MTH Operating Signals

SJC the signals are easy to hook up but your color signals to change colors u would have to have a lionel 153IR controller and your crossing signals u can hook them straight up to ac power but will work all the time. The controllers has manual with them it explains real well how to hook up.

If you insulate one of the outside rails, the trains' wheelsets can be used to activate the grade crossings. Hook the accessory hot to one lead of the signals and the insulated rail to the other lead. When the train passes into the insulated section, the wheels will complete the connection to common and flash the grade crossing signals.

For block signals, the insulated rail is used to trip a DPDT relay (I like DPDT's because you have an extra set of contacts if you need them for little difference in cost from the SPDT.) I like using 12-volt DC relays and bridge rectifiers because they're easier to find and less expensive than AC relays. To use this setup you connect as follows:

• 10 volts AC accessory to one of the AC leads on the bridge (~)
• Insulated rail connected to the other AC lead on the bridge.
• DC leads from the bridge go to the relay coil
• 10 volts AC accessory to the relay "common" connection.
• Normally Closed relay contact (NC) to the green wire.
• Normally Open relay contact (NO) to the red wire.
• Common connected to the black wire from the block signal.

Your insulated rail section should extend for the entire length of the block. As the train enters the block, the relay will trip and the signal will shift from green to red. When the last car in the train leaves the block, the signal will change from red to yellow for a few seconds, then back to green. In this video clip, you'll see the signals change as the MOW train on the left enters and freight on the right clears their respective blocks. BTW, the two-head signals are actually two separate signals in one package used to indicate whether a diverging route is being taken. That signal governs a diverging route and normally indicates green-over-red for the normal route and red-over-green if the diverging route is to be taken (another benefit of using insulated blocks and relays with tortoise switch machines.) The block signal on the left has since been replaced with an MTH two-head signal since a diverging/crossover route has been added to that line.

Thanks Chessie. I'm just thinking of buying a handful of the CPL signals, dwarf signals, etc such as you find in the MTH RTR catalog. If I understand correctly, just hooking them up to track power gets them to light up but more in depth wiring makes them change colors and such? Crossing signals also will be in the future but I'd like to just get something going with little cost and little electrical work. 

SJC Matt is right u can do that as well i forgot about that.

Personally I prefer Z-Stuff signals to MTH, they have the infrared sensors built in so you just hook them to power and put them next to the track. I think they look better too.

http://www.z-stuff.net/index.html

most if not  all of the MTH trackside signals use the insulated rail method to trigger the timing/ action. the 3 aspect CPL i use works that way. when first powered, the yellow turns on, then the green after a few seconds. when the train hits the insulated rail and turns on the relay, the red comes on, green off until the last car passes the rail. then the yellow on for the few seconds, then green.

like Matt, i prefer relays-- they are cheaper than the MTH or Lionel ITADS, and more reliable.

For my track side signals, (both Lionel and MTH versions), I like to use the old tried and true insulated rail method. I've used IR devices in the past and even the old pressure contacts, but the insulated track pieces are simple, cheap and easy. Best of all they fit in well on my toy train layout as I still use tinplate track.

I'm in the process of re-blocking the club layout as we lost a large group of signals when the wiring took some damage. One of the things I started with was assessing how I could set up a "universal" relay wiring scheme that would work with MTH or Z-stuff signals since they work in different ways. I came up with this one:

The big difference here is that the red/green signal wires are switched to common instead of hot and the black wire feeds off a constant hot instead of common. This allows for the swapping of a Z-stuff block signal in place of an MTH without needing to re-do the activation logic. The 14VAC accessory feed can be used in place of the 12VAC feed to power the signals themselves, but the relays should either feed from a 12VDC source or a 10VAC source run through a full-wave bridge rectifier -- DO NOT USE 14VAC with a rectifier or you'll eventually fry the relay coils.

This was created to feed a double-headed MTH signal (which is actually two separate signals in one structure) but can be used with a Z-Stuff following the notes on the initial design below (relays not shown.)

I'm currently working on something to handle full three-aspect signals, but that literally requires creating two signal busses for the layout (one for each direction) with terminal blocks located at the ends of the track blocks. Real fun.

I appreciate the tips, schematics, and ideas. If I understand the Z-Stuff correctly, all I have to do is take it out of the box and put it next to the track and everything for it to work and change colors is built in? If so, that is the way to go IMO. 

If I go the MTH route, if I just put the signle to track power and cut a couple "notches" in the outside rail with a dremel, I'll be in business? 

Thanks for the help...this is a new one for me!

Doing some planning as well as crusing the Z stuff website with their online instructions, a few things come to mind. 

1) I'm thinking about using some small HO transformers/power pack (Bachmann) to power these to avoid a big mess of wiring. I assume it would be ok based on Z's 12-14 volt recommendation

2) I understand the red/hot and black/common when it comes to wiring to the HO transformer. What I'm a bit lost on is the white "activation" wire. Where does it go and what is its function? From reading, I got the impression that it is for more complex systems only but something tells me I'm off. Can someone explain the activation wire? Does it go to the track? 

Thanks! 

SJC the white wire is your power wire and some is black and the ho not good power to much volts i have an ho one it puts out 19 volts i was using it on some of my signals i quit using it found out putting out 19 volts

SJC i misread your post that white activation wire i wouldn't have a clue on that one something new to me

The White wire is the output lead and there is also a Yellow input wire and are used for several different control options. There should be wiring details on the Z-Stuff site.

For the basic operation you only need to connect the Red & Black leads to 12-18 AC or DC power. 

May be old info but if you check ericstrains.com, Eric Siegel has a great two part tutorial on setting up signals.  He uses Atlas but the principles translate for the use of insulated rails and they are very educational, at least for me.  Hope they help.  They are listed under "Video" tab.

Ron

SJC, I used MTH Crossing Gates (2 pair) and an MTH operating Semaphore (scale size) on my small Halloween layout, and like them very much, both in appearance and performance. I used the insulated rail method, and a Z-Stuff for trains DZ-1008 relay. I like the insulated rail method, because you can place your activation boundaries exactly where you want them. I haven't used the Z-Stuff for trains infra-red detection system, but my understanding of it, is that if your trains are shorter than your block, and not in front of an IR detector, you may get a false signal reading, that may or may not be important to you. With insulated rail detection, if a car or locomotive is any where in the block, it will be detected.

 Dave Hikel at    www.hikeltrains.com   is very helpful, and has some very easy to understand wiring diagrams for some of the signals and crossings.  Some of the wiring hook ups seem counter-intuitive, connecting Red wires to Black for example, and hard as it was to accept, I followed the diagrams and everything worked properly.

Doug

Not quite.  I had to use a bridge rectifier and a relay to be able to shut off the green light and change it to red when the train passed over it.  Unfortunately, that was quite some time ago and I forgot exactly what the wiring was for it.

So if I understand correctly, the white activation wire is for more complex control and not exactly nessecary for basic operation, which is what I want. 

If I go Z Stuff, all I need to do is put hot to hot and common to common and plant it next to the track and away we go? 

Yes,   with the Z-stuff signals you just hook up the hot and common and put it next to the track.  They come with the infrared indicators to change the signals.  I use them on my layout.   However, they have additional wires allowing you to hook them up to other signals.  It is not required, but nice to have.  I use Z-stuff signals on my layout and use the extra wires to hook connect the signals to each other. 

You can read about the setup with the following link from z-stuff;

http://www.z-stuff.net/instruc...-60-80%206-19-07.pdf

As Chris said, the Z-stuff offerings require only two wires and trackside placement to provide multi-color light changes as trains pass. Very easy and, in my opinion, worth the additional purchase cost.

The MTH signals that are just "on-off" (eg. crossing flashers) require only an insulated rail to provide the "on-off" power to the signal signal.

However, the block signals require the addition of a relay added to the insulated rail to provide the correct "green/red" indications. 

I've used both and would spring for the Z-stuff every time if I had the choice.

Mike

Chris/Graz - THanks! That answers my question. If all I need to do is hook up hot and common and plant it on the layout and the signal does the rest, that is the way to go. Like Graz, I agree it is well worth the cost. I'm going to order a signal or two as a "test" and see how it goes and go from there. 

Thanks! Chris - sorry for not seeing you and the boys at B&O this year! 

Just ordered a CPL and Semaphore! We'll see how it goes. If it goes well, I can see getting kinda addicted to these! 

I placed an order early last week for signals online from Z Stuff Express. I selected standard shipping, and have yet to receive them now late in the week. Is this typical for Z Stuff or am I getting a bit excited over nothing? Called Z Stuff's number from the receipt that was emailed to me but got a machine. Thanks! 

Hi everyone,

I would like to install some MTH block signals using an insulated rail to activate a relay that shuts off the green light and activates the red when a train is in the block.  I know I need a SPDT Relay and a bridge rectifier to accomplish this.  Someone also told me I need a capacitor across the rectifier to eliminate any chatter that will be caused when the coil is activated in the DC relay.  My question is, what relay, rectifier and capacitor should I use?  I would like to buy the components but I am new to this and have no knowledge of capacitor types and rectifier ratings etc....  Can anyone give me an exact component configuration that will work?  Thanks so much in advance for any help you guys can provide!

Mike

Here is a post discussing some inexpensive signals from China.  I have some but have not hooked them up yet.