SLQ32 posted:Norton posted:SLQ32 posted:Thank you Dave. Good possibility. But it not just the sound it’s a stutter as well. And only in forward. reverse is perfect.
Thank you for your assistance
This could very well be cause of both the sound and speed variations. If so its an easy fix if you have the correct size allen wrench.
Pete
Thanks yeah this not a problem. I just don’t want to void the warranty if i remove the shell.
Who would know? Its three screws.
Pete
I am glad to assist but my hat's off to Alex once again. I figured that he would probably be able to diagnose the problem with great accuracy since he knows his way around these locomotives like I know movies and movie lines(if I've seen them).
I will find out tomorrow if mine has the same issues it seems that all of these Hudson's will most likely have whether they are the custom runs or the catalogued ones. I know that I am not the best under the hood worker when it comes to just about everything unless I've done the work a few times. Just don't give me a sodering iron as something will definitely be melting that is not supposed to.
That reminds me, I will have to make sure I have some Allen wrenches on hand.
I am very interested in acquiring the Hudson - probably the 5413 or 5452 when they show up; I am always amazed at how this forum is relentless in pursuing solutions; got a huuuge amount of help from the forum when I had to repair my Big Boy; hopefully, someone will take the plunge and go ahead with Alex's and Norton's suggestions.
Hello everyone,
Once i receive mine i will do a "look at the inside detailed video of it " this way we can all see how things look under the boiler and tender shell.
Thanks for the kind words Dave !
Alex
No problem Alex. Can't wait to see what it looks like inside when you open yours up as that will definitely be my guide on "follow what Alex is saying and you shouldn't need to call him for repairs because you messed up by not following"
SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
SLQ32 posted:
After seeing this i noticed the drivers are not quartered correctly at 90 degrees. I believe this is the cause of the wobble. I did lube all joints in the running gear.
Time to return to Lionel.
That's what mine does on the roller stands. It does not make the noise yours is making.
harmonyards posted:SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
I will look at it again i did not notice this at first.
SLQ32 posted:harmonyards posted:SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
I will look at it again i did not notice this at first.
It might have just been me, but it looked like the front axle set was out of quarter......I could have been mistaken, ....**** that won’t be the first time I was wrong.......Pat
FEET, I did not notice the wobble on the track just on the rollers. I looked at the quartering and it is not 90 degrees. I don’t know if the main drivers are pressed on the axle or held in place with a screw. They should be able to be repositioned on the spleen of the axle. (if the axle has one). 
A screw would be obvious. The TMCC drivers were held on with a screw and the axles keyed so they could not be out of quarter. These are pressed on.
Pete
SLQ32, that engine definitely needs to go back to Lionel. There’s no way anyone could offer possible solutions without disassembling the engine and we all know that would void the warranty. What a shame.
romiller49 posted:SLQ32, that engine definitely needs to go back to Lionel. There’s no way anyone could offer possible solutions without disassembling the engine and we all know that would void the warranty. What a shame.
Yeah i agree. If it was out of warranty or bought used i would’ve had it opened up already.
well i filled out the form at Lionel
Not hopeful at all. Of 5 times i attempted to e-mail them in the past or fill out any form on their site they have not once responded.
I did get a rep on the phone once through sales (of course they want to make money)
Lionel stopped answering emails when Mike Reagan left.
You may have to call and sit on hold for an hour and wait/hope someone answers. Or there will be a message telling you to call back during normal buisness hours because they went home early.
Good luck!
SLQ32, I’m so very sorry that you got to send it back.....that sucks period!...I hope they get it straight...I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and all was good, you’d be singing praises, not anguish........Pat
OK, I am a little dense here on quartering; I took a look at my H10 (2 8 0) and focused on the rearmost axle; on the left side, the pin is at 12 oclock, on the right side, the pin is at 3 oclock - so 1/4 ahead of the left; identical to the pins on the other 3 axles.
So, SLQ32, you have looked at both sides of an axle and saw that they are not in the above configuration??
I would be interested to see what John Rowland's configuration is. What I am driving at is that one can take the loco out of the box and by merely looking at the drive wheels know if that engine will need to go to Lionel for repair.
harmonyards posted:SLQ32, I’m so very sorry that you got to send it back.....that sucks period!...I hope they get it straight...I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and all was good, you’d be singing praises, not anguish........Pat
yeah exactly. How a $1,300 product can pas QC like this boggles the mind.
RickM46 posted:OK, I am a little dense here on quartering; I took a look at my H10 (2 8 0) and focused on the rearmost axle; on the left side, the pin is at 12 oclock, on the right side, the pin is at 3 oclock - so 1/4 ahead of the left; identical to the pins on the other 3 axles.
So, SLQ32, you have looked at both sides of an axle and saw that they are not in the above configuration??
I would be interested to see what John Rowland's configuration is.
Exactly. The right driver should be 90 degrees out from the left. so if the right is at 12 o’clock the left should be at 3 o’clock (or 9 o’clock) al long as it is a 90 I need to measure mine. Visually they don’t look close to 90 looks like 12 and 2 o’clock 
Thanks SLQ, if quartering is the problem, then one will know right away by looking at the pins.
Since John has a good one, he could verify the above.
Thanks SLQ32 - progress. Now, maybe, back to Alex's suggestion; neat photo's!!
I don't know that the rocking is an issue persay. If you look closely at the wheels. They tend to move in an orbital motion/ back and forth based on the drive rod position because of the excessive play that Lionel has had in the axle bushings for the last several years. TMCC and early Legacy locos have much tighter tolerances and minimal play.
This motion isn't noticeable when the loco is pulling a load on track.
If you turn the loco upside down and grab a pair of drivers between two fingers and twist you will feel this play.
I won't challenge Alex's advice, he's certainly more knowledgeable than me, but that forward chatter sure sounds like gear noise.
Lateral play in both the axle shaft and the motor worm allow the gears to move to one end of the contact surface or the other depending on the direction. In your case, possibly the forward direction has the mating surfaces of the gears going too far to one edge.
I'm curious if these hudsons have the intermediate gear on a shaft in the gearbox above the center driver. I've found this intermediate gear and shaft to be a weak link in the newer Lionel gearboxes. while this gearbox is key to ultra slow speed performance. It adds 2 more gears to the gearbox, and is less reliable than the typical worm and axle gear setup.
I've had one of these intermediate gears be faulty out of the box, and a few years after warranty repair the shaft bushing showed significant wear so I parted with the loco.
This intermediate shaft can usually be seen behind the "motor driven" driver between the spokes, although it may be hard to see through boxpok wheels.
This intermediate gear shaft can be seen in this legacy mohawk video ( not mine) starting at the :22 mark just behind the 3rd set of drivers. : https://youtu.be/0y60BIICyng
SLQ32 and friends,
Here are four pictures of the quartering of the center driver on my Lionel 1931810 New York Central Hudson #5415 from Mr. Muffin's Trains. It appears to match the quartering shown in the above illustrations.
The engine does not wobble, though at age 69, I am starting to show an irregular limp as my knees give me fits. My waiting times when calling Lionel Customer Service have been short lately. Put Lionel on speaker phone so you can do another task while you wait for them to answer. I always have a cup of coffee and a cookie at my desk. "Me like cookies."
Sincerely, John Rowlen
SLQ32 posted:FEET, I did not notice the wobble on the track just on the rollers. I looked at the quartering and it is not 90 degrees. I don’t know if the main drivers are pressed on the axle or held in place with a screw. They should be able to be repositioned on the spleen of the axle. (if the axle has one).
Mine does not wobble on the track, just the rollers and it wobbles like the devil. Looks like I will have to call Lionel and send mine back too.
FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Ricko I agree with your assessment. I think the same. I have seen the same with MTH diesels. Repositioning the worm on the motor shaft is what is needed. I have heard people shim the mount to raise the motor itself with the same affect.
John Rowlen posted:FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I checked this on mine and the rollers (ball bearings) are perfect.
If there is a mechanical problem or miss alignment I feel “running it in” will cause additional damage to bushings ect.
Times like this i miss my father. he was a master machinist, tool and dye maker. These were child’s play for him.
John Rowlen posted:FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
My rollers are brand new, first time I used them. I don't have a layout yet, still working on building one. Looking at these pictures that have been posted and looking at my drivers I believe they are not quartered properly.
SLQ32, I agree about missing our fathers. My dad got me interested in trains as we built several layouts as I grew up. The Christmas season is filled with memories of new Lionel accessories under the Christmas tree and trips to the Trading Post in Cleveland to develop the list for Santa.
Have a good weekend.
Sincerely, John Rowlen.
Not to hijack, but my 5416, a special run from Pat's Trains, shudders a bit starting out from a standstill, but then pretty much goes away. If I put my hand on top of it, you can feel it vibrating a bit. Does not do it in reverse. Might try to run it in a bit, but it is strange that it only does it going forward.
Thank you Larry, I was curious about how other engines were performing. Seems to be a trend with these engines.
One last thought: I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward. It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward.
Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups. Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn. The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering. In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.
I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet. Only some previous Northern engines had this problem.
The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem. If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.
I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I understand John. Sounds reasonable. I was not aware these had a Dog bone. Now that you mentioned it i remember having an HO Athearn blue box CSX that had this problem. Took me forever to find the growl. going back 1997 maybe.
Its all coming back to me now LOL
I have a small Train Show here tomorrow (today) i will ask around as well.
Thank you so much for your time and everyones thoughts on this. It’s very much appreciated.
RickO posted:Watch Mr. Muffins video closely, especially when the loco goes forward.
Vibration starts at 1:08 and appears worse at 1:20. Its seems to vibrate, then smooth out, vibrate then smooth out like one side of the gear mesh is worse:
By watching the ornamental bell on top of the boiler, the shudder is evident every time the crank pin on the left-side main driver reaches the 5:00 position.
I have a Legacy Atlantic 6-11225 that has a similar issue; it's most evident at certain slow-to-medium speed steps. When it happens, the drawbar chatters like a telegraph key. (Search the Forum for another thread about Legacy J3a shudder to see what I mean.) In my case the flywheel is on tight; I'm convinced that it's a gear mesh issue, made more noticeable by aggressive and ill-timed intervention by the speed control algorithm.
In the case of my Atlantic, the worm gear is pressed on the motor shaft. The gearing is "tight" (30:1) and self-locking, so the natural momentum of the moving train can't contribute to smooth operation. Adjusting the mesh would be tough. The motor is mounted at an angle, so adding a shim would change both the engagement depth AND the fore-aft position of the worm. I never tried because a thick sandwich of circuit boards and wiring limits access to the motor and gearbox.
At the Hudson's price point, hopefully the worm gear is on it's own shaft, and connected to the motor by a U-joint. Most likely the gearbox is cast into the chassis. Ball thrust bearings should have been used to limit fore-and-aft movement of the worm. But I don't really know how it's made; I couldn't find an exploded parts photo on Lionel Support. I know there's at least one major change from the 6-38041 design: On that loco, the driving wheels were removable, and affixed to the ends of the axles by small Phillips screws. Photos on this thread show the ends of the axles, so I know the wheels on this current edition cannot be removed in this fashion.
I'm sorry for your issues gentlemen, I empathize greatly. Following this topic in hopes of learning more!
John Rowlen posted:One last thought: I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward. It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward.
Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups. Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn. The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering. In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.
I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet. Only some previous Northern engines had this problem.
The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem. If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.
I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Dog bones are a buck apiece. Rather than stuff the ends just loosen the allen screw that holds the flywheel to the motor and move it closer to the gearbox or order a longer dogbone. The TMCC Hudsons use dogbone drives and don't have this issue as do most MTH engines.
You guys are making mountains out of molehills.
Pete
Pete I agree that replacing the dogbone, or even making one from scratch is no big deal. But I've seen this shuddering and wobble in other products, including some that don't have a dogbone between the motor and the worm shaft. I think it's a gear mesh issue being amplified by the speed control.
In this case folks are saying their locos run smoother in reverse. If there's too much thrust play in the gearbox and the dogbone shaft is too long, when running in the forward direction, the worm shaft could slide rearward from the reaction torque and place a thrust load on the motor shaft. In that case, a shorter dogbone would be part of the solution. I haven't seen a parts diagram or even a photo with the shell off, so I'm just guessing.
The wobbling or rocking side to side could be a bent axle, wheels not pressed on straight or not punched on center, etc. I still have two MPC-era New York Central Hudsons that wobble down the track. I'm all about nostalgia, but not like this :-)
Norton posted:John Rowlen posted:One last thought: I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward. It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward.
Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups. Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn. The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering. In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.
I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet. Only some previous Northern engines had this problem.
The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem. If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.
I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Dog bones are a buck apiece. Rather than stuff the ends just loosen the allen screw that holds the flywheel to the motor and move it closer to the gearbox or order a longer dogbone. The TMCC Hudsons use dogbone drives and don't have this issue as do most MTH engines.
You guys are making mountains out of molehills.
Pete
The mountain is $1,349. and horrible QC. Out of the 11 steamers i have. Lionel, K Line, MTH, Sunnset (3rd rail) This is the only one with the with these symptoms. Buy a new car that needs to be in the shop before you can drive it off the lot? Lemon. It happens. Can i fix myself Absolutely. I work on Television broadcast cameras worth over 400k. these toys are child’s play. Do i need this after paying 1,300 NO.
The end
Do you lose anything by lubricating it as you would with any new locomotive and running it with a consist for an hour or so? Sometimes they need to break in. Respectfully, I get the sense that there is a contingent of folks who immediately hit the panic button and head to the internet to complain. I agree you should not have to open a new loco but running it might solve the issues. Also, running a loco on rollers is not a reliable indicator for what it does on an actual layout.
Ray, I did lube it. Problem persists. On the track, reverse is perfect. forward there is stuttering and the grinding noise. The wobble is seen visually on the rollers because it is vertical movement only. On the track it is seems less because the same vertical movement is stretched out across a horizontal plane creating more of a sign wave. To the eye of course it will seem diminished on the track vs rollers.
The fact it operates smoothly in reverse vs forward is an indication of mechanical problem. This will not be rectified by “running in”. Any way I am waiting to hear back from Lionel.
Yesterday I received my 2015 New MTH J1 Pacemaker fright set. 1-J1a Hudson ps3, 5 premier flatcars with 2 Pacemaker trailers per car and premier NYC caboose. For just under $1,200 shipped.
The engine runs like a Rolex. No wobble No noise. Crawls at 1 forward and reverse. New! factory lubed no “run in” smooth!!!!
I have also received Lionel engines like this as well. Smooth running out of the box NO “run in” required.
Just to clarify my particular situation with this custom run J3. I came here not in a panic but to share my situation and to see what others have experienced with this 2019 lionel legacy engine. Some run great some have issues. I want to thank everyone for taking the time and sharing there thoughts and experiences in diagnosing possible causes.
After all this is what is great about this forum.
Mine arrived. Beat me home for Asia. I am opening it for Christmas and excited to do so. In all my dealings with Steve (Mr. Muffin), if there is a problem, he will fix it.
John
jbmccormick posted:Mine arrived. Beat me home for Asia. I am opening it for Christmas and excited to do so. In all my dealings with Steve (Mr. Muffin), if there is a problem, he will fix it.
John
Agreed. Mr Muffins has been great and i have had discussions with Jeff. Unfortunately they are out of stock for an exchange. This particular engine i received passed Lionel QC. I believe the responsibility falls on Lionel to correct.
Hello all,
I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis.
I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY
Thanks , Alex
Alex, was there any grease in the gear box at all when you opened her up?
Alex M posted:Hello all,
I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis.
I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY
Thanks , Alex
Alex, what about mixing STP, just a little with the grease before lubing the gear box? I know that sounds crazy but STP is really slick stuff and may help in the break in.
Alex, I’ve had situations where I had to put very thin shims under the gearbox cover to correct the same problem. That eliminated the binding when tightening down the cover screws. Do not place the shim over the bearings.
Great analysis Alex.
FWIW if you want to break in mechanical parts you really don't want something that reduces friction but just the opposite. Break in oils have minimal friction reducers. You want the rough surfaces to wear smooth.
If you have rollers, do what Alex did and run it hard before adding more lubricant.
Pete
Great video, Alex, thank you. Mine won't shudder going really slow, but if I open it up a bit, it will. Fine in reverse. I also applied Red N Tacky shortly after I got it. I put something under the rear truck and lifted the front up so the rollers were still touching and wound it up for about a minute or so and got no shudder...which I guess was similar to you lightening the downward force on it in the video where you didn't get the shudder either. But if its own weight is on it, shudder. Hopefully, like you and Dave suggested, it just needs a long run in. Thanks again for posting. It is a beautiful engine.
Great video Alex and thank you! seems like you nailed it. After watching your video i remember finding this similar problem on an ho IHC engine. removing the worm gear cover did the trick. I guess my memory is failling me.
Thank you for opening it up and showing us the issue.
superwarp1 posted:Alex, was there any grease in the gear box at all when you opened her up?
Yes there was grease that Lionel had put in , I put in a bit more.
Alex
Excellent help Alex, eases my mind a bit! My 5452 is on its way. However, I do have some questions that maybe you or some of the fellas can answer:
1. When you mention the gearbox cover, is that only accessible by taking the boiler off as is shown in your video? Or, is there a cover on the underside that also contains the grease screw? I know the drivers on my Big Boy have covers over the gear box on the underside held in place by 4 screws allowing easy removal of the cover.
2. I plan on loading up the gearbox with a syringe of RednTacky and squeezing in as much as it will take; will overfill cause a problem?
feet posted:Alex M posted:Hello all,
I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis.
I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY
Thanks , Alex
Alex, what about mixing STP, just a little with the grease before lubing the gear box? I know that sounds crazy but STP is really slick stuff and may help in the break in.
I'm not to sure about that, maybe another forum member can chime in on this
Alex
romiller49 posted:Alex, I’ve had situations where I had to put very thin shims under the gearbox cover to correct the same problem. That eliminated the binding when tightening down the cover screws. Do not place the shim over the bearings.
Agreed , excellent idea
Alex
Norton posted:Great analysis Alex.
FWIW if you want to break in mechanical parts you really don't want something that reduces friction but just the opposite. Break in oils have minimal friction reducers. You want the rough surfaces to wear smooth.
If you have rollers, do what Alex did and run it hard before adding more lubricant.
Pete
Hi Pete,
Thanks my friend !
I'll have to watch this tomorrow when I come home from work. Busy tonight and will be heading to bed soon. Busy day.
Larry Mullen posted:Great video, Alex, thank you. Mine won't shudder going really slow, but if I open it up a bit, it will. Fine in reverse. I also applied Red N Tacky shortly after I got it. I put something under the rear truck and lifted the front up so the rollers were still touching and wound it up for about a minute or so and got no shudder...which I guess was similar to you lightening the downward force on it in the video where you didn't get the shudder either. But if its own weight is on it, shudder. Hopefully, like you and Dave suggested, it just needs a long run in. Thanks again for posting. It is a beautiful engine.
Yes Larry it really is a beautiful engine, let it run for a while and it should be fine
Alex
SLQ32 posted:Great video Alex and thank you! seems like you nailed it. After watching your video i remember finding this similar problem on an ho IHC engine. removing the worm gear cover did the trick. I guess my memory is failling me.
Thank you for opening it up and showing us the issue.
My pleasure
Alex
RickM46 posted:Excellent help Alex, eases my mind a bit! My 5452 is on its way. However, I do have some questions that maybe you or some of the fellas can answer:
1. When you mention the gearbox cover, is that only accessible by taking the boiler off as is shown in your video? Or, is there a cover on the underside that also contains the grease screw? I know the drivers on my Big Boy have covers over the gear box on the underside held in place by 4 screws allowing easy removal of the cover.
2. I plan on loading up the gearbox with a syringe of RednTacky and squeezing in as much as it will take; will overfill cause a problem?
I mentioned a worm gear cover but this was on an HO scale IHC 4-8-4 i repaired in 2001 Not sure if this is what you are referring to. It had the exact same symptoms. I totally forget about it.
Regarding the covers; just asking if you turn the loco up side down and look at the area of the middle driver, is there a cover there that can be removed?
RickM46 posted:Regarding the covers; just asking if you turn the loco up side down and look at the area of the middle driver, is there a cover there that can be removed?
There’s a small screw between the center drivers it’s marked grease. Just unscrew it and push grease in it with a syringe.
Alex
Hey Alex
Thanks for taking a look at this and the great video. Nice to know its something that easy to correct with some lubrication and some running
I really appreciate Alex opening up his loco and posting the videos. Very informative!
I really wish Lionel AND MTH would redesign their steam loco chassis' to use a "KTM-style" gearbox separate from the frame, that clamps around the worm wheel. This would virtually guarantee a perfect mesh. And even if there was a problem, you could just replace the gearbox. Every other scale uses a separate gearbox. As usual doing the right thing costs a bit more, but it's worth it in the long run!
EDIT: Although you can't see it too clearly in Lionel's online parts photos, from Alex's previous posts it appears that the Vision Line Niagara has a separate gearbox. I wish they would have made the J3a this way. Worth every penny of the extra cost IMO.
Alex M posted:......it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit.
Alex M posted:.....let it run for a while and it should be fine
Just pretend it has a Pullmor motor, and do what you do with a Pullmor. 
Break 'em in to smooth 'em out.
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
So in other words, run the loco for a while and don't press the panic button, head to the web and complain?
;-)
Glad that is all it is.
For me, No panic. Headed to this forum to see who else had this because i never saw this problem from a Lionel engine before. And to all those who joined the discussion with analysis, Thank you. This is the beauty of the community here.
;-)
To be clear I am not singling you out. I have noticed a tendency on the forum, any time there is a issue with a product, for people to come out of the proverbial woodwork and b#$tch endlessly about product quality, while also announcing that they have made another 27 preorders. I guess these folks have too much time on their hands or are gluttons for punishment. Or perhaps it is an over reaction.
In your case I am happy a knowledgeable tech chimed in to resolve the issue.
Best of luck with the new Hudson and happy thanksgiving.
The forum is always a good place to check for a solution but also the manufacturer needs to be contacted as well. If they are in the loop it helps everyone.
And complaining about others complaining is constructive? Much less off topic.
People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it. This is one of the purposes of online forums.
SLQ32 posted:And complaining about others complaining is constructive? Much less off topic.
People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it. This is one of the purposes of online forums.
Ok @SLQ32 now you peaked my interest? Who do you work for? I am in broadcasting also. You can an email me at my profile to keep it off board.
SLQ32 posted:And complaining about others complaining is constructive? Much less off topic.
People join to share experiences and look for answers for problems. As a Television broadcast engineer I have helped and have been helped on many occasions in an emergency situation within 1 hour of a live sporting event by the society of broadcast engineers. NFL NBC Sports Fox Sports ESPN ect. so folks can sit back and enjoy a sunday game. We also “*****” about products from Ross, Sony, Ikagami GrassVally Fujinon Cannon ect ect. I find nothing wrong with anyone looking for answers or “*****ing” about a product. In fact There has been several changes and re engineering because of it. This is one of the purposes of online forums.
SLQ32....are you going to try what Alex suggested? or does your locomotive still need to be returned? ......I’d just like to know if I decide to purchase one of these locomotives, that you’ve resolved the issue with yours....
and thank you Alex, for taking the time to void your warranty....😊
Pat
Currently I am NY State Media services. Prior i was at Time Warner Sports and did contract work as E2 and Shading with several sports venues.
SLQ32 posted:Currently I am NY State Media services. Prior i was at Time Warner Sports and did contract work as E2 and Shading with several sports venues.
NEP Group here.
Pat, I thank Alex for showing it’s not really a problem like i had thought and a simple run in period is all that’s needed. I am not going to open it and void any warranty. I am waiting to here back from Lionel.
Pat, I have the 5452 on the way; I am going to: check to make sure the axles of the tender spin freely; out of the box, run the engine a bit to see if it shudders; in any case, force RednTacky into the grease port and run it hoping it will get smooth. AND, last but not least, consider sending the loco to you for adjustment - how do you like them apples?
RickM46 posted:Pat, I have the 5452 on the way; I am going to: check to make sure the axles of the tender spin freely; out of the box, run the engine a bit to see if it shudders; in any case, force RednTacky into the grease port and run it hoping it will get smooth. AND, last but not least, consider sending the loco to you for adjustment - how do you like them apples?
Not a problem Rick, always good to see your smiling face romping about the forum!..☺️...IF I were to get one, my first move would be to throw that Cannon motor in the trash can...she’d have a Pittman before the evening! ..I’d void the warranty before before the brown truck left the driveway!....😜........Pat
Alex M posted:Hello all,
I received my Hudson this morning , it seems to me the issue is simple. it needs to be broken in a bit ,i placed it on stationary rollers and let it air out . Then i added grease to the worm gearbox, in my case it solved everything. I do not recommend opening up the engine like i did, it will void your warranty. Just use a syringe and shoot grease into the fill hole located on the underside of the chassis.
I WILL POST VIDEO'S SHORTLY
Thanks , Alex
Alex, great informative video as always. I am hoping I have time Thursday morning to pop down some straight track on the rug to put a little running in on mine before heading to my sister's for Thanksgiving day festivities. I know that sleep will be involved later on lol.
Thanks once again for educating me. I think I will have to pick up some of that grease you mentioned in the video as well. I know my 1990's Mohawk needs some grease and oil since it has been in the box for some time before I get that out to run again.
Thanks Alex!!!
I've been away from the forum and trains for a bit, but I can see Alex is still saving the day for everyone. Good stuff Alex, Congrats!
Todd
A thousand thanks to Alex!
Skip , Todd , and Rick it’s my pleasure!!
Alex
Hi guys, I just got around to unboxing and testing my hudson from Mr Muffin. I have the same issue as some of you are having. It runs very smooth in reverse and jerks a lot in toward, I tried squirting grease into the gearbox as Alex demonstrated. It has not worked for smoothing out the engine in toward. Any other suggestions or should I just contact Lionel?
Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:Hi guys, I just got around to unboxing and testing my hudson from Mr Muffin. I have the same issue as some of you are having. It runs very smooth in reverse and jerks a lot in toward, I tried squirting grease into the gearbox as Alex demonstrated. It has not worked for smoothing out the engine in toward. Any other suggestions or should I just contact Lionel?
Hi DJ,
Before contacting Lionel I would run it for a while and let it break in.
Alex
Alex M posted:Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:Hi guys, I just got around to unboxing and testing my hudson from Mr Muffin. I have the same issue as some of you are having. It runs very smooth in reverse and jerks a lot in toward, I tried squirting grease into the gearbox as Alex demonstrated. It has not worked for smoothing out the engine in toward. Any other suggestions or should I just contact Lionel?
Hi DJ,
Before contacting Lionel I would run it for a while and let it break in.
Alex
Ya beat me to it Alex, I was just going to suggest the same thing!.......Pat
I don't own this model but am learning more about how these things work, and thanks for the videos, Alex.
I've been using white lithium grease to add to the ports on bottom of my steamers. It seem Red & Tacky is popular - is it better and are all these greases compatible (what manufacturers use, etc)?
Where do you guys get the syringes or whatever you're using to insert the grease through the small holes?
Look on Amazon Paul
Thanks, Dave.
I guess I'd have to pack that little puppy full of grease.
Up until now, I've been buying grease at the hobby shop, but where are you guys getting yours? And, can you mix different greases together in the gear boxes?
Paul Kallus posted:Thanks, Dave.
I guess I'd have to pack that little puppy full of grease.
Up until now, I've been buying grease at the hobby shop, but where are you guys getting yours? And, can you mix different greases together in the gear boxes?
Same place on Amazon. I would imagine that the best way would be to pop just enough. I was thinking of popping some grease on a plastic spoon and putting that in there just easy. About mixing, not sure. I do know that Alex said to clean out old dry grease, use a Q-tip.
I've found RednTacky at Home Depot and Walmart. Injected a bunch into my new Hudson 5452 right out of the box and it has moved smoothly in both directions.
I am glad to say my Hudson worked great right out of the box. Finding the smoke unit in the tender was a bit tough but once I found it all good there as well.
I am having a problem now with the main smoke unit. The whistle steam blows plenty of smoke, but the main stack very little, and I am not sure why. Here is what I have done:
and still there is very little smoke.
Perhaps I have over filled the smoke unit?
Thoughts on what to do to resolve this???
John
John, I have had to add more smoke fluid, approx. 60 drops to my new Lionel engines. If you put too much fluid in the engine you may see fluid splatter on the top of the engine around the stack.
Good luck, John Rowlen
Thanks for the reply @John Rowlen. I did have some fluid at the whistle but none at the stack. I am using JT's mega steam for the fluid, and one other point to make is that the smoke unit is fairly noisy, a constant noise.
I let the engine run for about 30 minutes last night. I am somewhat at a loss since the whistle shows plenty of smoke flowing out when deployed.
John
John, tried to see a parts breakdown for my 5452 with model number 1931480 and got no hit on the Lionel parts web site; I was trying to see if the smoke unit is a dual smoke unit - 2 fans, 2 resistors.
As far as the smoke fluid needs, I think I will go with Laidoffsick's advice on drops. It may be a good idea to put some in, let it soak a bit, add more after a bit of time, and repeat. See what comes from that.
Rick and Dave,
Guys thanks for the advice. I will put some more drops in and let it soak over night.
I will also call Mr. Muffin and Lionel tomorrow or Tuesday. I want this to work.
John
Now that I've repaired a few Lionel smoke units, I am not adverse to going into an engine or tender and having a look at the smoke units or speakers or sound cards; they are not that complicated ---- but that's me. I've repaired the smoke unit on my Lionel VL Big Boy with the help of the fellas on this forum - took awhile, went slow, found out that one of the resistors in the dual smoke unit had a beyond spec Ohm reading; ordered parts from Lionel and fixed it. Also, followed laidofsicks videos on smoke units - great help - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRcpFRtA6IY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asUWbJtfok. In your case, maybe sending it to Lionel for repair is an option.
After reading Ricks post I was depressed about having to box it up and send it back. Between this engine and my gremlin on adding an engine to my DCS Wi-Fi (separate thread) I had pretty well had it.
After dinner last night and a few glasses of wine, I decided one last try. I had let the engine sit for the past 24 hours. Put in on the tracks, fired it up, let it run. No smoke coming from the main stack, smoke coming from the whistle when fired. There was plenty of smoke in the whistle. I decided why not just try to put some smoke fluid down the main stack, instead of the intended hole where it should go. Sure enough that worked. Smoke now comes out of the main stack too. More smoke fluid in - more smoke - problem solved.
Interestingly the smoke for the stack and the smoke from the whistle looked like they were different colors. I am assuming what I was seeing was just the thickness of the smoke, and nothing more.
John
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