I currently have 4 MTH PS3 GP40's that I run under DCC. Back when I was in 3-rail I used to run DCS and I have to say that PS3 locomotives under DCC run just as well as they do with DCS. Other than no proto-couplers, DCC activates all of the features that DCS does. I prefer DCC over DCS because there are no annoying "Check Track" or "Engine Not Found" messages.

I have an NCE PH10R which is the wireless command set which includes a 10 amp booster. When I build my layout next year I will get another 10 amp booster and "Brutus" power supply - 2 boosters/2 loops, 1 command station.

Good info, thanks! I knew the prices of the NCE starter systems, but Ouch on the boosters. I'd never looked at those before or considered needing more than one. It was just mentioned on the other thread to take a look at the new ESU remote system, not sure I have seen that one? I have been sold on the NCE system for a few years, just haven't bit the bullet on purchasing one as I already have DCS and Legacy.  

catnap posted:

I currently have 4 MTH PS3 GP40's that I run under DCC. Back when I was in 3-rail I used to run DCS and I have to say that PS3 locomotives under DCC run just as well as they do with DCS. Other than no proto-couplers, DCC activates all of the features that DCS does. I prefer DCC over DCS because there are no annoying "Check Track" or "Engine Not Found" messages.

I have an NCE PH10R which is the wireless command set which includes a 10 amp booster. When I build my layout next year I will get another 10 amp booster and "Brutus" power supply - 2 boosters/2 loops, 1 command station.

That's the same reason I like DCC so much. When I issue a command the locomotive responds. Pretty much every time. The once in a rare while it doesn't respond is because it hit some dirty track. No command system will work with dirty track except the Dead Rail stuff. 

I bought the NCE system about 10 years ago. It was cheaper back then. I later on upgraded the system to radio and then I added the Brute. I only have one Booster. I am glad I waited on the radio option because the original NCE radio equipment was not good. They re-engineered their radio stuff and now it is bulletproof like the rest of the system. 

"You can not run your whole layout from one command set." This is not entirely true. Smaller layouts will only need the one Booster. I used to belong to a club that ran this system. They have a very large layout about 60' by 30' with large mainlines. I am not sure how many boosters they have but I don't think it is more than 3 or 4 but this is a large club layout. I can't picture home layouts needing more than 2 or 3 at the most. This is due to 2 rail or 3RS usually having larger curves and thus more of a scale themed track plan where less is more. In a scale atmosphere you usually do not see a spaghetti bowl track plan where the user tries to fit in as many loops as possible. Nothing wrong with those layouts just stating the difference. However you are correct in stating the Boosters are not cheap. Thank God they are a one time expense. 

OTOH, if someone wanted to build a toy train layout with a lot of smoke and incandescent lighting it could really get expensive with the boosters. 

There's a bigger DCC booster on the market in Germany that's rated at 30 Amp intermittent 25 Amp continuous @ 24V on the rails for...get this...$182 + shipping.

http://www.md-electronics.de/de/mxion_control.html

They also sell it as a set with a Lenz command center and Roco throttle for $299 Euros...

 https://mdelectronics.branchbo...erteiler-6000-1.html

My command station came from NCE set at 16.5 volts. Apparently, the NMRA recommends about 16 volts for running O scale on DCC. There is a potentiometer inside that can be adjusted to increase voltage up to 18 volts if necessary. I don't have any lighted cars except for the occasional caboose so 16.5 volts is optimal for my 10' X 30' temporary layout.

I'm going to have 2 loops inside my garage. It's going to be 14' X 19' so I'll add a 2nd booster for the other track. One booster/power supply per loop will provide more than enough power.

30 amps and 24 volts sounds like overkill. I guess if I was pulling heavy trains with lots of lighted cars that may be a consideration.

I have a 4' by 16' layout. I'd use the PH-10R. I have legacy already installed on my layout (Have DCS too but would get rid of it in favor of DCC). I'm using an MRC Pure power transformer. What do I need to buy? A booster? 

Catnap, like you said it will be more than enough power. If you only have two loops and no incandescent lights one booster will be fine. You can also break a layout into districts by adding circuit breakers off of one booster. In other words you could put a circuit breaker for each of your loops with power coming from the same booster. This way if there is a short or derailment on one loop the other loop will not shut down. Just a suggestion. 

Trainlover9943 posted:

I have a 4' by 16' layout. I'd use the PH-10R. I have legacy already installed on my layout (Have DCS too but would get rid of it in favor of DCC). I'm using an MRC Pure power transformer. What do I need to buy? A booster? 

If you purchase the PH-10R it comes with one booster. That system alone might be enough for your entire layout. It depends on how many locomotives you run at the same time and how many incandescent lights you have running off of track power. As long as you have some sort of power supply like a Z4000 you will have everything you need to run the DCC system.  If the PH-10R doesn’t provide enough power you will need a second booster and another power supply. 

One last thing. I also set my DCC system for 16V. I used to use a Postwar ZW set at 16VAC but when I got a deal on the Brute I started using that. I personally would not go higher than 18VAC. 

Hudson J1e posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

I have a 4' by 16' layout. I'd use the PH-10R. I have legacy already installed on my layout (Have DCS too but would get rid of it in favor of DCC). I'm using an MRC Pure power transformer. What do I need to buy? A booster? 

If you purchase the PH-10R it comes with one booster. That system alone might be enough for your entire layout. It depends on how many locomotives you run at the same time and how many incandescent lights you have running off of track power. As long as you have some sort of power supply like a Z4000 you will have everything you need to run the DCC system.  If the PH-10R doesn’t provide enough power you will need a second booster and another power supply. 

Cool. I'd guess that my MRC should be fine. I've converted all my passenger cars to LEDs. I take it too many smoke units could be a problem due to them taking up amps? 

catnap posted:

Other than no proto-couplers, DCC activates all of the features that DCS does.

It was my understanding that the couplers would open with DCC command, is this not the case?

As for setting the voltage of the NEC booster, I did set mine to 18V so that there wouldn't be any issues as I will still use Legacy to control power to the sidings and throwing turnouts.

And about how many boosters you'd need, like I said in the top post, if you are replacing DCS you'd want one for every channel you use on the TIU.  And for Legacy one booster for every power supply (PH-180/135) you have or handle on a ZW.  My layout is planned to use 3 handles of my ZW, so that's 3 boosters.  This is one of the reasons I'm going with NEC as they have 10 amp boosters, and 10 amps is what the ZW does per handle, and I believe the TIU does per channel, so I didn't need to do any more figuring.

And as for command sets, yes, you only need one, but big layouts will need more boosters.  Boosters are not command sets, they only relay the command signal from the command base.

If I ever make it to the DCC world I was planning to use PH-180s that I already have. Specs are similar to the power supply sold by NCE, except for the voltage adjustments on NCE's. I understand I still need boosters to go with them.

I've been running DCC on a large (as in, the entire first floor of my house) layout for about five years now, so I can clarify a few things here.

For starters, the wireless 10 amp NCE system is available for $600 from places like Tony's Trains. The set includes everything you need except the power supply. I recommend this one, for $90, from mouser. It is small, fanless, and plenty powerful. So $700 to get going with a fully functional wireless 10 amp system.

You do not necessarily need multiple boosters. I run my entire layout with a single booster, and that's with plenty of engines running, pulling 20-30 car trains, powering all accessories, lights, etc. off the booster. I am typically running about 5 amps DCC output during a normal operating session. Multiple boosters are handy if you want to subdivide your layout (for example mainline vs, yard), so that a derailment in one section doesn't bring down another section, or for very large layouts. But the starter 10 amp booster will be more than adequate for most.

The NCE remote is very nicely laid out and easy to use. All the standard MTH PS3 functions - smoke, couplers, lights, all the sounds, etc. can be controlled via DCC. It's all quite well documented in the MTH manuals. Programming and setup is somewhat easier if you use JMRI along with the NCE, but it is not necessary.

The NCE system integrates nicely with JMRI for control and automation as well, so you have all the options imaginable as far as using tablets, smartphones, and touchscreen laptops for controlling the layout, automating routes, and other whiz-bang. I have JMRI set up with a full graphical representation of my layout that is controllable wirelessly via laptop and ipad. It's a lot of fun using the ipad in conjunction with the remote for heavy duty yard operations, etc. I think I have some posts somewhere about my JMRI setup.

Related rant: Smartphone/app/whatever control is simply not an option IMO as the primary control input for a system where real world hardware can be damaged if you lose control. I don't want to by typing in a passcode, waiting for my phone to update, closing out whatever popup is up at the moment, etc. while a train is running off the track. There's a reason nobody operates industrial machinery like cranes with a smartphone...

sinclair posted:

It was my understanding that the couplers would open with DCC command, is this not the case?

I operate MTH scale wheel locomotives so they don't come with electric coil couplers. The coupler sounds will play when the appropriate key is pushed. I suppose hi-rail locomotives operating on DCC will have functional protocouplers.

catnap posted:

sinclair posted:

It was my understanding that the couplers would open with DCC command, is this not the case?

I operate MTH scale wheel locomotives so they don't come with electric coil couplers. The coupler sounds will play when the appropriate key is pushed. I suppose hi-rail locomotives operating on DCC will have functional protocouplers.

Ah, that makes sense as I had just checked a manual and it said opening couplers.  I've never looked at the manual of a scale wheel locomotive, so I didn't realize they didn't come with proto-couplers.  That's good to know information.

Let me amplify THOR73's sound advice - I've been operating a large (2200 feet of track, 124 turnouts) O scale 2 rail layout for 13 years driven by a single NCE command station and 7 wireless ProCabs.  Initially I powered the  entire layout with one 10 amp booster.  As operations intensified I  later subdivided the railroad into 2 power districts, and still later 4 power districts - each with its own 10 amp booster.  In the coming year I'll I further subdivided one of those power districts into 2 sub-power districts each with its own breaker to isolate operations in the yard and engine terminal from that of the adjacent main line.  

I recommend starting with one 10 amp booster and installing additional ones if the combined power draw you experience in actual operations gets close to the capacity of the system.  No harm will come to the NCE system if the draw exceeds the boosters 10 amp capacity - it is designed to safely shut down before damage is done.  I use DCC Specialties RRampmeters on the output of each booster to observe actual current drawn during operating sessions.  These digital meters are designed to accurately measure the pulse width modulated DCC wave form (analog AC meters designed for sign waves provide less accurate readings).  Each power districts is further protected by DCC Specialties PSX PowerShield fast acting digital circuit breakers.  They self reset when the short is cleared (such as a when an operator forgets to align a powered frog turnout).

  There are at least 3 reasons to subdivide the railroad into multiple power districts -

A - real world peak current draw exceeding 10 amps necessitating additional boosters to divide the load.

B- power district track bus wire runs exceeding 75'  from the booster.  With careful location of the booster(s) relative to track arrangement  one can often mitigate bus length.  In a simplistic example if you have a 150' point to point run locate the booster in the middle of the route.  In the case of very large layouts with multiple boosters they are typically spread around the layout.  Note that multiple track busses can fan out from the booster.  I must confess that my bus runs were initially far longer than the recommended 75' length - I had no operational issues other than perhaps a slight slow down at the most distant point from the booster due to voltage drop.  

C- Minimize interruptions due to derailments/shorts when running multiple trains on separate parts of the railroad.   ( eg a derailment in the yard impacting trains running on the main or branch line.  If current draw (factor A) doesn't require an additional booster, you can mitigate issue C by splitting the output of a booster into one or more sub-power districts each with its own digital circuit breaker.  

Allow me to further endorse the NCE DCC components.  They were designed to handle our O scale environment - perhaps in part due to the owner being an O scaler!  I've found that the components stand up well to use - (my command station and first throttle are over 20 years old.   Over that time NCE has upgraded my components (like the wireless throttle)  with new functionality/features as they became available. One relatively new product is their 2 amp self contained PowerCab.  It is a complete DCC system in one hand held package that includes the functionality of a throttle, command station, and a 2 amp booster.  Standing alone it can run a modest single locomotive operation.  I initially use mine to program/test  locomotives on the workbench away from the railroad.  I later sent it to NCE for a $90 radio upgrade.  When not being used on the workbench test track, during operating sessions one the railroad we use it in wireless mode alongside the other NCE cabs - same form/fit/& function. 

- 

Agree with all of Ed's comments above, particularly concerning the robustness and upgradeability of the NCE hardware. It definitely has an industrial strength feel and performance to it.

Expanding on the DCC breaker option a bit (which completely slipped my mind in my earlier post) this is a great way to create multiple power districts powered by a single booster. Better and much cheaper, really, if you're not actually limited by the booster power.

I use the same breakers Ed mentioned, the DCC Specialties Powershield PSX1 breaker. I get mine from Tonys Trains for about $40, so they're pretty economical. It has a configurable trip voltage, so you can tailor it to the specific needs of the power district it's driving. The trip and reset behavior in my experience is quite a bit gentler to engines than the booster reset. It is addressable as a standard DCC accessory decoder, so you have remote on/off control of every power district from your cab. I found this to be a surprisingly useful feature when I first started using them, making it really easy to power on blocks of accessories, turn off idle passenger cars in a siding, and so on.

The reset behavior is configurable as well. The auto reset as Ed describes is one option, and in fact has an adjustable retry delay as I recall. Another option, which is what I use, is a manual reset. This allows me to go find and fix whatever happened, without the breaker (or booster, if you don't use a breaker) continually trying to power up and tripping again. Then once I unpile the cars    I can turn the power back on manually with a command from the remote.

That 2amp self contained PowerCab is what my brother got for N gauge and what sold me on NCE.  My layout is small enough that I could probably get away with one booster, but since I have it set up for 3 handles on my ZW I wanted to use three boosters for simplicity in wiring.  Plus I could run a total of 6 locomotives at once if I set it up right, and that would be pushing the booster at the edge.  So with how I have it planned, it should only see a max of 3 engines per booster with a rare 4th.

May 2023 Update (4 years later): This April 2023 video https://youtu.be/pdaZyY0dnF0   shows 3 MTH trains on the same mainline, no blocks, 1 detector.

1. FYI: Experimenting With NCE Power Cab & Proto 3 Alco

• I have been experimenting (blundering?) with running the MTH Premier Proto 3 Alco S2 shown in the 1st photo, using the NCE "Power Cab".
• This seems to work. The loco pulling 7 cars, draws around 1.25 amps.
• The Power-Cab is fixed at 13 volts, and with the "as delivered" 1.35 amp power supply will provide up to about 1.35 amp.
• .     (According to the NCE 'ZenDesk', it is rated for a continuous maximum of 2 amps, and a short term peak of 3 amps.)
• ~~~
• This Power Cab would probably be considered very "BORDERLINE" -- due to it's limited amperage and lower voltage.
• But for a small engine like this S2, and a not-too-long train, and running not-too-fast -- it might work (such as for around a Christmas tree).

Voltage Drops

• When actually pulling the train, that 13 volts seems to drop down to around 12 or 11 volts.
• When the voltage drops below 11 volts, then the loco seems to start "jerking".
• .     ((If I use my larger 5 amp NCE "Power Pro" system set at its maximum of 16 volts, I don't observe the "jerking" problem.))
• .      ((FYI: Using my 5 amp NCE "Power Pro" system, and holding my hand in front of the loco to "stall" it -- my DCC "RRampMeter" says the loco is pulling over 3 amps.))
• ~~
• Due to its current and voltage limitations, I can NOT recommend spending the $160-$180 to buy a new PowerCab.

• But if you already have one, or can borrow one from a friend, it is something you could experiment with.

(text CONTINUES below 1st photo)

O27 Problems: This S2 loco does not seem to want to go around O27 curves, as shown in the photo below (I need to learn more about this). The photo above shows it operating on MTH O31 Realtrax. (MTH says it needs O31 minimum curve, even though it's the same 12" length as the SW9s/SW1500s, and the catalog says the SW9s operate on O27.)

2. Notes About The DCS/DCC Switch

(as I understand it)

• As I understand it, ALL MTH Proto 3 locos have decoders capable of running on both DCS or DCC.
• But not all of them come with the DCS/DCC switch on the bottom.

The Switch:

• When Proto 3 came out in approximately 2011, all Railking and all Premier locos had the DCS/DCC switch.
• All Proto 3 Premier locos still have that switch (2011 to present).

However, around 2014, the switch was REMOVED from the Railking locos.

• The decoders in the post-2014 Railking locos that don't have the switch, are still capable of running on DCC, but you have obtain the parts (the switch & 2 screws) and ADD the switch yourself (or have someone talented do it for you).
• MTH has a 2-page PDF instruction sheet showing how to do this.
• Alternately, there is a jumper wire inside the loco that you can just CUT -- and then the loco with run on DCC, but will NOT run on DCS.
• Said another way, apparently that switch "opens" that jumper wire connection to run on DCC, or "closes" that jumper wire connection to run on DCS.

3. I'm Working On A VIDEO of This:

• I'm trying to make a VIDEO -- showing the NCE "Mini-Panel" (shown in below photo) controlling this loco AUTOMATICALLY
• Preliminary testing leads me to believe we can do it.

More FYI, re Previous Videos:

• Under the 'AutoControls.org' video series, I have made a bunch of videos showing automatic control of N/HO/S and Largescale trains, but not yet O gauge.
• FYI #3: There's a "compilation" video  that shows some of setups operating.
• This link https://youtu.be/le6Bsz66ndo?t=410  should take you to the 6:50 minute point in that video, where the DCC part begins (the 1st part of the video is analog).  Note this video is FAST FORWARDED.  (It's a compilation of 18 videos.)