Modern engines vs post-war engines

well. what you say is very very true. it is just so hard to resist the features in the new items.

Bob C.

But George had issues walking Astro.........Radio Shack made ads based on George's misadventures of modern stuff.  So all of George's PS2 and 3 engines will always be "Out of Range"!

Denny, there is a lot of good in what you say.  Yes, the newer electronics we deal with every day can become overwhelming.  I have as much PW Lionel and Marx as I do have the more "modern" with the electronics.  I have rebuilt/fixed many PW engines in my time, starting when I was as young as 10, in the early 60s.   My Dad and I ran trains on our layout(s), all PW and enjoyed them all the more.  He sadly left us far too young, never got to see and experience the "modern" electronic aspects.  But, when I do have a problem, I have learned a little, hope enough, to pretty much fix what I can and have had good luck with changing "bad" engines over to TMCC and keep 'em rolling.  But, I will never tire of running only PW at times, have to keep them limbered up, 'eh ?  Even so, I run them both with my Cab1 and ZWC/180 bricks in conventional mode.  Love the smell of smoke pellets and ozone........

Jesse    TCA

Where did the expression "old school" come from, it never made any sense to me.

I think, like many aspects of this hobby, there are pros and cons to both PW and Modern equipment. I always say there is no right or wrong way to go about the hobby. Whatever makes the enthusiast happy is what they should do. If you are happier with PW then stick with that. I like the modern stuff, I'm not saying modern is better than PW just that I like it better. I still have my PW and I run them once in a while. I'm much more careful with the modern stuff and if there should be a problem some day I will deal with it then. I expect the trains to work and run.

I think the car analogy you meant to make is that old cars are much easier to repair. Their engine compartments are a lot less cluttered, there are a lot less electrical wires and everything is usually just simpler. But when it comes to tuning nothing could be easier than to tune a new car because we don't tune our new cars. There's no need to since the computer controls everything. Some of them don't even have distributors.

There's no right or wrong answer.  It's all a matter of your personal preference, just like everything else in life.  As long as you're enjoying the hobby, that's all that matters.

Dennis Rempel posted:

Where did the expression "old school" come from, it never made any sense to me.

A term coined in the 1700's. 1st noted use I.D.ed  by Websters as being in 1803.

Describes things as a product of, or likening to, etc... of an earlier time.

Modern electronics can be very reliable and robust.  The issues complained of here regularly amount to plain old quality control as compared to new versus old.

On the car front, there is no comparison between old and new.  While the old ones were more accessible to a shade tree mechanic, new cars are better in almost every respect:  rustproofing and paints are far superior, the drivetrain of an ordinary model will almost always last at least 100k miles, and the safety and emissions equipment make them cleaner and more efficient.  Reliability on average also exceeds by a wide margin where it was 10-20 years ago. Granted there is something less visceral about the, to the driving enthusiastic but the objective performance figures do not lie.

Post war, and pre war are always more fun to run!

I agree that there are pros and cons to each generation of our trains, but I don't think one is really better or worse.  When it comes to the electronics, there is really nothing high tech in modern engines... anyone that has passed a course in basic electronics can reverse engineer these things and do the board level repairs that are offered by certified techs.  the knowledge is just different than what is needed with post war trains, it isn't any harder.  

As for the car analogy, I think it follows quite well.  Guy1:  I can work on my old car.  Guy2:  I don't have to work on my new car.  As someone that made a living working on cars at one point I can assure you that the nuts and bolts are the same.  If you know how to change a water pump, or transmission, or instrument cluster, the job is essentially the same on a 65 Mustang and a 2015 Mustang.  Things do get a bit other-worldly with hybrids and electric cars, but that is an entirely different beast.  in the end, the point is that you had to be able to work on your old car because it required a lot more routine maintenance.  you don't need to know how to work on the new car because it does the adjustments on its own, and it tells you exactly what is wrong when something breaks.  the same is true for modern engines.  There is nothing (qualify this, as you still need to lube and such, but just talking about the control system, not the mechanics) in them that requires routine maintenance like what the PW stuff needed.  

Sure, PW stuff is easy to understand, but the electronic stuff is not actually difficult to understand either, if you want to learn it.  To quote my favorite historian, James Burke, "Never before have so many people understood so little about so much."  but thanks to the internet, among other things, the information is out there, easily accessible, for all of us that want to understand.  

JGL

^{"...And that, if they are to have more say in what happens to their lives, more freedom to develop their abilities to the full, they have to be helped towards that knowledge, that they know exists, and that they don't possess. And by helped towards that knowledge I don't mean give everybody a computer and say: help yourself. Where would you even start? No, I mean trying to find ways to translate the knowledge. To teach us to ask the right questions. See, we're on the edge of a revolution in communications technology that is going to make that more possible than ever before. Or, if that’s not done, to cause an explosion of knowledge that will leave those of us who don't have access to it, as powerless as if we were deaf, dumb and blind. And I don't think most people want that. So, what do we do about it? I don't know. But maybe a good start would be to recognize within yourself the ability to understand anything. Because that ability is there, as long as it is explained clearly enough. And then go and ask for explanations. And if you're thinking, right now, what do I ask for? Ask yourself, if there is anything in your live that you want changed. That's where to start."}  

^{-  James Burke, Connections (1979)}

 If you know how to change a water pump, or transmission, or instrument cluster, the job is essentially the same on a 65 Mustang and a 2015 Mustang.  

How many hours would it take to replace a water pump on that 2015 Mustang due to all the stuff you'd have to move out of the way to get to the water pump?
The job may be the same, but the work required for the 2015 has to be a lot more.
How about a more complex problem?
All I know is the Chevy mechanic that I know has spent quite a bit of time in specialized training classes for Chevy service.

Modern cars are great until something goes wrong.

Sure, PW stuff is easy to understand, but the electronic stuff is not actually difficult to understand either, if you want to learn it.

I can get parts for my Postwar. The same cannot be said about the electronic stuff.

Dennis Rempel posted:

Where did the expression "old school" come from, it never made any sense to me.

Like most of the slang of the younger generation, none of it makes sense to me either.....LOL

Conversely, I come out with some things my kids laugh at.

Like most of the slang of the younger generation, none of it makes sense to me either.....LOL
Conversely, I come out with some things my kids laugh at.

You mean expressions like:

Reet!
Groovy
Cool

Dennis Rempel posted:

Where did the expression "old school" come from, it never made any sense to me.

Not sure where the term came from, but where I come from it refers to people born before 1960. Things were more simple. How we were raised, how we see the world. Not being part of the push button generation even though it started with us. I always tease the younger people by telling them if anything were to happen to computers, cell phones, microwave ovens and video games. They would be completely lost like junkies needing a fix. This woman showed her son a payphone. He had no idea what it was or how to operate it.

"School" also could be equal to "philosophy", or "way of life".  It does not have to mean a physical building.

But, I have somebody who runs 3R DC "conventional".  He gets burnt out stuff, rips it out, and places a simple rectifer in it.

The biggest disappointment for me, returning to this hobby after a near lifetime, is the staggering (to me anyway) unreliability of these electronified locomotives. Of the dozen I have, 5 have required major expenditures of time and money within the first year of my owning them. All, except one, were purchased new, BTW.

But I am not a post war fan by any means. Love the sounds, the prototypical detail and slow running capability of the new stuff. Without it, I doubt I ever would have returned to the hobby.

But, I sure do wish for less trouble with persnickety electronics! And wish the repair parts were a lot less $$!

Hudson J1e posted:

I think, like many aspects of this hobby, there are pros and cons to both PW and Modern equipment. I always say there is no right or wrong way to go about the hobby. Whatever makes the enthusiast happy is what they should do. If you are happier with PW then stick with that. I like the modern stuff, I'm not saying modern is better than PW just that I like it better. I still have my PW and I run them once in a while. I'm much more careful with the modern stuff and if there should be a problem some day I will deal with it then. I expect the trains to work and run.

I think the car analogy you meant to make is that old cars are much easier to repair. Their engine compartments are a lot less cluttered, there are a lot less electrical wires and everything is usually just simpler. But when it comes to tuning nothing could be easier than to tune a new car because we don't tune our new cars. There's no need to since the computer controls everything. Some of them don't even have distributors.

This is all true Phil, but what happens when the computer fails? When something happened to older cars, you could fix them without using expensive analyzing devices or coughing up an outrageous amount of money to get it fixed. Also the fact that people are too dependent on computers. I have seen companies come to a halt because their computers stopped working or cashiers can't count change without the register telling them how much.  

Things are always going to change and for the better (most of the time) At a track meet to see my 13 yr old grandson run a few days ago, I made the comment , how many yards in the 400 meter race?, My 10 yr old granddaughter replied.  Pops, did you go to school?  Made my day  .

Brent

Kids are smarter than we were that's for sure.

Don't get me wrong guys I am learning how to work on modern engines, but I'm not going back to school to learn how to work on circuit boards. I have known people that tried to teach themselves and destroyed lot of boards that belong to someone else. Though I guess you would just by a new one if they are available or put a different one in all together.

My opinion on this and similar matters has evolved greatly over the years. I used to agree with the OP; everything I purchased (not just train related) was carefully planned with an eye to longevity.

Jumping ahead 40 years, I now realize I spent a ton of money on high-quality stuff that outlasted its usefulness. Fancy audio equipment, cameras, workshop tools, electronics; I have many examples of perfectly intact relics that have been rendered irrelevant due to modern advances.

If your interest is in the hobby as it was in years past, that is fine with me, I respect you for that, I was there once, and still have plenty of PW stuff. But I am now pretty much convinced that, for me,  "the future is in the future."

I think C.W. hit it on the head when he said that...."I can get parts for my Postwar". My collection is probably half modern, half PW, but I really do prefer working on and modifying my PW stuff. When ordering parts for that vintage stuff, my big concern is.....will it take two days or three days to get my parts. When I need parts for my modern stuff, the concern is......will I even be able to find the part I need or......how long am I going to have to wait to get it (if ever)?   It annoys me that parts inventory is not the priority it should be for the modern manufacturers. 

Roger

Like said above, you can always throw away the broken electronics and run them DC or AC rectified.

I run post war and a little General Mills, nothing electronic. It's a planned escape from the world I helped create as an design engineer in the 1960's through today given that I just can't seem to totally retire. I get plenty enough of systems design and logic when working. My trains are one of my escapes to a more analog time even if they're running while I'm working on modern systems design on the computer.

Bogie

C W Burfle posted:

 If you know how to change a water pump, or transmission, or instrument cluster, the job is essentially the same on a 65 Mustang and a 2015 Mustang.  

How many hours would it take to replace a water pump on that 2015 Mustang due to all the stuff you'd have to move out of the way to get to the water pump?
The job may be the same, but the work required for the 2015 has to be a lot more.
How about a more complex problem?
All I know is the Chevy mechanic that I know has spent quite a bit of time in specialized training classes for Chevy service.

Modern cars are great until something goes wrong.

Sure, there is more stuff in the way, the job is harder, but the knowledge needed to do it is essentially the same.  When it comes to modern electronics, the classes mostly involve teaching what each component does in the system, this way the tech knows what are the likely things that may have failed to cause a given problem.  this is the specialized knowledge that one has to learn.  Once a trained tech has diagnosed the problem as the number 8 coil pack, however, any saturday mechanic can replace the coil pack.  Cars still run on the same four things, fuel, air, spark, and compression.  Once you know which one you don't have, you can trace back the problem in short order, as long as you know what components are used to control each.  

C W Burfle posted:

Sure, PW stuff is easy to understand, but the electronic stuff is not actually difficult to understand either, if you want to learn it.

I can get parts for my Postwar. The same cannot be said about the electronic stuff.

ROGER1 posted:

I think C.W. hit it on the head when he said that...."I can get parts for my Postwar". My collection is probably half modern, half PW, but I really do prefer working on and modifying my PW stuff. When ordering parts for that vintage stuff, my big concern is.....will it take two days or three days to get my parts. When I need parts for my modern stuff, the concern is......will I even be able to find the part I need or......how long am I going to have to wait to get it (if ever)?   It annoys me that parts inventory is not the priority it should be for the modern manufacturers. 

Roger

I suppose a definition of 'understanding' is in order here.  What I mean is actually knowing which components on the boards are doing what jobs, and being able to replace the ones that fail 'commonly'.  Going back to the car analogy, what we do with trains today is say 'my car won't start' then replace everything in the engine compartment, instead of just the starter solenoid.  The same problem would exist in cars if the only way to fix them was by buying a factory crate engine to solve every problem.  I find it very doubtful that any component used in out trains is currently unavailable, or that a suitable replacement could not be found, at least for the things that tend to go bad.  I'll concede that the actual microprocessors used and the data on the EPROM's may be difficult to acquire, but this is due to being specific to the product, but I don't think these are the parts that routinely go bad.  When all else fails you can always take more drastic measures...

midnightwrecking posted:

Like said above, you can always throw away the broken electronics and run them DC or AC rectified.

 You can just gut the engines and run them as if they were post war trains.  You can do the full removal as Midnightwrecking suggests, or you could buy a simple electronic e-unit to have normal, conventional, control.  You could also go with the ERR electronics or DCS upgrade kit, and retain full command control.  Point here is, even if you can't find the original parts, you can find parts to make things work.  

I guess the point is, I think a lot less folks would be worried about the electronics if they had a basic understanding of how they work.  You don't need to be able to build your own circuits, but knowing what a resistor is, what a transistor does, how an H-bridge functions, just the basic things that make our trains work.  Knowing these things would make a lot of folks a lot less concerned with the electronics... and the information is out there, freely available to everyone that has an internet connection... everyone on this forum.  It's also out there for people that don't have the internet, though it may be more difficult to acquire and harder to understand in the format presented in a public library.  The problem is knowing what to ask to get the information you want.  "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - CS.

JGL

^{"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology."  -  Carl Sagan}

 When it comes to modern electronics, the classes mostly involve teaching what each component does in the system, this way the tech knows what are the likely things that may have failed to cause a given problem.  this is the specialized knowledge that one has to learn.  Once a trained tech has diagnosed the problem as the number 8 coil pack, however, any saturday mechanic can replace the coil pack.  

I think you are being very dismissive of the skills required by the trained tech.

By the way, one of those Chevy classes that was required for their certified techs was focused on proper torque, materials elasticity, thread deforming, and the like. Not exactly shade tree.

I guess the point is, I think a lot less folks would be worried about the electronics if they had a basic understanding of how they work.

I don't think the issue is understanding how they work. The issues are the failure rates, availability of parts, and the cost to repair. Replacing those boards with simpler controls like rectifiers and/or e-units, as has oft been suggested, isn't very realistic in my opinion, you loose all those features you paid so dearly to get.

I agree as I love operating and working on my postwar stuff.  However, I absolutely love my modern locomotives!  The details, sounds, and control is what sets the modern stuff apart.  Tinkering under the shell of a new locomotive...NO WAY!  If I have a problem, which rarely happens, I send it to GGG.  It's just like when I was in high school, I had a 1970 Z28 Camaro.  I pulled the engine and rebuilt it myself.  I changed the transmission several times (wish I still had that car).  My wife and I just purchased a 2016 Volkswagen  Touareg.  There are computers all over it!  I wouldn't attempt to do anything more than drive it.  Heck, under the hood it looks like an MTH diesel, computers all over. 

That is why I am glad to have products such as ERR puts out, along with some older Digital Dynamics I bought way back when.  And, there is always hope someone does develop a product to retain the PS1 sounds, but gain TMCC, and perhaps cruise, also.  This form of "change out" would, I suppose, relate to upgrade of a points type distributor to an electronic ignition type.  I performed this on engines, one being my '77 Pontiac Can Am and it's .60 over 400c.i. with posi rear end.  Along with other engine mods, this gave me a much hotter combustion, i.e. to more H.P. and torque to the posi.  same with upgrades to motive power in my roster...... more power and control when and where I want it, need it.  All in what one requires to satisfy the inner self.

Jesse   TCA

I have two engines that have ERR 4.1 command boards in them and there are issues with both of them. They are minor issue, but issues none the less, I shouldn't have to be dealing with it because the boards are new. The board on my LionChief Plus GP7 is fried. When it stopped working, the Lionel tech I go to put it on the track and we watched the board start smoking. It's under warranty and Lionel isn't being very cooperative, but that is another can of worms.

I am incapable of fixing either Postwar or Modern trains, other than replacing a light bulb or traction tire, and have encountered more issues with old-fashioned E-units and motors than Modern train electronics.  I will take the smooth running, feature-packed Modern over Postwar any day of the week.

What, me worry?

Dennis Rempel posted:

Where did the expression "old school" come from, it never made any sense to me.

"Old school" refers to a way of doing things that was common in the past and originated the first time a son didn't want to do as he was told.   

What, me worry?

Postwar is fun.  Anyone with no skills can fix it.  When it is fixed, it is what it is.  No great features that modern locomotives have.   Modern trains are sometimes a problem when people do not read the book.   Run it and have fun but be aware of what is in the book.   I understand the frustration owners have when an engine has a problem.   Many people take on newer trains to fix and unless they have some training, things do not always go good.   

Many can be happy with old school.  Most want all the toys.   Remember, if a modern train ran before, it can be made to run again.  

I am not trying to start a war.  What I do observe, old school train guys always throw rocks at modern trains but it usually does not go the other way.   Modern train operators have a respect for the old trains as most of us started with those trains.  I have a few engines and the only old locomotive I have is my 1954 Southern F-3 that I received for Christmas in 1954.   That is the only mechanical E unit in the house.

I like running old trains I work on.  

Very true Marty.  I'll be honest, if I had not inherited all of my grand fathers postwar trains, all I would have in my house would be modern ones.  I am really taken back by what is offered today.  When I operate my MTH locos with DCS, its like I'm sitting in the cab myself.  Its hard to live in the world today and not give in to the modern electronics.  Cell phones, laptops, Garman GPS and the like, heck, I have it all.  Being 53 ill have to admit, while I use and have all of the modern devices, I still am amazed every day by what we can do now.  The encyclopedias on the shelf days are indeed over. 

What I do observe, old school train guys always throw rocks at modern trains but it usually does not go the other way

Are we reading the same board?

Mr Union Pacific posted:

Very true Marty.  I'll be honest, if I had not inherited all of my grand fathers postwar trains, all I would have in my house would be modern ones.  I am really taken back by what is offered today.  When I operate my MTH locos with DCS, its like I'm sitting in the cab myself.  Its hard to live in the world today and not give in to the modern electronics.  Cell phones, laptops, Garman GPS and the like, heck, I have it all.  Being 53 ill have to admit, while I use and have all of the modern devices, I still am amazed every day by what we can do now.  The encyclopedias on the shelf days are indeed over. 

I agree there are a lot of amazing things out there, but I'm not convinced it's all good. Albert Einstein warned about becoming too dependent on technology. I can't count the number of times I've gone somewhere to eat and see a table with young people and none of them are talking to each other, they are all texting or whatever they're doing on the phone. I wouldn't be on OGR if it wasn't for my laptop and I do appreciate having a cell phone especially when the car breaks down, but I don't live on these things like I see most people doing. I barely talk on my cell except to my wife or to tell someone a short comment. I do short texted if I need to tell somebody something without a phone call and it's good for business if your out a lot. How many people have been hit by cars because they aren't watching where they're going. A couple of years ago a young fellow walked right into me because his face was buried in his phone. He hit the ground because I'm bigger than he is and it was like he walked into a tree.

I suggest trying modern conventional. Many have postwar style motors that can be easily serviced. Others have can motors which I have found to be nearly indestructible. The electronics are limited to e-units and sound boards which can be unplugged and replaced. So far I have never had to replace an electronic e-unit or can motor. Any soldering you might encounter isn't any worse than typical soldering during postwar maintenance. Williams still makes such engines plus there are tons of mint MTH and Lionel conventional engines on the market from the 1990's and early 2000's.

   Well, I feel better about my "rocks" since my general attitude about train tech is not built on lack of ability, but lack of enough detailed  knowledge that would greatly increase chances of me being successful ,more quickly, in electronic board trouble shooting. And help those lacking knowledge even more than I, learn about electronics just like model railroaders from "the old school" once did. (1803, no joke, that old)

  JGL is only trying to make you realize electronics are not as hard to learn as it first appears. Same actions in a different form. If we had enough info on our boards and components -vs- a bunch of parts with no standard numbers to cross- reference, many that see a" great mystery" today, might come to see a small puzzle tommorrow. To top things off, the a missing piece of the puzzle (a part) can sometimes be built from scratch (using other parts to duplicate the first.) All we lack is better access to info.

   All those strange values you don't understand yet, have better uses in the design world. You'd be surprised how often "almost any diode" or similar statements is true.

 IMO it boils down to proprietary info and sharing it. The MFG position seems to be clear, nobody wants to share those papers anymore after the K-line thing.

To top it off, no "opt out" for the old sch....old conventional operators. Buy the the whistle, buy the bell, just give in or go... Oh well 

IMO micro electronics will reduce some repair careers in the future. I wouldn't want to do it; too small & surgery pays better. I'll be reaching for a (normal sized) bridge rectifier or two too, some day.