Made in China!

About 6 months ago I saw 3 videos about the guys who own Scale Trains on the MRH website. The videos showed them starting up the business.  It was very interesting. Almost like a reality show. I hate to be negative but I doubt they will venture into O. I hope I am wrong about that. Time will tell.

I read somewhere on this forum that MRH will now allow folks to view those videos for free. 

Hudson,

You're probably right about them eventually not doing O scale model trains but one can always hope. I failed to mention their models are injection molded plastic with applied metal details, etc. I still think their idea of producing models in their own factory is an interesting approach to a long standing issue.

Here's Scale Trains initial promotional video:

Rapido Trains in Canada also has their own factory (I think they have two now.) 

Both are small companies selling to a specific scale-oriented market, rather than a broad spectrum of customers ranging from the Christmas crowd to serious operator/collector

The 3-rail O market wouldn't fit well into either companies business model, particularly with two competing proprietary command control systems.

Didn't MTH once have their own factory once upon a time?  One of the problems with owning your own factory is you also own all of the overhead and someone like 3rd Rail may not be in a position for that level of financial responsibility.

Rusty

The thread with the video is only a week old or so.  Just down the page on the 2 rail forum.

I'm not entirely sure that ScaleTrains owns the factory or directly employs the workers.  I believe they are the only American company that the factory does work for.  I think if you watch the videos, you'll see that they still have some of the common problems as other manufacturers no matter what their relationship is.

Just my opinion, no matter who makes trains in China, in any scale, you must remember the quality of the materials used, i.e., plastic and metal is not the best. Zinc rot and other problems prevail. MTH and other mfgs. models made in Korea by Samhongsa were better because the materials used were a higher quality grade.   

The issue of the use of 'quality materials' aside its seems to me very encouraging that at a group of train enthusiast businessmen are seriously trying to raise the bar under admittedly very difficult circumstances.

I wish them all the success they deserve....................

The American O market is much more complex than the American HO market. In O scale, there are several niches that each want it their way.

On the other hand, the HO market simply wants good product and we're reasonably sure that something that is offered that we want/purchase will meet up with the NMRA standards set within HO. (i.e. wheel contours and gauge, coupler compatibility, command control compatibility, etc.)  Thus, we don't have to deal with Traditional Size, Scale Size, Hi Rail, 3RS, 2 rail, wide gauge, DCS vs Lionel vs ???, etc. 

Very complex market, O scale.

I do not envy the mfg'ers trying to create O scale railroad model equipment.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Just my opinion, no matter who makes trains in China, in any scale, you must remember the quality of the materials used, i.e., plastic and metal is not the best. Zinc rot and other problems prevail. MTH and other mfgs. models made in Korea by Samhongsa were better because the materials used were a higher quality grade.   

I think my Lionel Vision Big Boys say "made in China" as do the rest of my $$$$ Vision products, and my ESE set, etc. Are they all made of inferior materials and doomed to rot? 

Maybe.

I get a kick out of the comments about our vagaries - and he didn't even mention 17/64 and Proto-48.

Good luck to them - we already have an abundance of things coming from China in O Gauge/ O Scale/ Railking/ MMW. Support those suppliers.

I asked them about making their UP aux water tenders in O scale and they responded by saying they had no interest in upscaling their stuff to O. Their HO versions are fantastic with loads of detail.

Paul,

I'm not convinced by your comments about "the quality of materials used" in making model trains in China. Yes there have been some problems reported regarding the plastic and zinc materials used but no one to my knowledge has officially isolated the problem to the composition of the materials used in production. Quality control (QC) is an important issue for all manufacturers but its also worth remembering the terrible quality of early Korean brass models exported in the 1980's and 1990's. As I recall early brass models from Korea were a total nightmare compared to Japanese imports. Korean model makers learned to do much much better before importers went to China for cheaper production cost.

Laming,

You bring up an interesting point in saying the O scale "market is much more complex" than the HO model train market. Maybe its time for O scale modelers to adapt to changing market conditions and except a set of limited 'standards' similar to those of the HO community. Maybe the number of 'variables' O scalers think they need or want can be reduced so more models can be produced and sold in a changing marketplace.

Just a thought.............

nyccollector1 posted:

Paul,

I'm not convinced by your comments about "the quality of materials used" in making model trains in China. Yes there have been some problems reported regarding the plastic and zinc materials used but no one to my knowledge has officially isolated the problem to the composition of the materials used in production. Quality control (QC) is an important issue for all manufacturers but its also worth remembering the terrible quality of early Korean brass models exported in the 1980's and 1990's. As I recall early brass models from Korea were a total nightmare compared to Japanese imports. Korean model makers learned to do much much better before importers went to China for cheaper production cost.

Laming,

You bring up an interesting point in saying the O scale "market is much more complex" than the HO model train market. Maybe its time for O scale modelers to adapt to changing market conditions and except a set of limited 'standards' similar to those of the HO community. Maybe the number of 'variables' O scalers think they need or want can be reduced so more models can be produced and sold in a changing marketplace.

Just a thought.............

I did say it was just my opinion. My comments were not made to convince anyone. Believe what you want or whatever floats your boat.  

Even Märklin has trains made in China. 

PJB posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Just my opinion, no matter who makes trains in China, in any scale, you must remember the quality of the materials used, i.e., plastic and metal is not the best. Zinc rot and other problems prevail. MTH and other mfgs. models made in Korea by Samhongsa were better because the materials used were a higher quality grade.   

I think my Lionel Vision Big Boys say "made in China" as do the rest of my $$$$ Vision products, and my ESE set, etc. Are they all made of inferior materials and doomed to rot? 

hello PJB.........

I REALLY don't want to say this BUT it CAN happen and those vision products were not around enough time to see if it will or not but only time will tell.  This is one of the reasons why I buy OLDER NOS stock like the Railking NW-2 switcher I purchased last August and this engine was made in Korea in 1999.  This engine PASSED the test of time of being in the box for 17 years it was never taken out of the box until I received it.  The engine was perfect !!! much to my surprise.  It has good paint job, plastic ABS shell and die cast frame, trucks so on, no zinc rot or screw post cracks, no scratches.   I just put in a BCR and off it went for break in time ( it didn't need much break in anyway !!!)   It did have few bugs but those I fixed at home.  That engine has to be made with high grade materials and good quality control to be in this condition 17 years later.

Tiffany

I don't know about other importers like Scale Trains but owning a factory as a foreigner in China opens you up to all the corruption that exists between local governments and businesses and situations can vary wildly from area to area and city to city.  China is very much a labor oriented Communist State and workers can easily sue their foreign business owners for a variety of things that happened or didn't happen. I have seen it happen to other Americans that owned factories in China but I won't name them. You would have to live there, and even then, factory workers do not respect foreign owners, not even out of town owners. It is best to have management that lives in the same town as the factory and workers come from.

For me, the best way to produce models is to have a good relationship with several suppliers that assemble and paint models and to control design and tooling and vendors separately.

As for poor materials in diecasting and plastic, I think we have that well under control. The factories I work with know where their next projects and money comes from (YOU) and do their best to maintain quality materials and processes throughout. Many of our Diescast parts are purchased from Korean suppliers either in Korea or China. And plastic injection material is usually of good enough quality that in over 10 years we have seen no obvious signs of deterioration in our productions.  20 years ago we did have problems with Chinese die-cast, but that has not repeated itself since then as the suppliers have identified the problems and corrected it.

The one thing that throws a wrench into any venture overseas is the financial stability of the factories you work with. When they run out of money, they just disappear and there is nothing you can do about it.  If you are their sole source of funds then you have to reach in your pocket everytime this happens. If they rely on others, then you are at the whim of other businesses that might throw the factory into disarray. So you have to know the people you're dealing with, and there has to be an openness in understanding their financial stability and or hardships. Sometimes you have to pay more even if you had already agreed to a price. And never put all your eggs in one basket. Like so many importers did when Sanda Kan closed their doors.

That's what my 20+ years of importing in Korea and China have taught me.

Scott Mann

Trying to get another control system in O seems like the biggest obstacle.  I'd be up for some kind of wireless DCC if I could also run MTH & Legacy at the same time.  Then to me, there's fun to be had swapping out new sound decoders as the "next big thing" comes out in that area... 

Tiffany - with respect, you're pointing out an anecdotal example and, while I'm glad your purchase of an old RK model met your needs, it's not evidence of anything. To wit, my boyhood Lionel train sets (mid-1970s) are made of crappy plastic and there was no real quality in build standard. All run perfectly today after sitting forgotten and collecting a thick layer of dust for nearly 40 years, in humid non-air conditioned NYC. No rust, no pitting, no cracked screw holes. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that an example or two (or three) isn't necessarily evidence that there is a direct correlation between "made in China" and inferior build/greater propensity of future problems.

With regard to others stating Chinese products are now every bit as good because they know they're audience. Is this true? Again, I have no specific evidence but I recall Atlas trackage and turnouts were very delayed because Atlas rejected the sample products it was getting from its Chinese manufacturer to the point where it eventually switched manufacturers.

Peter

I think my Lionel Vision Big Boys say "made in China" as do the rest of my $$$$ Vision products, and my ESE set, etc. Are they all made of inferior materials and doomed to rot? 

Only time will tell. For years I've read that zinc rot (zinc pest) was caused by impurities in the alloy. More recently I've read that storage conditions can also cause zinc rot (humidity). I suspect both can be true causes. Early ZAMAC products have a reputation for a high incidence of decay. Yet some early pieces have survived all these years. It did not take too many years for the incidence of decay to drop significantly. The other day I was looking at a 1946 turbine body with spots of corrosion here and there, but no zinc rot.
Over the years, with few exceptions, the problem of zinc rot went away. The notable exceptions were Lionel transformer control shafts, and some mid to late 1970's diesel truck side frames.
To me, this does point to issues created at casting time, not storage.

Problems with ZAMAC parts seems to have become common with production moving to China. I've read about other items, such as toy / model cars suffering rot. I have some outdoor garden lights with ZAMAC parts. On some lights, the cast parts are holding up fine, on others they are suffering zinc rot. They are within feet of each other.

I am not an expert on ZAMAC. My opinions were formed through reading as much as I could find on the subject. I know there are people participating here who have more formal knowledge. Maybe they will comment.

I can only imagine what it would be like dealing with China in business.  I dealt with various nationalities and it was interesting, to say the least. You have to remember that they do things different than in the US.

PJB posted:

Tiffany - with respect, you're pointing out an anecdotal example and, while I'm glad your purchase of an old RK model met your needs, it's not evidence of anything. To wit, my boyhood Lionel train sets (mid-1970s) are made of crappy plastic and there was no real quality in build standard. All run perfectly today after sitting forgotten and collecting a thick layer of dust for nearly 40 years, in humid non-air conditioned NYC. No rust, no pitting, no cracked screw holes. Not saying you're wrong, just saying that an example or two (or three) isn't necessarily evidence that there is a direct correlation between "made in China" and inferior build/greater propensity of future problems.

With regard to others stating Chinese products are now every bit as good because they know they're audience. Is this true? Again, I have no specific evidence but I recall Atlas trackage and turnouts were very delayed because Atlas rejected the sample products it was getting from its Chinese manufacturer to the point where it eventually switched manufacturers.

Peter

Hello PJB...

It is to me because I PAID for it and EXPECTED to be good.   You are correct in most cases in the quality build not made in those MPC era trains as the ones I had were okay except to 2  I remember well (8206 and 8250) which I ran the wheels off of them but the 8206 had wobbling wheels due to drilled off center axle holes of the drivers and at that time I didn't care as long it runs and runs like a duck.  The 8250 center white plastic outside gear was always coming off and had to be pressed back on often.  The 8250 had plastic chrome plated horn that was always getting broken so I left it broken.  That was in 1973.   I didn't even know what quality control was until in 1979 I was offered a job as a QA mech. inspector for the D.O.D then I learned a whole lot.  That was the day I noticed many items (train items) was poorly made which woke me up very surprised.  Mind you that those MPC trains were made in USA !!!!   There is one thing I LIKED about the MPC era was that the trains were very colorful and some of them had bright colors !!

Tiffany

bob2 posted:

Maybe.

I get a kick out of the comments about our vagaries - and he didn't even mention 17/64 and Proto-48.

Good luck to them - we already have an abundance of things coming from China in O Gauge/ O Scale/ Railking/ MMW. Support those suppliers.

What if they're NOT making anything I want. Aside from that, how much stuff are YOU buying?

Simon

I haven't bought a locomotive or a car in maybe a decade.  Does that mean I cannot opine on what is currently available?

bob2 posted:

I haven't bought a locomotive or a car in maybe a decade.  Does that mean I cannot opine on what is currently available?

Yes.

Greetings Everyone,

Ah yes, zinc rot (or whatever the name of this surreptitious virus that attacks unsuspecting zinc items is).   I have personally experienced it with MTH and K-line but not Lionel to the best of my recollection.   The MTH experience was a Railking Pennsy K4 Torpedo.  It was purchased (a long time ago) and stored for several years and to my surprise upon unpacking it (also a long time ago) the tender was so "infected" with "zinc rot" it literally disintegrated while in storage.   It was reported to MTH at the time and the problem was promptly corrected with a new tender.   The K-Line experience involved one (1)die cast truck on a KCC Pennsy Railway Express Boxcar.   Again, it disintegrated while in storage.   The other truck was perfect.   Hey, stuff happens, (but thankfully not all the time)and more to the point, not so much these days.   It is, what it is.

 Chief Bob (Retired)

In response to Mr. Burfle comments on zinc, it has two problems. One is a result of a lack of purity of the zinc. If the zinc is not extremely pure it will rapidly deteriorate and crumble.  New Jersey Zinc was the company that was known for either developing or importing the method of refining zinc to the required high purity in this country. I believe this was done in the 1930s.  This high purity zinc is then alloyed with one or two other metals to make Zamac. The other problem with zinc is intergranular corrosion. This results in the zinc castings growing is size over time and loosing strength. It is usually associated with moisture, high humidity and warm temperatures. This will results in failure of the casting at changes in section where the casting can not adapt to the dimensional changes.  An example of this is where the cab brakes off the boiler on the 700E or 763E. This corrosion can be reduced by fully painting the part. Also by keeping it in a low humidity environment. I do not look at zinc castings as being permanent.  But the same can be said for most plastics as it get brittle over time.

As for quality, the definition of quality in a manufacturing environment is "conformance to the approved drawings and specifications". If the axle hole in a wheel is not quite in the center the question is "does it meet the drawing and specification requirements?"  Either it acceptable or it is not. The last thing you ever want to see is a QA inspector making up requirements as they go along.  When an imported train does not meet your expectations, is this because the manufacture did not meet the drawing and specification requirements or is it because the importer failed to provided adequate drawings and specifications?  This question has to be answered before you can lay the blame for your dissapointment in your latest train purchase. 

Hot Water posted:

bob2 posted:

I haven't bought a locomotive or a car in maybe a decade.  Does that mean I cannot opine on what is currently available?

Yes.

HW is correct: By your own admission your credibility is somewhat undermined. I believe the correct American term is 'no skin in the game'.

bob2 posted:

I haven't bought a locomotive or a car in maybe a decade.  Does that mean I cannot opine on what is currently available?

Sure you can...  This is what the internet was designed for so that both the informed and knowledgeable, and then the totally ignorant, and then everyone in between can go on-line and spout their opinions.

So, have at it!

So to kill some time at the hotel before I drive to Baldwin to meet up with Bob Heil, I thought I would enlighten our engineers in the audience. First, this is model train manufacturing, and even if I specified stringent requirements for material pureness there is no guarantee that the parts meet that specification.

If I reject the parts and delay production, guess what? I Have to twice for the parts and any delays in production. The factory cannot loose money. They go out of business if that happens. They have to meet expenses, or I have to make up for it.

There is no laboratory to study the diecast truck side frames that come out of Korea. I could spend $25,000 to have them analyzed here in the US for every different item that is delivered by a subcontractor, or I can just trust that the relative quality of the part will be the same as in the near past, because the vendor's future business relies on it.

I came out of the Aerospace environment, so I am well aware of the myriad QC qualifications for aircraft parts. But since no one will be riding in these vehicles (model trains), I don't see the point in going through the extreme expense and trouble and then have to pass these costs on to the consumer so they don't have to worry.  I think that's a recipe for bankruptcy.

Sure there are going to be problems, sure they are going to be upsets. And that is why 1/2 of my budget is customer service. It's unavoidable in an industry of one shot production runs. There are hardly any repeats and everything is corrected on the fly to save cost. Keep the budget and keep the customers happy.

Maybe I am doing this all wrong. But I do see our models 20 years old still running on layouts, made of Life-Time Brass. Seems to be the way to go. Plastic and diecast will eventually deteriorate by nature, but that will give me the opportunity to serve our customers again. Nothing lasts forever friends, not even you.

Armchair warriors make your recommendations. I will have to filter what is asked of the manufacturer or they will just heap on costs to our projects making them very expensive for the customer. Perfection is very expensive.  Acceptable quality and accuracy is subjective and in constant motion. It's enough to drive a business owner crazy.  I suspect that's why the other importers don't bother to get bogged down in these discussions. Best to just sell trains and move on.

I look forward to continuing these discussions at the York TCA Meet. See you there.

Scott Mann

All of this talk about inferior metals and deteriorating plastic and questionable materials used in making these models have no impact on my buying decision. Despite the tone of this thread I can honestly say that I cannot wait to see my 2 Sunset Models SD40-2's that I have reserved, whichever road name it is.

I hope all road names meet the minimum reservations so everybody is satisfied. 

I agree, Scott,but some nations, industries and corporate entities have an in-house culture on quality while others seriously lag  behind. We have read about them in the news in the last 5 years or so.  And the lack of quality has bankrupted or almost bankrupted them in the process. Finding a quality  manufacturer of parts should be your job , not ours.  I was involved with industrial manufacturing for 40 years and QC is and was an ongoing  process.

While many sit comfortably in their P.J.s  critically stroking the key board  I would suggest to pause and look around the house.

Retired from a career in residential remodeling I can state with experience, every facet of most homes is built by the lowest bidder!

I have seen and worked  with it all.  The "That's good enough" plumbers.   The "That will do"  sheet rock hangers.   Carpenters installing electrical service panels and painters cutting their caulk tip half way down.  Vans pulling up to a job filled with unlicensed and unpapered  dayworkers butchering somebodies 30 year mortgaged home.

In the trade we call them "Indoor roofers".  Which in many cases was an insult to roofers.

Mediocracy abounds.  Buyer beware.

We need to choose carefully.  As for me when I spend four figures for an engine it will be life time brass.

I too came from the aircraft industry.  You can walk home from a failed switch machine or rotted casting.  Not many folks can afford an airplane.  Just an observation.

BTW, when someone like Bob2 makes a QC comment, it is worth a listen.

A doctor does not have to bare children to qualify delivering them.

If QC is so great in the aeronautical and space industry why do they have the back up systems ??   They deal with lowest bidders too.  Poor old Lionel had good enough  QC to make precise navigational systems for the Navy during WW II.

jim pastorius posted:

If QC is so great in the aeronautical and space industry why do they have the back up systems ?? 

Because humans are involved.......in PJ's.  Spew!

Jim, Like I said,  You can walk home for a fried toy choo choo train.

I will throw in my 2 Cents. Korean and Taiwan Lionel made products don't fall apart until 15 years later. Fact my 2001 SP 2-8-0 (Made in Korea) Runs like a champ still and only had to get a new motor. Wish Lionel still manufactured in Korean and Taiwan, as some of the China Products have given me fits and more troubles than not. If Lionel had Korea produce the new Legacy GS-4, The hatch would be on correctly 95% guaranteed. 

bob2 posted:

I haven't bought a locomotive or a car in maybe a decade.  Does that mean I cannot opine on what is currently available?

You can opine all you like, but I think it's a bit hypocritical advocating something you're not willing to do yourself.

Simon 

Just a question for Scott.  You use a builder in the Philippines for one of your models.  How did that work out?

As a career military pilot, I had to trust the manufacturer, lowest bidder, parts manufacturer, lowest bidder, logistics company transporting the goods to induction centers, lowest bidder, and the technicians keeping the aircraft operational, low paid and over worked, but they did one hell of a job. Most of the aircraft I flew were kept WELL beyond their initial life expectancy, going through refits, SR&M updates, many hours of watching a hangar queen getting fixed so I could do a 15 minute test flight, and turn it over to a crew who flew it on missions, both training and real world. I walked away from 1 major and 2 minor incidents and praised the maintainers and manufacturers, some didn't and have headstones now.

I own prewar, postwar, MPC and modern trains, Lionel, MTH, Weaver and WBB.  There has been good AND bad engines among them all, I do as much research as I can before purchase any new item, and have recently been buying the last NEW release which has most, if not all the bugs worked out.

When I run my trains, if they work, and give me pleasure, I am smiling, if not, I fill the air with expletives and a lot of teeth gnashing as tear it down and find the problem, or drop it off at a trusted repair facility. 

I have finite funds for new engines, so anything I buy, is already vetted and recommended so I am not the guinea pig.

I don't rant anymore, I deal with life and enjoy the pleasure a train circumnavigating my layout or the clubs layout brings. I think some people would be catatonic if they could not wax poetic (ne: CRANK and denigrate) about the items we PLAY with.

You are lucky-they gave you a parachute !!  Most who have served have survived with old, reworked equipment.