LOTS OF NEW AMERICAN FLYER ITEMS IN THE 2018 CATALOG

Well the C&NW Baldwin fits the bill for my narrow focus on S now.  I’ll get the caboose too.  That Wabash caboose is neat looking, I wonder if we will see a locomotive to match it in the V2 catalog.  

Nice to see Legacy steam back! 

I would have thought that Flyer would have had the SD70ACe UP1943.  Guess not this time. 

Ben

Mark, Thanks for the link.  Of note, on pages 200-201, is the Legacy Berk with DCC capability and "separate locomotive handrails!"

Mike A.

I have a couple questions regarding the new Legacy Berks...

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

*** Answered by Dave below ***

jonnyspeed posted:

I have a couple questions regarding the new Legacy Berks...

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

If you don't have usable couplers on both ends it really limits the usefulness of the engine. Also, a lot of people use Kadee couplers. If there is no way to put Kadees on you are effectively limiting the potential customer base. 

My question is how many people want a Legacy Berk but don't care if it only has one AF style coupler? I suppose that will be answered soon by the number of BTOs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the Legacy Berks look an awful lot like FlyerChief Berks with Legacy electronics and wire handrails, particularly with a $499.99 price point. 

I don't think these Berks are going to meet things like the Y3 or even the old Mikado's and Pacific's detail-wise.

Rusty

jonnyspeed posted:

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

 

Scale dummy that's a separate piece like on the O Scale steam. Yes, Kadee pads on tender. Also lots of separate detail parts - handrails, etc etc. Much more than in the FC version.

Dave, the description only mentioned the separate handrails on the locomotive.  Does the tender also have them along with other details not present on the Flyer Chief version?

Thanks, Mike A.

banjoflyer posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

 

My question is how many people want a Legacy Berk but don't care if it only has one AF style coupler? I suppose that will be answered soon by the number of BTOs.

Did the earlier Legacy steam engines have those Kadee coupler features? I suppose it would be more scale oriented to have 2 working couplers front and rear but the AF style electrocoupler on the tender will satisfy the majority of the S gauge crowd I suppose.

Mark

The Challengers, Y3's, along with the U33C's, SD70's and ES44's all came with user-installed Kadee mounting pads.

Rusty

Mikeaa posted:

Dave, the description only mentioned the separate handrails on the locomotive.  Does the tender also have them along with other details not present on the Flyer Chief version?

Thanks, Mike A.

Yes. I'll do a separate post/topic outlining this engine. It'll make it more clear.

Dave Olson posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

 

Scale dummy that's a separate piece like on the O Scale steam. Yes, Kadee pads on tender. Also lots of separate detail parts - handrails, etc etc. Much more than in the FC version.

Thanks Dave. That changes things for me. Literally the difference between ordering 2-4 or zero. While I'm at it...

Will it get proper 4 chuffs per revolution?

I can't get the catalog to open Dave is that because so many people are trying to see it>

Dave

The communication about this is really nice for the S Gauge guys, it’s a big book with a lot of stuff people will be asking about and the vast majority of the conversation is not S obviously.  Thanks for taking the time to communicate with us about this - I’m mean really...catalogue has not been out more than an hour and we have good line of communication on its contents.  

Ben 

Dave Olson posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

 

Scale dummy that's a separate piece like on the O Scale steam. Yes, Kadee pads on tender. Also lots of separate detail parts - handrails, etc etc. Much more than in the FC version.

Dave, perhaps when the dust settles, you can enlighten us as to the added details.

Rusty

Dave Olson posted:

Mikeaa posted:

Dave, the description only mentioned the separate handrails on the locomotive.  Does the tender also have them along with other details not present on the Flyer Chief version?

Thanks, Mike A.

Yes. I'll do a separate post/topic outlining this engine. It'll make it more clear.

Thank you.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I can't get the catalog to open Dave is that because so many people are trying to see it>

.

Rusty

It is encouraging to see that Lionel has introduced another Legacy locomotive and, as promised, upgraded the Berkshires for a very reasonable price. The catalogue descriptions do leave a number of questions that I hope you will answer, Dave.

• The $130 price difference for the Legacy version adds Legacy electronics. Does this also mean that the locomotive will operate on conventional DC as well as AC? The Y-3, SD70ACe, and ES44AC locomotives did.
• The Flyer Chief is $20 more than last year. It appears to also have separate handrails in the pictures, but that may simply be that the same pictures were used for both versions. Do the Flyer Chief versions include separate handrails and engineer and fireman figures, or are they only on the Legacy versions?
• Other possible distinctions may include cab illumination and directional lighting for the Legacy version. These features are not listed under the Flyer Chief features.
• The locomotive measures 11 inches, and the tender is listed as 8 inches. The Flyer Chief Berkshires from 2015 were listed at a total length of 14 inches. Why the difference?

These are, indeed, handsome locomotives. Having Legacy versions with the frequently requested detailing improvements at a very attractive price allays any worries about American Flyer combined with Lionel O gauge in one catalogue. To me this is a very welcome addition to the American Flyer line.

banjoflyer posted:

Well there you go! I completely missed the fact that the first 6 Berks are Legacy!

And at a price of $500.00 MSRP that's way way way below the predicted ~$1000.00 tag for a new Legacy engine from some of the S gauge group!

A note at the bottom of the description of the engines features says they are NOT  Bluetooth equipped.

So for all those waiting patiently for a Legacy Berk (with detailed handrails) this is it!

Mark

If you recall, ahem, someone (won't say who) has tried to let folks know for some time that a Legacy Berk need not cost a king's ransom. 

Bob

Dave Olson posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

1. Does it have an actual scale coupler on the front or is it a dummy molded into the shell?

2. Will there be a Kadee mounting pad on the tender?

 

Scale dummy that's a separate piece like on the O Scale steam. Yes, Kadee pads on tender. Also lots of separate detail parts - handrails, etc etc. Much more than in the FC version.

Barring some unusual surprise, Dave, I'm in!  ... as I promised to you at York.

Thanks!

Bob

Well, Lionel is listening.  Thanks Dave, for awhile I thought I had gone down the wrong side track with S, but with all this kind of material coming out, the Scale should grow (both hi-rail and scale).

Bob Bubeck posted:

banjoflyer posted:

Well there you go! I completely missed the fact that the first 6 Berks are Legacy!

And at a price of $500.00 MSRP that's way way way below the predicted ~$1000.00 tag for a new Legacy engine from some of the S gauge group!

A note at the bottom of the description of the engines features says they are NOT  Bluetooth equipped.

So for all those waiting patiently for a Legacy Berk (with detailed handrails) this is it!

Mark

If you recall, ahem, someone (won't say who) has tried to let folks know for some time that a Legacy Berk need not cost a king's ransom. 

Bob

Depends on the size of your kingdom...

Rusty

While we are asking questions, is there a way to put Kadees on the rolling stock? Any chance you could add Kadee pads Dave? The hoppers don't look too bad. Perhaps worth a look from the Hi-Rail / Scale crowd?

Over all, I think this is a good catalog for the Flyer folks.  Hi-Rail people, maybe.  Scale guys, not really.  But, at least the fantasy stuff is kept to a minimum and the legitimate roadnames are well executed. 

I'm going to wait on Dave's posting about the Legacy Berkshires before making a decision, if there's enough difference to make it a stand out from the FlyerChief version I'll order one.

Rusty

Dave Olson posted:

Mikeaa posted:

Dave, the description only mentioned the separate handrails on the locomotive.  Does the tender also have them along with other details not present on the Flyer Chief version?

Thanks, Mike A.

Yes. I'll do a separate post/topic outlining this engine. It'll make it more clear.

Thanks, Dave.  Looking forward to your post!

If you need a pair of Kadee couplers to try out, let me know.  I'd be happy to send you some.

Mike A.

TOKELLY posted:

• The locomotive measures 11 inches, and the tender is listed as 8 inches. The Flyer Chief Berkshires from 2015 were listed at a total length of 14 inches. Why the difference?

 

It's called a typo.  Pilot to rear coupler, the F/C Berk measures about 19.25 inches long.

Rusty

That's what I figured, Rusty. I didn't have one to measure, so I was wondering which length was correct.  I wasn't planning on a Berkshire, but these Legacy versions are very appealing. My brother and I always jumped on our bikes to race to the road crossing whenever we heard the Nickle Plate locomotives whistle in the distance. It was a thrill to stand near the crossing gates and feel the ground shake as they pounded and thundered by, leaving a gray cloud of sweet/acrid smoke descending on us. It was the most memorable thing that happened on any such lucky day.

I think there is a nice assortment of new products.  For me it looks like I will save money this year.  I am happy with my FlyerChief Berk and don't need a Legacy version.  It is a very good price for the Legacy S unit compared to the O Legacy unit Lionel had at $1,000 or so.  I wonder how they could make it that much cheaper?  Maybe fewer scale details.

The Baldwins with two motors is interesting.  Maybe small motors that they could use in future Geeps?

Congratulations Flyonel!!!! 

Rusty Traque posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

banjoflyer posted:

Well there you go! I completely missed the fact that the first 6 Berks are Legacy!

And at a price of $500.00 MSRP that's way way way below the predicted ~$1000.00 tag for a new Legacy engine from some of the S gauge group!

A note at the bottom of the description of the engines features says they are NOT  Bluetooth equipped.

So for all those waiting patiently for a Legacy Berk (with detailed handrails) this is it!

Mark

If you recall, ahem, someone (won't say who) has tried to let folks know for some time that a Legacy Berk need not cost a king's ransom. 

Bob

Depends on the size of your kingdom...

Rusty

Oh, about the size of a train store. 

Bob

A Legacy Berkshire will definitely be coming to my layout!

What I  find especially interesting is the introduction on the first page of the Flyer offerings which mentions newly tooled cars to add to work trains (which do NOT appear in the catalog) .  Perhaps this was a project that was not ready at the time the catalog was due to come out, or was canceled at the last minute or perhaps this was a complete mistake and was not edited out in the proofreading stage. 

I think some newly tooled product of a realistic protoype would be well recieved,  maybe it will be ready in the fall

LittleTommy

Anyone notice this on the AF introductory page: "Enjoy new Legacy and Flyerchief locomotives along with newly-tooled camp and kitchen cars to add to your work trains."

Rich

What is a camp and kitchen car? I googled that I did not find anything.  Makes me think of something from Hell On Wheels. 

Ben

I missed the answer if it will be a four chuff system.  I sure hope so.

I have done several TMCC conversions of the Berks and they are AWESOME. Great pullers!

Glad to see Lionel has seen the full potential if these fine locos. I wonder if they saw my Berkshire  videos?

Carl

On page 194 items D and E are Sensor Track items for NON-Fastrack.  I know some people here have cut up O Gauge Sensor track and installed it on S Gauge layouts.  I wonder if these new items will make it any easier.  The picture (item E) shows one of the sensors as it would fit in O Gauge tubular track.

Craig

It is definitely cheaper. O gauge FasTrack Sensor tracks are $95 each. I bought 3 to cut up to make 3 S gauge Sensor tracks. The IRV2 is 2 Sensor tracks for $100, and for $30 2 more can be added, 4 for $130.

The sensor and programming package looks like it will just drop in between the ties and rails of Gilbert track. Using scale track or MTH flex track the sensor will still have to be separated from the programming module. That requires some cable and connector fab and fit up.

Camp and kitchen cars are mentioned in the white lettering on the blue background. I see none in the catalog, looks like a proofreading or editing miss.

NotInWI posted:

What is a camp and kitchen car? I googled that I did not find anything.  Makes me think of something from Hell On Wheels. 

Ben

Camp (or bunk) and kitchen cars are usually made from old repurposed boxcars or even old passenger cars.  I suspect something like this is what Lionel has in mind:

Rusty

Perhaps an intended/future offering that didn't quite make the catalog?

Rich

banjoflyer posted:

The new aquarium car is another use of the mint car body I guess. 

The picture shows a side A and B so I guess the car does not have an inner mechanism to make the images move like they do in the O gauge aquarium cars. If it did move the image of a moving train on a moving train  would have been kind of neat.

I did not buy any of the S gauge mint cars and won't buy this one either. At one time I had all the commemorative cars along with the GP7/9 engine. It was neat for awhile but then it all went down that eBay highway... 

Mark

The Polar Express aquarium car mentions illumination and motor driven belt for 5 bucks more.

Oddly enough, I would be interested in a bona-fied aquarium car with swimming fishes...

Rusty

banjoflyer posted:

The new aquarium car is another use of the mint car body I guess. 

The picture shows a side A and B so I guess the car does not have an inner mechanism to make the images move like they do in the O gauge aquarium cars. If it did move the image of a moving train on a moving train  would have been kind of neat.

 

The car indeed is motorized and the trains do move inside along the belt. The belt has two trains on it just like in the image above so there's always one of the two trains on each side. And it is also lit. Same mechanism that will be used in the Polar version. This was a fun car to design.

I am likley also in for the PE aquarium/mint car. I always had a soft spot for the two Polar Express freight sets that Lionel had done in O in the past.  I would like one in S.  (Not that I....EVER complained about fantasy schemes in S! ;-).   

I would not mind one of the FC/BT GPs in that  Beautiful “polar railroad” paint scheme that Lionel did with quite a few O Gauge pieces 5 or 6 years ago.   

Ben

Oddly enough, I would be interested in a bona-fied aquarium car with swimming fishes...

An aquarium car was on my wish list although I was unaware that trains ran underwater without a tunnel. Maybe in the fall we can get one with fish.

Rich

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

A new Legacy engine in S; this keeps hope alive for me,  i.e. that Flyonel is not limited to solely Flyerchief offerings in the future.  As I have said I will buy any new Legacy loco, even if it doesn't come in one of my roadnames. So I look forward to pre ordering one or two of these Berks. I am getting ready to inform a friend of mine about these, and I am sure he will get a couple as well.  I hope these will be huge sellers and make the case for future new Legacy offerings. 

Dave, one additional question for the good of the order...will the Legacy Berk have a real coal load like the challenger and Y3??? I hope so, that just takes it to a wonderful level of detail.  

Ben

gunny posted:

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

The waffle sided boxcar was first offered in 2014 and the fact that it's not a 50' car has been a major complaint.  There are some similar 40' prototypes, but they're pretty rare:

*Well, at least one of the cars offered is SCL...

...too bad it's the wrong color and number...

The Flyer car is a pretty well detailed model and had it been a 50' car, it would have interested some of the scale guys.

Rusty

NotInWI posted:

Dave, one additional question for the good of the order...will the Legacy Berk have a real coal load like the challenger and Y3??? I hope so, that just takes it to a wonderful level of detail.  

Ben

Dave has indicated he'll do a separate post regarding the legacy Berk.  I too have a bunch of questions before I decide to pull the trigger on one.  Hopefully, Dave will answer them in his update.

While I'm not expecting River Raisin level detail, especially given the price point:

I am somewhat expecting the Legacy Berk to be a cut or two above the FlyerChief model.  Wire hand rails and real coal load will help considerably, but there are other details that need to be addressed.

Rusty

Well I am disappointed with this catalog.  I will get some of the Legacy Berkshires.  (Would like to know if Lionel will make the matching Passenger cars for the American Railroad Berkshire).  But there is nothing exciting about this catalog from the Flyer standpoint.  No new tooling.  No new engines.  No new cars (Yes there is the Aquarium car which is the Mint car with a motor in it and cars previously issued with new road names).  I was so certain that Lionel would finally do the SD40 they teased us with years ago.  No new track (wider curves, sensor track, railroad crossing, accessory track etc.)  No new accessories. 

What I find disappointing is that Lionel seems to be one of the few companies that does not listen to what the consumer wants but instead tells us what we want.  I get that new tooling costs money but how does American Models make passenger cars with interiors that are so detailed and Lionel can't.    

In the recent wish lists and surveys, there were so many great ideas that Lionel could see people really wanted yet other than the Legacy Berkshires (Which were low on the list and frankly Lionel had previously alluded to in past discussions) none of those items are in the catalog.  I appreciate that Dave Olson is reading our posts and is very attentive.  He seems like a great person and a real addition to Lionel but I would like somebody just once to explain why we are not seeing anyone addressing our asks.  How does making 2 and 3 bay hoppers for the hundredth time make a great decision that will create growth and customer interest.  Almost any item on the survey list would generate more long term revenue then what they will be getting here.

(Prediction: Next up, Legacy Berkshire Polar Express with the new cars.)

Final thought for Lionel.  Please take a look at what your customers are asking for.  Yes you can't please everyone but there are some very low tooling cost suggestions that would have a great impact on Flyer growth and customer satisfaction.

Final Final thought: Thank you Dave Olson for the attention you have given this group.  You give us all hope that someone is listening at Lionel.

--Rocco--

Rusty Traque posted:

gunny posted:

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

The waffle sided boxcar was first offered in 2014 and the fact that it's not a 50' car has been a major complaint.  There are some similar 40' prototypes, but they're pretty rare:

*Well, at least one of the cars offered is SCL...

...too bad it's the wrong color and number...

The Flyer car is a pretty well detailed model and had it been a 50' car, it would have interested some of the scale guys.

Rusty

The SCL car is the correct color and number series.

kenwoodies1 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

gunny posted:

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

The waffle sided boxcar was first offered in 2014 and the fact that it's not a 50' car has been a major complaint.  There are some similar 40' prototypes, but they're pretty rare:

*Well, at least one of the cars offered is SCL...

...too bad it's the wrong color and number...

Rusty

The SCL car is the correct color and number series.

Except SCL 80182 is a 50' sliding door/plug door boxcar, the Flyer car is 40' long similar to the pictured SCL12604.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

kenwoodies1 posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

gunny posted:

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

The waffle sided boxcar was first offered in 2014 and the fact that it's not a 50' car has been a major complaint.  There are some similar 40' prototypes, but they're pretty rare:

*Well, at least one of the cars offered is SCL...

...too bad it's the wrong color and number...

Rusty

The SCL car is the correct color and number series.

Except SCL 80182 is a 50' sliding door/plug door boxcar, the Flyer car is 40' long similar to the pictured SCL12604.

Rusty

We all know the car is the incorrect length.  Your reply stated "Well, at least one of the cars offered is SCL... too bad it's the wrong color and number."  They probably offered this color scheme as they already had the NS, Southern and CNW in brown/freight car red.  Jim

Rusty Traque posted:

gunny posted:

How come a 50' boxcar and a 40" woodside reefer both measure 8 3/8" ?

And need different radius track?

The waffle sided boxcar was first offered in 2014 and the fact that it's not a 50' car has been a major complaint.  There are some similar 40' prototypes, but they're pretty rare: 

They seem to interchange R20 (20" radius) and S36 (36" diameter?) in the descriptions

Brendan

The new Berks look AWESOME!!!!

I definitely see this as a TOUCHDOWN for Team S.

Taking the Hi-rail* approach in S could REALLY look great with some of neat stuff that S is now getting to the market.

(My definition of S Hi-rail: Kadee couplers; T-rail track [not tubular/traditional]; Realistic scenery/structures/settings and congruous weathering throughout the equipment and layout.)

How's that new track system (not Lionel... some other company... Fox Valley???) coming along?

Andre

For those who used to say"Their not enough in s scale product."I think its safe to say that is changing.Although I am an o gauger.If I where in s scale my mouth would be watering right now.

banjoflyer posted:

Brendan posted:

They seem to interchange R20 (20" radius) and S36 (36" diameter?) in the descriptions

Brendan

Yeah I never could figure that one out. Most S runners use the r20 description. Maybe at some very early point Lionel was trying to make S into an O gauge clone????.......................

i.e. O36 is the same as S36?  Who knows. Even the innermost measurement of the roadbed of an r20 complete circle is larger than 36". With any attempt at clarity they should refer to the standard S scale Fastrack as S40. Then they can describe larger curves as S54...etc.

Mark

 

Lionel catalogs are notorious for cut-and-pastitis.  O36 is the "standard" O gauge Fastrack curve included with their starter sets.

I wouldn't get my shorts in a knot about it.  Does anybody seriously believe the Flyer waffle sided boxcar with the standard Flyer stamped metal frame can't go around R20?

Besides, Lionel doesn't even make an "S36" curve.  Nobody does, in fact.

And if they can get the Y3 around R20:

Even S Scale America and the Lionel cylindrical hopper cars (with body mounted Kadees to boot!) will do R20:

And AM's Budd cars:

Much ado about nothing IMHO.

Rusty

Mark, what was the early price on the FlyerChief Berk?

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Mark, what was the early price on the FlyerChief Berk?

Bill, I have a Bluetooth FlyerChief Berk  and the early buy price was 309

Mike

Flyer 52 posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Mark, what was the early price on the FlyerChief Berk?

Bill, I have a Bluetooth FlyerChief Berk  and the early buy price was 309

Mike

Ro doesn't show an early buy price on the Flyerchief Berks. Perhaps because these are a holdover from the previous catalog?