Mianne Bench Work; Soundproofing

I have a 24'x28' layout entirely built of Mianne benchwork and can address question #3 re: moisture.  I live in the midwest and the layout has been in the basement for 2.5 years.  The top is covered with 3/4" Birch plywood, 1" blue Styrofoam and ballasted cork roadbed. One corner has a Mianne LiftGate for a walk thru.  The basement is heated and cooled and a dehumidifier set to 50% runs in the Spring/Summer/early Fall.  I've not had any problems with swelling or shrinkage of the layout - the LiftGate fits fine (thru at least 3 seasons), as do the curved double-track mainline that traverses it.

 

I don't have the upper shelf. I have thought about it, may be added in the future? Haven't thought about an elevation yet.

 

Moisture should not be a problem with your Mianne bench work. Mine is in the basement in the midwest as well. No problems, very easy to assemble and goes together very quickly. They provide good instructions specific to your order. I would recommend it to anyone, very nice, I am quite happy with mine and am planning to add more.

 

I used 1/2" plywood on mine. Sandply from Home Depot. Was going to use birch, but in 1/2" the sandply had more plies, less chance for warping. Many use Homasote on top of their plywood and cork roadbed on top of that then track. Homasote will hold fasteners for your track, just don't install any track fasteners the go into the plywood. Keep the track isolated from the plywood.

 

Flexxbed road bed is vinyl and may add more quieting than cork?

Solid rail track will also be quieter than tubular.

 

Mianne legs each have a leveling foot on them, another nice feature. You could use a table leg pad of felt or other material on each leveler to help isolate your bench work from your floor.

 

Let me get this straight.  On top of the bench work you are putting a layer each of:
- 3/4" plywood
- 1/2" homasote
- 1/2 carpet padding
- 70 weight carpet
- another layer of 3/4" plywood
- another layer of 1/2" homasote
- cork roadbed
- then track

Well, I don't think you can do much more than that besides starting with a layer of spancrete on the bottom.  Seems like a tad overkill, but as always, to each his own.

 

I would not put Homasote under a carpeted floor. If the Homasote gets wet (such as when the carpet needs to be cleaned), you will regret it. 

Huh, that is an excellent point.  I don't know often (or ever) the carpet would get wet-cleaned, but surely worth considering.

 

OK, then, what would you use as sound proofing on the floor, because I don't believe carpeting will be enough for the BR below??

 

Thnx,

ron

Ok...I understand this post will come off wrong but I'll go ahead anyway.  You are using tubular track which by virtue of its design is the noisiest type of track you can use.  No matter what you use anything short of a soundproof room will result in noise being heard in the room below.

As to your other questions, they are pretty much irrelevant as you will have the same questions and answers whether or not you use Mianne benchwork or make your own out of any other type of wood.

My advice, as one who suffers from and is medicated for OCD,  take your Paroxetine and go ahead and purchase the benchwork...they are the best pre-fab benchwork on the market.

-Greg

Looking at the Homasote website, they do rate it OK for installation as underlay under carpet pad/carpet, as well as vinyl flooring and gluedown carpet.  They also say it is moisture resistant.  It won't hold nails, so you have to provide strips of wood along the wall for the tackless strips. 

 

They do say that if it becomes saturated with water, to let it dry out before using, and that it's strength is not diminished.  I don't think carpet cleaning would saturate the subfloor - if so, some underlay plywoods would delaminate.

 

That said, IMHO it is overkill on the floor if using it on the layout.

Hello,

Is the area under the sub floor a hollow space ?

If it is ,you might  want to blow some insulation into that area to block the sound from coming down into the room below.

You wold only have to drill small holes to do this and would make the room warmer/cooler

This would be cheaper than all that Homasote and if any other part of the home needs it too,this would be the time to do it.

I can provide some feedback on homasote flooring. Part of our second floor was built with homasote underlayment. It was inch and a half on top of 2x12 floor joists. The remainder of the second floor is one inch concrete over 3/4 subflooring. There is no sound transmission between floors at all. We rebuilt the house last summer and removed the homasote, replaced it with multiple layers of subflooring. I had never seen inch and a half homasote so I saved a small piece when the contractor took it out. It was 25 years old and looked like new. We insulated between the floors with sound insulation, it is much denser than thermal insulation. There is a 1,000 watt entertainment system above the living room, no sound is audible through the floor. It has Sound insulation, one layer of 3/4 and one layer of 1" flooring plus padding and carpeting. Most carpet padding is either 8 or 10 pounds per square yard. We used 20 pound padding, it makes a big difference. I recommend putting 1"x4" runners about 2' long under each leg, it distributes the load over a greater area. Less carpet damage and less sound transmission. We had a train layout in the room during the holidays and no sound was audible in the living room below. The layout was original tubular track in Johnson repro roadbed on 1/2" plywood. 

 

 

 

I would agree with that statement 100%

 

 

Ron,

 

I started began purchasing my Mianne bench work some 14 years ago and my basement layout has  now grown to 40'x30'. My wife and I have become good friends with Tim and Lynn and we can usually be found working their booth at York and Springfield. I am a huge fan of his product.

 

It appears that you have done some serious research before starting your project and are now seeking advice from forum members that have already established at least some of their layout.

 

Atop my Mianne bench work, I used 5/8" CDX plywood which is screwed to the bench work. Atop that I used a product by Celotex called Sound Stop. It comes in a 4'x8' sheet, has a medium brown color and it is  fibrous in texture. It is 1/2" thick, a lot lighter and 1/3 the price of homesote (for me locally). It does not hold a fastener as well as homesote. It also raises much less "dust" when cut than homesote. I attached it to the plywood substrate with glue. No mechanical fasteners through it to the substrate. The fasteners themselves are a big culprit to transmitting sound. My trackage is Gargraves and Ross and all Ross turnouts (97). Again, I used almost no mechanical fasteners to hold the trackwork to the substrate. I did install cork roadbed (glued to the Sound Board) but have since removed almost all of it. I found no added sound deadening benefit in my application. It also raised the height of the rail head way too high off the surface of the deck. I do not run my modern day diesel motive power with the sound on unless there are visitors to the layout. I rather the sound of the wheels traversing the track joints. I have almost no landscaping yet (to help absorb sound) and I feel my layout is very quiet. Those who have been to the layout agree.

 

The second level bench work that Tim developed is to be meant as a separate layout. Unless you have a large layout with a long inclined run, can you get from one level to the other (or design in a helix). I do not have any of that bench work on my layout but have seen layouts with it. Does it "close in" the part of the layout underneath it? Yes it can. Good lighting can lessen that somewhat. I have also seen that second level bench work on layouts that are "walk around" types and not up against the wall. That really does open up the lower level underneath.

As I commented earlier, we had homasote under carpeting in our upstairs bonus room for 25 years. For 5 of those years we had window leaks until I could get the windows replaced. Of course it never rains in southern California! The carpet tack strips held fine, we re carpeted the room once as well. When we took out the homasote in last summer's remodel it was completely undamaged, the nail heads were rusted from the moisture. I think what happens is the carpet and padding absorbs moisture quicker and easier than homasote so unless there is a pipe leak or some major source of water the carpet protects the homasote. The only reason we removed it was it was one and one half inches of homasote with no wood subflooring below it. 

I am not recommending homasote for subflooring but based on 25 years of actual experience it worked fine with no issues.

As I said, I don't have a second shelf, but here are some pictures of Mianne bench work being assembled. This is Mianne's 6'x16' kit. From boxes to track ready. This took about 8 hours from receiving the shipment from FedEx to having the plywood installed and ready for track. Including moving things around to make room for it all.

 

It is really easy and fast. An addition is planned for later this year, might do some re-configuring of the existing table as well? Another real advantage of the Mianne bench work. I am also a huge fan along with Cape Cod Northern above.

 

 

 

 

 

Don, many thanks.  Very nice of you.  Only thing, this is about what I remember from York every time I hang around the booth. 

 

I really wish someone had pictures of an actual, operating, landscaped layout showing the relationship between the main and the second level.

 

Anyone??

ron

Ron,

 

In the picture that Don posted, I am the one in the grey sweatshirt. Anyway, I was able to get the Celotex from my local building center but never saw it in a HD or Lowes. I recall spending about $7-$8 per sheet. They no longer carry it and I wrote to the company representative, LScholl@blueridgefiberboard.com, and asked them for a dealer in my area. They were helpful. CDX is nothing more than exterior grade plywood sheathing. Nothing fancy. I have attached two photos showing the ballasted track with no roadbed. I use a ballast applying car to spread it. I do not glue it down! In the other shot you can see the soundboard, plywood atop my benchwork. Continue to ask questions and I will try an answer what I can. Perhaps I will give Tim a call tonight and get back to you.

Thanks for detailed answer (what's your name?).  Amazing track work.  Would that I had 40 feet.  The low-angle shot of the freight is great, and I see the layers.  The Celotex and ply each seem about the same thickness.  What would that be?  Ballast looks nice.  Wouldn't you drip dilute white glue on to hold?  What's a ballast spreading car?  Does it really work?

 

I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but isn't Celotex that material used in ceilings of recording studios for sound deadening, to prevent echos?  Sounds good, and thanks.

 

Plywood top:  Again, not there, but Jim Barrett of O-Gauger said that 1/2 inch becomes a drumhead, and he recommends 3/4.  Your thoughts?  So you used the roughest available?

 

Good if you talk with Tim.  I'm waiting eagerly for his new plan after a week--not that I'm ready to assemble yet by any means.  It's such a seemingly good product, yet it's strange that he has no pix, videos, nothing to demonstrate it.  **Is there anyone you know who has a landscaped layout, esp with that second level?

 

Thnx and best,

ron

Ron;

Sorry, but no Mianne Benchwork here.

For sound insulation I found some at both Lowe's and Home Depot.

Search for sound insulation products.  HD had the better cost local to me.

NOTE: These items are Not stocked in all stores.

For Celotex SoundStop, which is a better sound barrier, go to a true Lumber store, not the big boxes. It is also less cost but remember, it will Not hold your track screws as well as Homosote. Use more screws or just let the track lay. Once you ballast (glued down) you can remove the screws anyway.

On my old layout I put Celotex SoundStop under my Realtrax, which is worse than tubular for noise.

It made a massive difference in the sound level of the track.

 

I would NOT use it on the floor, it will break down under compression.

Russell, thnx.  Appreciated.  Interesting:  Many people have suggestions about sound proofing, but few about Mianne bench work, and even fewer about the overhanging second level.

 

I understand about Celotex not on the floor.  Just got 9 sheets of Homa for that.

 

Yes, another member suggested Celotex for the layout:  Lighter, cheaper, but have to search it out.  Also glue it down, which is better than screws, anyway, for not transmitting sound.

 

Thnx and best, ron

I have a 2-tier Mianne layout.  I have attached photos that I took while setting it up.  It is an around-the-room layout.  The room dimensions are roughly 26' x 28' with a 10' ceiling in the middle with the sides dropping to about 6'.

 

I've got a lot more pictures.  Let me know if there are specific pictures you'd like to see.

Vince,

 

These are really helpful.  Thanks!

 

Questions:  How wide is your second level:  12, 18 or 24?

How high above the main layout...and how'd you come to that height?

Do you feel you'll need to put lights (strip flourescents, maybe) under the second level to light the main layout?

Does the main layout really seem to be in shadow or "hidden" by the second level?

Do you need that fascia board on the front of the second level?  Did you just put it on for aesthetics, or to hide the brackets?

**Have you landscaped yet; installed any accessories; run trains on the main layout under the second level?  Could you mock up some accessories, buildings, trains

just so I could see the clearance?

 

Many thanks again.  These are the first pix I've really seen showing this clearly.

 

Best,

ron

 

Ron,

 

To answer your questions:

1. Upper level is 24" deep, lower level is 36" deep

2. Height of lower level is 36", height of upper level is 60"

3. I first decided that 60" was a good height for the upper level.  I wanted to leave a reasonable amount space between the levels to allow for elevated track sections on the lower level.  And, I wanted to be able to get under the layout without breaking my back  so I decided on 36" for the lower level.

4. Trains toward the back of the lower level are certainly in dimmer light than those towards the front. But, it's not like they are in the dark.  I have thought about putting some lighting under the upper level or to add more fixtures to my ceiling track lighting and direct them toward the rear of the lower level.

5. What you are referring to as the fascia board is part of the Mianne benchwork; it is required.  At some point I plan to put some kind of fascia at the front of the lower and upper levels.

6. I am currently doing my lower level O gauge track layout using SCARM and just positioning pieces of track on the benchwork to see how I like it and to see if it fits.  I'm using Fastrack so I have lots of the fitter pieces (1 3/4" and 1 3/8").  I have a bunch of Fastrack just laying on the benchwork right now. 

7. I have a couple of accessories (Lionel transfer table, nuclear reactor, and MTH train station) on the benchwork just for fitting with the track.  Given the depth of my upper level, I wouldn't put anything more than about 12" tall toward the back of the lower level.  I have the Lionel lift bridge and I'm trying figure out a way to install it near the front of the lower level...as I recall it is about 18" tall so it may look kind of out of place. It'll be a couple of weeks before I can take any pictures with the accessories in place as I am about to start a busy travel schedule.   Could you send me a reminder e-mail (address is in my profile)?

8. After I get the O gauge trains running, then I need to finalize my track plan for the G gauge trains on the upper level.  

 

I hope I answered your questions.  Let me know if I can help with any more info. 

Vince,

 

Very helpful.  Thnx.  My email:  hollanderr@mail.montclair.edu.

 

What's SCARM?

 

I will go a different way with the second level.  If my main level is about 30, my upper will be probly only 12.  Otherwise I fear it will dominate the main too much.  I see your top is 2/3 the lower, but it seems to look OK.

 

What I have to figure out is how much difference between the two.  My main will be the std 40.  So maybe the upper would be 52?  I'm torn because I'd like it high enough to allow for accessories and buildings and not have them look like they're scrapng the "ceiling", but on the other hand, I want to put Rail Rax and rail photos behind the layout, so the higher the upper level, the less wall space will be left.

 

I understand about your traveling.  **But could you just snap a few with an accessory or train or tree or something to give perspective on the lower level under the upper?

 

**Any more shots you happen to have that show the relationship very much appreciated.  Oh, also, an overview so I can see your layout in your room to guide me.

 

Question:  When you order Mianne with the second level, do you have to get the whole thing--the brackets and that fascia board--or can you just get the taller standards and add the rest later?

 

Thnx and best,

ron

Ron,

 

I just sent you an e-mail.  I realized I forgot your question about SCARM.

 

It's free software for designing track layouts (Simple Computer Aided Railway Modeller).  Here's the link to the website: http://www.scarm.info/index.php

Vince, I would also like to see more pictures of your layout.  I'm thinking of doing something similar.

 

thanks

 

Ron,

I have visited Cape Cod Northern's layout last October and as he said it is a quiet layout. I too will use Mianne benchwork with plywood and SoundStop if I can find it. 

                                                              Fred

Thnx, Fred.  Good to know.  Where is it?

 

Plywood:  1/2 or 3/4?  Grade?

 

Why not Homa on top of that?

 

ron

Ron, if you mean the SoundStop, I don't know where to find it. As for plywood some use 1/2, others use 5/8, etc. Some say the thicker it is the better for lessening sound. I guess Homasote on top of SoundStop would help. As AL indicated the SoundStop is not good for fastening the track. But some people don't fasten the track to the material below it. I am almost finished dismantling my carpet central to start a layout on Mianne benchwork. ....also I am still making decisions. As soon as I am ready I will order the benchwork from Tim. He is very helpful.