while looking at videos of the real 4014 I have noticed a lot of small piping and knob like protrusions on the rear boiler near the cab end which don't appear on the model. Has anyone else noticed this?
Bob C.
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You didn't notice that the front end pilot deck arrangement looks completely different too? Since Lionel produced those Vision Line models of the "as delivered" in 1941 4000 class locomotives, the models do not reflect how ANY of the remaining UP 4000 class locomotives look today.
Yes, they are missing detail, and as HW pointed out, are more like as delivered then as mostly used. I personally like the as delivered better so I was happy. But as for other details, Lionel never once said it'd be a 100% accurate and fully detailed model. As has been pointed out elsewhere, you always have the option to super detail your own locomotive.
Did anyone notice it has a can motor unlike the real one. Many people passed for the reason it has three rail pick up rollers and the real one does not. Just joking. It is amazing how many of the guys that know steam locomotives can spot these details. Although I am a toy train guy, I do read posts like this one. I would think it would cost many bucks to make any model true to the original.
One great thing for detail guys is the fact that you do not have to buy it if you do not like it. Over the years I have observed the people who throw stones at a locomotive are the people who did not buy it for whatever the reason.
Being involved with fixing trains for a dealer, I have only seen one Big Boy come back. Charles Ro sells a few trains. It was for a simple smoke unit fix. What I did observe was the inside design on this big locomotive. It was a thing of beauty to observe. Well done LIONEL. It runs as good as it looks.
Marty Fitzhenry hits the nail on the head. If you want the best detail, and I am certain it has rivets or bolts missing, get a Kohs O scale model for thousands more. Carp, complain, blast, insinuate, there is no dearth of mosquitos who, at the drop of a hat, will be glad to tell you what is wrong with every model train ever made.
It runs on THREE RAILS, for God's sakes. Even the most knowledgeable railroader who ever lived on this Forum who runs on three rails, runs model trains on three rails. You're a three railer for goodness sakes complaining about detail missing. You are not running real trains. Not, Not, Not.
Scrapiron Scher
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Bob C, in my opinion knows his trains. I read all he posts. He asked if anyone else noticed the details missing. Being a toy train sort of guy, I would ask if anyone cares about this extra detail. Trains today are not cheap and I understand what needs to be done to make them affordable. I run trains every day and enjoy what I am doing.
Well the point of my post was to discover what missing details can be identified by those more versed in Big Boy than I am. I did not criticize the lack of details and my VL Big Boy is a prized possession.
I would assume all toy train models have some details missing. There must be a price point where most would stop buying altogether.
jim1939
I agree with your statement. To have added the details we are talking about here would have been very costly I think
Bob C.
For what it's worth, my Sunset/3rd Rail UP #4023 is NOT missing any details, is powered by an electric can motor, has 3-rail pick-up rollers, and operates beautifully on our 3-Rail SCALE layout. Oh,,,,,,,and it was less expensive than the Lionel Vision Line model and even LOOKS just like the #4023 that is on display in Omaha, Nebraska!
Hot Water, I am familiar with that model. Yes it is loaded with details. The Lionel is loaded with toys. Some guys like Fords and some like Chevrolet cars. We are very lucky we have choices. Enjoy and have fun with any choice you make.
How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
J Daddy posted:How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
You're kidding, right? I don't recall Lionel "advertising" those $2400 Vision Line series of UP 4000 class models as "toys".
Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
You're kidding, right? I don't recall Lionel "advertising" those $2400 Vision Line series of UP 4000 class models as "toys".
Where have you been? Lionel makes toys!
J Daddy posted:Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
You're kidding, right? I don't recall Lionel "advertising" those $2400 Vision Line series of UP 4000 class models as "toys".
Where have you been? Lionel makes toys!
Then it sounds like that "HO GUY" being discussed in the topic "Appropriate Response - What would you say", may be correct?
Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
You're kidding, right? I don't recall Lionel "advertising" those $2400 Vision Line series of UP 4000 class models as "toys".
Where have you been? Lionel makes toys!
Then it sounds like that "HO GUY" being discussed in the topic "Appropriate Response - What would you say", may be correct?
NO the HO GUY was an inconsiderate idiot. The fact remains the same though that Lionel makes toys.
A Detail model layout can still have Lionel Toys on it... hence my layout.
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Hot Water posted:You didn't notice that the front end pilot deck arrangement looks completely different too? Since Lionel produced those Vision Line models of the "as delivered" in 1941 4000 class locomotives, the models do not reflect how ANY of the remaining UP 4000 class locomotives look today.
Is the pilot correct for an as-delivered Big Boy as Lionel advertised? I don't see a problem if that's what they stated in the catalog. Perhaps the next batch will have the updated pilot - it's only a matter of time before Lionel reruns that beast (probably sooner than the day 4014 hits the road under its own power).
Many of our items such a Big Boy have ceased being just toys a long time ago.
Bob C.
MTN posted:..... it's only a matter of time before Lionel reruns that beast (probably sooner than the day 4014 hits the road under its own power).
We'll have plenty of time to save then...
Bob, recommend you check with UPHS. Motive Power of the Union Pacific has some good BB detail photos in a chapter. There's a lot of BB books available on amazon also.
I seem to recall a thread on one of the forums about the Sofue BB model. Lots of detailed pictures. Try a google search, it may pop up....
They are all toys, we play with them.
Jim 1939 posted:They are all toys, we play with them.
Ahhhhhhh, the response everyone was waiting for!
I don't play with my items. I operate them
Bob C.
The VL big boy is a great engine with nice detail, even the two rail key below is not perfect, close but not perfect. Enjoy what you have, 3 rail, 2 rail, it's all fun.
A Key O scale big boy was recently sold for $3,750.00 and just think no sound and its from 1989 production. The new big boy coming from Key this year or maybe next year will be more then double the cost. 
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Bob,
Sent you a link via e-mail.
Dave is correct. The Key model will be incredible but for the cost, my VL BB is adequate. Plus, the Key model has been a long time coming....
If I'm reading Marty's earlier post correctly, he's saying the 3rd Rail model has more added details than Lionel's model, while Lionel's has more "toys" as in operating features - not that the Lionel model is a toy.
Where is Dr. Phil when we need him?
If one has the photo documentation of the detail required, it would not be that difficult to add it. If one can accurately drill mounting holes, bend brass wire , use PSC parts etc, and do a little soldering, one can detail the heck out of this model. If you are not running on rounded tinplate rails, just putting scale NWSL wheels on the pilot truck will make a huge difference right a way and then ease into the rest of it.
Best of luck.
Ron H
to quote a disclaimer on the Trainworld site ------- The model RR equipment & accessories we sell are not toys.......
So there are others who share my opinion on this. I do however think that some of the lower line items can rightly be regarded as toys.
Bob C.
Everyone likes different things in locomotives. Myself, I am not a brass fan. I own one brass locomotive. It is the Weaver New Haven I-5 Hudson. I saw them run. I have been chasing MTH for years to make it. Maybe Lionel will do it someday. Plenty of people still exist that saw it run.
@ J Daddy Man, those GN Alcos look real good!
unpainted brass steam locos have always fascinated me but I have never owned a brass engine. I understand that they are more fragile than diecast models.
Bob C.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Where is Dr. Phil when we need him?
He wouldn't stand a chance on here lately!!!!
"Over the years I have observed the people who throw stones at a locomotive are the people who did not buy it for whatever the reason."
Well, could it be that those guys didn't buy it for the reasons with which they take issue...? Ya' think...?
Hot Water posted:J Daddy posted:How in the heck did you compare a toy with a scale brass model?
You're kidding, right? I don't recall Lionel "advertising" those $2400 Vision Line series of UP 4000 class models as "toys".
Where have you been? Lionel makes toys!"
No, Lionel does not (just) make toys; they make very good to excellent 1:48 3RO scale models. This "toys" thing is really doing a disservice to those of us who wouldn't be here at all if it was "just toys". I am a grown man; I don't make choo-choo sounds nor wear an engineer's cap when indulging in my hobby.
Are some (yes, only some) brass locos "more detailed" than some die-cast (with brass details)? Sure. So what? That in no way detracts from the die-cast models, especially given that, as a rule, the brass models are more prone to poor running design than are the "mass-produced" die-cast models. (I am not speaking of those ultra-high-cost pieces; never saw one.)
I own both, like both, and have cursed both. But, I have had to tune up and/or repair and curse, out of the box, new, far more brass steamers than die-cast ones.
Yesterday I was looking at a Japanese (remember those?) O-scale (KTM, maybe?) NYC L-2a Mohawk; I was comparing it to my Lionel TMCC L-2a. The brass model was more beautiful and better-looking - a bit; the thin brass has a look that is literally sharp. How much better was it visually than the Lionel? 5%, max. And the KTM just refused to accept any TMCC commands...what's up with that? Roller pickups were missing, too...
However, neither of these locos was anything like a "toy". That's getting old.
I wish that Lionel would drop the "Lionel" name altogether for its high-end equipment; it can be a real boat anchor at that level, especially when these items are in the same catalogue as the...y'know.
Robert Coniglio posted:to quote a disclaimer on the Trainworld site ------- The model RR equipment & accessories we sell are not toys.......
So there are others who share my opinion on this. I do however think that some of the lower line items can rightly be regarded as toys.
Bob C.
I think all my trains are toys; whether it's my Phantom set or my Vision Line Big Boy.
I don't get all hung up on classifications, and certainly don't care if someone calls my scale models "toys." Life's too short to worry about this stuff.
I really felt that Lionel broke into a new image with their issue of their first Allegheny offering. it was not strictly scale but it sure looked it.
Bob C.
of course it is not important if they are called toys but it is an interesting point for debate. at least for me it is.
Bob C.
No item is worth anything if you can not get parts. Lionel parts service is the best in the world.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:No item is worth anything if you can not get parts. Lionel parts service is the best in the world.
Well, that is just your opinion. In my opinion, I think Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot has the best customer service and the best replacement parts for THEIR products,,,,,,,,IN THE WORLD!
I have purchased parts from all those companies. I have nothing bad to say about them. Scott is a friend and has always been good to me with parts. One question Hot Water, how many trains do you work on or order parts for in an average year? I always like to learn from someone who has done work like yourself to better myself. How often do you order parts from Lionel?
Marty Fitzhenry posted:I have purchased parts from all those companies. I have nothing bad to say about them. Scott is a friend and has always been good to me with parts. One question Hot Water, how many trains do you work on or order parts for in an average year?
Assuming you are referring to model locomotives, I only need to order parts from MTH and Sunset/3rd Rail a few times a year, since I do NOT do repairs for other people.
I always like to learn from someone who has done work like yourself to better myself. How often do you order parts from Lionel?
I have NEVER ordered parts from Lionel, as I only have 6 Lionel locomotives. The vast majority of my locomotive fleet is Sunset/3rd Rail and MTH, plus only 4 Atlas diesels.
