Wow...that's harsh.

MTH going to cancel MTH?

Looks like most of the RailKing rolling stock. Crazy. 

not crazy , time for some innovation!!!   Maybe reality will set in!!!!!!!!!!

I am with arrsd90. We in the market are getting bored with the same old stuff with new paint and electronics and a higher price.

I had the Railgon ordered and saw one on real train last week.  Wasn't sure that railroads really had those cars.  Oh well.

Traditional has been superseeded by the scale seeking diehards.

I wouldn't exactly say 'most' of the Railking rolling stock? Looks like there is still more left than was cancelled, then there is the Ready to Run catalog.

Not sure I am a 'scale seeking diehard', but I am one of the ones that have switched mostly to the scale sized Premier rolling stock.

Could it be the Menards effect?

I live in the semi-scale world.  But can't really complain, because I didn't order anything from this catalog. 

Having loaded up (and up) on traditional sized rolling stock over many years, I find myself going for the scale stuff now. I suppose it was inevitable. What really got me was the scale woodsided boxcar series from Lionel. Still, my postwar collection is sacrosanct and going nowhere!

clinchfield bill posted:

I had the Railgon ordered and saw one on real train last week.  Wasn't sure that railroads really had those cars.  Oh well.

A newer Railgon style is also pictured below. There are also Railbox cars. Lionel and K-Line have both made Railgon cars, and MTH probably made them earlier as well, so you can find them around.

arrsd90 posted:

not crazy , time for some innovation!!!   Maybe reality will set in!!!!!!!!!!

OOOOOOOOOOO   YYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAA

Selling old stuff with a different dress doesn't make them any better looking. 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Could it be the Menards effect?

Could be, at one time MTH was the best bang for the buck, Menards is sure giving great products and the best bang for the buck now. 

I have had to practically give away my gons with junk loads.

There's no more paint schemes left for that tired one size fits all gondola that both MTH and Lionel have been peddling.

Time for New tooling.

SIRT posted:

Traditional has been superseded by the scale seeking diehards.

Not sure this accounts for all of it. Lots of scale seekers, for sure, but the majority of operators have space limitations and remain in the market for the more traditional sized stuff. It would seem that part of the problem is that MTH has produced more than the market can bear, and probably has for some time. Their market is pretty flooded. Seems like quite a few dealers are full up in inventory, and have regular MTH sales to get rid of it.

Those gondolas do not match the design of the real railgon gondolas.

Somebody needs to mass produce actual models all the various railgon gondolas of the past 40 years.

There are many reporting mark changes and repaints of the original railgun gondolas.

Andrew

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Could it be the Menards effect?

Doubt it. People on the Forum talk about Menards, but Menards' geographical area is limited, and most people outside of those on the Forum who buy this stuff probably haven't heard of Menards and/or aren't going to mail order cars from them. Nationwide their sales are dwarfed by the other manufacturers, I suspect.

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Could it be the Menards effect?

Could be, at one time MTH was the best bang for the buck, Menards is sure giving great products and the best bang for the buck now. 

Absolutely... don't count Menards out... just because they're a new kid on the block.  The VALUE they're delivering to the market is arguably the biggest bang for our dollars today.  And folks want value for their dollars today. 

I'm expecting my first Menards order any day now:  the 6-pack of WWII art boxcars, a 4-pack of the TOFC w/American Eagle, and 2 flatcars with Military Mack Trucks.... that's 12 traditional-sized O-Gauge cars for roughly $288 (including shipping), which is $24/car.  NOTHING from any of today's importers comes close -- with the exception of OLR.  And we don't yet know if they're in the game for the long haul, or if those OLR offerings were one-off factory blow-outs from China being facilitated/marketed by a US importer.

I saw some select Menards rolling stock first-hand at the LCCA booth during this past April's York show, and I can't tell you how impressed I was.  We've seen photos of Menards products here on the forum.  But until I saw those WWII art boxcars and the TOFC w/American Eagle in person at York, I couldn't believe that kind of VALUE existed today for "new" products.

And although I consider myself more of a "scale" guy in O-Gauge, I've made some recent "traditional-sized O" rolling stock purchases recently -- just because the products called my name, and the value was so terrific.

So yes... I would say that if importers expect to crank out the same stuff at ever-increasing prices and expect enthusiasts to support their bloated expense base, they're living on borrowed time.  Not at all surprised to see MTH cancel these products if the dealer pre-orders weren't there.  Gotta also give MTH credit for coming right out and saying "diminished interest in some select Railking freight cars..."

David

P.S.  I saw late last night that Menards is now offering a free Military truck for EACH qualifying product that you order from now thru May 1st... a $15 value.  So the Menards "value story" keeps  getting better and better.  I'll probably order a few more goodies now from the qualifying list.  And for each of them purchased, I'll receive a complimentary Military truck as a bonus.  S-W-E-E-T !!!!    It's really refreshing to buy from a company who's delivering so much value to the market, that we don't mind spending money with them... as opposed to making a single purchase hurt more each and every time we reach for our wallet (to pay for a re-issued product with either no or only incremental improvements). 

Good Day David,

I agree 100%!  My thinking...........The "Menards Effect" has taken a large market share from Lionel, MTH and Atlas.

Regards.

Swafford

Menard effect?  Maybe.  As stated above, Mernards is a regional brand and maybe their sales for O gauge trains is not well known outside of here....but I can tell you MTH isn't well known outside of here either.  Logically they are competing for the same dollars in some areas.  I buy all brands if I see something I like.  And truth be told Mernards has gotten more of my train dollars lately.  I know I am not alone.  BigRail 

Charlienassau posted:

2016 Volume 1 RailKing O Gauge Rolling Stock Cancellations April 26, 2016 - Diminished interest in some select RailKing freight cars from the 2016 Volume 1 catalog have caused us to cancel production on these items. For your convenience, we've listed the items below.

 

Charlie:   Your posting is so dark its virtually unreadable.    Can you change the color ratio?    Thanks.

maybe they will show up,,,in the s gauge catalogue,,,,,,!!

Any MTH Premier cancellations? Hopefully not... 

RadioRon posted:

Charlie:   Your posting is so dark its virtually unreadable.    Can you change the color ratio?    Thanks.

 

Charlienassau posted:

2016 Volume 1 RailKing O Gauge Rolling Stock Cancellations April 26, 2016 - Diminished interest in some select RailKing freight cars from the 2016 Volume 1 catalog have caused us to cancel production on these items. For your convenience, we've listed the items below. 30-72164 Conrail Gondola w/ Cover 30-72165 Western Maryland Gondola w/ Cover 30-72166 Northern Pacific Gondola w/ Cover 30-72167 Railgon Gondola w/ Cover 30-72168 Virginian Gondola w/ Junk Load 30-72169 Reading Gondola w/ Junk Load 30-72170 Wabash Gondola w/ Junk Load 30-72171 Nickel Plate Road Gondola w/ Junk Load 30-74838 Norfolk Southern 50' 2-Door Plugged Boxcar 30-74839 Alaska 50' 2-Door Plugged Boxcar 30-74840 Safety Train 50' 2-Door Plugged Boxcar 30-74841 Florida East Coast 50' 2-Door Plugged Boxcar 30-75538 GACX (Wonder Bread) Airslide Hopper 30-75539 GACX (Brach's Candy) Airslide Hopper 30-75540 Norfolk & Western Airslide Hopper 30-75541 GATX Airslide Hopper 30-75542 BNSF 4-Bay Cylindrical Hopper 30-75543 Union Pacific 4-Bay Cylindrical Hopper 30-75544 Alberta 4-Bay Cylindrical Hopper 30-75545 Chessie 4-Bay Cylindrical Hopper 30-76635 BNSF Flat w/Airplane 30-76636 CSX Flat w/Airplane 30-76637 Norfolk Southern Flat w/Airplane 30-76638 Pennsylvania Flat w/Airplane 30-79502 Burlington Northern Log Car w/ Logs 30-79503 Milwaukee Road Log Car w/ Logs 30-79504 Norfolk Southern Dump Car (no load) 30-79505 Ohio Central Dump Car (no load) 30-79506 Chicago North Western Slag Car 30-79507 Boston & Maine Slag Car 30-79508 Chessie Slag Car 30-79509 Union Pacific Slag Car

 How's that?

 

I probably skimmed over most of those in the catalog because they looked to be diesel or current, and not steam era.  Menard's is not every answer because of the modern trucks on their cars.....too much of a pain and expensive to change them to Bettendorf's when the Weaver supply of affordable trucks has vanished (darned trucks can cost more than the car).

The is a guy in Columbus Texas who tries to keep some reasonable PW runners for sale.  He did it so young people who say, mow yards, could add on to their sets.

The M cars, I think, are for those who are "runners", and are not very interested in "scale".  Some are not the exact body types a railroad used.  But on a car on a train buzzing down a layout, I do think even Donald Duck could size it up.

For example, I have some ATSF cars.  They are models of ones I saw while on the Amtrak version of the TX CHIEF and SUPER CHIEF/EL CAP in the mid 1970's.  Scale?  NO.  Bring back good memories?  YES.  Got them at or below $20.00 a car?  YOU BET.

Last week I phoned MTH to renew my membership in the MTHRRC. I pressed the number for the club phone and to my surprise the phone was answered by Rich Foster the number two person at MTH after Mike Wolf. I have known Rich for a long time and he has always been a most pleasant person to speak with. By Rich answering the club phone extension makes me think that there must be fewer employees there these days. I asked him three questions: I have not received any club publications in quite a while. He said that they have fallen behind in sending them out but one is coming soon. Is there any thought of a new Railking steam locomotive. One of the better known ones that MTH has not done is the New York Central 4-8-4 Niagara in Railking. Rich said that they have been looking into reworking the Union Pacific 4-8-4 die in order to produce a Niagara since the cost to produce a brand new die is very expensive these days. The last question. How about the new Amtrak Electric Locomotive the ACS-64? Again he said that they have been looking to produce it however Amtrak now wants a licensing agreement to use the Amtrak name on anything including going back to the first Amtrak engine and rolling stock that MTH has ever produced and collect a royalty on those products. Hopefully MTH and Amtrak can work out an agreement that works for both parties.

Ed New Haven Line.

ed new haven line posted:

...  I pressed the number for the club phone and to my surprise the phone was answered by Rich Foster the number two person at MTH after Mike Wolf. I have known Rich for a long time and he has always been a most pleasant person to speak with.   ...

A month or so ago...  when I was searching for Scaletrax #4 and #6 turnouts, I placed a call to Rich at MTH.  I left a message on his voicemail, and later the same day he returned my call while on the road at a trade show in NJ.  Great customer service!  Very professional and pleasant.

David

ed new haven line posted:

......... Amtrak now wants a licensing agreement to use the Amtrak name on anything including going back to the first Amtrak engine and rolling stock that MTH has ever produced and collect a royalty on those products. Hopefully MTH and Amtrak can work out an agreement that works for both parties.

Ed New Haven Line.

That's a bummer.  I was of the impression the work MTH did to deal with the UP issue years ago was likely to help in terms of all railroads.... I guess I don't fully understand how that played out.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

ed new haven line posted:

......... Amtrak now wants a licensing agreement to use the Amtrak name on anything including going back to the first Amtrak engine and rolling stock that MTH has ever produced and collect a royalty on those products. Hopefully MTH and Amtrak can work out an agreement that works for both parties.

Ed New Haven Line.

That's a bummer.  I was of the impression the work MTH did to deal with the UP issue years ago was likely to help in terms of all railroads.... I guess I don't fully understand how that played out.

-Dave

Good Day Dave,

Keep in mind, Amtrak is owned by the US Federal Government.  The MTH license agreement from the past had nothing to do with Amtrak.

Best Regards,

Frank

The Menards sales have probably gone up due to Lionel and MTH making the same old stuff with different graphics and increased pricing. I know that I do not want to pay $70-$80+ for a Boxcar.

JoeG

Don't count Menard's out.  I have bought a fair amount of stuff from them the past 18 months or so.  Said funds would have gone to Lionel or MTH but they didn't.  I don't live anywhere near a Menard's but they used some sort of package delivery system to get my stuff to me. 

Dave45681 posted:

RadioRon posted:

Charlie:   Your posting is so dark its virtually unreadable.    Can you change the color ratio?    Thanks.

 

Charlienassau posted:

2016 Volume 1 RailKing O Gauge Rolling Stock Cancellations April 26, 2016 - Diminished interest in some select RailKing freight cars from the 2016 Volume 1 catalog have caused us to cancel production on these items. For your convenience, we've listed the items below. 3

 How's that?

 Thank you!!!   Super!!

 

 

"not crazy , time for some innovation!!!   Maybe reality will set in!!!!!!!!!!"

Around 2000, Mike Wolf did an interview where he talked about his investment in new tooling. On average, it worked out to $125,000.00: A little less for some rolling stock and much more for some locomotives. It's now 16 years later and I doubt that cost has decreased, while at the same time the market is more diverse and saturated with product, new and much more used.

Mike Wolf is a train guy who has learned the business the hard way. A couple years ago at the YORK presentation, he mentioned that every time he comes up with a new product idea, Andy Edleman answers back "you're putting us deeper in the hole."

Anyone who thinks MTH must do new tooling, is probably more than welcome to make an interest free loan of at least $150,000 with no payments made for at least 5 years to MTH. Every single train company CEO has said the same thing, in all scales: It takes years to recoup and just break even on new tooling, especially when production runs are small. Lionel, Atlas and Sunset 3rd Rail are also quick to cancel when minimal orders are NOT met... Reality check.

Don't kid yourselves: Lionel, MTH and others are spreading tooling costs across their product lines. Add in actual production costs and from my information, that total payment has to be made upfront before product is shipped from China. Again, backed up by the RMT "STO" Ship to Order policy.

This isn't the end of the world. MTH is simply being wise. If there are no dealer orders, why should they make product to lose money on? Lionel cancelled a bunch of items from their R-T-R catalog, but there's still plenty more to choose from. People criticize MTH for going into other scales and markets. I think Mike is just being smart, and trying to keep his company going.

I heard people comment about the recent MTH and Lionel catalogs "Who is going to buy all this stuff?" They could lower prices, but that would also inevitably hinder new tooling. No company invests money into something they cannot make a return on.

And yes, every single piece of rolling stock Menards sells, is very likely one less sale for Lionel, MTH and Williams. But Menards doesn't have an entire product line like Lionel or MTH. And they're not doing new tooling, save for the more scale-like flat car. Even with that, they kept the cost down by adding a wood deck. Everything else has been more traditionally sized.

Here's the reality check: There's simply a glut of product on the market overall with not enough buyers. If the market was so strong, then all the companies and retailers that have gone under in the past decade might still be around... or someone else would have bought their business if they perceived it was that profitable.

And the traditional market is still larger... but there's more competition with years and years of prior production from AMT, MARX, Kusan, Lionel, MTH, Kris Model Trains, K-Line, Williams and RMT also competing with new product.

The scale side of the market is a more recent development and there isn't the decades worth of prior production. And what is there, like the Lionel 'Standard 0' and the early 1970's vintage Atlas, doesn't meet the demands of many scale enthusiasts today.

I've said it before: Anyone who thinks they know better and has millions of dollars to tie up, start your own company and prove everyone else wrong.

Wow. I didn't realize that RailKing was BTO these days too. 

SPSF posted a photo of a waffle-side (is that the correct term?) gondola - real-world common, for years and years, yet I know of none made in 3RO. I would be a buyer if they came out in the Premier line (not RK, probably). I, and others I know, have asked for these many times...but, none from M or L or A (surprisingly, even dynamic K-Line didn't make them). Enough waffling! No, it's actually not enough waffling...

As an aside, "SPSF", the aborted/denied SP/ATSF merger, always sounded like suntan lotion to me. Y'know: "what SPSF are you using, dear?". No disrespect. Just funny.

So brionel, what you are saying is mth has yet to fully recoup their tooling investments from as far back as 1993 when in their O gauge product lines the models have been made at least twice to three times over?  Now what about your theory applied to mth's ho line? Are there not decades and decades of ho product since the sixties? Are their not multiple players as well as mom & pop start ups in ho market-a lot moreso than O scale?  Are not mth's ho products the same ones already made by other mfg's? What about the limited standard guage market as well? My point as well as others on this forum is the market stagnation has been created by the manufactuters lack of investment in at least ONE new model- esp in the lovomotive sector - for 1/2 a decade now and is continuing! If the market is that saturated, then why is Lionel taking a gamble on scale 89' auto racks and 86' auto parts boxcars and passenger car sets? Are there that many modelers that can support such monstrosity's on our layouts? Why did k-line do the same when they were around? On this forum alone, how many of us have been pushing for the Gp40-2 phase 2 or a ge b23-36 dash 7 or an ALCo C-636 or a C430? you don't think a mfgs tooling investment in these models could not sell out several runs? But another run of a Hudson, K4 Pacific, mountain or a gp38 is OK?