MTH Z1000 controller question - can I power this with an old Lionel transformer?

David,

If you already have a transformer with a throttle, i.e., the Lionel 1033 or the AF 100 watts, why would you need or want to incorporate an additional stand-alone throttle, such as the the Z-Controller?

The Z-Controller is solely intended to be used as a throttle for a brick-type transformer that lacks a throttle.

The short answer is yes, you can use any (up to 22VAC, 19VAC recommended for best results) AC transformer to power the Z-Controller, however I would use a 5 or 6 amp circuit breaker in line between the transformer and controller to insure the controller will not be damaged by excessive current.  

As to why use the Z-Controller, it may be that the design is preferred over that of the other transformer, or it may be as simple as liking access to a bell button, if one already has an old transformer lying around and a Z-controller laying around.  Lionel has also commented that their smoke units run better on chopped wave transformers, which may be a plus here.  You also have the advantage over using a brick of being able to set a max speed with the lionel transformer.  On the down side some PS1 and QSI electronics won't work properly on the Z-Controller and other 'chopped wave' transformers.  

JGL

I have an MTH PS1 hudson railking (made in 1999) so am guessing that the Z1000 will work ??.   From what I have read on this forum, I understand that the chopped wave form on a Z1000 helps it smoke better, helps the light burn a little brighter, and that the whistle and bell buttons are more responsive.  I don't own a Z1000 yet, but am planning to get one for Father's day.  

John, Is the chopped sign wave created in the brick or in the Z controller?  I always thought if you send a full wave into a Z controller, a full wave would come out.

 the chopped sign wave comes from the electronic transformers like  MTH the older z4000 transformers.

the z1000 is only a controller to adjust the voltage output to the track!

Alan

Dave Zucal posted:

John, Is the chopped sign wave created in the brick or in the Z controller?  I always thought if you send a full wave into a Z controller, a full wave would come out.

The controller is what "chops" the wave.  The actual z1000 brick puts out a pure sine wave at about 20VAC(no load)  MTH bricks as well as Lionel PH180 bricks all supply pure sine waves.  Electronic controllers (most of them) vary the voltage by "chopping" the output wave.  In effect they are turning the transformer on and off really fast.   

repair technician posted:

 the chopped sign wave comes from the electronic transformers like  MTH the older z4000 transformers.

The Z4000 is a rather unique transformer in that it is electronically controlled, but produces a sine wave that is acceptable to engines that won't run on "chopped" waveforms.  Though pure would not be my first choice in how to describe the waveform, the Z4000 does produce a waveform much closer to a pure sine wave than any other electronic control I am aware of, and will operate any engine I am aware of without problems that 'chopped' wave transformers can have.  ( QSI/early PS1 engines.)  

In the world of O gauge transformers the Z4000 is classified as a "pure sine wave" transformer.

repair technician posted:

the z1000 is only a controller to adjust the voltage output to the track!

 

Actually the Z-1000 is the designation for the transformer brick, not the controller.  there are also Z-750's and Z-500's that use the same controller.  

As for the controller, yes, it is only a controller to adjust the voltage output to the track, which it does by 'chopping' off part of the waveform.  The bricks provide pure 60 cycle AC, the electronic controllers chop it.  

JGL

Here are some waveforms from the Z4000 at various settings with a 2 ohm pure resistive load.  As JGL says, close enough to a sine wave not to upset most electronics.

Here's a couple of no-load waveforms, actually more distortion than under load.

Johngaltline posted:

Actually the Z-1000 is the designation for the transformer brick, not the controller.  there are also Z-750's and Z-500's that use the same controller.  

I don't believe this is entirely true, I would have to go find them( sorry not happening right now, presently in the process of moving) but I have/had some Z-Controllers that were labeled NOT FOR USE WITH Z-1000 TRANSFORMERS, or something to that effect. Evidently some (early?) Z-500 and Z-750 controllers couldn't handle the higher amperage of the Z-1000 bricks. I have/had some Z-Controllers that specifically had Z-1000 printed right on the controller itself.

 As far as I know, in the last 10 years or more, all the Z-Controllers produced are able to handle the 1000 watt bricks safely, BUT there may be some Z-Controllers out there that WONT handle a full 1000 watts. All of my later Z-Controllers are just labeled "Z-Controller" without any wattage restrictions noted.

For safety's sake, if using a 1000 watt brick with a Z-Controller, that didn't come together as a set, look to see if it has any restrictions noted on wattage capacity.

Doug

Great info here! I am learning a lot.  Question: can a 120-volt light dimmer (like you use in your home) be used on say a Lionel 1033 or AF transformer?  If so, does this result in a 'chopped' wave?

BTW, another video I just uploaded - Railking 4-8-4 Mohawk PS2:

Drummer3 posted:

Great info here! I am learning a lot.  Question: can a 120-volt light dimmer (like you use in your home) be used on say a Lionel 1033 or AF transformer?  If so, does this result in a 'chopped' wave?

The short answer is no, you can't use a standard light dimmer.  

The long answer is that the electronic train transformer controllers have some extra parts in them that look for the point in the sine wave that is crossing zero volts (called zero crossing) and times the 'chopping' of the wave from this point so that the part of the wave that is outputted is always the rising from zero side of the wave.  on the other hand, the light dimmers simply turn on and off the supply power without regard for what portion of the wave is allowed through.  This works fine for lightbulbs, but not so well for motors.  Depending on the actual dimmer, they may or may not work at lower voltages as well, so it might work to dim incandescent bulbs off track voltage.  

JGL

Actually, I believe most dimmers do use triacs, and so would only be turning off the voltage at the zero crossing, just like an electronic transformer.  However, the light dimmer is designed for resistive loads, and they choke on inductive loads. (don't ask me how I know this).  This is pretty much the circuit found in most cheap lamp dimmers.

You're right, of course on the final effect, GRJ.  The triacs won't turn off until the zero crossing, but the oscillator or such that is controlling the triac doesn't care about the zero crossing and when it happens, likely turning off well before the zero crossing.  

In any case, the point remains that a light dimmer won't work right on an inductive load.  

JGL

In the case of most light dimmers like the one I posted, the "oscillator" is simply the 60hz power, there is no separate frequency involved.  The resistor just determines the trigger point to turn on the triac.

However, as you say, inductive loads are a no-no for simple triac circuits.