MTH Instructions recommend oiling the pickup rollers UPDATED

but what they don't tell you is to make sure the oil will conduct electricity

I use contact cleaner, which also services as a conductor

For decades I have used LGB Special Oil (a synthetic gel oil) on all my contact rollers on both O and standard gauge engines with NO ill results. The key word here is SPARINGLY!  

I always follow the manufacturer's recommendations.  I use LaBelle light oil on the rollers, and have been doing so for years.  No issues that I can tell of.

I too go to Eastside Trains as my local hobby shop.  Great store, and they're certified Lionel and MTH service techs.  They always let me run my engines before taking them home.  And, they never call my wife to let me know that a pre-order is in!

Oh yah, great looking engine.

Alan

I use plain 5-20W motor oil for rollers and axles, never had a problem.  Light oiling is the key, it doesn't take much.

I have always used a light oil on the rollers, never a problem. 

I have always done it. Never an issue. It also quiets that irritating "ticking" some new MTH rollers make.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I use plain 5-20W motor oil for rollers and axles, never had a problem.  Light oiling is the key, it doesn't take much.

Do you use synthetic 5W-20?

Regardless of the lubricant used, oiling pickup rollers is a bad idea. The friction, arcing and heat will rapidly cause a hard gum to accumulate, jam the rollers, cause loss of conductivity, and premature roller wear. Then you are stuck in a perpetual routine of cleaning and oiling every few weeks to stop the rollers from seizing up. 

The service documentation in both Lionel and MTH user manuals has little credibility in my opinion. For example, take note of the fact that the oiling instructions contained in the above post say nothing of lubricating the load-bearing pinion gear bearings, or maintaining grease on the worm wheel and gear (which you cannot trust the factory to handle). MTH is not alone. Some of Lionel's lubrication instructions are mind-boggling. I have seen instructions to oil armature bearings that don't exist (such as on the brush plate of the 726 CC remake), and arrows directing users to apply oil to wheel surfaces, or other odd places, etc.

Sometimes a little common sense goes much further than a drop of oil.

I've never experienced issues with a very small drop of oil on the pickup roller axles, and I have never heard any blowback about rollers wearing out.  With no oil that tiny roller is wearing out the roller and the pin a lot faster than when it's lubricated.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, I strongly recommend a bit of lubrication on the pickup rollers.

I have been using a drop of SAE 10 oil on the pickup roller axles of my trains for several years without any issues.

ajzend posted:

... And, they never call my wife to let me know that a pre-order is in!

 

Now this service could come in very handy!! Might even be worth more than great service on your trains...I need to talk to my LHS about this one!! 

I also use Labelle light oil on pick up rollers, no problems so far in about 7 years. I believe both MTH and Lionel recommend oiling the pick up rollers.

Interesting video on oiling pick-up rollers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...0UgRc2vM_ne5B5cvX45g

"The rollers look to have a rubber inner core."  

Uh, as rubber in an excellent insulator, this would make them just "rollers", with no "pickup" involved.

Yes, any metal-to-metal moving parts benefit from oiling, and as pickup rollers are just funny-looking little wheels and axles, they definitely need lube - maybe more than most wheels, as they have a small diameter and therefore turn much faster than everything else rolling down the track.

Any light oil will do. 3-in-1 is what I tend to use.  Never had any oil block electrical pickup on my rollers. 

Don't use graphite dry lube. 

And, just to add to the heap of suggestions....and because it's what I have/use...

Atlas #192, Conducta Lube-Cleaner....a very light oil that is appropriate whenever the bearing surfaces will be conducting electrical power.

After ? years, I still have half a bottle.  Works just fine.

FWIW, always.

KD

The other day, a club member was having trouble with another member's  old, but never-run Lionel T1. It ran fine upside-down on the test bench, but was dead in the water when placed on the track. Investigation revealed the pickup roller axles were seized up with corrosion and would neither turn or conduct electricity. When he tested it on the bench, he used alligator clips on the roller bracket, and it ran fine, but when the clips were put on the rollers, it was dead. After working the rollers with cigarette lighter fluid (naphtha) and pliers, they were made able to turn, and then a few drops of Caig's DeOxit was applied on the roller axles, and the loco soon was running like a champ! DeOxit is great for removing oxide and corrosion, and also lubricates as well. A small bottle of liquid is about $15, but will last a long time. It is also available in a spray can as well, but in spray form it is harder to control and tends to go everywhere.

Bill in FtL

If it is a moving part, metal to metal(and sometimes plastic too), I lube it.

If oiling the pickup rollers causes them to get gummed up then likely either they are using the wrong lubricant or are using too much, there is a reason why they recommend using a light oil for this. I have used various light oils, also used tuner cleaner (unlike contact cleaner, it has a lubricant in it as well, and is designed to lubricate and allow conductivity).  If pickup rollers are seeing severe arcing, it is likely the roller is worn and not making great contact with the fail, or the rail itself is dirty or pitted. As far as heat goes and friction, if a roller is properly lubricated it shouldn't be heating up that much. 

I use CRC 2-26 to flush the rollers and lube.  And to me, lubricating the pickup rollers isn't much different from lubricating the axle bearings.  Electricity still makes it's way through.

I use Bachmann's E-Z Lube Conductive Contact Lube.  It works great and will really eliminate the old flickering lights as the coach is rolling down the track. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've never experienced issues with a very small drop of oil on the pickup roller axles, and I have never heard any blowback about rollers wearing out.  With no oil that tiny roller is wearing out the roller and the pin a lot faster than when it's lubricated.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, I strongly recommend a bit of lubrication on the pickup rollers.

You're probably right in many cases. I just can't bring myself to oil rollers anymore.  I'm probably just bitter due to a few bad experiences with passenger car  rollers that froze up with crud, and were promptly sliced by my Super O center rails. I still maintain that Super O doesn't cut rollers ----unless they stop rolling

Jeff Noll posted:

I use Bachmann's E-Z Lube Conductive Contact Lube.  It works great and will really eliminate the old flickering lights as the coach is rolling down the track. 

I'll second this! When the Atlas "Conduct-a-Lube" became too expensive, since I use it for other electrical connections around the house, I went with the Bachman product. Both work great.

E-Z Lube Conductive oil really does make a difference. Flush out any previous oil from the pick-up rollers with drops of rubbing alcohol, and let dry, before using it. It will totally eliminate flickering. If you do still have flickering after using it, your tracks and wheels need cleaned or the bulb is loose in the socket.

Never had an issue with oiling rollers and its part of my maintenance routine.

Bachman EZ lube on Amazon...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...p;smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I always get helped from Jonny at good old Eastside Trains when I'm visiting family. Like you I'm getting my first MTH engine from them whenever that decides to come in. Hope you like your engine.

I oil contact rollers with a product that was intended for locks.  It's called Lock-Ease.  It's a light oil with graphite in it.  I only use it on the contact rollers.  Flickering lights on rolling stock drives me nuts.  I've never tried the Atlas or Bachman products but I can tell you the Lock-Ease stops the flickering lights.  Someone once told me I shouldn't use Lock-Ease because it would gum up the rollers.  I've been using it for a bunch of years now with no issues.  Regardless of what lube you use, applying it sparingly is key.

Tony

Below is a picture from the Postwar Lionel service manual.

Quote: "Locomotive rollers which turn on fixed axles should not be lubricated at all".

Cleaning the gunk out of the center of the rollers and cleaning the axle was commonly required when servicing a locomotive that was brought to me for repair.

Do as you wish.

GRJ, I guess you use 5W20 because of those cold PA winters?

I notice the amazon ad for the Bachman oil says not for sale on Catalina Island.  Wonder why such a geographically small limitation.

Hate to say it, but I have never lubricated center rollers and never wore any out.

Whatever works for you is fine with me.  Oiling the rollers works for me, so I do it.

Unless I missed a post, where are the supporters of Whal Clipper Oil? I began using it on contact rollers a few years ago due to positive advice on this forum. I apply the smallest possible drop to the roller axle with a sewing needle.

Thanks everyone for replying.  I updated the post with a picture of the rollers, that show the metal over the rubber roller. I don't recall ever seeing a roller like this.   I also added the full instruction manual, which has an impressive amount of detail, including how to lube the worm gears.   

Always used Atlas Conduct-a-lube --- works great 

May give Bachman EZ lube a shot next time

Brewman, there is no way electricity can travel through rubber. There may be 3 pieces involved here and not 2. Rubber, steel, rubber. Unless it's not rubber at all. It may be a material made to be conductive or rubber seals to help hold the oil inside the roller.

A lot of recent MTH locomotives have those rollers, not sure what the purpose it.  I'm guessing the insulator on the edge is to keep the roller from dropping off the center rail but not contact switch outside rails when going through switches.  However, I find that they frequently aren't as reliable as the ones without the insulation on the outside edges. 

Like Dave says, clearly the insulator isn't around the whole axle.  I took one out of my parts box and looked at it.  If you look at the side of the roller, you can see the insulation is only a surface treatment, the metal roller is under the insulator on the axle.

I just ordered a bottle of EZ Lube to give it a try on rollers but will continue using Labelle 106 & 107 for gears and bushings like I been doing since the 1970's.

I will also endorse the EZ lube.  Great stuff, and one bottle lasts a long time.  However, I don't like the spout on the EZlube bottle and have transferred the lube to a bottle with a metal spout, which is very precision.

Waddy posted:

I will also endorse the EZ lube.  Great stuff, and one bottle lasts a long time.  However, I don't like the spout on the EZlube bottle and have transferred the lube to a bottle with a metal spout, which is very precision.

I'm sure if enough people complain to Bachmann they will bring the old tip back.

I think the manufacturers do that deliberately, they want you to use more of the product so you have to buy more.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the manufacturers do that deliberately, they want you to use more of the product so you have to buy more.

Maybe so, I saved a couple of Labelle Bottles so maybe the caps are the same size, if not I can get bottles in ebay or in a craft shop like Michaels.

bigdodgetrain posted:

I use contact cleaner, which also services as a conductor

One common misconception is that contact cleaner is conductive.  It is not - one of its properties is that it is a dielectric (i.e., non-conductive) when dry.  If it were conductive after drying, it would create shorts between all of the components it is sprayed on.  It does improve conductivity between components by dissolving dirt and oxides & then flushing them away - but in-and-of-itself it is non-conductive.

The old style bottles of E-Z lube are still available on ebay. My self, I actually like the new stem, because I can see the oil approaching the tip and control my squeeze accordingly.

A tiny drop on each side of the roller. I don't know how much actually spreads but I've had no issues.

Dave Zucal posted:

The old style bottles of E-Z lube are still available on ebay. My self, I actually like the new stem, because I can see the oil approaching the tip and control my squeeze accordingly.

The seller may be still using a old photo, I remember buying Labelle 106 with a photo showing Teflon on the tube and received the newer tube with PTFE on it which is the same thing anyway. 

I think I will try the EZ Lube as well. I am not having any problems, but it definitely sounds like it's worth a try to prevent any in the future. Everything on my layout is about due for a lube job so it's a good time to try it.

A drop of any good light oil will do - sewing machine oil for example, or Whal's clipper oil, just enough to keep the pin for the roller oiled.

3 in 1 gunks up pretty well if left idle for years. I think modern oil formulas are much more stable.

..not likely with you folks, regular running and oiling should help tons.

   I oil some rollers, but not all. As soon as I see black dust form near the pin, I clean and oil it. Some have gone decades with no oil, others needed oil after just days. 

  Oil never degraded operations a noticable amount for me, but I have needed to clean off 50 year old 3in1 gunk dried onto old axles and bearings.

  Still beats no oil if it is needed.

I've seen guns "oiled" with 3-in-1 oil and WD-40, both turn into a gummy mess after a few years!  The WD-40 is really bad, I had one that I had to soak in solvent for several days to loosen stuff up enough to disassemble it and clean out the goo.

I've never seen motor oil turn into goo, it'll probably outlast me.

Motor oil won't gum up because it contains detergents to clean carbon residue and other additives to keep dirt molecules suspended in the oil. The dirt can then be carried  to the filter and caught there instead of settling to the bottom of your oil tank. I've been told that the weight (thickness) is actually how much weight it would take to compress the oil between two pieces of glass to make them touch together when it is cold and then when it is hot. Additives are also added that will cause the oil to thicken as it heats up. Now this info came from an oil salesman that use to visit my sawmill, so I don't know how much of that to believe.

I noticed a flickering in most of my passenger cars, picked one up for inspection and one of the pick up rollers was not moving and was grooved and both  had some black build up that had to be removed with a knife.Checked all of my other cars and most had the black crap on the rollers .Removed black stuff used Dremel wire brush to clean rollers oiled same flickering now at minimum.I service my Engines once a year, I guess my passenger cars need it also once a year

Yep, power rollers do need periodic service, and as noted, the type of oil you use does have a bearing.

Dave Zucal posted:

Interesting video on oiling pick-up rollers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...0UgRc2vM_ne5B5cvX45g

IMO, he's using WAY too much oil, three drops on a roller is truly excessive!

I use a 0W20 synthetic motor oil to lube mine.  I figured that it would be light weight enough.  I also lube the side gears and their pivot points on the trucks.  I was told to do this by an Eastside Trains service technician that retired several years ago.

Larry

Use an oil designed for the application I.E. a conductive oil. 

After getting a nasty burn from picking up a Williams loco and touching a hot roller, I always lube rollers.  The postwar Lionel instructions to not oil rollers are not appropriate for modern trains where cheaper metals are used in the roller.  The small diameter of the roller means the rotation is faster than the wheels and friction happens.  I use my normal oil - sewing machine oil - in a hypodermic needle applicator to put a minimal drop in the roller axle.  Works well for locomotives and lighted cars.

David Farquhar describes why a minimal amount of oil improves conductivity here.  Corrosion is the enemy of conductivity.  Conductive oil or grease has an additive (graphite, or a metal compound) that improves conduction, but I haven't seen a need to use a specialty oil yet.

Jeff Noll posted:

Use an oil designed for the application I.E. a conductive oil. 

What brand do you recommend??

I use BACHMANN E-Z Lube, Conductive Contact Lube, No. 99081.  I think most conductive oils on the market are pretty much the same.  I bought this because my local train store sold it. 

I would never use a synthetic oil!!  A quart of Mobil 1 is $ 6.50, and Walmart's "Super Tech" conventional oil is only $ 2.70.  That would cost you an extra $ 3.80 to lube your trains for the next 300 years!!

Mike, no one ever said running model trains was inexpensive.  I think Backmann's conductive oil is ~$6.00 an ounce.  Fortunately I still have a half ounce left!

Mike Wyatt posted:

I would never use a synthetic oil!!  A quart of Mobil 1 is $ 6.50, and Walmart's "Super Tech" conventional oil is only $ 2.70.  That would cost you an extra $ 3.80 to lube your trains for the next 300 years!!

Are you sure?  Mobil 1 is a synthetic oil!

I've been using Labelle 107 for all my oil needs (wheels, contact rollers, etc.). I've had the same bottle for 8 years and it's maybe half empty. I maintain 8 locomotives so it's not anywhere near the "fleets" some of you have, so that could explain why it has lasted me so long. 

Lou1985 posted:

that could explain why it has lasted me so long. 

Nope, you're just not oiling them often enough!

This is my lifetime supply, I'm about 1/4 of the way through it.

Mike Wyatt posted:

I would never use a synthetic oil!!  A quart of Mobil 1 is $ 6.50, and Walmart's "Super Tech" conventional oil is only $ 2.70.  That would cost you an extra $ 3.80 to lube your trains for the next 300 years!!

Labelle’s 107 oil is $9+ for half an ounce, which equates to $576 for a quart.  $6.50 for a quart Mobil 1 is pretty doggone cheap for enough lube oil for a lifetime.

Larry

Well, as to the "conductive oil" claims, I believe it is "conductive-contact" oil  not conductive oil. Unless i am doing something wrong, my meter does not show the Bachmann conductive contact oil as being conductive. In all seriousness  I have learned a lot on the forum and am curious why people imply this, so I tested it myself  but would like to know more about "conductive oil" and if it is good, bad, necessary etc.  I guess I would be hard pressed to switch to an actual conductive oil however since I have not had a need for it, and therefore even if there is such a thing I would be concerned about unintended consequences.

Maybe not the best or well known, but I've been using graphite oil normally used for motorcycle cables  I think it was called something like dri-slide.  The bottle's label has since worn off, had it for years. It includes a 4 inch metal extension to get into the hard to reach areas. 

I've used it for everything, rollers, axels, motor bushings etc. 

Only problem is if you spill it, the black/grey is somewhat of a mess, lol.

The mess is why I tend to avoid graphite unless I have a specific application like locks.  However, it probably works well for rollers, it is certainly conductive.

@C W Burfle posted:

Below is a picture from the Postwar Lionel service manual.

Quote: "Locomotive rollers which turn on fixed axles should not be lubricated at all".

Cleaning the gunk out of the center of the rollers and cleaning the axle was commonly required when servicing a locomotive that was brought to me for repair.

Do as you wish.

Just came across this reply and don't understand what the " L "  lubricant is if the " O " is for oil 🤔

If I remember the post war repair guide I had,L was grease.

I use CRC "2-26" for a conductive lubricant.

Lasts a lifetime.  There are dozens of different types of precision oiler empty bottles on Amazon to fill yourself.  I have one with 2-26 and another with 5w20 and another with smoke fluid.

John

Personally, I think the old PW instructions were incorrect!  The little roller rotates much faster than the wheels, and running it completely dry will result in quickly wearing the hole in the roller and the shaft causing the roller to wobble and create a really poor connection.  I've oiled rollers for a very long time, I'll I'll keep oiling them until I drop.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Personally, I think the old PW instructions were incorrect!  The little roller rotates much faster than the wheels, and running it completely dry will result in quickly wearing the hole in the roller and the shaft causing the roller to wobble and create a really poor connection.  I've oiled rollers for a very long time, I'll I'll keep oiling them until I drop.

Yep John! Just picture a guy towing his small boat on the interstate and the very high rpms the small trailer tires are subject to versus the tow vehicle tires. Like the pick-up rollers, those trailer wheel bearings really get abused!

This:

or this:

I've found this virtually eliminates passenger light flicker as well.....as long as my track is clean of course

I guess I'm the only one who has never oiled any pickup rollers.

@Dennis Rempel posted:

I guess I'm the only one who has never oiled any pickup rollers.

Whatever blows your hair back.

After all of this ,I'm almost inclined to use Amsoil Sythetic transmission fluid .

@Dallas Joseph posted:

After all of this ,I'm almost inclined to use Amsoil Sythetic transmission fluid .

See my previous post.

From one of many MTH Premier locomotive User Guides...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Whatever blows your hair back.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

See my previous post.

From one of many MTH Premier locomotive User Guides...

I am trying to figure out where my hair did fly back to John. 🤤

Yep, I'm still looking for what happened to all my hair as well.

Oh geez.   I'm sorry I read this thread. Now I got somethin else I gotta lube!

@Jeff Noll posted:

I use Bachmann's E-Z Lube Conductive Contact Lube.  It works great and will really eliminate the old flickering lights as the coach is rolling down the track.

I tried this, but after a relatively short time the plastic bottle just cracked and the oil leaked out. So, I went back to Labelle light oil .
Alan

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Personally, I think the old PW instructions were incorrect!  The little roller rotates much faster than the wheels, and running it completely dry will result in quickly wearing the hole in the roller and the shaft causing the roller to wobble and create a really poor connection.  I've oiled rollers for a very long time, I'll I'll keep oiling them until I drop.

Maybe this is why so many Postwar engines spark and arc so often.
Alan

Could be a factor.   I see a lot of PW engines with worn out rollers as well.  If the rolling resistance is greater, they're going to skid along the rails and wear out instead of roll.

@ajzend posted:

I tried this, but after a relatively short time the plastic bottle just cracked and the oil leaked out. So, I went back to Labelle light oil .
Alan

Wow!  Sorry to hear that.  I've never had that problem.
I got to say a super tiny drop of this goes a long way.  Put it on one end of an axle & it migrates all the way through to the other end.  I also use a toothpick or a metal point to direct the oil exactly where I want it.
That little bottle lasts a looooong time.  A long time ago I bought two.  The second one is still unopened and I have 40 locomotives & several hundred pieces of rolling stock including passenger cars.
Here is one thing I did discover. The oil lasts a long time on newer equipment, but things like post-war need a slightly heavier oil.  It worked great for a few weeks then those items seemed to not roll as well when first oiled.   My thought is it might be because of the loose tolerances at the axle/roller points requiring heavier oil on that older equipment.
Dennis