Lionel tender identification question

I have a Lionel tender that I'm not able to identify in any of the postwar era books or catalogs that I have.  It's a large streamlined tender lettered Pennsylvania in gold leaf on the side.  Molded into the tender on the lower right side of the rear end is 2671W-6.  There is no whistle in it and the mounting holes look like they have never been used.  It has a cheap looking plastic dummy coupler.

 I can't find this tender among the many sold 2671 listings on eBay.  Can someone tell me anything about this tender. 

Original Post
Chuck Sartor posted:

Are you sure? I have never seen a 6 wheel truck with a dummy plastic coupler.

I'm looking at it right now and seeing six wheel trucks with a dummy coupler attached to one of them.   I took the body off and don''t see the kind of scratches I would expect if someone replaced the trucks.  Oddly, one is attached with a horseshoe clip and the other with a C ring.

Could we have discovered an unknown variation ?

Here are some photos

DSCF1651DSCF1653DSCF1655DSCF1659

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mlaughlinnyc posted:

Thanks for all of the input on this one.Here's what I'm thinking to call it for my eBay lisitng.

O Gauge Pennsylvania Streamlined Tender - MPC 2671W-6 body with Williams six wheel trucks.

Does that sound about right ?

 

No. I don't know the part number of the body off the top of my head, but it is not 2671w-6. Better to leave off the number, rather than give wrong information.

I would mention the gold lettering because sometimes its hard to tell in a photo. 

I don't think you want complaints.

C.W. Burfle

Well this is an interesting combination of information.

C W Burfle posted:

Found some notes. Your shell is part number 8304T-7.

Thanks Mr. Burtle.  What does that part number tell us about date and place of manufacture ?  I took the shell off the tender and can't find that number in it.  The only identifying number is 2671W-6, which is in that small rectangle on the lower right corner of the rear end.

BTW, I maintain a state of deliberate ignorance about 1970 and later - 1945 to 1949 is enough to get my mind around.  At times I accidenatally acquire a piece from that era that I want to turn into money.

Someone asked about a whistle.  No whistle and not a scratch in the paint around the whistle mounting holes that might indicate there had been one.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

Thanks for all of the input on this one.Here's what I'm thinking to call it for my eBay lisitng.

O Gauge Pennsylvania Streamlined Tender - MPC 2671W-6 body with Williams six wheel trucks.

Does that sound about right ?

 


In regard to the Williams trucks.  Did they make a truck that was identical to the old Lionel trucks for the Pullmans and the 2671W ?  How could they get away with copying Lionel so closely ?  I've just spent 20 minutes comparing trucks on the suject tender with my 2671W from 1948-49 and with the Pullman car Manhattan.  I even compsred several measeurements with the precision dividers from my drawing set.  I can find not the smallest difference in the plastic sideframes or wheels from all three kinds of trucks.

Thanks Mr. Burtle.  What does that part number tell us about date and place of manufacture ?  I took the shell off the tender and can't find that number in it.  The only identifying number is 2671W-6, which is in that small rectangle on the lower right corner of the rear end.

When? - that was already answered above. It's from the 1974 4-4-2 Broadway limited set. 
As you discovered, the shell is not marked. The information is found in the Lionel service manual (modern era). It is available online at the Lionel customer service site.

The 2671W marking is from the original use of the mold, for the 2671W tender, which came with the 671 turbine. I think it was 1948 or 1949, I'd have to check a reference book. (wrong)

I had notes on the part number because I had several NOS shells a while ago.

C.W. Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

Thanks Mr. Burtle.  What does that part number tell us about date and place of manufacture ?  I took the shell off the tender and can't find that number in it.  The only identifying number is 2671W-6, which is in that small rectangle on the lower right corner of the rear end.

When? - that was already answered above. It's from the 1974 4-4-2 Broadway limited set. 
As you discovered, the shell is not marked. The information is found in the Lionel service manual (modern era). It is available online at the Lionel customer service site.

The 2671W marking is from the original use of the mold, for the 2671W tender, which came with the 671 turbine. I think it was 1948 or 1949, I'd have to check a reference book.

I had notes on the part number because I had several NOS shells a while ago.

The mark on the ouitside of the shell was not on the original 2671W shell.  I have a couple of them in front of me now.  They are stamped 2671W on the bottom.  I suppose that the -6 on the number molded on the outside of the shell tells us that it is the MPC version.

I'm interested in the 2671W-6 inscription appearance in the number box. I don't believe I've seen an original 2671W(X) or 2046 have the number board filled. I've seen a few 736W that go either way, but I'm not sure if there is a correlation to Pennsylvania markings or New York Central...

The RGW and MPC and such onwards have the 2671W-6 lettering in the number board on the rear.

Thanks to everyone for the input to an interesting conversation - hope to hear still from someone on the Williams truck question.

Here is how I'm describing it on eBay in an auction that will begin this evening and end on 5/06.  I think this covers all of the points of discussion.

""Streamlined Pennsylvania tender, 1974 MPC shell with six wheel trucks"

Description  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very good looking Pennsylvania Railroad tender with gold leaf lettering.   It has the type of shell that was sold as part of the Broadway Limited trains from MPC in 1974.  

While photos of the Broadway Limited set show what looks like a four wheel freight truck, this tender has more realistic six wheel trucks.  They are identical to the trucks on Lionel's 2761W and the Irvington style Pullmans.  The trailing truck has a dummy coupler.
 
The shell is identical in detail to the 2671W except that the rectangle on the lower right of the rear end has molded into it "2671W-6", and it has gold leaf lettering rather than the white lettering on the Lionel tender.
 
This tender would look great behind a Lionel 671, 2020 or 681, or a model of the PRR T-1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I believe the numberbox on the rear of the tender with a number in it was first used with the 1972 8206 4-6-4. The original body mold number was 2671W-5 in the postwar world. When MPC got a hold of the die used to make the shell they modified it to close the open air intake below the rear of the coal pile, and add posts and pegs inside to support the speaker baffle for the SOS/whistle speaker. So the die being modified now made -6 suffex. The number in the box was added their by the toolmaker who probably thought it would 'dress it up' a bit.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

In regard to the Williams trucks.  Did they make a truck that was identical to the old Lionel trucks for the Pullmans and the 2671W ?  How could they get away with copying Lionel so closely ?  I've just spent 20 minutes comparing trucks on the suject tender with my 2671W from 1948-49 and with the Pullman car Manhattan.  I even compsred several measeurements with the precision dividers from my drawing set.  I can find not the smallest difference in the plastic sideframes or wheels from all three kinds of trucks.

Check out the products made by "Williams Reproductions Limited" to get idea of how much the company copied Lionel items.

The name alone kind of gives an indication of the kind of work they did.  Like how "grilled cheese sandwich" tells you what it is and how to make it.

Those truck bolsters have Williams written all over them(figuratively)... and they may actually be stamped "WRL" someplace on them.

Rob

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