Lionel Trucks issue

Hi Michael,

I ran into these very same issues (this past weekend as a matter of fact  ) while converting some (or should I say ‘all’ (I have 4 or them) of the original 4 Door 86’ cars (the later run 86’ cars that I have with the 8 doors did not have this issue).  It seems the original truck assembler at the Lionel factory used a screw gun with a torque setting that was too high.  I have not contacted Lionel but knew of the soldering iron trick and it did help loosen the screws that would not budge.  However,  I have found that many, if not all, of the screws that did not come easily were stripped on the screw threads along with the threaded holes in the side frames (the side frames are just Zamak, so they, of course, are really soft too), hence the difficulty of removing them in the first place .  The material that these Lionel truck side frame fastening screws are made out of are a very, very mild steel (I am using the term “steel” very loosely ), so the phillips slots don't hold up to much torque either.  With some fiddling (sometimes ‘a lot’ of fiddling), I was able to get all the screws out of my truck side frames; sometimes had to put a flat-bladed screwdriver under the heads of the screws that spun but did not back out all the way.    

The reassembly proved just as difficult as disassembly.  The stripped screws/holes made straight reassembly – even with new 2.5 MM screws that I had on hand – pointless  as the bolster would pop right back off the side frame.  Therefore, I found that I could re-tap the stripped out holes in the truck side frames for larger 3.0 MM screws and this permitted salvaging the trucks.  However, the screw heads on these larger 3.0 MM screws are too large to recess down below the top of the truck side frame so I had to turn down the diameter of the new 3.0 MM screw heads using my little lathe and then I was back in business.  Maybe Lionel will work with you and provide replacement trucks otherwise you are in for a "real treat".    

 Scott K.

Austin, TX

Hi,

I don't know anything about Lionel but I have used "Liquid Wrench" to loosen screws that refuse to come out.  I put a drop around the screw head and leave it for a few hours or overnight.  Then the screw comes out easily.

Hope this helps.

Ed

Drill them out, and re-tap the holes.  I use almost exclusively alloy socket-head screws from Micro Fasteners.

If you can get left-handed drills, they may act as "easy-outs" and back the screw out.  Probably not worth looking for them.  A reasonable drill press ($50 from Harbor Freight) and good cutting oil (yellow can from Ace Hardware) will help immensely.

The problem with those screws is that they were designed for one-time use.  They are self-tapping.  Not at all good for disassembly.

First: Cut a slot with a dremel in the screw head and use a flat blade screwdriver.

Then : If you can't fit a second screwdriver blade under the screw head to lift as you turn, wedge a knife blade under the screw head instead.

Ah....I will try the slot idea and see what happens.  thanks

I was converting the last of my Lionel 86' High Cube cars to 2-rail this weekend and I think I discovered the issue with the truck side frame screws that are difficult to remove.  Only one of the two trucks on this last car had screws that were difficult to remove.  This time I looked more closely at one of those difficult screws after I was able to remove it and found that the screw threads were filled with a red colored thread locker.  Red thread locker is basically designed as permanent type thread locker and the only way to break the bond is with high heat.  This would also correlate with the original poster's comment that Lionel told him to use a soldering iron to try and help loosen the screw.  Apparently, the factory used red thread locker on some of the truck side frame screws (maybe the screw holes in the truck sideframe casting ended up a little oversize so thread sealer was added) and heat is the only real solution for removing these screws without chowdering up the threads.  In the case of the difficult screw above, the thread in the soft Zamak side frame was completely gone because I did not use heat as the screw would spin using a phillips screwdriver.  Upon examening the removed screw profile I found it was completely smooth due to the thread sealer filling the gap between the threads.  This is another job for retrofitting with the 3.0 MM screws.  I hope this was the only run of cars that Lionel did this trick on as it really slows down an already tedious project.

Scott K.

Austin, TX

Red on a 3mm? In zymac? That's pretty permanent. Talk about overkill; you could use it just on the head and it wouldn't go anywhere.

Heat doesn't always have to be intense though, some just take time to become gooey.

And an FYI,  Red lockers vary a lot more than blue. Being red is no guarantee of a hard set. You need to know what mfg. number to apply for a situation.

In general, once cuured, the "candy" looking stuff is the pita. If it looks opaque it may just get extreamy gooey but remain that way at all temps.

Always try blue first on a train. If you move to candy red, try just the head, or just 2 or 3 threads under the head max..

All 3 of my 86' box cars had a thread locker on the truck screws. Was a bear to get them out and I ended up taking the cars completely apart to get them out. Not sure who's brilliant idea that was.

I first encountered Lionel's "new" style trucks (pictured above) only one year ago, while converting newly received cattle cars to Kadee couplers.  Rather than follow LAIDOFFSICK's advice by cutting off the offending pieces in place, I decided to take the trucks apart in order to do the surgery... BIG MISTAKE!

While disassembling the trucks, I had a heck of a time removing the screws that attach the sideframes to the piece of junk that now passes for a bolster.  During the process, I thought I noted a difference in size between some of those screws and, accordingly, tried to keep the right screws with the right side frames but somewhere in the process I failed.  During reassembly I learned quite dramatically that the screws were of different sizes and buggered up several heads 'n' threads before I was done.  And for this they want $79.99?

Lionel makes some beautiful equipment and has come up with some great inventions, such as the Kinematic coupler systems, but the "new" freight trucks stink.  In case Lionel has forgotten what a real freight truck looks like, here's one - note the beefy cast bolster:

The new 2017 catalog photographs show what appears to be another entirely new design...  If so, thank you!  If not, Hello Atlas/MTH!

Well the heat from the soldering gun worked on the two that would not move.  I used the Drexel to cut a slot in the screw heads on all three and popped them up with another flat head screw.  So now should I be looking for 2.5 mm screws or 3.0mm screws.

thanks

Just a cautionary note about screwdrivers.  Saw the reference to the "Phillips" screws.  Once had a lot of Phillips screw drivers from the old Sears.  They all came to a sharp point, and were engraved with the Phillips patent numbers (or patent pending?)  But I had to blunt all the points to get a tight fit, because I never saw a Phillips? screwhead that didn't have a flat area at the bottom of the recess.  Finally got a copy of "Machinery's Handbook."  Had the Phillips standard recess drawn up.  It is flat-bottomed.

Still, there are other similar screws where the fit is not too good still.  Turned to the internet.  Aha! The generic name for such screw heads is "cross-recessed" or some such.  Point is, when I looked further, there were 3 different (each with its own patent, I presume) systems of such screws... at that time.  Who knows, more now?  (I know wood deck screws have gone mad with which screw and driver have the better grip-- each box comes with a pair of its drivers.)  Sadly, I have lost my bookmark, but it's out there.

As for screw drivers, I'd avoid the pretty ones with chrome plating.  Chrome is very hard, and makes a hard surface for poor steel, and slippery.  Rust-proofs it too, until it deforms under hard work and flakes off.  Try to find some alloy steel drivers, unplated.  Baltimore Tool used to make some real tools.  Hope they are still in business-- found their stuff at hardware stores that catered to farmers. not city slickers.

Lionel diagrams used to refer to "posidrive" screws... or was it "pozidrive"?  Don't know if that was one of the three systems I found (for machine screws).  The Handbook used generic descriptions: Class 1, 2, or 3.  Well, on Federal jobs you must avoid the dread "proprietary" by name spec.

I did note with interest that in the picture above, the 4 slots have parallel sides.  Other classes have sides that taper inward as you go out.  Some slots get narrower as you go down.  Others do both.  Or neither.  And then there is the dreaded conic angle.  Back when, the English liked different conic angles than the Americans, so there are two choices... Did you know that metric standards for dimensions are actually managed here in the US by our technical associations, for the entire world?  Yes, headquartered right here in sight of the Capitol dome, like any good lobbyist.  In the land of the last people to use inches.

In some late US Lionel production, with the picture layout of parts schematic and parts description list, the screws are dimensioned in US conventional units (inches, ca 1954 Unified standard), but in a used example ("2380" road number series, late 90's... '97 for sure, poss '96 & later... 00?) just obtained, the screws associated with the then new TMCC items in GP-7&9s the screws actually are the closest metric matches, the self-tapping ones, anyway.  A tip... I think the self-tapping (metric?) screws driven into the 4 plastic post corners of the shell are oversized for the holes in these posts, leading to splitting.  You can't get a TCA 10 if you change these screws to what they should have been when replacing a split rear post, of course.  Maybe posidrive screws were only ever metric, like the E-circlips which were invented late, and only have metric sizes, altho typically used on 3/16" motor shafts.  So much to forget... .

In any case, you need a matching screw driver, of the correct size in the series, to avoid the dread single point contact while twisting the driver with a pipe wrench.  Get them with square shanks.  You will also need the heated version, I see.  These are made of that special alloy, "unobtainium."

--Frank

G'day Frank

We had an old Pommie metal shop teacher who insisted that they must be called "turn screws."    "A screw driver, my boy - is a hammer!"

Cheers