MTH Steamer using DCC on AC Rails

My max stall current is just under 2.8A so I would think a Blunami would easily run the smoke, engine, couplers and LEDs but maybe I'm wrong. Anyways I'll wait for someone to respond.

Well...

You have to decide on a DCC system to send the commands.

Why even consider gutting it if it's OK?

Why did you go inside it now?

@Roddyrex posted:

... so I'm wondering the most cost efficient way of getting more out of this train. I can't afford another train for a while and I want to get more control over the conventional controls. Can the MTH PS3 DCC run will on an AC 3 rail track? Do you need to add a rectifier/regulator for it to run DCC? If so, what's an efficient way to get more out of the PS3 through DCC?

you need a DCC system that can use all the functions of the DCS/DCC decoder inside.

Listen to what I'm saying though.....A DCS/DCC system is like $1000. Unless I go to something like Blunami or the DCS wifi explorer everything else is too expensive to run one train from. Or is there something else out there? Keep in mind, I own 3 Lionel transformers and my layout is all 3-rail Fastrack too.

So you want more than conventional running. The track doesn't matter. I thought you were already considering buying a DCC system.

So you want to run in DCC mode without buying a DCC system?

I got confused with the first posts wording.

"Do you need to add a rectifier/regulator for it to run DCC? If so, what's an efficient way to get more out of the PS3 through DCC?"

What I'm saying is with Blunami you convert the AC voltage inside the train while passing the dc to the Blunami board and use their free app to interface through bluetooth with all the commands built in. For $200 seems pretty good is what I'm saying. I wouldn't need a whole system.

The ps3 board has a bridge rectifier on board so that's why I'm wondering if it could somehow do the same thing since it has the rectifier and dcc decoder already. BUT does it require a whole system just to use it???

there are posts here on the forum about using Blunami. I have never used it.

Hopefully others will chime in for your answers.

The MTH explorer is an entry level system to get people running with their system.

I run MTH's DCS system and have converted other brands to run on my RR. It's tuff for me to help as I've never used the explorer.

I ran DCC in my past, so I know enough to cover the basics.

here's a post that may help.

Smoke unit install with Blunami decoder board | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Well thanks for the link and your input Joe. I have been reading a lot of posts to find all the info I can about these systems but it's definitely hard justifying one twice the price of my Engine to get the sounds and features that are built into it.

@Roddyrex Wow, you weren't kidding about he prices of DCC systems. They have sure gone up since I bought one. However, you can get a NCE 5 amp system at Tony's Train Exchange for $559. Yes, they are expensive but fortunately it is a one time purchase.

Can the MTH PS3 DCC run will on an AC 3 rail track? Yes, the number of rails has nothing to do with the control system you choose although like Joe mentioned you will need a DCC system to send the DCC signal and power down the track (they are one and the same). This is why I like DCC. You can't get the power to the engine without the signal getting there as well. If you only want to control the one engine you can get the NCE Powercab for $179. However, it is my opinion that since you are 3 rail most likely you will be better off with the 3 rail systems. If you had problems with the MTH WiFI unit why not continue on with DCS but get a regular DCS remote for it? (if you can find one) This is just my opinion but I would never rip out a perfectly good DCS/DCC decoder and sound system. I just feel my hobby dollars are better spent somewhere else. I don't know much about the Blunami 4408 except that I have read a lot of good things about it here on the forum.

If I have read your opening post correctly I think you are at a crossroads. You have an important decision to make. Whether you buy a DCC system (option1) or install a Blunami (option 2) you will have a locomotive that has a control system that is different from all other 3 rail locomotives except MTH PS 3.0 locomotives. What if down the road you buy some Lionel with TMCC or Legacy? Your engine will not be compatible with those locomotives meaning it cannot be run in command mode on the same track while the Lionel is in command mode unless it is a Blunami under battery power. If it were me and I were on a tight budget I would go the remote route. I love technology when it works but when it doesn't it can be very very frustrating for me.

Phil, this is exactly the type of input I was looking for! I appreciate it and I do agree with you it would be a shame ripping out a perfectly good PS3 DCS/DCC decoder. That is the crossroads that I'm at exactly because these systems are so expensive especially for a small layout. I can run an 0-27 train on a very small upper track and then my main train on the main level track which has 0-31 curves so again needs to be of the smaller variety train. Looking at the Blunami as an option, I absolutely love the fact I only need to install the board to be up and running with more customization than DCS OR Legacy would have to offer. All for a $200 cost, leaving me with a Blunami board plus a perfectly good PS3 board so my next locomotive purchase could still be almost anything as I could put the electronics back into the original and put Blunami in whatever I purchase as well.

I think I'm leaning more towards DCC over DCS or Legacy just because of it not being so proprietary and more of an open source.

MTH's DCS system concerns me with where the company stands right now and the limited support they offer now. Heck their app is incompatible with my phone and 5 year old tablets at home although they work it's the mere fact they don't update it at all anymore.

I love Lionel but they seem to be all over the map with control systems and are starting to not support a lot of things as well. Then their costs are outrageous!!

So I'm really leaning towards the Blunami option as it will give me what I want right now IF I CAN GET THE SMOKE UNIT PART OF IT FIGURED OUT. Or someone else here can persuade me with something else.

A 5A DCC system in the future is probably what I need but at this point I can't afford it especially with a weak Canadian dollar.

What about using the BlueRail 5A board to my PS3 decoder? This looks like another great option that is a bit cheaper than Blunami as well. Would my smoke unit run correctly in sync perhaps? I have asked them on their support page.

I am confused.  PS-3 is a DCC decoder to.  You do not need to gut it.  Place it in DCC mode via switch or removing jumper.  Get a DCC system.

Wire it to your track.  PS-3 boards can run on AC or DC, since your using DCC that is your power source.  I am no expert on DCC but not sure why you would gut the engine.  G

@GGG posted:

I am confused.  PS-3 is a DCC decoder to.  You do not need to gut it.  Place it in DCC mode via switch or removing jumper.  Get a DCC system.

Wire it to your track.  PS-3 boards can run on AC or DC, since your using DCC that is your power source.  I am no expert on DCC but not sure why you would gut the engine.  G

If you read GGG, I don't have a control system for DCC. That is the issue. I'm looking for the best way to control my train with all the functions it is supposed to have without spending $1000 on a system.

@Roddyrex posted:

If you read GGG, I don't have a control system for DCC. That is the issue. I'm looking for the best way to control my train with all the functions it is supposed to have without spending $1000 on a system.

I'm just trying to scale your expectations here a bit.

Honest moment, why are you going so deep down this rabbit hole?

What features- on an MTH PS3 engine, do you think you are going to use that conventional control does not give you? I'm being dead serious about this- at what point does the minimal features you get using DCC or DCS get you on a starter MTH engine- the jump from conventional to full blown DCS cost you?

In conventional:

• You can fire front and rear couplers- something Lionel cannot do in conventional. Also, you need extra circuitry to be able to do this in Blunami
• You can activate the PFA announcment sequence, and go through all that dialog and sequence.

Let's not kid ourselves- you don't have steaming whistle, and even if you did- the explorer as implemented could not operate that feature. You don't have marker or class lamps on that engine you can turn on or off so again, what magical feature must you have that you don't have control over?

Why, for the love of trains, rip out a working PS3 board setup, rewire the entire locomotive, have to build custom circuits to handle smoke and couplers so you can put Bluenami into it makes any sense?

I'm not saying you don't have right to be frustrated with MTH on the current offerings for control. Lord knows I've ripped into MTH R&D many times about unlocking more features in the Explorer to make it more useful.

I feel like you are fighting 2 really dumb things:

#1 you have this belief that you are missing out and must have "all" features

#2 that drove you to buy the explorer and you had problems, but the part you still don't get, that was NEVER going to be full DCS. in other words you were spending money, only to get barely any benefit.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I'm just trying to scale your expectations here a bit.

Honest moment, why are you going so deep down this rabbit hole?

What features- on an MTH PS3 engine, do you think you are going to use that conventional control does not give you? I'm being dead serious about this- at what point does the minimal features you get using DCC or DCS get you on a starter MTH engine- the jump from conventional to full blown DCS cost you?

In conventional:

• You can fire front and rear couplers- something Lionel cannot do in conventional. Also, you need extra circuitry to be able to do this in Blunami
• You can activate the PFA announcment sequence, and go through all that dialog and sequence.

Let's not kid ourselves- you don't have steaming whistle, and even if you did- the explorer as implemented could not operate that feature. You don't have marker or class lamps on that engine you can turn on or off so again, what magical feature must you have that you don't have control over?

Why, for the love of trains, rip out a working PS3 board setup, rewire the entire locomotive, have to build custom circuits to handle smoke and couplers so you can put Bluenami into it makes any sense?

I'm not saying you don't have right to be frustrated with MTH on the current offerings for control. Lord knows I've ripped into MTH R&D many times about unlocking more features in the Explorer to make it more useful.

I feel like you are fighting 2 really dumb things:

#1 you have this belief that you are missing out and must have "all" features

#2 that drove you to buy the explorer and you had problems, but the part you still don't get, that was NEVER going to be full DCS. in other words you were spending money, only to get barely any benefit.

Barry, I apologize if I somehow insulted you in someway to deserve this harsh response. Trying to use conventional mode to get the extra sounds and functions is extremely tedious and annoying tbh. I'd simply like to have a better way to control the train such as operating at lower speeds, get some extra sounds and maybe switch the sounds to match a different train all together for some fun. We are of a newer generation that like customizing to our own imagination. My son would love playing with all of that stuff. I don't want to rip the ps3 board out if I can use it for the decoder purposes. But I don't see DCS as being a solution and quite frankly running conventionally either bores me or frustrates me.

Ditto.  You want Legacy feature but no Legacy system, you want DCS features but no DCS System, you want DCC feature just no system.

Geez!  I explained the option you have with PS-3.  You can't find a used DCC system at the local hobby shop, HO club or swap meet? G

Ok so show me a system outside of what I just mentioned that won't cost a ridiculous amount of money to run a single train utilizing what it already had built into it but is locked out unless you spend thousands. I was asking if anyone knows of other options that might make sense. There's no need to jump on a guy for exploring different avenues.

I would go with another try at the Explorer first, given your cost constraints.  Requires no modifications to the loco and accesses most of the important functions in command mode.  Under $150.  If you have a local dealer, you can test the loco with the Explorer at the shop, which would reduce the time and anxiety.  If not, you can always sell the Explorer or return it if for some reason it doesn't work or meet your needs.

@Landsteiner posted:

I would go with another try at the Explorer first, given your cost constraints.  Requires no modifications to the loco and accesses most of the important functions in command mode.  Under $150.  If you have a local dealer, you can test the loco with the Explorer at the shop, which would reduce the time and anxiety.  If not, you can always sell the Explorer or return it if for some reason it doesn't work or meet your needs.

Thanks Landsteiner, that was why I originally did choose the explorer as it was going to give me a nicer way of controlling my train without doing any modifications to the train. That's exactly why I'm at this crossroads between trying another one or perhaps trying the Bluerail/Blunami route. I just had a horrible experience with the Explorer because after hours of trying to connect it with my train it died taking a firmware update for a last attempt. I'm a very capable electronic Technologist so the installation stuff doesn't scare me one bit. I'm only wondering if the smoke unit will function. Doesn't have to be perfect by any means.

"Trying to use conventional mode to get the extra sounds and functions is extremely tedious and annoying tbh."

I totally agree. I started out with 3 rail and I also found it very annoying. In my opinion even on small layouts if you have a reliable command control system it makes running the trains a lot more fun.

I am a 2 rail guy but I started out with 3 rail and I had both TMCC and DCS. To be honest there some things I miss about 3 rail but the control systems are not one of them. The Lionel loyalists will tell you Lionel's system is the best. My experiences with both 3 rail systems (the original TMCC and DCS) were horrible and extremely frustrating but on the other hand there are a bunch of guys on this forum that have had good experiences with both 3 rail systems and the smaller/less complicated the layout is the better chance you have that the 3 rail systems will work reliably. Many years ago I had a Lionel engine that had its own remote, it was a Thomas the Tank Engine, and that system was much more reliable for me than the original TMCC. When I say reliable I mean when I send a command to the engine that command is obeyed by the engine without any issues. It is for this reason that I like DCC the best. However, the truth is there are pros and cons to all 3 systems. One of the cons to DCC is, as you know, new systems are expensive. However, an option is you can buy the NCE PowerCab to start off with which comes with NCE's top of the line remote and then all you would have to do is later on add the NCE Command Station and a power supply (which you may already have) and you will have the 5 Amp system. This way you spread the costs over time and it is easier to manage. I know there are a few 3 rail guys that run DCC but not that many. Many 2 rail guys use NCE while still others use Digitrax. I don't have any personal information on Digitrax but I hear good things about it. Another option is what GGG said and see if you can find a used DCC system at a good price. Or look into other manufacturers of DCC systems. I am not up on all the prices since I bought my system years ago. I used to be part of a train club and one of the members there was a NCE dealer so I was able to get my system at cost. Still it was $409 back then and that was 15 years ago. Later on I added a wireless throttle.

I still say you are probably better off for the future with the 3 rail systems. I misunderstood your original post I thought you had a DCS system without a remote but it had WiFi but now I understand it is the DCS Explorer. I admit I don't know much about that system. I have never even used it on someone else's layout. I don't know what DCS systems cost these days but I am sure it is less than a new DCC system. I have a friend who added the MTH WiFi to his DCS system and he had so many problems with it he quickly got rid of it.

It seems to me like you really like the idea of the Blunami and if that's what's going to bring you the most enjoyment out of the hobby I say go for it. I personally would not gut a perfectly good PS 3 locomotive but it is your railroad. What is most important is you have to figure out what control system will work for you the best and what will bring you the most enjoyment out of the hobby. Good luck and keep us posted.

Fantastic post Phil!! That is really good insight. If I could start over I would've gone to a 2 rail DC system for sure but my son was asking for a classic lionel train which me at the time knew little to nothing about model trains. I found out real quick about the incompatibilities all over the industry.  Wasting lots of money on stuff I can't use now and really can't sell either at least not very easily. I live in Canada and I don't know one other person that runs trains, there's no hobby shops open anymore with O Gauge that's for sure so I have to buy everything internationally for it.

This is the reason for the frustration I have towards the industry that these companies aren't happy enough selling trains for thousands of dollars, you have to buy their specific controls, power, etc or get special cables, adapters, integrated units to work with one another. To me it's an atrocious way to run business, and probably a good reason a lot of the newer generations don't go at least O gauge. Sell your trains for $500+ with whatever bells and whistles (PUN) included but make them available. 

I just imagine if I would've asked my parents for a train I adored for $700. That would've been my next 4 years worth of Christmas presents and just to find out I can't use it because I need to spend another $1500 to control it and power it. Sure there's starter sets that are about as good as they were 60 years ago......

Anyway my post is supposed to be about a possible solution to running smoke with Blunami, maybe using BluRails board with the PS3 board, trying the DCS Explorer again or start building towarda a full DCC system. I sorta still leaning towards the Blunami or Bluerails boards, thinking my kids and me will probably love changing up all the sounds on the fly constantly. If I can figure out how to implement the smoke unit so it still functions decently I'd be happy. I wouldn't be waisting the PS3 system because if I do end up getting another loco it will probably be an older one to upgrade in which I could install the Blunami into and PS3 back in this one.

The Bluerails board looks like it should do the exact same thing but I'd be using the MTH ps3 decoder. I'm just wondering how it all would work together. I'm sure it's been done. Being able to communicate with the train directly is so much more appealing to me then going through something else in-between.

If you use BluRails board with the PS3 board you won't get all the different Tsunami sounds that you want your kids to be able to change on the fly. Why not pick up a cheap conventional locomotive and install the Bluenami in that and save yourself a lot of labor? I have done TMCC, DCS, and DCC installs. I don't like doing them and I feel it is a part of the hobby that no one sees. Sort of like wiring but sometimes they have to be done. If I could avoid doing an install I would.

Check into DCC-EX then.  It will run via your phone, and cheaper than full DCC system costs.  Being a MTH Service center this is how I run DCC on MTH equipment when the need arises.  My son runs his HO empire using one too.  This way you can use the phone as you suggest, but not have to gut the MTH electronics.

DCC-EX Model Railroading — DCC-EX Model Railroading documentation

Google for:  youtube how to make a DCC-ex system

Jim

Awesome I'll check that out Jim. Thanks for your post. Phil that's a pretty good take to consider as well. George and soundtraxx did just email me back too. The smoke and fan would be a project for sure that I'm not real keen on. I have lots of things I'd still like to do with my layout as well so maybe Blunami for a future project.

@Jim Sandman posted:

Check into DCC-EX then.  It will run via your phone, and cheaper than full DCC system costs.  Being a MTH Service center this is how I run DCC on MTH equipment when the need arises.  My son runs his HO empire using one too.  This way you can use the phone as you suggest, but not have to gut the MTH electronics.

DCC-EX Model Railroading — DCC-EX Model Railroading documentation

Google for:  youtube how to make a DCC-ex system

Jim

I want to thank you for the suggestion Jim. I love this open source and arduino based is awesome stuff. I'll be indulging myself into this DCC++EX. Really cool stuff.

A full blown DCS system would be better IMHO to run a Proto3 loco, but with DCS availability and what you laid out it seems the Arduino based DCC may get where your wanting to go for lowest cost, but it will require time and effort.  Plus and minuses to each path.

Don't go ripping out the Proto3 electronics though.  That seems a bit drastic and a bit crazy.  The Arduino DCC you will be able to still run in DCS when(if) Wifi TIUs  become available.

Jim

Go to ebay and find yourself a DCS Commander, it does what you want, just no handheld remote. I myself have switched to using a Digitrax DCC system along side my DCS system. I wired in a switch to choose which one goes to the track. The one thing you can't do is change the sound files with the commander, need a TIU for that.

The commanders were made/marketed mostly to the HO crowd, but at 5 amps they will run your single loco and the features like smoke and couplers will work.

This is the one:

DCS Commander

Excellent suggestions by both Jim and Darrell. I never even knew DCC-Ex existed. It is pretty cool. You learn something new everyday.  @Roddyrex Keep us posted and let us know what you decide.

I'll definitely let you guys know. The Explorer went back for exchange so I'll get another chance with that, if it doesn't work out there's a guy looking to trade a DCS Commander for an Explorer on my Facebook marketplace so I'll have that option too. And no matter what I'm going to work at the DCC++EX because I love open source stuff and messing around with Arduino's!! All the best guys, you guys are what make these forums great!!

Just a small update here, MTH told me the Explorer wasn't compatible with my system, which I don't believe but anyway I've moved on and took the refund after paying for the shipping back to TrainWorld. I lost a little over $100 for that quick experiment. I have purchased the DCC-EX Command Station components and looking forward to getting into it. For around $100 CAD I'll be controlling my trains exactly how I want and all in DC power as my Lionel Lionchief will work with DC power as well.  The Motor Board, WiFi controller and O-LED should be here early next week so I'll have an official update real soon for everyone. I've modified my setup to prepare and can easily switch from DC to AC track power while making it impossible to apply both using a DPDT ON-OFF-ON switch.

In the meantime I've been doing some 3D Print projects and turned my Gantry Crane into a fully controlled Crane using an arcade style joystick to drive FWD/REV and swing LEFT/RIGHT then an momentary lever switch for Boom control UP/DOWN and a latching Button for the magnet. I purchase a Linear Motion CNC machine DIY kit on Amazon for $40 CAD printed a some parts to mount the Crane's feet and voila!! The crane is very fun to play with and with an upgraded electromagnet it works awesome!! If anyone is interested in information on how I this I'd be happy to share when I have time to post the pictures and videos as well.

I also made a train test bench set with cheap skateboard bearings and my own 3D printed wheel bearing mounts for 'O' Scale trains which I couldn't believe weren't already out there on Thingaverse or Yeggi. I guess everyone just buys them from Micro-Mark but again it's US only so for pennies on the dollar I made my own . Again I'm willing to share those files as well if anyone wants.

So until next week, I'll update everyone then!!

Cheers,

Todd

Thanks for the update Todd. I am so happy you aren’t going to gut that MTH locomotive. You should write an article on how you upgraded the gantry crane. My friend has one that is TMCC controlled which I was thinking about buying since I still have my old original TMCC system but if there was a way to control a conventional version using DCC I would certainly be interested in reading about that.

Todd, I would also like to know how you converted the gantry crane. Please do post a “how to” and a parts list. Thanks!

Hey guys, I do have a question about running DCC. Can my accessory transformer share the same common/GND? I'm wondering because of  my operating track sections and turnouts that I use an accessory transformer for. Would a DC supply work to activate turnouts and uncouplers?

Thanks again,

Todd

I'm fairly certain my DC supply can share the same terminal block as the common from my AC accessory transformer. Now I use a number of arduino's for animations such as my crossing gates, animated water tower, randomly timed lighting, etc. I have found that any accessories with a coil such as the Oil Derek 455, older 0-27 remote turnouts and older uncoupling track is causing the servos and other DC components to trigger/glitch/activate when the coils are energized. Does anyone have a solution for this? I'm guessing a ceramic capacitor would probably stop this if put across the coil but I'm not 100%.

Cheers,