Anyone remember when Mike Wolf was quoted as saying that command control would never catch on, back in the mid-1990s, and that MTH wouldn't be making it? Or when he claimed to own factories in China so MTH's production was guaranteed? No one's perfect, to be sure, but those are statements that don't inspire faith in his infallibility or objectivity at this late date. 
Mike is a good politician, that's all.
Anyone remember when Mike Wolf was quoted as saying that command control would never catch on, back in the mid-1990s, and that MTH wouldn't be making it? Or when he claimed to own factories in China so MTH's production was guaranteed? No one's perfect, to be sure, but those are statements that don't inspire faith in his infallibility or objectivity at this late date.
Mike is a good politician, that's all.
Or smart enough not to stick to his original assessment and change with the market.
Rusty
>>>I think the reason that O gauge trains aren't often seen in big box stores is because they are made to take back their defective items for a refund.<<
Here's a better reason.
Last Thursday I couldn't help but notice while sitting in a packed eye doctors office the high percentage of folks of all ages with heads down tapping and sliding fingers across smart phones.
Some were gigling while most seemed entranced at the task at hand.
Noticed other folks already back tapping on phones before they reached the door as they left the office.
Trains in this day and age is a tough, if not impossible sell. They're grossly expensive and completely overwhelmed by the electronic age of entertainment.
Joe
I went back and read the CTT article/interview again. I honestly didn't see anything in there that I don't agree with for the most part. I think the "father to son" statement would have perhaps been better seen as a "continuing family tradition" or some such, but I do agree that, today, and for a variety of reasons, the big box outlets for toy trains simply don't work all that well. Lionel has tried it and MTH has tried it, and neither effort enjoyed great success. Simply too many restrictions related to dealing with those mega-stores.
A really smart move on the part of MTH, in my view, was to make select HO trains compatible with the Marklin system, which outside the U.S. is a long-existing and widely used track and control system that supports a quality line of trains.
I would rather listen to the "fuzzy" vision of an entrepreneur like Mike Wolf with rapt attention more than the "funnel" logic of a (yet another) group of managing investors seeking to protect and profit the iconic brand name of 100+ years....any day.
Considering how Mr. Wolf has changed the nature of competitiveness in this hobby in the past 25 years, I can't imagine why anyone would dismiss or minimize his perspective. (Well, actually, watching the societal logic unfolding today, I'm not surprised.)
Re the original posted thought?... I'd title my response as "Big Box Stores and Dinosaurs"...an example of marketing incompatibilities. Sure, I remember the fantastic trains displays in the toy departments of the several large stores in Washington, D.C., where I grew up 60 years ago. Those Christmas corner window displays...celebrated in "A Christmas Story"...were something to behold.
But Dad bought all of our Lionel trains at a smaller, more specializing store...Superior Lock and Electric...which bore a strong interior resemblance to the photos I've seen of the infamous Madison Hardware in NYC. It was a 'trains store'. The guy behind the counter with the stub cigar clenched in his teeth and the ragged fedora on his noggin knew everything Dad needed to know. Not hardly a 'big box' store.
I'm constantly amazed by the confusion Mike Wolf seems to stir up amongst the armchair CEO's of this hobby. Just when I thought his chutzpah might be running low on steam, he entered the European market...and the jaw dropped again. Earlier, when he put a stone in his sling and went out to meet Goliath (the Union Pacific Railroad's licensing department) on behalf of the entire industry, competitors included, his stature, IMHO, grew to proportions of legend. I've watched Lionel enter the (much larger) HO trains market about 4 times in its history...and winced as they crashed and burned each time. I've watched MTH enter Standard Gauge, tinplate O, HO, Gauge 1...and now S;Mike hasn't walked away from any of those efforts. Of course, as with all brash and successful entrepreneurs, there have been some less memorable, less popular moments, too.
No, I'll tell you what I consider 'fuzzy': Lionel's infatuation and investment with NASCAR.
Good grief, Charlie Brown!
KD
We get an amazing number of young people come to visit our layout and help run trains. Many come multiple times a month. We are amazed at how much many of them already know about trains. I am optimistic this hobby will continue. Hold an open house for the families in your neighborhood in see if you agree. Back when we had the layout at home, we did mail box fliers to invite the neighbors.
As a retired big box store executive, it's no wonder the big box stores aren't successful with this. Not their focus or expertise.
I think that this isn't quite true. I had a drywall guy in my house a couple of weeks ago and I am pretty sure he bought his son's train set at a non-hobby shop. The Polar Express set (and others like it) which, IMO is a "starter set" now retails for over $300. Menard's also has some stuff which I would consider entry level although you can get some single cars and other stuff. I agree with the point about purchasing single engines or higher end sets but when someone is interested in those they are moving beyond "entry level".
And most of these visters are male and female, train set age, with at least one parent. And some REALLY know about 3R and/or REAL TRAINS. ...
Certainly glad that "most" are male and female! What are some of the other choices?
Ha Ha Ha!! That was exactly what I was wondering...
"dkdrd", You forgot to mention where he got his start. The standup buisness practice of selling williams trains out of his basement while he still worked for lionel.......
He also was a Lionel dealer during the same period.
Actually, he got his start WORKING for Williams. He later got into making reproduction tinplate, making connections with Korean manufacturers.
Lionel eventually contracted with MTH after twice rejecting proposals from Mike. Locomotives like Lionel's Scale PA's, Reading T1 and Mikado's were a result of this collaboration.
He also did work for Weaver.
Lionel cancelled Mike's dealership after he came out with his first locomotive, the Dash-8's, a locomotive project that MTH offered to Lionel, but they weren't interested in.
So, in effect, Lionel created MTH in it's present form.
Rusty
"Lionel eventually contracted with MTH after twice rejecting proposals from Mike."
Lionel contracted with MTH because Mike's partner at Samhongsa refused to deal directly with Lionel. Samhongsa apparently insisted on having Mike as a middle-man in the relationship.
"Lionel cancelled Mike's dealership after he came out with his first locomotive, the Dash-8's, a locomotive project that MTH offered to Lionel, but they weren't interested in."
Mike neglected to inform his boss at Lionel, Dick Kughn, that he was going ahead with the project on his own. Kughn, reasonably enough, saw this as an employee or sub-contractor, who participated in Lionel internal meetings, going into business to compete with Lionel.
Getting off the point here. I agree with Lee145. This hobby will eventually crash and burn. Don't get me wrong, I love trains but we are becoming a smaller and smaller group. When we baby boomers die off and the younger members of the hobby get older who will pick up the torch? I'm no fan of Mike but he is right. Who will go to Sears ,Macys or Walmart and drop $300-500 on a train set? Video games and iPhones are the new race car sets. The American family is not like JLC had in his time. Mom and Dad both work and when they come home do not engage with their children. Look at the old ads from Lionel and American Flyer. That family does not exist anymore.
also mike went to court after lionel canceled his dealership selling lionel trains-sticking mike with orders he could not fill-mike won that suit-you have to admire mike to battle a large company at that time-and history repeated itself again in 2000with another court battle which he won.
Just to be factually accurate, Mike did not "win" either lawsuit. Both were settled by negotiation rather than actual trial on the merits.
After my Aunt died, we divided up her remaining stuff. It was an education about what was valuable (or important) to different people. "Things" just didn't seem to matter as much as the intangibles she left to us. It impressed upon me that what I want to leave behind are the many ways I made impacts on the lives of others. If my heirs sell off (or even throw away) my train stuff, so what? I want to leave a more valuable and lasting legacy.
Just something to think about as we lament the "impending doom" to our hobby. In the end, does it matter?
Just to be factually accurate, Mike did not "win" either lawsuit. Both were settled by negotiation rather than actual trial on the merits.
Settling out of court is often a "win" for everyone. Instead of having a potential settlement contested for years (or decades), the plaintiff gets some compensation and the defendant gets to save face and (probably) save money. Everyone then gets to put things behind them and move forward with their lives and businesses. Sounds like a win to me.
Does any of the old guard here remember Landsteiner here when he used to post under the forum name "Neil" before he got kicked off the forum a few years ago? (No, not Neil Young)
Welcome back to the OGR forum Neil! I wonder how long you're going to last this time around. I could detect your posting style a mile away since the early years of the OGR forum. I was actually beginning to miss you. 
It seems that a lot of people dislike Mike Wolf because he dared to go into business in competition with the beloved company making "Lionel" trains.
When I was still purchasing newly made trains, the brand really didn't matter, although the vast majority of my purchases were Lionel.
Mike Wolf's vision is cloudy at best, and one must consider the person Mike is when he makes these comments. You have to take Mike's comments with a grain of salt, just thinking off the top of my head of the things Mike and his cohorts have told us over the years about what MTH was bringing out and how they were going to lead the industry, most of that has NEVER come to fruition, like swinging bells, smoking whistles, a new better designed remote, just pop into my head at the moment. Seen any new US engines especially steam from them, not just another release of the same old engines? Also have you been to MTH's headquarters lately? The building which used to be full of employees is mostly empty now, while Lionel is growing. Heck there isn't even a person to answer the phones there anymore, it's the electronic menu or leave a message in the general delivery mailbox that never gets heard now. And let's not get into the almost non-existent parts and service there. They are relegated to putting PS-3 boards into the same engines they have been making for years now, what little development is in HO and European so Mike's opinion carries no weight here.
"Lionel eventually contracted with MTH after twice rejecting proposals from Mike."
Lionel contracted with MTH because Mike's partner at Samhongsa refused to deal directly with Lionel. Samhongsa apparently insisted on having Mike as a middle-man in the relationship.
"Lionel cancelled Mike's dealership after he came out with his first locomotive, the Dash-8's, a locomotive project that MTH offered to Lionel, but they weren't interested in."
Mike neglected to inform his boss at Lionel, Dick Kughn, that he was going ahead with the project on his own. Kughn, reasonably enough, saw this as an employee going into business to compete with Lionel.
So, just to be sure of your position:
Mike is evil incarnate and Lionel is angelic?
I want to be sure I have it right.
Rusty
Anyone remember when Mike Wolf was quoted as saying that command control would never catch on, back in the mid-1990s, and that MTH wouldn't be making it? Or when he claimed to own factories in China so MTH's production was guaranteed? No one's perfect, to be sure, but those are statements that don't inspire faith in his infallibility or objectivity at this late date.
Landsteiner (aka former forum member Neil),
Lionel released TMCC, and made the command codes public.
The first couple of years after TMCC's, release, Lionel's stance at the time was that they had no intention of offering aftermarket upgrade kits when enthusiasts asked of the matter.
Around that same time, 3rd party skunkwork places like ERR, TAS, IC, and DD were developing their own, much to the happiness of command-control enthusiasts.
Fast forward to when Jerry Calabrese took over the helm at Lionel, he went on record saying that making the TMCC command codes public was a mistake, and hinted that he was looking into what ERR, TAS, IC, and DD were doing as potentially illegal. Fast forward to now, Legacy is released, but Legacy-specific command codes are kept proprietary. And what happened to all those companies since JC took over? ERR & IC were bought out by Lionel, TAS no longer sells aftermarket kits to the public, and DD is out of business.
So Lionel never changes their tune, Neil?
Well for what it's worth...when I first got back into O-Gauge back in 2000, I went with MTH over Lionel. I was happy with MTH, except for RealTrax of course (don't get me started), but over the years, I began to dislike MTH for some of the reasons people have cited in this thread, and switched to Lionel, despite the higher cost in most cases for me, based on the products I like and purchase.
It started with vintage post war, and now Neil Young's signature series. Plus, I have a warm spot in my heart for Mr Kughn and many Lionel Train executives past and present. I do like Mike Wolf to some degree, but I cannot seem to get a "true bead" on him personally.
"Lionel eventually contracted with MTH after twice rejecting proposals from Mike."
Lionel contracted with MTH because Mike's partner at Samhongsa refused to deal directly with Lionel. Samhongsa apparently insisted on having Mike as a middle-man in the relationship.
"Lionel cancelled Mike's dealership after he came out with his first locomotive, the Dash-8's, a locomotive project that MTH offered to Lionel, but they weren't interested in."
Mike neglected to inform his boss at Lionel, Dick Kughn, that he was going ahead with the project on his own. Kughn, reasonably enough, saw this as an employee going into business to compete with Lionel.
So, just to be sure of your position:
Mike is evil incarnate and Lionel is angelic?
I want to be sure I have it right.
Rusty
While not being a fan of the poster from the past I still have to say that is a heck of a big jump from what he posted and how you interpret it, seems like you are trying to stir up something here with such a comment? What went on in the past is long over with.
"Lionel eventually contracted with MTH after twice rejecting proposals from Mike."
Lionel contracted with MTH because Mike's partner at Samhongsa refused to deal directly with Lionel. Samhongsa apparently insisted on having Mike as a middle-man in the relationship.
"Lionel cancelled Mike's dealership after he came out with his first locomotive, the Dash-8's, a locomotive project that MTH offered to Lionel, but they weren't interested in."
Mike neglected to inform his boss at Lionel, Dick Kughn, that he was going ahead with the project on his own. Kughn, reasonably enough, saw this as an employee going into business to compete with Lionel.
So, just to be sure of your position:
Mike is evil incarnate and Lionel is angelic?
I want to be sure I have it right.
Rusty
While not being a fan of the poster from the past I still have to say that is a heck of a big jump from what he posted and how you interpret it, seems like you are trying to stir up something here with such a comment?
Just want to be sure of his position. He's stated his opinion, I've stated my assessment of his opinion. He is fully capable of confirming, denying, rejecting or ignoring that assessment.
BTW, I find positives and negatives in both companies.
Rusty
...
Trains in this day and age is a tough, if not impossible sell. They're grossly expensive and completely overwhelmed by the electronic age of entertainment.
...
And that entertainment factor is HIGHLY rooted in the nature of instant gratification.
Let's face it folks... while I give kudos to every attempt at making the hobby visible to today's youth at every chance we can, the reality is the sweet-spot that actually sustains this segment of the hobby as a viable business model is still largely middle-aged to retired guys (and a few gals) with disposable income. The baby boomer generation will likely be the last easily identifiable group en masse to embrace our little corner of the world.
True, it's absolutely fabulous to see the wide-eyed look of children viewing modular train layouts at shows or permanent layouts they might visit on occasion. But I can't help but wonder if those are just momentary expressions only to be later engulfed by the modern trappings of today's technologies that fulfill their whims almost immediately. Really... can you even imagine today's kids WAITING two years for pieces of rolling stock or special locomotives to be delivered? Or worse yet, almost FIVE years for a complete California Zephyr passenger train??? No way!!! That's practically a lifetime in their minds... and in some cases even taxing our own patience to boot!!!
Completely different business model than the one that lives in the world of big box stores today.
David
"
So, just to be sure of your position:
Mike is evil incarnate and Lionel is angelic?
I want to be sure I have it right."
Perhaps I shouldn't dignify this jibe with a response, but what the hey .
No.
...
Trains in this day and age is a tough, if not impossible sell. They're grossly expensive and completely overwhelmed by the electronic age of entertainment.
...
And that entertainment factor is HIGHLY rooted in the nature of instant gratification.
Let's face it folks... while I give kudos to every attempt at making the hobby visible to today's youth at every chance we can, the reality is the sweet-spot that actually sustains this segment of the hobby as a viable business model is still largely middle-aged to retired guys (and a few gals) with disposable income. The baby boomer generation will likely be the last easily identifiable group en masse to embrace our little corner of the world.
True, it's absolutely fabulous to see the wide-eyed look of children viewing modular train layouts at shows or permanent layouts they might visit on occasion. But I can't help but wonder if those are just momentary expressions only to be later engulfed by the modern trappings of today's technologies that fulfill their whims almost immediately. Really... can you even imagine today's kids WAITING two years for pieces of rolling stock or special locomotives to be delivered? Or worse yet, almost FIVE years for a complete California Zephyr passenger train??? No way!!! That's practically a lifetime in their minds... and in some cases even taxing our own patience to boot!!!
Completely different business model than the one that lives in the world of big box stores today.
David
SAD but TRUE...great point David
I don't think I remotely said Lionel was infallible or their leadership knew what the future holds. They've made some clunker decisions too, and admitted to them in many cases. I was responding to similar assertions about Mike Wolf. Who never has publicly admitted to being wrong about anything, at least to my knowledge.
One of the notable things over the last two decades of competition is that Lionel's leadership, whoever the heck they were, has almost never had anything negative to say about Mike Wolf or MTH, at least publicly. Perhaps that's a lesson Mike Wolf could learn from? It doesn't add to your legacy and reputation for being reasonable to run down your competition, their strategy or their people.
The interview in CTT was notable for Mike Wolf, without naming them, criticizing Lionel's attempts to put train sets in larger scale retailers (a success for everyone) and bring some production back to the US (perhaps futile, but a noble effort). Mike's comments, to me, sound more like sour grapes or combativeness than analysis. Not the way to win over anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
Wow! Ford vs. Chevrolet!!! In HO there were NMRA standards that made it all compatible...if it ain't compatible and I have to buy two or more proprietary electronic systems to run it, I refuse, and that just confuses and puts off people who might be interested in the hobby. (not that there weren't screwups in HO with the "NMRA" coupler long since replaced with Kadees or similar, but I hope, compatible). Since three rail did settle on the same couplers, how come not on the same stinkin' compatible operating system?
Correct me if I am wrong, but does not MTH DCS allow the operation of Lionel TMCC locomotives albiet by attaching the MTH TCS system to a TMCC component?
Whereas Lionels system does not allow MTH DCS locomotives to run?
Would seem to me that at MTH's own cost, they allow you to run Lionel's (a competitors) trains and thus adds to Lionels profits by allowing us to buy Lionel trains that run on an MTH system.
Lionel does not allow this on their system correct?
Can someone provide a link for this interview?
Wow! Ford vs. Chevrolet!!! In HO there were NMRA standards that made it all compatible...if it ain't compatible and I have to buy two or more proprietary electronic systems to run it, I refuse, and that just confuses and puts off people who might be interested in the hobby. (not that there weren't screwups in HO with the "NMRA" coupler long since replaced with Kadees or similar, but I hope, compatible). Since three rail did settle on the same couplers, how come not on the same stinkin' compatible operating system?
The NMRA standards have done nothing for the Ford vs Chevy arguments in HO or N either, I can promise you. It's Digitrax vs NCE, Athearn vs Broadway Limited vs MTH vs whatever else.
All forums find their cantankerous people, this one no exception. I do find the brand loyalty to Lionel humorous, considering the true background of the company, it's founder, and the many owners over the years.
The dying hobby thing is funny too, it's evolving like every other business. Mike Wolf seems to have made a pretty good go from very humble beginnings. He has been wrong, of course, like many other entrepreneurs, no one is infallible. Most success stories are full of many failures too.
So to all the hand ringers here, have fun, it's entertaining if nothing else............
I, for one, hope they keep MTH and Lionel trainsets out of big box stores. I have walked the toy aisles of Walmart and Target. The quality of toys seems really poor compared to the stuff we had when I was a kid in the early-mid 80's. I hate the idea of Lionel and MTH bowing to the pressure of Walmart to cut production costs by any means necessary. I want the quality of MTH and Lionel trains remain at current levels or even get better, even if that means paying more to hobby shops and online retailers.
My apologies, I could have sworn I read that in the MTH hard cover book.
Chipset, just for the record, Mike met his wife in Maryland. She was a Maryland resident. We are good friends with Mike and his wife. She has no connection to anyone in the hobby. She is also a great person and fun to be with. I have heard these stories many times over the years. Many guys like to post things they heard from someone, somewhere and not facts. I just gave you the facts.
so Mike's opinion carries no weight here.
Really?
My, my, my...
Charlie also gave correct information.
With that concept can you imagine the number of folks who've never heard of MTH???
I thought MTH was a small outfit knocking off Lionel products until the lawsuit gained notoriety on this forum.
What, me worry?
...and for me as well much of the time dating back to our AOL sparring.
But the good Dr. Neil is still around, just not on this forum and one or two others. He has mellowed a bit--still the #1 Lionel banner waver though--but I recall that he recently said the same "mellowing" thing about me somewhere else in cyberspace. 
Credit where credit is due: The fellow is one heck of a fine writer. Very literate and a lot of fun to read. 
Just to address the couple of posts that indicated that trains were on their way out: I noticed the full-page add that Menards has in CTT the front inside cover no less! They are marketing some custom stuff - some from Woodland Scenics.
Menards (a big box store) is somehow able to make enough money to make a push to advertise in a hobby magazine. I find this encouraging. I haven't decided which items to purchase, but I intend to throw some of my business their way.
Multiple Lionel sets are available for under $200.
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