MTH 2 rail steam.

No.  They run fine.  Mine is a Hudson, but I have had a Northern, a Challenger, and a huge N&W Mallet on my test loop and all did quite well.  I was not happy with the appearance of my Hudson, so rebuilt the engine part with proper size cylinders and frame, and Lobaugh drivers.  Had nothing to do with operation; purely cosmetic.

I have two (ATSF 4-6-4 Blue Goose and UP Big Boy 4014 "as restored") that I'm running where they aren't supposed to be running (3-rail club layout with a 36" sharp curve in the mix). They run well and sound good. I've test run both of them conventionally (on 2-rail track with AC and DC power and they run smoothly that way as well. I also have a 2-rail "imposter" ATSF 4-6-4 Hudson (hi-rail wheels that can run 2-rail) which also runs well on 2-rail track.

The only thing I don't like (technical point) is that they're wired "like" 2-rail steam, but the positive/negative pickup wheel locations are reversed from standard. This shouldn't impact 2-rail operation but it's something to take note of if you have other conventional DC steam.

I  heard that earlier MTH 2 rail steam power were good runners, and being a supporter of Fire-up 611 I ordered the new MTH J  PS3 convertible 2rail/3 version to run in "excursion" service during open house running on my PRR themed railroad.  I have been disappointed ever since I opened the box and put it on the rails.  Initially the locomotive would jerk as it ran down track, and randomly stall at times.  The jerking grew more severe (popped a knuckle on a baggage car) and eventually lead to a failure of one of the pins in the 6 pin plug connector that ties the wiring harness to the printed circuit board engine/tender drawbar.   The engine and tender separately pick up from both rails, and share power through the 6 conductor drawbar.  The engine pickups up left rail power via sprung plungers that press down on the half axel of drivers 1,2, and 4.  The electrical path is through light duty springs and appears to be negatively impacted by axel lubrication.  Heavy non conducting paint on the screws that tie wires to each plunger didn't help.  I used my trusty old Simpson meter to uncover the painted screw issue.  Polishing the screws helped, but the plunger pickup electrical path remained somewhat intermittent.  Un-sprung drivers add to the problem entering super-elevated  curves.  The engine picks up right rail power through axel wipers on the tender truck.  The engine won't run without a reliable circuit path to the tender as that is where much of the PS3 electronics reside.  The tender picks up left rail power by axel wipers on the front truck, and right rail power from wipers on the rear truck.  The tender body is electrically isolated from both rails.  MTH uses 6 conductors on the  printed circuit board engine-tender drawbar plus the spring wire under the drawbar to provide 7 electric paths between the circuit boards in the engine and tender.  In my case apparently one of those paths is intermittent and became progressively more so with running.  At this point I've been waiting 3 weeks for a replacement PS3 drawbar from MTH customer support.  

Other comments/opinions:

  - lots of sound - but it all  comes out of the wrong (tender) end of the locomotive.  I'd rather give up the fan driven smoke for a speaker in the smokebox.

- weak pulling power.  For a heavy locomotive it pulls far less than comparably (and lighter) sized brass USH, OMI, Sunset ones. My  Sunset T1 will pull 12 GGD aluminum body passenger cars up a 2.2% grade, the MTH J could only handle 6.  Part of the problem is that the leading and trailing truck springs are too strong and take weight off the unspring drivers.  Shortening the leading and trailing truck springs helped - the MTH J can now haul 8 GGD Pullmans up the mountain.

- difficult to couple the engine and tender.   As has been reported with numerous posts on the 3 rail forum the drawbar with 6 pin vertical plug is difficult to connect.  For me the best way was to lay the locomotive on its side on a towel, make the 6 pin plug connection, and then lift the engine and tender on to the rails. 

- wrong length drawbar - The N&W J came with a 40mm length drawbar - too long for the engine /tender apron to ride horizontal on the tender's deck plate. A 35mm drawbar would allow the apron to ride properly for most O scale 2 rail curves.  MTH lists 35mm PS3 drawbars but they are out of stock.  My suspension is they shipped the" convertible" 2rail3/rail model with the long drawbar so the model could run on tight 3 rail curves.  If impatient one could purchase from MTH a card with a set of 30, 35, and 40mm PS3 drawbars on it for $45 plus shipping.   I'll wait. (Caution - don't purchase the similar PS2 10 pin drawbar set).

- clunks through frogs -  Minor point but compared with sprung O scale locomotives, the MTH J makes a  loud "thunk" sound passing through turnout frogs.  The same statement can be made about sprung diesels vs un-sprung China drive diesels- annoying but not a show stopper.

-PS3 electronics - Works ok in DCC mode but does not offer as much user control of motor, lighting and sound as some DCC decoders

Bottom line - I'm an unhappy first time MTH customer.  In retrospect perhaps a better route would have been to hunt for a clean used Williams/Samhongsa brass N&W J and install a QSI Q3 DCC sound decoder.  

I have ordered the 2 rail version # 22-3630-2 not the convertible one. This doesn't impress me one bit after reading this. 

http://mthtrains.com/22-3630-2

I have 2 MTH steam engines. One runs pretty well. However, the other stalls over and over after less than a minute and requires restarting. I am not sure what to do to correct this problem. Otherwise, I am quite satisfied with features in the DCS system and its remote.

I have four MTH steamers, and all have exhibited some, or all, of the symptoms described by Ed.

I have solved the pickup problem by adding plunger pickups to the inside face of the driver wheels and the tender wheels.  

The tethers are another matter.  Each has its own flaws.  The wireless tether I have had no electrical problems with, but none of their fixed lengths are short enough to couple my L1 to its tender within a short enough distance to have a sensible firing plate.  The old Anaconda tether works fine if one is willing to settle for a 2 foot gap (yes, that's half an inch) between loco and tender.  making the gap shorter by choosing the "display hole" in the drawbar causes the rather large tether plug to foul the tender on curves.   It also puts a sideways stress on the socket, and eventually loosens the solder connectors to the board.  Converting to a straight tether gets rid of the Anaconda (BE AWARE THE PIN MAPING IS NOT THE SAME) allos close coupling and a realistic appearance, but evenually loosens the socket solder connections.

To be fair, I have not had pulling issues, but then three of mine do not have trailing trucks, and the one that does has a rather weak spring.

As much as I love the 611. I am kind of contemplating getting the 3rd rail K2A,but it's not a J and 56" radius curves I am out of room for. They do seem to have it together over there at 3rd rail. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions.

Brandon Cole posted:

As much as I love the 611. I am kind of contemplating getting the 3rd rail K2A. They seem to have it together over there. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions.

No, you are not. I have about 19 Sunset/3rd Rail brass steam locomotive models and really enjoy operating them. Any one of them usually elicits many favorable comments from visitors.

I only have space for 54 radius and K2A requires 56 radius. That's an issue. 

I have two MTH 2 rail Mohawks and each exhibited problems. I replaced the batteries with capacitors and now they both work flawlessly. I have an older MTH two rail Dreyfuss Hudson with the plug and it has a surging problem, not sure what it is. I also replaced that battery with a cap and I still have a problem. The older Dreyfuss does not seem to "listen" to the DCS as well as my newer engines. (I am running DCS V4.20.) I have several MTH 2 Rail diesels and they have all been flawless.

I did notice that all engines ran much better when I upgraded my power supply from a Control20 to a Bridgewerks DC controller with 10amp per side capability. I believe that if you are not providing sufficient power, the engines will "shed" various functions to make the best of the power that is provided. Smoke is a large power user, so I use it only at times for starting, but that is no longer a problem with the larger power supply.

Maybe the ones I tested were all from the 1990s.  I think if i were going to add an N& W "J" I would add another Williams 2-rail.  I understand there are inaccuracies, but I am not enough of an N&W guy to know what they are. I am delighted with the one I have, and only wish I had not re-motored it when I removed the unbalanced flywheel.

A 2-rail J sold just a week ago for around $300 - that is bargain territory, in my opinion.

I really do not care for the way MTH picks up 2-rail power.  I much prefer rim insulated drivers.  But I am not the market they are aimed at.

Brandon, while I don't have any specific information on the K2a I have heard that quite often the Sunset locomotives will do a little sharper that the minimum advertised radius. I have a Sunset Mohawk and I believe it can handle a 54" R curve and it also a minimum of 56"R. I will check it tomorrow and post the results back here. 

As for MTH, I have 8 steam locomotives. One Railking that was converted to 2 rail, one Premier 3 rail, one Premier 3 that was converted to 2 rail and 5 of the scale wheel locomotives. I like the way they run and sound, however I do not currently have a layout so I don't know how well they pull. A long time ago I ran the first 3/2 I ever got on a friends 3 rail layout,it was the CNJ Pacific. If I remember correctly it pulled 16 freight cars which was less than the 3 rail version with a traction tire did. I also ran this locomotive at my former train club. I don't remember it making any clunking sounds going across a switch but I could be mistaken as it was a long time ago. 

I agree about the wireless tether. It is not fun to connect and I connect mine the same way Ed does.

i haven't had operational issues except one of the 3/2 locomotives started to stall a lot and it turned out the wheels had gotten dirty. This was when I had a temporary layout which is gone. Once I cleaned the wheels it ran fine again. Now all I can do is back them on and off of my turntable but I haven't had any stalling that I can speak of. 

I wish Sunset would put sound decoders in their locomotives as I would be more apt to buy one. Or at least run all the wiring so I don't have to cut the locomotive up to do a DCC install. I have 3 Sunset locomotives and they do make an excellent product    

Brandon - I think you'll find your model is also "convertible" to 3 rail.  My MTH 2015 catalog N&W 611 carried item number 22-3571-2.  It was listed in the catalog as a 2 rail model (like your  J in the 2016 catalog).  MTH's 2 rail steam locomotives with the -2 suffix are delivered with scale wheels but have a 2-3 rail switch under the tender and you'll find a package of bolt on 3 rail rollers in the box.  Earlier (1990's era) MTH 2 rail steam locomotives had a different electrical setup and were not "convertible".  They may not have had split axels. 

  Based on the catalog illustration the 2016 MTH 611 J is painted in a nice high gloss finish to represent how it looks today. The 2015 model I have has a satin finish.  It will be interesting to see what other changes they've made - possibly extended coal boards on the tender???

If I decide to keep the model I'll install pickup wipers on the back of the drivers tires.  I've held off doing so as I didn't want to void the warrantee.  Hopefully the replacement drawbar will show up and solve some of the electrical issues.

One positive aspect of this for SPF's - for the first time a Pennsy T1 out pulled a N&W J - go figure! 

I've got Sunset Js, Williams Js and Overland Js, each having it's own positives but no major negatives. Best bang for the buck is Williams.  Best engine to modify to the version on you want and to paint is Sunset.  The museum piece........Overland!! 

I saw the drawings that Harold Davenport did of each version of J for Overland.   He worked for N&W/NS and had pulled the original drawings with the modifications on the drawings so Tom Marsh had unbelievable information to work with. 

I've never seen the MTH J but if you want something reasonably priced that runs great right out of the box watch ebay for a Williams J..............just my personal opinion.

 I've been watching this thread closely. I have roughly 100 MTH engine products. Only a very small percent have had to be worked on for me. I can't argue with anyone who posts facts about what they have. It is what it is. I would never have bought so many if I had that kind of troubles.

 The "wireless" drawbar seems to be a crucial factor in a lot of posts I read over problems. You must take care when handling it. Our grandsons broke theirs and that engine took a lot of abuse. I actually just leave mine connected as much as possible. If it gets broke, it must be replaced, period. The receptacle can get broke with rough handling also. G fixed our grandsons and because they are so young, I now gave them older PS1 models to learn how to handle stuff better.

 There have been certain engine releases that have had their own flaws. The earliest (late 90's??) MTH engines I have, I added wipers to. The most recent ones, run flawlessly for me. My engines do make noise going over frogs but so does everything else that runs over them, so I don't know any better. They don't stall or sputter and that's all I care about. My switches are large Atlas 2 rail and the frogs are currently dead. So I feel that is pretty good.

 Ed Rappe posting above, probably has ten times (100 Times?) the experience with stuff than I do. I fully respect his comments and feel bad that he has had a bad experience with it. I did not buy the J so I can't really say anything about it.

Keystoned Ed posted:

  Based on the catalog illustration the 2016 MTH 611 J is painted in a nice high gloss finish to represent how it looks today. The 2015 model I have has a satin finish.  It will be interesting to see what other changes they've made - possibly extended coal boards on the tender???

This would be a pleasant surprise to me if it had a glossy finish to it, but I'm sure the auxiliary tender will be satin finish! 

Needless to say I will be keeping my preorder of the 611 and hopefully won't have any problems with it. I will probably have it displayed mostly, but want to be able to run it on my small 10x11 single loop layout that's in the works, don't make fun of my limited 2 rail space lol. 

I am wondering if these engines need DCS to operate correctly and If DCC is the problem? Joe I am guessing you have DCS by your signature? What are you using AC or DC power supply? 

Thanks everyone for the help and keep it coming. 

Brandon. 

Brandon Cole posted:

 

I am wondering if these engines need DCS to operate correctly and If DCC is the problem? Joe I am guessing you have DCS by your signature? What are you using AC or DC power supply? 

 

Brandon

I tested an MTH F7 ABA set for a magazine review.  It has a PS3 system.  I ran it with DCS, DCC, straight DC, and straight AC.  The table below is listed as Control System: Power Supply---Functionality

DCS:  Lionel Modern ZW (18 VAC and 10 Amps)---All features accessible

DCC:  Lenz Set 100 (5 amps) S/W version 3.6, track voltage 16 volts (Thanks to Terry Terrance for use of his layout and system)---All DCC functions are supported. All functions that were available in DCS were accessible with DCC. The only variation is DCS allows separate control of the marker, interior and number board lights, whereas in DCC these can only be turned on and off as a group.   

Straight AC:  Modern Lionel ZW (18 VAC and 10 Amps)---Control of bell and horn, and by various sequences of the bell and horn, activates the speed control and announcements.  

Straight DC:  MRC Pure Power G power supply: (18 VDC max at 10 Amps)---The loco has constant intensity directional lighting, engine start up and shut down sounds, and smoke.   The latter can be turned off with a switch, the loudness of the entire sound system is controlled by an onboard potentiometer.  There are no additional functions (bell, horn, etc) and squealing brakes.  

Conventional Operation (be it straight DC or straight AC) is what I would call "Pain in the A@@ Mode"  The start up sequence in conventional takes several seconds.   It can take up to 30 seconds, depending on how charged the BCR is. The engine starts up at 6.5V, and moves at 7.5 Volts.  If more than 7.5 Volts is applied right away, the engine will not move to prevent sudden coupler snapping starts.  In that case, lower the voltage below 6.5 Volts.  If you lower the voltage below 6.5 Volts after the engine has started up, even if it is running, it will shut down and you have to go through the start up sequence.   In other words in my opinion, conventional operation is NOT RECOMMENDED. 

And for the record, unlike my experience with their steamers, I have never had a problem with an MTH diesel

I like to try different power supplies and I also run in G scale. I started my G scale with AC power and then switched it over to DC. I have MTH's (all), Lionel (180w AC bricks), Bridgewerks (3x DC packs), and a fixed DC power supply that "Tank" gave me. My engines run good with any of my power supplies. I would stay away from the low end Lionel (CW80?) packs as the MTH engines don't like them I have heard.

 MTH engines will run on straight DC, AC, DCC, and DCS. Once I bought my DCS system, I sold off my DCC. At that time, MTH engines would not run on DCC. I still have my first MRC Prodigy DCC that I use to test stuff when purchased with DCC inside. I never took the time to try it in O scale to this day, other than on my workbench.

 The biggest thing that is important to smooth running, is preventing big power drops around the layout. Even when I ran DCC, my other brands of G scale engines on DCC would struggle. So I always tune my layouts as I build to make sure the power is good all around. Most problems for me aren't from poor signal alone. They stem from poor power at various points. The things I've learned help keep me away from troubles like that now.

 If you ever choose to go with DCS, there are some simple rules to follow to ensure good signal and power distribution. It is the best value of a system that is out there. Many guys prefer DCC for absolute control I believe? Once I convert another brand of engine to MTH's PS system inside, there's no tweaking needed. It monitors the flywheel to ensure proper performance. I do like the newest DCC decoders for their premium sounds. I get what I need out of my system.

 I own (have owned) Digitrax, NCE, MRC, QSI, and Locksound...and?? decoders. I really enjoyed the HO scale locos I have with factory sound decoders inside. My favorites were Atlas and Broadway Limited. G scale, is all over the place in what people run and will purchase. Having MTH release their products in G, scale led me to MTH in the first place.

Shwoo, I'm tired! Darn flu.