They closing the doors? WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge.
We seem to be collectively going thru all phases of grief.
Glad you are all here.
I agree Alan. I hope the MTH crew will be at York in October (if they have it) so we can all say good bye.
Just like to mention: I have put all of my MTH engines and most of my rolling stock (as Mike Hall from Rust Valley Restorers likes to put it) in the NFS category. That is Not For Sale!
@Hudson J1e posted:I agree Alan. I hope the MTH crew will be at York in October (if they have it) so we can all say good bye.
And I hope they're there so we can just ask them what the new company name is. 
With all that's happening in this country and the world today, try to remember that we are talking about toys, a hobby, and they certainly aren't "investments", but merely purchases we made with discretionary income. The sky is not falling!
@Landsteiner posted:For the people wondering if BLI would be interested in MTH's HO and perhaps O tooling, one might consider that BLI is owned by Bob Grubba, who hasn't exactly been Mike Wolf's favorite colleague in the industry
. Seems unlikely at best.
Just need to see how things play out. The sky isn't falling, at least not yet. OGR and CTT do not rely on MTH for significant revenue, for one thing, so I'm keeping my subscriptions active. I would advise everyone to do subscribe to both if you can afford it. Supports the industry and the hobby.
Past grievances in business often times mean little to nothing. I have seen businesses that went through nasty court battles turn around and partner, sell to each other, etc.
Fact is unless you know Bob Grubba personally, you have no idea what he may or may not do.
@TexasSP posted:Hardly an accurate statement. DCC is a standard protocol. Modern versions do everything DCS and Legacy does and then some. The interfaces have also become very user friendly and you can mix and match.
The first systems were also about 30 years ago not 40.
It's obvious you have no current DCC experience. Talk to the 2 rail guys and they can show you how far DCC has come. Also the base of Legacy which is TMCC is almost 30 years old as well.
Haha. You may want to check your facts and research who you are talking to first next time.
The origins of DCC were developed in the early 1980’s for Marklin and Arnold. Yes, it wasn’t until the 90’s that we adopted it as part of the NMRA/DCC standard.
it’s “obvious” that I have no DCC experience? Lol... I happen to be a 2 rail modeler and have used DCC since the late 90’s. I have also used TMCC, Legacy, and DCS since their inceptions. There is simply no way you can tell me that DCC is as user friendly because it just isn’t. You are doing everyone that isn’t knowledgeable on the subject a disservice by saying that it is. It can be made to work well and where it really shines is as an accepted standard, which DCS and Legacy/TMCC never achieved.
I’m glad to hear that the DCS system will continue to be supported. It is easy to learn, works well, and there are a zillion engines out there running that system.
Jackson, I agree the sky is not falling but to many of us MTH was a beloved company. I am sure everyone agrees that MW should get and deserves a great retirement. We just don’t want to see a company we have come to know and love go away.
Many factors in this news. But remember Mike Wolf has a little more insight into China than the vast majority of us. He may just be ahead of the curve on this,
@Hudson J1e posted:...the sky is not falling but to many of us MTH was a beloved company. I am sure everyone agrees that MW should get and deserves a great retirement. We just don’t want to see a company we have come to know and love go away.
Exactly. And that perception was enhanced by the charismatic personality of its founder.
MELGAR
I saw my first Mike's Train House set running at hardware store on the square in West Plains, MO in 2002. That window display got me back into O-gauge trains! Thank you, Mike Wolf! Hope to see you at York this fall.
MTH did bring big changes to the hobby, but our hobby is not doing well. There are just too many trains for sale and less and less customers to purchase them. I do think this may have played a big part in Mike's decision to walk away. Lets face it, how many of us can keep buying new trains every year. I guess new engines are the backbone for profit, but being retired when I have the cash to spend on a engine or rolling stock I look for good used ones. Thanks Mike for taking the name TOY TRAINS out of the hobby and giving us high quality models, great variety and just beautiful scale models.
"Fact is unless you know Bob Grubba personally, you have no idea what he may or may not do."
Turns out I do know Bob . I don't know what he'd do, of course, since I haven't asked him. But I'm pretty confident he has reasons he might not be interested.
@jonnyspeed posted:Haha. You may want to check your facts and research who you are talking to first next time.
The origins of DCC were developed in the early 1980’s for Marklin and Arnold. Yes, it wasn’t until the 90’s that we adopted it as part of the NMRA/DCC standard.
it’s “obvious” that I have no DCC experience? Lol... I happen to be a 2 rail modeler and have used DCC since the late 90’s. I have also used TMCC, Legacy, and DCS since their inceptions. There is simply no way you can tell me that DCC is as user friendly because it just isn’t. You are doing everyone that isn’t knowledgeable on the subject a disservice by saying that it is. It can be made to work well and where it really shines is as an accepted standard, which DCS and Legacy/TMCC never achieved.
I’m glad to hear that the DCS system will continue to be supported. It is easy to learn, works well, and there are a zillion engines out there running that system.
As long as you feel you're special, that's fine, lol.
There are many options out there and DCC of 30 years ago when first released by Lenz in 1989 has come a long way. Don't forget electric car technology first arose in the 19th century, and well.........
In the digital world, all of these systems are OLD.
@shawn posted:Or, it will moderate prices.. The more you make....the cheaper you can bargain for the manufacture.
That rarely happens when you move towards a monopoly, while it is cheaper to build things in bulk, businesses without competition price to maximize profits, so if Lionel now sells 2000 instead of 1000 of a product, the fixed costs are spread over a larger run, so the profit/unit goes up. Not to mention when there is a semi monopoly or monopoly, they will charge what the market will bear. My guess is that the prices won't change much, with the prices currently charged I think increasing prices would go over like a lead balloon, in large part because trains are discretionary spending, not critical spending.
@AlanRail posted:good luck to Mike. things happen. especially these days.
How do any of you know that LIONEL or Atlas or Menards isn't a breath away from closing.?
Answer: YOU DON'T!
I know Menard's isn't, because they aren't a toy train company, they are a big home improvement store chain that likely has done well during the current situation. Could they shut down their train operations? Sure, but given it is a sideline for them and they are bringing out new products, I doubt it.
As far as Lionel and Atlas goes, one indication is if they are bringing out new products, if they were in financial straits they wouldn't be. Atlas could of course get out of the O business if they aren't making money there, but I haven't seen any rumblings about that. Given that Lionel and Atlas are private companies, there is no way to know for sure, it is a lot easier to see if a public company is in trouble since they have to report financials, but I suspect, at least where we are right now, they aren't shutting down in the near future.
@artfull dodger posted:I think the last person that had Mike's passion and drive with toy trains was J.L Cowen during his tenure with Lionel back in the day. Mike definatly got big "L" off its duff to up their game. He drove the industry just as Josh did in the Prewar and Postwar eras. I wish him many good years in retirement to enjoy whatever pastimes he enjoys, both trains and otherwise. Cheers. AD
Don't forget about Richard Kughn during his 10 year ownership of Lionel. Without him Lionel may not have survived. During his time innovations such as Railsounds, the creation of LionTech with Neil Young which would eventually create TMCC.
In an interview he once mentioned he was warned by his accountants that purchasing Lionel may not be a good financial decision, yet he purchased it in spite of this for his enthusiasm with the Lionel brand.
Just to add what everyone else is saying about Mike, he is a ball of positive energy, listens, tries to do the very best of what is asked, etc., etc. Heck, to put into perspective of how much he means to us all, I have deleted from this morning emails nearly 140 replies, almost all of them from this topic alone.
Seeing Mike on TW's video from. A few years ago when he was at the factory, you couldn't put an anchor on him to hold him in place. He moved and talked with the excitement of a Christmas morning child opening trains galore.
@maint posted:MTH did bring big changes to the hobby, but our hobby is not doing well. There are just too many trains for sale and less and less customers to purchase them. I do think this may have played a big part in Mike's decision to walk away. Lets face it, how many of us can keep buying new trains every year. I guess new engines are the backbone for profit, but being retired when I have the cash to spend on a engine or rolling stock I look for good used ones. Thanks Mike for taking the name TOY TRAINS out of the hobby and giving us high quality models, great variety and just beautiful scale models.
I have concerns for the future of the hobby, and the fact that a buyer for the whole of MTH hasn't emerged adds to those concerns. However, anyone who thinks there aren't any train buyers out there should take a look at Stout's current auction - lots of MTH and Weaver (nothing I'd call particularly collectible) - many of the bids are already high and it's still several days until the auction.
"WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge."
I guess you may be straight out of luck then. My condolences.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I can't even get boards now from MTH parts, so the statement that DCS isn't going away kinda' flies in the face of reality, at least for me! Stuff is stacking up with no parts to repair it, and MTH keeps shipping everything but the boards that are listed as "available". Sorry I don't share your optimism, but I'm kinda' results based.
John-
I don't know why they show available on the website, but it is possible this is a supply chain issue, I see all kinds of weird manifestations of this, like a local Lowes that literally had no belt sander belts at all, so it is possible the boards haven't come in yet.
It is interesting they talk about improving the PS3 boards/DCS, that implies that they have seen some interest in enhanced features, which in turn implies someone building an engine to take advantage of them (though it depends, if it is something like improved sound, that would upgrade an existing engine).
I feel Bachmann/Williams will cherry from the rooling after MTH closes. If no buyer emerges then the tooling is scrap value. That is when you buy. Tooling will not leave China.
I have to give Mike credit for bringing scale and detailed locomotives /rolling stock to "O" gauge.
However, I feel that when the lawsuit with Lionel was all settled and done, Mike lost some interest in "O", after all he spent a great deal of time/money and ended up with the same settlement he would have had at the very beginning without a lawsuit.
At the same time Atlas and later Lionel started to produce highly detailed locomotives and rolling stock. True MTH was already producing nicely detailed items, but started lousing ground to the much higher detail items being produced by these other manufactures.
When I came back into the hobby MTH had just introduced DCS, each new catalog featured exciting new items, subway sets, locomotives, scale signals end of train devices, European trains, just to name a few. However, over at least the last five years the catalogs became stale, mostly re-runs of existing items done over and over. Case and point the only new "O" gauge item introduced by MTH during this period was the 44 tonner. Mikes focus seemed to move from "O" to "HO" where he introduced some very nice models. Unfortunately, there were issues with some of the "HO" offerings. This coupled DCS offered by MTH over DCC may have been a little problematic. MTH may not have done as well as hoped in this market, after all the "HO" guys are no where near as forgiving as us "O" gauges.
So i'm not surprised that Mike has decided to retire given the current state of the market and the world. I wish him the very best and thank him for his contributions.
I agree, Mr Kuhn was an excellent steward for Lionel. Dick brought back the respect and quality to the Lionel line that was lost thru the MPC era of cheapening everything. He revived the scale NYC Hudson and many other Hudson locomotives and pushed the envelope with sound for the era. Hopefully some or all of the MTH line survives with another company in the future. With all the current issues, it might be a bit before someone steps forward. There is time yet for an interested party to come to the table from the sounds of things. AD
I'm not a bit surprised at this when looking at the moves MTH has made over the years. The model train market is complicated, overpopulated, and saddled with baggage, some of which goes back to the early days of the hobby.
Jeff C
NYC 428....
I'm sorry to say, I tend to agree with your statement "However, over at least the last five years the catalogs became stale, mostly re-runs of existing items done over and over."
I have also noticed that (and there have been severals post here about the same thing ) not a lot of new, innovative items were being released.....catalogs contained mostly reissues of existing items in new paint schemes.
Items like DCS, Mel's Drive-In, Car Wash, animated Fire House, etc. were all ground breaking accessories. But its been quite a while since anything like those came to market.
Retail is like selling lettuce....it can only stay on the shelf for so long before it get's old and will no longer sell......
I find this thread fascinating, even though my layout and collection are only conventional Williams and Lionel postwar. However, I have no idea what your are talking about TMCC, DCC, DCS, BVD, STP, etc.
No way to know how this is going to play out, the fact that it looks like a group is going to support DCS is interesting. This is obviously pure speculation, but it could allow third parties like Third rail, Atlas and others who now license TMCC, to use DCS (I assume that with part of this, unlike under MTH, would be to license PS3 or build PS3 boards outside firms could use). That would be a double benefit, it also might force Lionel to offer Legacy boards to outside people if that happened, given PS3 is much more advanced than TMCC.
I suspect no one firm is going to buy MTH, otherwise why spin off the DCS group like that,you would figure someone buying MTH would take it lock, stock and barrel. The warranty support is another clue, if a new product has a warranty I believe the firm has to make accommodations to allow for service until the last item passes its date,it means Mike is nowhere close to finding a buyer of the whole thing.
My guess would be that it will be sold in parts, someone like a Williams/Bachman might buy the tooling for engines, Menards might buy tooling for the cars, though I doubt it someone could buy the tooling for scale trax. For Bachman if PS3 is available, they could offer MTH engines or even their own with that in it while not having to support it directly.
As far as why Mike retired at this point, there could be a lot of reasons, he could simply be tired of running the business and with no heir apparent, decided it was better to close it/sell it off. It could be (God forbid) he is ill, you just don't know why someone would close a business that otherwise seems to be doing ok. Is he getting out of Dodge while the time is good, IE sees dark clouds on the future of the business? Maybe, it could be another reason that factored into it, but we don't know. Trying to discern the future of the hobby, the future of building stuff in China vs the US and so forth on one event like this is like reading tea leaves, only Mike and maybe some people close to him know why he chose now to retire. Could be he has worked hard for 40 years, has made enough money to be able to retire now and enjoy the lifestyle he wants, and wants to be able to catch the early bird dinner specials in Florida
I would like to see Sunset/3rd Rail acquire MTH tooling and produce the Premier and Railking lines, perhaps in lesser volume than MTH was doing. This might not affect their current business which is in a somewhat more upscale market segment. Sunset already has a significant presence in the O gauge market and manufactures successfully in China. Acquisition of MTH would make them large enough to compete effectively with Lionel, which I believe is necessary to sustain a healthy marketplace. However, I expect that Sunset/3rd Rail will be satisfied to keep their business as it is right now.
MELGAR
Menard's that's the answer.
@superwarp1 posted:Menard's that's the answer.
Somehow, I doubt it.
I guess folks are hoping for $99.95 Big Boys in a plastic bubble...
Rusty
You might have made the best decisions by sticking to conventional. Like Lionel of old, simple trains need no factory service. For the most part, with simple maintenance, they run flawlessly. I was just considering selling my Williams engines recently. Now I need them for back up down the road if my digital trains need service from a defunct manufacturer. That has always been a concern of mine with electronics. Having invested so much in my layout, I can be assured that those non digital trains will keep me into the hobby forever.
On the other hand, I can honestly say I have fully enjoyed the digital era and, as so many have said, it got a lot of us back into trains and it proved to be FUN.
Regarding the comments about MTH's lack of innovation, they used innovation to expand into HO and European trains. R&D budgets can only go so far. They used those funds to diversify instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. I have been very pleased with MTH catalogs of late. Reissuing some of the accessories, for example, was welcomed by me. And what's wrong with adding another F3 with a different paint scheme to honor a new road name? I have a CNW on order now.
I'd be extremely surprised to see 3rd Rail/Sunset do such a thing--with the possible exception of the former S Helper S scale line (in the event that it was available dirt cheap).
It seems to me that MTH exiting O scale helps 3rd Rail every bit as much as it helps Lionel.
Jeff C
@Jamos posted:……. WTH I hate Lionel for O gauge.
Why @Jamos?
I'm just not a fan overpriced outdated controls I mean I have the legacy controller it looks like a 1980 design. Bluetooth is nice but not as many features. Smoke output sub par. Like I said love MTH and using my app to control my trains with the high selection of souds.
@superwarp1 posted:Menard's that's the answer.
Menards is not an OEM train company.
Great, just what we want…Masonite trains. 
MTH had a license wit Siemens to buil scale moels of their stuff, I believe. What happens to that?
@Charlienassau posted:Just got the newsletter announcement. Will post
Charlie,
Nice to see your still around... I have been mia for 5yrs but this notification justified a response.
Mike was the rebel that lit the fire in many of us at a time when old tired Lionel was slogging thru the muck of old tooling no innovation and living off their golden past.
I want to thank Mike Wolf for his foresight, dare to dream, and tenacity to make MTH the leader in our hobby.. Mike made a visit once to my old club Golden Gate TTOS. when DCS was first released, I bugged him to make it and he went out of his way to accommodate that request..
Life for me has moved on and the collection is shrinking, but if not for Mike. I would have never had the pleasure of relieving my youth for a number of yrs.
Thank you Mike. and all the best to you and yours in retirement
Railking
Very shocked that Mike would be closing MTH. It's sales are still very strong and cannot imagine why he would not sell the business. I would not have entered O gauge without MTH, and my layout is DCS and Legacy and way prefer DCS. Not going to change....no way. Glad to see DCS continues, as given my huge investment in MTH products, that would have been unethical IMO to stop support there. Hope MTH gets sold and continues in some format, as Lionel products are getting overpriced with questionable quality control, and they have had a lack of products in the road names I like. 2020 is turning out to be a crappy year all around it seems.
As a toy train runner, Lionchief+ line is very good, and that, along with their starter sets which give good bang for the buck and are fun out of the box, there will be plenty of new product to buy if I have the mind. I will miss MTH subways big time, though. I have several MTH engines and I'm sure I'll continue to be able to run them. I will be buying another z1000, however: gotta keep auto mode going!
And- if all else fails in the model train Zombie apocalypse, I can always go back where I started: Lionel post war. I still have engines from my childhood that are swell, and run and run and run....
@SIRT posted:
Menards is not an OEM train company.
Great, just what we want…Masonite trains.
Neither is MTH or Lionel. They don't own the tooling. The factories in China do. For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
@SantaFeJim posted:Really? Can you give me 1 good reason why Lionel would even entertain any thought of buying MTH?
Their number one competitor just announce that they are going to fold. Lionel's best move is to sit back light a victory cigar and pour themselves a large drink and slap each other on the back. Declare victory without having fired a shot.
That victory maybe short lived. With Lionel's price increase's I know it's hard for me to buy their products. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Mike has said on several occasions that he, MTH, owns the factories.
@rdj92807 posted:It's sales are still very strong
Just curious...how do you know this? And if you do know, it would be interesting to hear what the actual number is.
I suspect that "ownership" has a different meaning in China.
We all owe a debt of gratitude to the 3 W's, Weaver, Williams, Wolf. They changed O-gauge into high quality model railroading. The pre- and post-war Lioonel were durable, solid, and not particularly good operational performers. After the 50's, their quality went downhill to the popint Lionel was unattractive--I bought nothing. Then in 1990, I came across an ad for a Weaver 0-6-0, in brass. I ordered one in P&WV livery, and eventually the hobby shop told me it could not deliver. I phoned around and found that Mike's Train House in Columbia had one, so I ordered it. A few months later went up there to see what these new manufacturers were making, and bought a Weaver C-630 LV livery, from a guy named Mike. When he released his own line (before the R-K/Premier split, I got hooked on his products and, with a few Williams items, have been hooked on MTH ever since. (Incidentally, I converted all those old Weavers, Williams, and MTHs to PS2 with supercaps, and all still run superbly.
Were it not for the 3 Ws, I'm sure Lionel would never have produced the scalish locos it does today, with the electronics. Thanks, Mike, for helping to make O-gauge attractive again.
@RJR posted:I suspect that "ownership" has a different meaning in China.
Agreed......the retired Analyst in me that worked on some of the largest mergers in history, I'd like to know the details of 'owning' any assets in China. Doubt we ever will know.......but the norm is no one owns anything alone.....everyone has the government as a partner.
And as owner of more than 50 MTH locos....I do say THANKS MIKE!
The S scale product line could be "sold" to a company like Fox Valley Models, so that that the line could be produced all the way through at least one more time.
Andrew
BTW, MTH trains can be controlled by Lionel transformers(ex: CW-80).
I first came in contact with Mike back when he had a store in Maryland selling Williams and Lionel. That was in the last years before my father died, and I picked up a few things from Mike for my father's train board.
Mike did a great deal to move O gauge towards greater realism. There were a number of other early players in this trend though that have been forgotten: Weaver, Intermountain and Pecos River Brass as well as Williams, which Mike had a hand in, spring to mind. While some in the 1980s were celebrating the revival of postwar Lionel under new leadership in Michigan, others already were trending towards 3 Rail Scale.
I have been involved in enough successful and unsuccessful business transfers over the years to know there are a host of reasons why some happen and some don't. Without inside knowledge I wouldn't presume that I knew why Mike has made his move. Better to simply wish Mike the best and hope enough of MTH carries forward under some new ownership to allow us to continue enjoying our hobby.
Sad to read.
But, good for Mike! Well deserved! Heck of a ride, pal!
Somewhat 'spooky' for me, though. Last month a thread was started to recognize the great contributions of Midge at MTH Parts. Someone opined how troubling it would be should she retire. On May 20 I countered:
"Returning to the post-retirement concerns....
I have as many concerns about the company's future 'post-Wolf'!!
Then, again, his genes and occupational stamina should outlast mine......"
Here in Michigan, our store (LHS) was finally permitted to have a limited number of customers within the store on Tuesday, May 26, the day after Memorial weekend. After 20+ years of this second career....behind the counter (Counter intelligence, we call it.) in the Trains Dept., I turned in my 2-week notice of my second retirement (first was after 31.5 years at an automotive corporation). The face mask, the plastic sheet counter shields separating us from the customer, the other Covid-19 protocol requirements....too much for this old phart to adjust to. It was time. Last Friday, June 5 was 'the end'.
Then, this.....Mike Wolf does, indeed, announce his scheduled retirement, as we learned on June 8.
I don't know about the genes, of course, but I guess for both of us our "occupational stamina" has dropped its fire.
ANYTHING.......to take the mind off 'other' news of the world around us.
KD
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FWIW, I just knew this was coming. You could tell because, for at least a decade, there haven’t been DCS software updates, new O gauge models, or improvements such as substituting flanged wheels for blind wheels.
The announcement makes no sense. Isn’t it normal to sell a company before retiring? Also, I'm skeptical about DCS and parts. The announcement is vague in regard to those two issues.
Endless speculation, based on very few facts.
As a semi-retired news magazine editor/publisher, I think everyone should wait until there is more information—beyond what has been stated in the initial letters to retailers and individuals—available, before going off—what's the old expression? Ah, yes—half cocked.
Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
I haven’t seen Right of Way industries mentioned as a contributor to changing the hobby. I believe he was also one of the first to retire and close the company.
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
While I'm no longer a TCA member, York is so much bigger than any one manufacturer. Besides, there is all that secondary market stuff to sell and buy.
Rusty
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
It won't. What did MTH do to advertise for the York Meet? They mentioned it on Social media but beyond that none of the manufacturers have done much to promote York. I will give them credit though they were committed to the spring meet.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks York needs all the majors. It was a members only meet before they all showed up and most likely will be again.
@superwarp1 posted:For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
Well, it's a whole lot more than that. All the innovation, design (including all the electronics), organization, coordination and direction to and with the Chinese factories (most of the employees of which don't know a locomotive from a bicycle) who simply build what they're told to and are given plans for (whether it's a model train or a Barbie doll), sales, advertising, shipping and delivery arrangements are all done (or have been done) by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the rest.
@MartyE posted:It won't. What did MTH do to advertise for the York Meet? They mentioned it on Social media but beyond that none of the manufacturers have done much to promote York.
Actually it will mean more loss of revenue for the Eastern Division. It costs a pretty good chunk of change to display there.
Pete
@Andrew-Porter posted:Endless speculation, based on very few facts.
As a semi-retired news magazine editor/publisher, I think everyone should wait until there is more information—beyond what has been stated in the initial letters to retailers and individuals—available, before going off—what's the old expression? Ah, yes—half cocked.
Really???? Half of our hobby is going away and we are just to say 'OK...nice' and not discuss? As I've said....MTH is WHY I am in O3r......it's worth discussing informed or not......and I think it's been very civil and smart so far.
I know many love Menards...and that is fine. I hope they go nowhere near MTH as far as business is concerned. I have had nothing but junky Chinese, defective, poorly made products and the worst attitude and customer service on earth from them. It was my experience....yours could be different....but I shudder to think of that company going anywhere near MTH.
I want to apologize to everyone for bringing this on. Until a year ago, I was strictly Lionel and WBB but fell in love with my brother-in-law's MTH engines and bought my first Rail King Imperial, then another, and then a couple more. I think I jinxed us.
Seriously, MTH makes/made nice products and I hope we aren't orphaned. I have a few questions but don't want to hijack this topic, so I'll post separately.
@AlanRail posted:We seem to be collectively going thru all phases of grief.
The ones I imagine are going through grief are the dealers who have been specializing in selling MTH trains. They will have to completely reorganize and establish new business relationships, and make lots of other changes if they want to stay in business. Clearly they can't make it by just selling MTH parts and DCS upgrades for trains that are no longer made, even assuming there is no interruption in that supply chain, which there likely will be. MTH parts were slow before this happened!
I also suppose sales of remaining engine inventories will experience a slowdown, and possibly require price deductions. Regardless of the announcements being made about continued support, many potential buyers are going to shy away from purchasing new engines made by a company that has gone out of the business of making trains.
It seems likely that Lionel will now be making larger production runs, but that's not a bad thing for them, obviously.
DENIAL that's one of the phases
Start up cost for a business is huge .. buying a business is very limited potential customers .
when I am ready to sale or retire I sure wont announce it to ANYONE.
I would either owner sale it or make the deal to someone before anyone knew it was for sale..
I be too afraid of not getting my full potential of money for my business.
(unless I made so much money ... and it was time to let someone have it for cheap and I get a write off for my gains taxes)
but its his call.. good luck and thank-you for what you have done ....daniel
Speaking of the York meet, MTH had a tremendous impact in the mid to late 1990s.
In the late 80s and early 90s before MTH, the collector frenzy was still near its peak. Member and dealer halls alike (no Orange hall yet) consisted of table after table with postwar boxed sets in the $1000s, high-priced individual collector items and Lionel MPC on which everyone wanted to double their money.
There was little for the collector of limited means like myself. York really wasn't a lot of fun for the average guy on a budget.
MTH offered the opportunity to buy new engines and rolling stock at a reasonable price that ran much better than most MPC. York and the hobby in general became much more fun for many people like myself, and only got better still when more manufacturers such as Atlas and K-Line among others entered the field.
MTH offered items that few ever thought would be available in 3 rail such as the PRR and NYC electrics, doodlebugs, a variety of trolleys, RDC cars, road diesels, and big steam in both scale and Railking sizes. We could finally have an articulated steam engine with full sound that ran on O31 curves!
The 3 rail hobby was much different before MTH.
Thank you, Mike.
Jim
@breezinup posted:Well, it's a whole lot more than that. All the innovation, design (including all the electronics), organization, coordination and direction to and with the Chinese factories (most of the employees of which don't know a locomotive from a bicycle) who simply build what they're told to and are given plans for (whether it's a model train or a Barbie doll), sales, advertising, shipping and delivery arrangements are all done (or have been done) by Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the rest.
I'm not sure how much of the design work is done stateside any more.
I remember Mike Reagan posting something about how they wouldn't know what parts an engine would have until they received them from China.
I agree. It'll be interesting how the market plays out. Will the end create apathy or a rush to get coveted engines/cars/accessories greater? K-line stuff still sells well on eBay at good prices (no one is giving them away) and so does Weaver. I'm a little weary about engines because they have complicated repairs. However, I can honestly say, owning MTH Engines for over 25 years, I've had just a few that needed repair. I had to buy a new board once on my Big Boy, new trucks another time, a coupler once and, recently, my local dealer had parts to fix a new Electroliner. I did have to send a Z4000 back twice, though -- a both times separated by about a year. Given the track record, time, the amount of MTH stuff I own, I can honestly say I've had few problems.
Based on this I don't really see an issue with buying out of the new MTH catalogs. They will back the product for a year through 2022. I find this situation intriguing because I purchased a K-line Collector's club CSX engine right before K-Line closed and Lionel ended up fulfilling the order after they bought K-Line and I was blown away by the quality of that engine when I received it and love that engine to this day. And I have not had any repairs in it.
I say support your hobby shop on MTH stuff until the end if you can. But it's fair to say a lot of hearts are broken over this news.
Discounted engines prices,more like a hard to find collectable and a higher price tag. Just wait and see. Especially for smaller road names that were hard to get. Mth did a great job vrs lionel producing them over the years.
@Lionelzwl2012 posted:Discounted engines prices,more like a hard to find collectable and a higher price tag. Just wait and see. Especially for smaller road names that were hard to get. Mth did a great job vrs lionel producing them over the years.
The last big ticket O 3r item I bought was a Amtrak Turbo Train set with 2 extra cars........now I am really happy I pulled the trigger on that one!
@superwarp1 posted:Neither is MTH or Lionel. They don't own the tooling. The factories in China do. For the most part MTH, Atlas, 3rdrail are importers.
Funny! Not true. MTH owns and most of it's tools were shipped to China from Korea (built in Korea) and moved many times.
@Norton posted:Actually it will mean more loss of revenue for the Eastern Division. It costs a pretty good chunk of change to display there.
Pete
Agreed there. I’m sure it will have an impact, I just don’t think it will spell doom. There really wasn’t much promotion for from any of the manufacturers though. If I recall at one time it was reported that Mike Wolf did threaten to pull out unless it went public I could be wrong.
@MELGAR posted:I would like to see Sunset/3rd Rail acquire MTH tooling and produce the Premier and Railking lines, perhaps in lesser volume than MTH was doing. This might not affect their current business which is in a somewhat more upscale market segment. Sunset already has a significant presence in the O gauge market and manufactures successfully in China. Acquisition of MTH would make them large enough to compete effectively with Lionel, which I believe is necessary to sustain a healthy marketplace. However, I expect that Sunset/3rd Rail will be satisfied to keep their business as it is right now.
MELGAR
Great idea, but not likely real world. Sunset/3rd Rail has a nice little niche in the marketplace. MTH is bigger by many multiples.
Pat
The new MTH catalogs came in today's mail. Lots of stuff.
Time to stock up on those hard to get subway traction tires! Wow! I just got through this entire thread and I’m floored. I haven’t been on the board for a few days and when I come back, I see this?!!! Unreal. Best of luck to Mike and I hope the demand generated by MTH engine owners keeps parts, traction tires, and boards in continued production, whomever it may be. I can’t wait for 2020 to end already.
@Strap Hanger posted:Time to stock up on those hard to get subway traction tires! Wow! I just got through this entire thread and I’m floored. I haven’t been on the board for a few days and when I come back, I see this?!!! Unreal. Best of luck to Mike and I hope the demand generated by MTH engine owners keeps parts, traction tires, and boards in continued production, whomever it may be. I can’t wait for 2020 to end already.
My thought exactly! Now I have to find the part number!
@breezinup posted:The ones I imagine are going through grief are the dealers who have been specializing in selling MTH trains.
The MTH approach was much more favorable to dealers than Lionel. No BTO and no distributor.
@RockvilleBear posted:Another thought: How will the MTH change/closure affect York's viability?
IMHO, very little if any.
I spend all 2 1/2 days at the fairgrounds, as do a few other carloads of friends.
While we go our own ways during our hunts, almost all of our time at York is in the private vendor halls, then the dealer halls, then, if time permits, we'll meet up at the Lionel & MTH booths for a few minutes before we leave.
We pour over PreWar and Post War. Standard, O and S gauges.
I have some "modern era" Lionel and a couple MTH pieces but they gotta have that traditional size and look for me.
I do admire the beautiful scale engines that come in new orange and purple boxes though.
What are you guys doing? All the agnst, complaining, feeling sorry for yourselfs because you may not be able to get parts or your favorite trains. Mike Wolf wants to retire for God's sake. Wish him good luck and thanks for 40 years of great trains.
We know nothing of what will happen in the future with MTH or will not happen. All the crying is getting very annoying.
Dave
@MTH posted:Funny! Not true. MTH owns and most of it's tools were shipped to China from Korea (built in Korea) and moved many times.
One of the plastic model companies had tooling in China. The company wanted to move it out of China. When they go the tooling it looked like it had been dropped off a 3 story building. It took almost 2 years to have it cut again.....but yes....they still owned a very costly paper weight.
MPC/Fundimations was a return of quality, after a rough patch. Late post war would get you an engine with a single dummy coupler, no working head light, no body detail, no E-unit and only a hand full of items by 1969 where in the catalog, by 1976 quality and detail had returned. The EMD F unit tooling had been repaired and the detail that had been filled in during post war was back, along with 3 position E-units, formally a luxury were common in the product line. The U36B was in production as a new engine, even on an old frame, that EMD units shared, but things had turned around, and the needle point axles that are now common were introduced in that era. Color and a varity of road names appeared. Treated well like anything they last a long time, run them hard with no or little maintenance and like anything they will break.
As for the cost, hand labor is expensive, many of our trains have hand applied details, and hand done wiring, that takes time and skill. Does not matter who makes it, it will be expensive. The more detail, the more expensive it will be. Labor in China is close to USA in cost now removing the brief drop in productions costs many have enjoyed. This combined with the weakening purchasing power of modern money, drives costs up.
Mike Wolf I am glad is doing his best to make it as smooth transition as possible, and being open as he legally can with us the customer. I received the dealer Email today from MTH. Lionel Cowen was more or less forced to leave, and sold all of his shares. I am glad he is retiring on his own terms. May he enjoy it.
In G scale, the fate of Aristo may be instructive. It went under. Mr. Polk was the founder and he retired. Someone, perhaps a relative, took up the baton and re-opened the company under a new name. It did not succeed. There was some interest in continuing the electronics side and a new company was formed, but it did not last. Perhaps it is that time has passed and what worked before did not any more. In Gauge 1, Maerklin bought LGB and more recently, started KM-1, it appears, to be a blend of Kiss and Maerklin. Bottom Line: our hobby is consolidating into a few companies, just like many of the (former) Class i railroads merged into a handful.
My best to Mike, because he made our hobby competitive and, therefore, more enjoyable. He will be missed.
Mark
@david1 posted:What are you guys doing? All the agnst, complaining, feeling sorry for yourselfs because you may not be able to get parts or your favorite trains. Mike Wolf wants to retire for God's sake. Wish him good luck and thanks for 40 years of great trains.
We know nothing of what will happen in the future with MTH or will not happen. All the crying is getting very annoying.
Dave
Wait, does MTH still have any replacement parts in stock?
@breezinup posted:That's probably part of the problem. Scott Mann buying ERR is one thing (for example); someone making a large investment for an entire toy train company in today's market is quite another - a much tougher sell.
If anything, it makes sense that MTH will be divided piecemeal, with the train manufacturing portion least likely to survive. Just IMHO. Noone really knows what the current market is, although Lionel keeps saying that each year is their best year yet (at least in recent years). Wouldn't be a complete shock if they jump on part of the carcass is the price is right.
Lionel won’t be saying that 2020 is “their best year ever;” you can count on that. I do wonder what affect the current terrible economic conditions had on Mike’s decision to call it a day at this particular point.
Certainly, model trains being almost a poster child for discretionary spending, I would guess that holiday sales will be mighty thin this year.
@Professor Chaos posted:I'm not sure how much of the design work is done stateside any more.
I remember Mike Reagan posting something about how they wouldn't know what parts an engine would have until they received them from China.
The train companies like Lionel will give the Chinese factory the parts specification; sometimes the factory will go off script and do something else, which then has to be either accommodated or corrected. Just add that to the other duties and problems the companies have to deal with.
@breezinup posted:The train companies like Lionel will give the Chinese factory the parts specification; sometimes the factory will go off script and do something else, which then has to be either accommodated or corrected. Just add that to the other duties and problems the companies have to deal with.
Never done any work in the model train hobby in China....but lots in other hobbies.
We did all design work here, sent CAD to China, 3D print prototypes made, changes, corrections, tooling cut. Production
NO design work done here for our hobby???
I did not read all 13 pages, but has anyone suggested an investment holding company might be a buyer, like what happened to Lionel? Maybe try to leverage a good price, hoping to make profit along the way and then resell when the economy and hobby is in better shape.
@superwarp1 posted:Menard's that's the answer.
Hi Gary, I hope so! One of my best memories at my two visits to York was having dinner with you and your son. I hope all is well and you are always welcome ton visit me in Tacoma!
@AMCDave posted:Really???? Half of our hobby is going away and we are just to say 'OK...nice' and not discuss? As I've said....MTH is WHY I am in O3r......it's worth discussing informed or not......and I think it's been very civil and smart so far.
You're making my point.
No additional information, just comments on comments on comments.
I hope rich and andy can carry the company forward. they do not seem young enough yet to retire. although they me be the ones getting the dcs part of the business. they may not have wanted the overseas factory part. with the current world climate who could blame them. we can only armchair speculate at this time though.
I finnaly now have the finances to buy preimer engines again. just got about 6 this last month. then I wake up to this news. still cant get my head around it. I just hope the new instock engines and more specifically the roadnames and model types I want will be available when I am ready to buy them. I do buy lionel but right now mth has produced what I want and some models like there dash nines have better detail than lionel.
I have also bought a fair amount of new in the box used ps3 and ps2 3volt engines of this forum and ebay witch were very good deals. most were half or a third off the new price. some were even hard to find road names I collect.
I realize most people say that there was nothing new being produced by mth for several years and that maybe true, but for me at least reissues were fine as it allowed me to get the models I could not get the first time around and some with the new ps3 and leds in them.
I also am glad that dcs is going to be carried on hopefully as I have a few engines I want ps3 in.
So lets all wait,breath,take a step back and lets let the mth folks fill us in on the future of the company. lionel is ok and stronger than ever today and the name lives on. mth will live on too some how I feel or at least I hope it does.
I just wish whoever buys the company or the tooling for the models takes the same aproach as mike wolf did and keep the prices resonable. all my mth engines are workhorses and they pull tons. never had a board fail on its own yet. the only ones that failed were my dumb fault as I was learning to repair stuff. most mth engines were highly detailed and well built with out all the fancy gizmo tricks that lionel has. so for steamers that was fine with me. one main smoke unit to replace the wick in every now and then easy peasy. desiels were even easier to work on if needed.
I often said mth trains were for the working man. no 2,000 legacy in thier line. to me at least they were like HO on steroids. big,loud,hefty,full of detail and when I run them they just feel like the real thing. especially when viewed at track level. heck even there cruies control had me hooked the first time I got one. I will not to this day buy a locomotive with out it. thanks again mike.
Even if DCS survives as a stand alone entity, how sustainable will that be if MTH no longer exists?
I don't think the replacement parts market can keep them in business for long, no matter what new updates and improvements they make. If it does, what does that say about there electronics that require so much replacement.
I think the only way for DCS will survive long term, is if they partner with one of the remaining train manufactures or whoever buys MTH as a whole or in parts.
Reading all the post and what is happening around all of us kind of reminds me of the movie when the characters when back in time. I was too young to remember the letter from a Lionel distributor to its employees in the late 60’s. The letter is posted in Greenberg’s guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969 volume III, sets; pages 162-163. O gauge did not die, it blossomed into what it is today. MPC and others were another stage in the American model train experience that keep us going forward even thou most product was made offshore.
I think it’s an opportune time for Lionel to have one or to starter sets that may have a box car that throws out the comparable like Baby Ruth boxes and a crane car that will pick up items and but it in a gondola. Even with a hand held remote kids will get bored. I think Lionel should set the prices at break even for the company for those one or two starter sets. No fancy road name gimmicks just tried and true road names. Maybe someone from Lionel will read this.
There is a lot of product out there now however the train market demographics is getting much older and as always, a company needs new customers to fill in the void.
I believe if Lionel sits on this it will eventually come back to haunt them. Raising the prices on family style sets will not be good for their long-term bottom line.
On a totally different note, the eternal optimist in me would also requests a one-time run of outer rail Super O track in long lengths. I think you would be surprised about the pre order number.
Wishing the best for Mike in the following years of retirement. If someone picks up the whole or part of the business that would be great. Time will tell; like my father-in-law would say; don't panic.
Best regards to a brighter future for all, Rob W
@Railgon posted:I did not read all 13 pages, but has anyone suggested an investment holding company might be a buyer, like what happened to Lionel? Maybe try to leverage a good price, hoping to make profit along the way and then resell when the economy and hobby is in better shape.
What investment company would buy a 1950's era toy company , which had a successful run of 40 years . And now to put money in tooling that has been used and made the same cars over and over again . No doubt alot of good diesels and steam models , but brand new models of loco's and rolling stock is needed , in this case even a better looking modern roller brg truck . In effect new tooling , new designs . The biggest problem 3 rail trains has is these control systems , all different , unlike all other "scale" trains which uses DCC , NMRA standards so all work together . Investment companies buying out a company to resell later ?
Maybe for 10 cents on the dollar , you make your profit on the purchase , not on the sale . Personally in this climate MTH tooling is obsolete , anybody who has any amount of trains has all they need of the old and if not just go online and buy for a whole lot cheaper in the secondary market , some stuff brand new never out of the box . HO company like Walthers , Athearn make runs on models and then they are done . Maybe 5 -10 yrs they might make a second run .Look at the high end pass car trains like UP , those go for 2 and 3 times the original price . 3 rail just floods the market and now it is so bloated of old tooling models you can hardly give it away . Just paint another name on it . 3 rail caters to old people who had Lionel trains as a kid in the 50's , a nostalgia , sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life . There is a whole wing of this forum dedicated to many many many ways to disguise or hide that center rail. New modelers ask what is the extra rail for . Once the baby boomers get a few years older 3 rail will fade even further . There will always be 3 rail but no company is going to buy yesterdays news
Mike Wolf knows this all to well and at 65 or so who needs the hassle of this "cat fight" . HO , N , 2 rail O scale all use a common control and and each manufacturer makes different models , so they can all stay afloat . Not in 3 rail , Mike made his money , he saw a market , capitalized for 40 yrs , now he is pulling the plug and enjoy life after all the effort . Congrats .
@Lionelzwl2012 posted:I hope rich and andy can carry the company forward. they do not seem young enough yet to retire. although they me be the ones getting the dcs part of the business. they may not have wanted the overseas factory part. with the current world climate who could blame them. we can only armchair speculate at this time though.
I finnaly now have the finances to buy preimer engines again. just got about 6 this last month. then I wake up to this news. still cant get my head around it. I just hope the new instock engines and more specifically the roadnames and model types I want will be available when I am ready to buy them. I do buy lionel but right now mth has produced what I want and some models like there dash nines have better detail than lionel.
I have also bought a fair amount of new in the box used ps3 and ps2 3volt engines of this forum and ebay witch were very good deals. most were half or a third off the new price. some were even hard to find road names I collect.
I realize most people say that there was nothing new being produced by mth for several years and that maybe true, but for me at least reissues were fine as it allowed me to get the models I could not get the first time around and some with the new ps3 and leds in them.
I also am glad that dcs is going to be carried on hopefully as I have a few engines I want ps3 in.
So lets all wait,breath,take a step back and lets let the mth folks fill us in on the future of the company. lionel is ok and stronger than ever today and the name lives on. mth will live on too some how I feel or at least I hope it does.
I just wish whoever buys the company or the tooling for the models takes the same aproach as mike wolf did and keep the prices resonable. all my mth engines are workhorses and they pull tons. never had a board fail on its own yet. the only ones that failed were my dumb fault as I was learning to repair stuff. most mth engines were highly detailed and well built with out all the fancy gizmo tricks that lionel has. so for steamers that was fine with me. one main smoke unit to replace the wick in every now and then easy peasy. desiels were even easier to work on if needed.
I often said mth trains were for the working man. no 2,000 legacy in thier line. to me at least they were like HO on steroids. big,loud,hefty,full of detail and when I run them they just feel like the real thing. especially when viewed at track level. heck even there cruies control had me hooked the first time I got one. I will not to this day buy a locomotive with out it. thanks again mike.
LionelZWl2012, I like what you wrote here. I just hope that someone actually does buy it. I think it's great for the 3 rail guys that DCS will live on but I would like to see the rest of the company live on as a whole and not chopped up into several pieces among a bunch of different companies. This is just speculation on my part but I don't think MTH was in the red. I think they were making a profit. Maybe not as much as in the past but still making a profit.
Hey guys I had an idea. Here is a copy of an email I sent to Midge:
Midge,
I wasn't sure who to send this to but I had an idea. In case you guys haven't thought of it already it would be nice
if Mike attends October York (if it is held) that you have a large card or a poster that says "Happy Retirement" and
all of us can sign it for him. I hope all is well with you.
Sincerely,
Phil Gatto
I've been writing this post in my head for 3 days straight now. I need to keep it short and concise, or the only one who will read it will be me.
The elephant in the room: our hobby (regardless of scale) is slowly dying as its membership ages out. O Scale/Gauge is dying the fastest, and this announcement poses the risk of becoming accelerant on the fire.
How many of us are under 50? 40? 30? 20? Put another way, what are the odds that the number of O hobbyists over the age of 50 is greater than the number under 50? I'd say the odds are pretty good, and that's not good. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 41.
I've heard the argument that it's a problem for the manufacturers to solve, and while I don't completely agree, MTH dropping out is a huge gut punch to any hope of O Scale/Gauge reversing its declining popularity. It's no secret that O is incredibly expensive when compared with other scales, and it is one of the reasons it struggles to attract folks under 40 who are raising families and building careers. While Lionel has done a good job of marketing itself to younger generations (Disney, Scooby, etc), I fear that most of those sales are grandfather purchases for grandchildren--I could be wrong, though. MTH, however, brought some unique key elements to the hobby that made it palatable to the 20 and 30-something crowd, and not just parents and grandparents. RailKing's price point is the obvious example here.
MTH's out-of-the-box thinking on the European models, 2-rail and DCC support, and Tinplate are also great examples of a commitment to product line diversity that our hobby has enjoyed that may be a thing of the past. MTH's announcement that DCS will live on as a separate company comes as a huge relief. If DCS becomes licensable, that's a huge boon as well; imagine a world where you can order an engine from someone like Atlas or Williams with either TMCC or DCS, or pay a little extra for an engine that supports BOTH (as component sizes shrink).
While I can ponder the possibilities of what will happen to the rest of MTH, none of what I've been able to brainstorm helps stem the bleeding of our hobby's membership, and that's what's haunting me.
The only thing that I can think of is for MTH to be reborn with a new generation of leadership tuned to attracting hobbyists aged 20-40. It's going to require, in large part, a re-thinking of what it means to make and sell O gauge to a millennial. Just having an iPhone app and/or bluetooth support isn't sufficient. Alexa/HomeKit/Google Home integration is a no-brainer nice-to-have. Augmented Reality likely needs to be involved here. Building an actual network of YouTube influencers is vital. Presence at CES is key to injecting product awareness into the "everyday consumer" space with major retail buyers. TCA will need to be guided on how to completely reinvent itself; I'm 41 and even I feel like an alien from another planet when it comes to interactions with TCA.
Could Lionel/Atlas/Williams do this on their own? Maybe, but it's not likely. Lionel needs a competitor like MTH in order to drive this innovation through competition. Apple wouldn't be what it is if Microsoft and Google hadn't been fighting it tooth and nail. Ford and Chevy made each other's success. Lionel needs an MTH competing head to head. focused on millennials if our hobby is going to survive the next 10-15 years.
Can MTH be reborn with employees carrying the torch? Maybe. I think that's the hope, because it's apparent that a whole-sale buyout is a fleeting possibility at this point. And even if the employees can pick up the torch, will they have a leader who seeds a vision for the markets that our hobby hasn't attracted in 30 years? Who knows.
Short of that, however, I suspect that this announcement could go down as one of the major watershed moments in the final decline of O Gauge. I really, really hope that I'm wrong, and I hesitated to write this post because I don't like being a Debbie Downer. But we need to force this conversation, and we need as many members under the age of 50 and 40 contributing to the conversation as much as possible.
I think Rafi makes some interesting points.
IMO, if Lionel, and possible MTH substitutes continue to make affordable LC, LC+ and Railking-like products, that will greatly help the O Gauge segment of our hobby.
Arnold
@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:What investment company would buy a 1950's era toy company , which had a successful run of 40 years . And now to put money in tooling that has been used and made the same cars over and over again . No doubt alot of good diesels and steam models , but brand new models of loco's and rolling stock is needed , in this case even a better looking modern roller brg truck . In effect new tooling , new designs . The biggest problem 3 rail trains has is these control systems , all different , unlike all other "scale" trains which uses DCC , NMRA standards so all work together . Investment companies buying out a company to resell later ?
Maybe for 10 cents on the dollar , you make your profit on the purchase , not on the sale . Personally in this climate MTH tooling is obsolete , anybody who has any amount of trains has all they need of the old and if not just go online and buy for a whole lot cheaper in the secondary market , some stuff brand new never out of the box . HO company like Walthers , Athearn make runs on models and then they are done . Maybe 5 -10 yrs they might make a second run .Look at the high end pass car trains like UP , those go for 2 and 3 times the original price . 3 rail just floods the market and now it is so bloated of old tooling models you can hardly give it away . Just paint another name on it . 3 rail caters to old people who had Lionel trains as a kid in the 50's , a nostalgia , sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life . There is a whole wing of this forum dedicated to many many many ways to disguise or hide that center rail. New modelers ask what is the extra rail for . Once the baby boomers get a few years older 3 rail will fade even further . There will always be 3 rail but no company is going to buy yesterdays news
Mike Wolf knows this all to well and at 65 or so who needs the hassle of this "cat fight" . HO , N , 2 rail O scale all use a common control and and each manufacturer makes different models , so they can all stay afloat . Not in 3 rail , Mike made his money , he saw a market , capitalized for 40 yrs , now he is pulling the plug and enjoy life after all the effort . Congrats .
With respect, a few problems I see here. Source? I worked in a major hobby shop for over 5 years.
1. MTH, Lionel, and especially Atlas O aren't only "old tooling". There's been plenty of totally new items lately and plenty more planned, too. O is a smaller market than HO, so naturally there's less capital investment, but there is still demand, no doubt.
2. MTH has already ensured DCC compatibility in their PS3 system. So if DCC were the real deal breaker, well, it wouldn't be.
3. Let me tell you, if you want to see trains that are worthless once they're a few years old, look at HO. Because there is so much innovation and competition in that branch of the hobby, yesterday's models are seriously "old news". O gauge (especially Lionel) is the king of making too few of a model and then waiting a decade to remake it. For instance, I've got a Lionel Southern PS-4 from 2006 that MSRP'd at $1,000 that I could easily sell on ebay for $700-800 today. There are even plenty of desirable models going for far more than original MSRP. This kind of resale value is unthinkable to HO guys.
4. Mike has already invested a ton into the HO hobby, to pretty great success. If the O market is as completely bleak as you speculated, he would have simply dropped O gauge and turned the full attention of MTH to the HO end of the hobby.
5. If you saw how many O gauge train sets, Lionel and MTH, we sold to young families, especially around the holidays, you would have a lot more faith in the future of the hobby. And if you saw how many even came back to get extra trains, track, scenery, accessories, etc., you'd have even more faith. The hobby will shrink, but it won't die. Lionel would not be making all of their recent tooling investments if there was no future.
No, I don't think we can blame ourselves or our end of the hobby for Mike's departure. I think he just wants to retire, as he said!
"sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life "
Looks like someone is letting his personal views of 2 v 3 rail drive his analysis. O is a scale that is dominated by 3 rail. It will be for the foreseeable future. Its a better bet that O beyond inexpensive start up sets will die out than it is that 2 rail will topple 3 rail among established O purchasers. Are 3 railers stuck in a 1950s fantasy? Perhaps, but its a fantasy that has driven the 1:48 world for decades. Since the 1980s 2 railers and 3 railers in O have enjoyed a mutually beneficial marriage. This was in part because of the work of Mike Wolf.
"MTH's out-of-the-box thinking on the European models, 2-rail and DCC support, and Tinplate are also great examples of a commitment to product line diversity that our hobby has enjoyed that may be a thing of the past."
Well said and it is one of the biggest reasons (at least to me) why losing MTH hits pretty hard. Yes I am an MTH fan but I do not hate Lionel like one other poster said earlier in this thread. I do like Lionel and have some of their rolling stock and two older locomotives. The thing with MTH is they gave me an option for 2 rail and DCC which I prefer and once MTH started adding the Kadee coupler pads in their rolling stock you didn't have to check a catalog to know that a certain piece of rolling stock had the Kadee coupler pad as long as it was the Premier Line. MTH gave me what I wanted in this hobby and they did it at a price that was within my budget.
To comment on the post by Rafi, above, another hobby undergoing the same generational shrinking is Amateur (Ham) Radio. I am in that hobby too, and at the equivalent swap meets (hamfests) in that hobby, it is almost the exact same demographic (us old men!). And on their discussion groups they have similar discussions about attracting younger members into the hobby. In both cases, these hobbies do not enjoy the "mass" interest that they once did. It is not the fault or responsibility of the manufacturers to "fix" this. It can't be fixed, it's just the evolution of technology that young folks have a lot more options (toys) to play with these days, so the slice of the pie for each hobby in play is significantly smaller. And with that comes an inevitable shake down of suppliers, and thinning of the herd. I don't see 'O' or any scale dying, but each will have its niche. On the supply side, the nimble and resourceful suppliers will survive, but they must face a smaller customer base and no amount of "fixing" is going to bring back the masses.
Gary W8GEL
