Lionel Scout Motor Slugging

If the electrical end of things look good to your eye, maybe there's a mechanical issue. Is there a lot of slop in the axle bushings? If there seems to be, then maybe the backs of the wheels are contacting the frame, requiring the extra voltage to get rolling?

When I encountered electrical issues that made me crazy, a friend recommended Robert Hannon's book, J.L. Cowen's Postwar Lionel Trains,  0-Gauge Reference manual 1. It lists most of the electrical values of coils, armatures, and field windings and gives a concise lesson on how to test them. Short circuits, open circuits, and resistance values. Book can be found here: http://www.trainrefs.com.

There are 2 manuals. The one mentioned above covers engines, while the 2nd. one covers motorized units rolling stock and accessories.  The books along with a decent ( and cheap) ohm meter should help with electrical trouble shooting. I have both copies, and highly recommend them.

The plastic Scout motor does not have the best reputation. Supposedly Lionel Service did not recommend fixing a plastic motor but to replace it with a 2034 motor. Here is a link to a good guide to troubleshooting them.

https://dfarq.homeip.net/basic...-lionel-scout-motor/

I would love to help, but I don't mess with those.  As Iguanaman said, the metal 4-wheel motor chassis used in the 2034, 1130, and 250 will bolt right in.  The metal cab from a 239 is a nice upgrade too.  But if you change the head and the handle, is it still your grandfather's axe?  :-)

@iguanaman3 posted:

The plastic Scout motor does not have the best reputation. Supposedly Lionel Service did not recommend fixing a plastic motor but to replace it with a 2034 motor. Here is a link to a good guide to troubleshooting them.

https://dfarq.homeip.net/basic...-lionel-scout-motor/

Thanks Iguanaman3. I also found this Warren Muzak youtube video - which was very helpful.

https://youtu.be/76taiSLKAPY

The scout motor isn't as hard to work on as I thought it would be - at least mine wasn't. As long as you have a wheel puller.

@Ted S posted:

I would love to help, but I don't mess with those.  As Iguanaman said, the metal 4-wheel motor chassis used in the 2034, 1130, and 250 will bolt right in.  The metal cab from a 239 is a nice upgrade too.  But if you change the head and the handle, is it still your grandfather's axe?  :-)

I have an 1130. It is one my favorite Lionel 2-4-2s. It is very easy to work on and very reliable.

@Ed Horan posted:

If the electrical end of things look good to your eye, maybe there's a mechanical issue. Is there a lot of slop in the axle bushings? If there seems to be, then maybe the backs of the wheels are contacting the frame, requiring the extra voltage to get rolling?

When I encountered electrical issues that made me crazy, a friend recommended Robert Hannon's book, J.L. Cowen's Postwar Lionel Trains,  0-Gauge Reference manual 1. It lists most of the electrical values of coils, armatures, and field windings and gives a concise lesson on how to test them. Short circuits, open circuits, and resistance values. Book can be found here: http://www.trainrefs.com.

There are 2 manuals. The one mentioned above covers engines, while the 2nd. one covers motorized units rolling stock and accessories.  The books along with a decent ( and cheap) ohm meter should help with electrical trouble shooting. I have both copies, and highly recommend them.

Thanks Ed. That is very helpful. Does Robert Hannon's volume 1 cover the scout engine?

Yes it does. The first sentence in the chapter on the Scout motors is telling, lol.

If the rotator shafts are getting hot, probably weak brush springs.  

Mike, begin by testing the armature. All 3 segments should have continuity to each other. I have seen engines still attempt to run with one open segment. Also verify the shaft is open, and does NOT have continuity to a segment. ( usually they won’t run with a shaft short to power) . If you find an open segment, inspect its solder lug for a break, or broken winding. Repair if possible. As Chuck says, weak or overheated brush springs, or completely worn out brushes can also give fits. Lastly, a cooked field winding can also give poor performance. Field windings from this era are a nice bright reddish orange color, or a bright burgundy, blackened, or charred looking windings, and your goose might be cooked,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Mike, begin by testing the armature. All 3 segments should have continuity to each other. I have seen engines still attempt to run with one open segment. Also verify the shaft is open, and does NOT have continuity to a segment. ( usually they won’t run with a shaft short to power) . If you find an open segment, inspect its solder lug for a break, or broken winding. Repair if possible. As Chuck says, weak or overheated brush springs, or completely worn out brushes can also give fits. Lastly, a cooked field winding can also give poor performance. Field windings from this era are a nice bright reddish orange color, or a bright burgundy, blackened, or charred looking windings, and your goose might be cooked,…..

Pat

Pat

I did a continuity check on the stator's field windings. One probe was touching the wire going from the field-out to the drum contactor, and the other probe was touching the wire from the roller contact strip to the field-in. I got no reading.

I tested the armature and commutator. The resistance between each section of the commutator was approx 1.3 ohms. There was no reading when I checked for resistance between the commutator sections and the armature shaft.

Under the magnifying glass, I didnt see any broken solder connections.

I am beginning to think that the field windings are the problem.

Here is a picture:

In this picture, the armature has been removed. The stator's moveable field has been removed, and the stationary field and windings are shown.

I think I might try to replace this stationary field. My Greenberg's Manual has the part listed as 1001M-9, and it seems that the part is still available from trainz.com.

The point that you are measuring on the right has varnish insulation on it so you’re not going to read anything from there. Follow the wire to the pick up point where the bare wire is visible. Measure using that point and your other point on the left. Let us know what that reading is.

@Rich Wiemann posted:

The point that you are measuring on the right has varnish insulation on it so you’re not going to read anything from there. Follow the wire to the pick up point where the bare wire is visible. Measure using that point and your other point on the left. Let us know what that reading is.

Rich

Thank you for catching that. I moved the probe touch points. I touched the drum contact plate and I touched the roller contact strip. Between these points my resistance reading was 1.2 ohms.

So now I am back to square one. Trying to determine the source of the problem.

Mike

I once again cleaned the wheels and all of the ground connections, reassembled the motor, and bench tested it. The e-unit seemed to work better when I had the motor running on the bench, but when I ran it on the track, and turned the power off, it would stall rather than reverse upon the resumption of power. I have a short video that shows the slugging of the motor. Once again, the e-unit gear shaft stubs got very hot. I am not sure - but maybe the springs and brushes need to be replaced? The springs appear to be OK, and I keep cleaning the brushes but they keep getting fouled along with the commutator face from the electrical problems.

Lionel made several versions of the scout motor, I see this one is not the latest. What specific model number is it?

Mike, this don’t sound like an electrical problem, I definitely hear what sounds like dry bearings!!…..oil that armature shaft more!!….also the gear and gear shaft!!….she needs some lube buddy!!

Pat

Just saw your vid. You forgot to oil it when it was apart! Remove the drum cover and a drop of light oil on both sides of the armature shaft and a drop between the axle and Bakelite axle shaft.

A little more lubrication helped stop the slugging - but the e-unit is still unreliable. I included a couple of pictures of the e-unit. There seems to be some sort of a configuration problem.

Picture 001 shows the top drum contactor making contact with brass drum segments on both the right hand drum and the left hand drum. Likewise for the bottom drum contactor. In this configuration it seems that power would be applied to both motor brushes at the same time?

Picture 002 shows a slightly different drum arrangement where I rearranged the drums so that both of the drum dimples are approximately at the 3 o'clock position. Now it looks like we have the upper drum contactor making contact with a brass segment on the right drum and a green segment on the left drum. Vice versa for the lower drum contactor. Now it looks like power will be applied to the right drum and the path to ground will be provided by the left drum.  After doing this, I put the motor back on the track - but the e-unit is still causing stalls.

The Lionel scout service pages from Greenberg's mentions that scout motors from 1950 had slightly deformed pawls, unduly strong pawl springs, and burrs on the plastic drums. These defects caused the e-unit to operate erratically. The service pages also recommend replacing these items.

Tomorrow, I will remove these pieces and post some pictures of them.

The words Scout & unreliable go hand in hand, ……I believe if you look the words up in Websters, they both say: see also ………😉

Pat

Pardon my laughter, but I wrestled with one of those about 15 years ago!  What a giant PITA, never did get 100% reliable E-unit operation.  That whole swiveling field piece was a nightmare to get right I suspect!  I finally sold it for peanuts and warned the buyer what he was getting.  I never looked back and I've never worked on another one, and I seriously doubt I ever will!

The bottom picture is the correct configuration. When you push down on the fiber lever on top, you should see the pawl come down and rotate the drum one cycle. Moving the lever back, it should retract back up. Also, you never said what model you have. Does it have brass roller, or powered metal ones? This makes a big difference. On these engines, you need to 'spike' the power upon starting, then turn it down. If you turn the voltage up too slowly, it won't cycle the drums fast enough and will stall the loco with the headlight on bright. In that case operate the 'reset' switch as I call it on top. Later versions of this motor had a ground strap that rided on the trailing truck tang, which yours does not have.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

The bottom picture is the correct configuration. When you push down on the fiber lever on top, you should see the pawl come down and rotate the drum one cycle. Moving the lever back, it should retract back up. Also, you never said what model you have. Does it have brass roller, or powered metal ones? This makes a big difference. On these engines, you need to 'spike' the power upon starting, then turn it down. If you turn the voltage up too slowly, it won't cycle the drums fast enough and will stall the loco with the headlight on bright. In that case operate the 'reset' switch as I call it on top. Later versions of this motor had a ground strap that rided on the trailing truck tang, which yours does not have.

Chuck

The Scout motor is from a Lionel 1110 locomotive. I believe it was made in the 1951-52 timeframe. It has the rear truck with the ground strap that stays in contact with the rear truck bracket underneath the cab (or footplate). The contact rollers appear to be brass cylinders that are roll-formed from a flat plate, because they have a longitudinal seam.

Mike

One thing you can do is replace the brass rolled pick-up rollers with the later metal pick-ups, places like Train Tender should have them, 1862 General rollers will work also.

I reinstalled the scout motor in the Lionel 1110 locomotive, and got it running probably as good as it's going to get for now. This is what it looks like:

I put it on the track and did some testing.

So, first let me describe some salient mechanical/electrical features of the locomotive. It has a diecast body and it weighs 1 lb 9.2 oz. The locomotive has the plastic-bodied scout motor. The gear ratio is 7.88 to 1. I was able to determine this by opening up the plastic body, counting the gear teeth, and doing the math.

I bench tested the locomotive at 13.5 VAC output from the transformer and measured the drive wheel rotational speed using a Cen Tech digital photo sensor tachometer. The drive wheel rpm was in the range of 505 - 600 rpm. So, for purposes of my calculations I used an average value of 550 rpm. Since I don't have the ability to directly measure the rotational speed of the motor, and since the Scout motor has a gear ratio of 7.88 to 1, I calculated a motor rpm equal to 4,336.

Now let me describe the test rig. I have a loop of 0-31 gauge tubular track, and the total center-rail length is 13.4434'. I have a 275 watt Lionel ZW transformer, and I have power applied in two separate equidistant points along the line. I have a digital multimeter to monitor the track voltage. I used a lock-on to connect the red and black probes. I have an inexpensive clamp-style amp meter to monitor the amperage from the hot wire between the transformer and the track. I also have a 10 turn loop in this hot wire to improve the accuracy of the amp readings. For the time trial, I used the stopwatch feature of my Android phone, and timed the train over 5 laps. I tested just the locomotive at discrete 1 volt increments from 7 to 11 volts AC. Outside of this band, the locomotive either would not move or would move so fast I was afraid that I'd derail and damage it. I then connected a tender, three freight cars, and a caboose and repeated the time trials at 9 through 13 VAC.  Again, the train would not move at less than 9 VAC, and would run too fast beyond 13 VAC. Below is the velocity calculations and amp draw:

Without Cars

With 5 Cars

Note that  at 9 VAC, the locomotive alone was running at 61.7 MPH (scale), drawing 1.25 amps, 11.25 watts. When I attached the cars to the locomotive and ran it at 9 VAC, it slowed down to 28.4 MPH (scale) drawing 1.3 amps and 11.7 watts. One thing I should point out is that my amp readings would usually spike when the locomotive was on the curve sections, so my amp readings are sort of a composite.  I also bench tested the locomotive at 9 VAC, and it was drawing 0.9 amps and 8.1 watts. So, I prepared a pie chart showing the power profile at 9 VAC. As you can see, the majority of the power was consumed by mechanical & electrical inefficiencies and just moving the weight of the locomotive. Only a small fraction of the total power was consumed by pulling the cars.

Here is a short video clip of the Lionel 1110 pulling five cars with an applied voltage of 9 VAC.

The operation is noisy and somewhat quirky - although it is not slugging as bad as it was when I originally made this posting to the forum. Chuck Sartor and Pat Norcross recognized right away that this Scout motor needed more lubrication when they saw my original video posting. The first time I opened up the motor, most of the moving parts were packed with thick grease - which took some time to clean out. There was still residual grease in the plastic bushings - but apparently, that still wasn't enough lubrication. So I added a few drops of light oil to all of the moving parts. That got rid of most of the slugging. The bakelite motor housing had some cracked sections that I repaired with JB Weld.  The e-unit works, but not consistently, and sometimes the locomotive stalls when I try to start it from a dead stop. Usually I give it a little push and then restart it. So, I still have some problems to work out.  The locomotive was given to me by Pat Norcross of Harmon Yards - thanks so much Pat. This was a fun project.

@Mossback Mike posted:

The locomotive was given to me by Pat Norcross of Harmon Yards - thanks so much Pat. This was a fun project.

That Pat, a real sadist!   He knew exactly what he was giving you!

I never even set it on the track!…..I’m as innocent as the driven snow!…..( if you believe that, I’ve got some scout motors to sell y’all )

Mike, if you’re having to push start it, and then it goes, the pivoting field stack is too far away from the armature to make a field effective enough to propel itself,…..obviously if you push it, inertia is enough to catch the next segment and keep the armature spinning, ….so more than likely, your field is weak, because the gapping is too big for whatever reason……..I think I’ve mentioned this before, but when a Scout became problematic for a customer, we’d lock up the pivoting field stack, make it run forward, toss the lever in the trash, then they’d run like scalded dogs….

Pat

Pat

So I should remove the reverse lever and lock the moveable field piece into a position that is closer to the armature? Would that mean fasten some sort of a wedge in between the bakelite boss and the moveable field piece? Should I leave the pawl and pawl spring in-place? I suppose I'll have to make sure that this get's locked in so the train runs forward? How will I know that?

Mike

Yep, temporarily wedge whatever in the field and draw it towards the armature, ……then manually index the drums to find forward,…..usually I’d get the engine running forward, via the lever, disconnect power, and open the side cover, and mark the drum gears with a silver sharpie or whatever so I knew where the “timing marks” were,…..if you stop it in forward, they should stay put then jam the floating field,……..I believe I’ve seen dad put a small pad of material on the floating field one time and that made the lever push the floater closer to the armature too,…..but he only did that on one, after that, it was lock them up in forward, and send em’ down the road,…..😉

Pat

Mike, also look for carbon arcing where I drew the arrow,…..the connection relies on it just resting against one another, …..I have seen them quit running because of carbon tracking at that point …..you’re taxing my memory on these things,…..we worked on these things 30 some odd years ago,……😬

Pat

I wonder if getting it running well in one direction and then treating it to a real E-Unit might be the answer?

@harmonyards posted:

Mike, also look for carbon arcing where I drew the arrow,…..the connection relies on it just resting against one another, …..I have seen them quit running because of carbon tracking at that point …..you’re taxing my memory on these things,…..we worked on these things 30 some odd years ago,……

Pat

The interface between the stationary and moveable field was pretty clean when I initially took it apart - but I cleaned it again before I reassembled it.

Mike

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I wonder if getting it running well in one direction and then treating it to a real E-Unit might be the answer?

How would I do that?

@Mossback Mike posted:

How would I do that?

Small Dallee reverser board, tuck it up in the shell somewhere, ……make wire leads that come out of the motor, and connect them to the reverser board,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Small Dallee reverser board, tuck it up in the shell somewhere, ……make wire leads that come out of the motor, and connect them to the reverser board,…..

Pat

I think it would be a fun project to use a DPDT switch to run the locomotive either forward or backward. I would mount a small DPDT switch with a 4-pin connector in a tender, and wiring would link up with the locomotive. I made a little wiring diagram of something I am planning to do with my Marx 333 - which does not have an e-unit. It's on my to-do list.

This is a post mortem on the scout engine with the malfunctioning reversing unit. I replaced every replaceable component involving the reversing unit. I replaced the brushes, the brush springs, the rotating drums, the drum contactors. I replaced the pawl spring, and the copper contact rollers. I recleaned the contact area between the moveable and stationary field. To no avail. The reversing unit is still working inconsistently - and when it stalls, I open the cover plate of the e-unit to find the contactors and drums problematically configured as shown in picture 001 above. What I find so perplexing is that I have a Lionel 246 locomotive that was given to me as a Christmas present in 1964 when I was a child, and it has an identical plastic scout motor that still operates flawlessly.

I was so determined to solve this problem - but right now I am out of ideas. The locomotive runs well in forward-only so I suppose that's going to be as good as it gets.

This is another follow-up on the motor stalling problem.

I had the die-cast shell sand-blasted and repainted. I reinstalled the scout motor, and it is running much more reliably. I think that the weight of the diecast shell bearing down on the scout motor's contactors helps to maintain a steady contact with the center rail and prevent power interruptions which would cause spurious reversing. When I am running in one direction only, the operation is very reliable. When I operate with the reversing switch set to allow reversing, occasionally, I will get a motor stall condition. When this happens, I just flip the reversing switch back and forth and this clears the problem. Has anybody else ever had a similar experience?