with this exact problem not too long ago..... I'm sure you can find it on Lionel's web site.... It explains how to set the stall speed and other things as well. Do both units have AC or DC motors?. AC motors seem to be more forgiving if the speeds are off a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3HmEZ_qw5Y 

Give this one a watch, Good luck

Gregg posted:

Give this one a watch, Good luck

Gregg;

Thanks for the lead. I don't know if the two units have AC or DC motors - I truly am a techno-peasant!!! The stats on each unit states that they have "Dual powerful maintenance-free motors with momentum flywheels" - not sure if that helps.

I must say, I have never KNOWINGLY messed with any of the settings mentioned in the video, but I'll give the stall a try when I get home on Saturday. I assume that Mike R.'s instructions will work on my Cab-2.

Thanks again.

Apples55 posted:

I have a Lionel Santa Fe A-B-B-A TMCC lashup that is causing me grief. It is made up of an A-B-A set (6-14588 from around 2005 where the powered A unit is 6-14589) and an additional powered B unit (6-24516 from around 2003). Either powered unit by itself runs fine, but when they are run together, there is a high pitched whine and a slight odor of something burning. When placed on the same track a couple of feet apart, they both work as expected, but the powered A is noticeably faster than the B (in forward as well as reverse). I am assuming that the speed differential is what is causing the issue. Is there anything I can do to get the speeds of two units in sync???

Thanks.

I have exactly the same set-up and a less serious issue of the same kind you do. There's no smell of burning when the units run together but in my case the powered B starts up and runs faster than the lead engine - I can see it pushing on the coupler of the A unit and when placed apart on the track they do not run at the same speed.  The B unit gradually catches up with the A. They are of course part of a lash-up with the dummy A and B units. 

(BTW, I can't guess what is causing the smell but I'd imagine it might be a traction tire getting worn down or one of the motors being overworked. The latter is much worse than the former.)

Both engines have DC can motors (as you can see by looking at the replacement parts diagrams on lionelsupport.com) and are Odyssey equipped. I have tried what Mike Reagan recommends about setting stall speeds/momentum but the engines are still not in perfect synch afterwards. I wondered about turning Odyssey off as I find the early version of it a little problematic but have not tried that yet. 

In your case the two powered engines seem to be badly out of synch and I would have thought that ensuring they have the same stall/momentum settings could make their operation tolerable. However I have taken to running the original 6-14588 set on its own as it pulls the GGD Santa Fe cars I have with no trouble.

Gregg,

I have over 20 of these units in different road names and I have found a couple of root causes that take some bit of work on your end.  first flip the units over and verify they are made similar to each other. All F3 units around 2003 time frame had all axles geared and driven. Later releases in 2005 had only one axle powered. Note that you are not mixing the types together. I think 2005 releases where F-7's not F3s. Also the worm diameter off of the DC motor is different between these years as well so MUing them together will not work.

Next inspect the trucks for any metal foreign matter getting into the gears. These earlier units had magni-traction and are prone to picking up metal particles and jamming up the gears in the trucks.  cleaning these trucks out of all grease and hair is not for the faint of heart either.

If you are still convinced that these are similar makes with similar gears and worms. Lionel had a rash of problems with the earlier release of F3's with TMCC motors. I have pin pointed it to the motor bushings... if you pop the shell off you will see one motor working harder than the other appears to bind. I have traced it to the actual motor binding in the housing.

I tried GENTLY tapping on the shaft to seat the motor in its bushing and noticed that it works for all about one lap around the layout. if you pull the motor out you can also feel it has high friction forces as you try to spin it.

Worse part of this is Lionel does not have parts for the sensor board assembly with flywheel with the proper worm diameter. You have to either pull the worm off the old and place on the new part number or build one from a dummy motor with the proper worm motor already installed.

All the SKUs the OP gives match mine and they are all F3s although I notice from the parts diagram that the later engine has some internal parts that are designated F7.

But in any case, having looked at the replacement parts in detail you are of course absolutely right about the different worm gear diameters - the powered B unit is .354 whereas the later powered A is .326. I guess that means that their speeds under the same level of power will inevitably be different. Bummer, man, unless there's some method of adjusting for this?

I noticed the problem with the first F3's I bought with TMCC. Even when new the two powered units never ran at the same speed causing hesitation, derailing, etc. They ran fine on they're own but never together. 

I Would avoid using two powered units on the TMCC units, legacy today don't have that problem. 

Hancock52 posted:

All the SKUs the OP gives match mine and they are all F3s although I notice from the parts diagram that the later engine has some internal parts that are designated F7.

But in any case, having looked at the replacement parts in detail you are of course absolutely right about the different worm gear diameters - the powered B unit is .354 whereas the later powered A is .326. I guess that means that their speeds under the same level of power will inevitably be different. Bummer, man, unless there's some method of adjusting for this?

yes, I could not remember the diameter worm differences... still have 6 new motor assemblies on my work table that when I work up the nerve will heat off the .354 worms and slide on the .326's ... hopefully w/o damaging the odyssey boards, motor, or magnet...  and No they will never run together nicely with the different gears....

I know it can be done!

https://video.search.yahoo.com...art=mozilla&tt=b

J Daddy posted:

yes, I could not remember the diameter worm differences... still have 6 new motor assemblies on my work table that when I work up the nerve will heat off the .354 worms and slide on the .326's ... hopefully w/o damaging the odyssey boards, motor, or magnet...  and No they will never run together nicely with the different gears....

I know it can be done!

https://video.search.yahoo.com...art=mozilla&tt=b

Well, if you do it I'd be interested to know how it goes. I can't say that I'd be enthusiastic about trying it myself as the motor trucks look quite a bit different judging by the replacement parts photos and there's no "lazy" (but certainly not cheap) option to substitute 2005 F3 trucks on the 2003 B unit because Lionel doesn't have any in stock. 

Anyway, they're bound to make a die cast F3 A-B-B-A Warbonnet set with all four units powered, close coupling and multiple speakers as the next Vision Line diesel, aren't they? So we'll all be drooling over that rather than fixing our existing models, won't we?

Hancock52 posted:

J Daddy posted:

yes, I could not remember the diameter worm differences... still have 6 new motor assemblies on my work table that when I work up the nerve will heat off the .354 worms and slide on the .326's ... hopefully w/o damaging the odyssey boards, motor, or magnet...  and No they will never run together nicely with the different gears....

I know it can be done!

https://video.search.yahoo.com...art=mozilla&tt=b

Well, if you do it I'd be interested to know how it goes. I can't say that I'd be enthusiastic about trying it myself as the motor trucks look quite a bit different judging by the replacement parts photos and there's no "lazy" (but certainly not cheap) option to substitute 2005 F3 trucks on the 2003 B unit because Lionel doesn't have any in stock. 

Anyway, they're bound to make a die cast F3 A-B-B-A Warbonnet set with all four units powered, close coupling and multiple speakers as the next Vision Line diesel, aren't they? So we'll all be drooling over that rather than fixing our existing models, won't we?

Its going to make a great 40 dollar science experiment! 

One can hope but I doubt I could afford the Vision Line A-B-B-A. Especially, in regards to replacing the 5 sets I have...

Well, maybe this week-end I will muster up some time and fire up the propane torch.  

Well, finally got a chance to take a close look at the gears on my powered A and B units and, as has been mentioned, the gears are different sizes. I would never try to change the gears, so I guess I will switch from an A-B-B-A to a pair of A-B's - just have to be careful with the powered B starting in reverse.

Thanks for everyone's assistance.