MPC and Pullman motors

Quick answer, no, but more than just a few did have Pullmor motors.

Does any know which MPC era engines had the Pullman motors?

Most of them.  Those that did not would be a shorter list.  And it's Pullmor, not Pullman.  Do you have a particular locomotive in mind?

All the F units, all the GP engines, and electrics had Pullmor motors.  They were very bad running engines.  The big steam also had Pullmor motors.  I had them all back then and do not miss those days.  I had the hudsons and they were all Pullmor motors.  About that time Lionel came out with a GG-1 with twin pullmor motors.

When I first discovered Williams FM locomotives with dual can motors I thought I died and went to heaven.  My first York I purchased a Lackawanna FM from a very young kid named Mike.    I still have that locomotive and that young kid and I have become very good friends.

Some GP locomotives were equipped with can motors late in the MPC era. 

• 8263 ATSF GP-7 (1982)
• 8369 EL GP-7 (1983-85)
• 8375 CNW GP-7 (1983-85)

I do not remember any of those and I had many locomotives.  The first GP engines with verticle can motors I purchased were Williams.  Bobby, if memory serves me well, those engines you mentioned may have had those small truck can motors.  Gosh, another bad memory of what we had to settle for.

Marty, That's pretty cool!!

Listed the GP's with can motors above, courtesy TM's last guide (corroborated with Greenberg's Fundimensions guide).  The first one had one can motor, the other two dual can motors.  Agree the can motors run smoother and have better speed range (esp. low speed), but we should mention for the op's benefit they do not growl like Pullmor motors.  Don't you miss the growl, or does it not matter with RailSounds and ProtoSounds?  

The first Lionel loco I purchased with the little truck motors was a Soo Line RS-3.    At the time I wished my Charger six pack would come off the line like the mini rocket RS.   K Line also did the truck mounted motors.  Those were never popular with the serious operators.  They went from stop to flank speed instantly.  Our hobby has come a long way and today we have some great trains.  

All the F units, all the GP engines, and electrics had Pullmor motors.  They were very bad running engines.  

IMHO most of the MPC locomotives, including GP's and electrics ran OK.
Some folks prefer can motors, and that's fine, doesn't mean the locomotives with pullmor motors are no good.

We all grew up with Pullmor motors.  The post war motors ran excellent.  When MPC came along, the story was not so.   MPC was a new hope foir train guys and we jumped on almost everything they made.  

My vote is for the growl, especially that dual Pullmor growl cans can’t muster! Nothing like finely tuned duals growling at slow speed IMHO.

Rich

To each his own......nothing like a PW/MPC pullmor.....

I have several and they run well, growl and all .

Marty- I've got a bunch of K-line jack rabbits that I've changed to series wiring and they run much slower now.

Anyone have the part number for the brushes handy? Need a set for a 6-8250 Geep.

Bob

Did you folks forget the "lovely" dc only starter set crap ? Or just trying to? 

I didn't like mpc vertical diesel motors. Spoiled by postwar? The steam wasn't too bad..... including the vertical General 

  Marty, Wow, you weren't kidding about being a big man in the past. That Vette really puts it in perspective. Eye to eye with Carol Shelby or Shaq it seems (?)   I might have to look up to see your chest if we were put face to face. (my whole hand stretched wide fit in the palm of those other big men)

My layout currently runs engines with the Pullmor and can motors.  Its about a 50/50 split. The can motors undoubtedly run smoother and low speed performance is possible. The Universal Pullmor motors are heavy duty and my post war engines dating to the 1940's are still running.  You can't kill those things. They were used in Lionel engines to the early 1990's  and I agree that some of them were not as good as the P/W quality was. P/W engines were designed to run fast as they were toys and kids love to run them at full speed. They just don't run well at slow speeds.

My favorite though, is the Pittman can motor, a high quality, rugged, heavy duty, long lasting  US made design that was used in early Williams engines. Those engine run great and pull strong from a creep to high speeds.  The industry itself eventually migrated to the Mabuchi DC can motor. That company makes a wide variety of product in Japan and now China. Their high end line is of good quality, the low end low cost line, not so so much. Today I believe that cheaper low end Chinese Motors are used by all the importers. They run well but I question their life span but when they burn out you just unscrew the motor and install a new one.

RSJB18 posted:

I have several and they run well, growl and all .

Marty- I've got a bunch of K-line jack rabbits that I've changed to series wiring and they run much slower now.

Anyone have the part number for the brushes handy? Need a set for a 6-8250 Geep.

Bob

The last brushes I purchased directly from the Lionel parts department were not usable. I suggest getting after market brushes. 622-121 should fit.

C W Burfle posted:

RSJB18 posted:

I have several and they run well, growl and all .

Marty- I've got a bunch of K-line jack rabbits that I've changed to series wiring and they run much slower now.

Anyone have the part number for the brushes handy? Need a set for a 6-8250 Geep.

Bob

The last brushes I purchased directly from the Lionel parts department were not usable. I suggest getting after market brushes. 622-121 should fit.

I have these for my post war motors. The ones I took out have the small stepped down end. Are they interchangeable?

Bob

Dennis have 4 early williams trainmaster engines with dual large pittman motors and agree excellent pullers with a visible magnet under each truck and run nice at slow speed . These of course had no flywheel and had to be run to a crawl nearing shutdown. Opening one up being curious they have replaceable brush spring set if one finds a NOS pittman which luckily found 6 from a seller on the bay  for a song few years back.

Here is one example of NOS motor that uses same brush setup that i have used them from .

RSJB18 posted:

C W Burfle posted:

RSJB18 posted:

I have several and they run well, growl and all .

Marty- I've got a bunch of K-line jack rabbits that I've changed to series wiring and they run much slower now.

Anyone have the part number for the brushes handy? Need a set for a 6-8250 Geep.

Bob

The last brushes I purchased directly from the Lionel parts department were not usable. I suggest getting after market brushes. 622-121 should fit.

I have these for my post war motors. The ones I took out have the small stepped down end. Are they interchangeable?

Bob

The stepped brushes are 8040-150. 

I would just use the 622 brushes.

I checked Train Tender, they say to use the 622 brush.

C W Burfle posted:

RSJB18 posted:

C W Burfle posted:

RSJB18 posted:

I have several and they run well, growl and all .

Marty- I've got a bunch of K-line jack rabbits that I've changed to series wiring and they run much slower now.

Anyone have the part number for the brushes handy? Need a set for a 6-8250 Geep.

Bob

The last brushes I purchased directly from the Lionel parts department were not usable. I suggest getting after market brushes. 622-121 should fit.

I have these for my post war motors. The ones I took out have the small stepped down end. Are they interchangeable?

Bob

The stepped brushes are 8040-150. 

I would just use the 622 brushes.

I checked Train Tender, they say to use the 622 brush.

Thank you sir! I cleaned the commutator since it was pretty dirty. Figured a new set of brushes would be in order as well.

Bob

If the brushes are free of grease / oil, and are not too short, I would reuse them. Just rub the end on an index card to bunish them.

I did not check the length on them yet but they were a bit below the top of the holders when I took them out. I got interrupted mid repair yesterday so I will get back to them tonight and check.

Thanks again.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

The Universal Pullmor motors are heavy duty and my post war engines dating to the 1940's are still running.  You can't kill those things. 

Truer words were never spoken.   My  friends who visit at Christmas are amazed when I tell them the Lionel 726 Berkshire (with its original 671M1 motor) pulling an 18 car freight train on the holiday layout is 71 years old.   

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I consider a Pullmor motors produced during the MPC era.  I recall white brush plates.  When I purchased my 8753 GG1 in 1978, the motors were different.  They have the black rounded brush plate assemblies like the post-war motors.  

The motor I'm working on right now has the white plastic brush plate Dan. The older pullmor motors were made out or bakelite.

Bob

I have the MPC motor on both my Sante Fe F-3 A-B-A units as well as my G,S&O GP-9 and  they run just fine at moderate speeds .True they dont operate well at slow speeds abd they dont coast like my MTH PA-1s,but they pull well.

RSJB18 posted:

I did not check the length on them yet but they were a bit below the top of the holders when I took them out. I got interrupted mid repair yesterday so I will get back to them tonight and check.

Thanks again.

Sounds like they are long enough.

Dan Padova posted:

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I consider a Pullmor motors produced during the MPC era.  I recall white brush plates.  When I purchased my 8753 GG1 in 1978, the motors were different.  They have the black rounded brush plate assemblies like the post-war motors.  

I think people use the term Pullmor to describe any open frame, universal Lionel motor.

I don't care very much for those early MPC white brushplates because they melt very easily when trying to solder or desolder wires to the brush holders or field terminal.

I just bought the MPC-Era B&O Budd Car Service Station Special.  I cleaned out the original grease and repacked with Red 'n Tacky, and oiled the axles and such with Liquid Bearings.    It is an amazingly smooth runner.  Super quiet.  You'd think it had a Can Motor.

Jon

Dieseler posted:

Dennis have 4 early williams trainmaster engines with dual large pittman motors and agree excellent pullers with a visible magnet under each truck and run nice at slow speed . These of course had no flywheel and had to be run to a crawl nearing shutdown. Opening one up being curious they have replaceable brush spring set if one finds a NOS pittman which luckily found 6 from a seller on the bay  for a song few years back.

Here is one example of NOS motor that uses same brush setup that i have used them from .

That's the one!  IMO the very best motor ever installed in an O gauge train. Many people are not aware of it but as you pointed out the brushes are replaceable, a feature rarely found on can motors. Williams, Weaver and a few older Lionel products have used these. You don't see them used much anymore as they are high quality and more costly than what is being used today. I would venture to say that these Pittman motors would last nearly as long as the Pullmor motors. They are strong pullers.

MPC engines dominate my list of favorite engines to run.  The 8900, 8002, 8003, 3100, 8309, 8157 and the 8480.

I think all except the 8900 have pullmor motors. 

All of those indeed are equipped with Pullmor motors, including the 8900 unless it was modified.

What, me worry?

I like the MPC Geeps with Pullmor motors. I converted some non powered units to power since they only have one motor and running at least two lashed up make pretty good pullers. Most can be had pretty reasonable also. You can also lash up Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, Jersey Central, Lehigh Valley Pennsylvania, Conrail etc to run post merger equipment.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

The first Lionel loco I purchased with the little truck motors was a Soo Line RS-3.    At the time I wished my Charger six pack would come off the line like the mini rocket RS.   K Line also did the truck mounted motors.  Those were never popular with the serious operators.  They went from stop to flank speed instantly.  Our hobby has come a long way and today we have some great trains.  

RE: the K-Line units...

If you had a transformer that started at 5-6 volts, like most postwar-style power supplies, they were indeed way too fast at the low end. With these you had to use a transformer that could output less than that in order to tame them, as I did in my floor-layout days with long trains pulled by double-headed MP15 or S2 units.

In the more recent past, I did the same with Lionel's GP38 locos using the same motors. In this example, I was using a Z-1000 (and a near 40' long train) to produce a start way smoother than these sort of locos could normally accomplish.

---PCJ

Dan Padova posted:

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I consider a Pullmor motors produced during the MPC era.  

Well, it's more complicated than that. Not all Pullmors are the same. With Pullmor motors (like most things in life), there are significant variations. During the MPC era and later, as well as in Postwar, the two primary variations were the Type I Pullmor and the Type II Pullmor. Other variations and improvements were introduced later during the LTI period. 

Most of the Postwar motors were Type I, but not all. The Type II motor was originally developed during Lionel's downsizing period in 1955 in response to cost-cutting demands. The Type II, the less expensive version, was used on road switchers in the MPC era. There are exceptions to that, too, however. For example, the MPC era No. 8477 New York Central GP-9 from 1984 had a Type I motor and power truck similar (though not identical) to the older Lionel power trucks of the Geeps produced in the 1950s.

While in the MPC era Lionel used the Type II on most road switcher units, on its higher line engines, including F-3s, FMs, GG-1s and Berkshire steamers, they retained the more expensive Type I Pullmors, just like the Postwar versions. These are fine-running, bulletproof motors which, like all Pullmors, run better and better as they are broken in.

As to the newer era Pullmors, for example those in the Post War Celebration series, these are quality Pullmors, including in the Geeps and other road switchers. I have quite a few of the TMCC Geeps and a number of F-3s from the late 90's and early 2000s, and they run very well indeed. Once they are broken in adequately, they can be run pretty slowly, too. I have a friend who bought a PWC Texas Special TMCC F-3 set new, and has run the wheels off of it. It has grooves in the pickup rollers, and it's still running great. 

@Dieseler where did you find that dual-shaft Pittman motor?  Did it come out of an O-gauge train, or something you picked up surplus on an auction site??

breezinup posted:

Dan Padova posted:

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I consider a Pullmor motors produced during the MPC era.  

Well, it's more complicated than that. Not all Pullmors are the same. With Pullmor motors (like most things in life), there are significant variations. During the MPC era and later, as well as in Postwar, the two primary variations were the Type I Pullmor and the Type II Pullmor. Other variations and improvements were introduced later during the LTI period. 

Most of the Postwar motors were Type I, but not all. The Type II motor was originally developed during Lionel's downsizing period in 1955 in response to cost-cutting demands. The Type II, the less expensive version, was used on road switchers in the MPC era. There are exceptions to that, too, however. For example, the MPC era No. 8477 New York Central GP-9 from 1984 had a Type I motor and power truck similar (though not identical) to the older Lionel power trucks of the Geeps produced in the 1950s.

While in the MPC era Lionel used the Type II on most road switcher units, on its higher line engines, including F-3s, FMs, GG-1s and Berkshire steamers, they retained the more expensive Type I Pullmors, just like the Postwar versions. These are fine-running, bulletproof motors which, like all Pullmors, run better and better as they are broken in.

As to the newer era Pullmors, for example those in the Post War Celebration series, these are quality Pullmors, including in the Geeps and other road switchers. I have quite a few of the TMCC Geeps and a number of F-3s from the late 90's and early 2000s, and they run very well indeed. Once they are broken in adequately, they can be run pretty slowly, too. I have a friend who bought a PWC Texas Special TMCC F-3 set new, and has run the wheels off of it. It has grooves in the pickup rollers, and it's still running great. 

I whole heartily agree with this assessment. Any separate truck/motor Pullmor locomotive is a decent performer. Modern era versions of the "type 1" Pullmor run just as good as their postwar counterparts.

I've never been fond of the "Type II" integrated truck/motor Pullmors or the spur gear Pullmors found on 027 steam locomotives (2055, 2046, etc). Those don't pull well and run too fast.

My entire engine roster is either "Type I" Pullmor or dual vertical can motor powered, with the exception of a horizontal motor F3. The Pullmor equipped engines have no problem pulling a 20 car train around at 30 scale mph. That's about what the MTH/Williams conventional engines can manage powered by a postwar ZW.

Wow, that is a lot information thanks for all the replies. Let me digest it and get back to you.