N&W611

That's a beast of an engine to run! Congratulations on the opportunity!

Was anything different than you expected? I remember my first time running an excavator from the 1920s. I expected it to be difficult in general. Turned out I was good at not crashing things into their end stops but any precise movements were just impossible. I couldn't believe the amount of finesse you had to have with the clutches to make any fine movement. I was terrible! The foreman would have fired me that day, no doubt about it. It was such a great experience though! I suspect running a full scale steamer would be similar situation; my expectations would not match how it really goes.

Heading there this Friday and staying the weekend. I can’t wait, looks like all in cab seats are sold out. It will be nice weather also.

That's something that's on my bucket list. The FWRHS has had "hands at the throttle" with NKP 765 a few times in the past.

I need to get in the seat if they offer it again in the future.

To BillYo414 the biggest surprise was the throttle.  It takes a lot of oomph to move it and for the novice, you can't finesse it at all.  Must be common as even the 'real' engineer was doing the same thing I had to do to position it. The reverser took a bit a strength too, but it was either all the way forward or back, nothing in between.  Plus, the lanyard on the whistle, you have to take up a lot of slack before it will blow.

Cool stuff @CALNNC. I would have expected the whistle lanyard to be pretty tight to be honest.

@CALNNC posted:

I did experiment with my cell phone and noticed that when I put it in the top pocket of my overalls, set to record video, and with the cover reversed to hide the screen, it would make a pretty decent recording, but my wife made me hand it over telling me I was not going to get kicked off the train. 

Forget getting kicked off. If an FRA inspector caught you, you could have been on the hook for about a $10,000 fine. That's a personal fine, BTW.

@smd4 posted:

Forget getting kicked off. If an FRA inspector caught you, you could have been on the hook for about a $10,000 fine. That's a personal fine, BTW.

Glad my wife was smarter than me in this case , but for 44 years she usually has been.

Glad you got to operate 611. In 2019 I was able to get a whistle blow as all the other options for 611 were just about sold out. Back in 2021, I got a cab tour. We were able to record and shoot photos while things were being explained as the engine was at a stand still not going anywhere. I wouldn't think I would be any good doing anything other than whistle blowing in the cab, which definitely needs work. I think I will stick to getting photos outside, or as a passenger.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Glad you got to operate 611. In 2019 I was able to get a whistle blow as all the other options for 611 were just about sold out. Back in 2021, I got a cab tour. We were able to record and shoot photos while things were being explained as the engine was at a stand still not going anywhere. I wouldn't think I would be any good doing anything other than whistle blowing in the cab, which definitely needs work. I think I will stick to getting photos outside, or as a passenger.

First time I saw the 611 under steam was in the 80's.  It had gone to Jax, FLA.  I got a shot of it west of the Crawford diamond, my oldest son is in the pic but is on the lower right sort of hidden.  I just took a pic of the pics in a frame, that is why they are so poor.  1218 went to Jax too, and that pic show my 2 sons on the pilot while it i was laying over for the night.   My older son on the right, is 43 now. I got a shot 1218 it at the same spot as the 611.  She was at speed here moving quite fast.

When the engine was on display in Roanoke, before restoration, one of the guys who helped the restoration, and had special museum privileges, allowed me to climb into the firebox. Cavernous! Was like being swallowed by a whale.

I'll have to see about popping some photos and videos I took back in 2019 at Strasburg as well as maybe some 2021 videos and pictures. Might take me a bit as I have some other posts I have to tend to later today.

Here is a video from October 2019 during York Week.

Two more from October 2019 York Week.

Here is from 2021.

Last one from 2021.

Is  611 just a big engine? It looks a lot bigger than I expected in these videos. I hope I can see it in person one day.

@BillYo414 posted:

Is  611 just a big engine? It looks a lot bigger than I expected in these videos. I hope I can see it in person one day.

Yes it is a big engine. Like UP's 844 it is huge Northern type steam locomotive. I posted the video of the drivers because that shows you how big. I can pop a few other videos if you like with people next to it tonight if you like?

I didn't realize they were that big. I guess most steamers I have seen are on static display or they're just switchers.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can pop a few other videos if you like with people next to it tonight if you like?

I will never turn down pictures of trains

@BillYo414 posted:

Is  611 just a big engine? It looks a lot bigger than I expected in these videos.

My buddy who helps fire 611 calls NKP 765 a "small engine."

@BillYo414 posted:

I didn't realize they were that big. I guess most steamers I have seen are on static display or they're just switchers.

I will never turn down pictures of trains

I have a couple of videos where they are coupling up to the Strasburg. I think I also have one of 89 doing it as well. 89 is a way smaller engine in terms of length, but even that still looks big to people. I'll have to see the one where 89 passes the cars on the split, see if that can give an idea of size. I have 611 doing the same thing when it was switching to the front of the train from the back.

I think I just haven't seen enough later steam running to really have a sense of size. I saw 89 run and I have seen other steam switchers run so to me they're "normal" sized. We have a narrow gauge steamer that runs locally and it looks tiny haha

How can I get info on the 611 return trip to Virginia? I’m hoping it will be coming through Hagerstown Md.

@romiller49 posted:

How can I get info on the 611 return trip to Virginia? I’m hoping it will be coming through Hagerstown Md.

Not sure about how the route goes. I know in the past the route was talked about. There doesn't seem to be news on when or if 611 will be back up at Strasburg for a while.

Here is a piston perspective of 611 and 89.

Video drive by of 611 and 89.

@CALNNC posted:

...Due to FRA regulations based on train wrecks where engineers were using cellphones and other electronic devices, no electronics are permitted in the cab.  That includes even a video camera like a Go-Pro on a mag mount stuck somewhere...

It's too bad they don't know the rule because this is an incorrect interpretation of it.

The rule about "No Electronics" in a locomotive cab applies only to the operating crew. It says nothing about a guest or some other non-crew member using a camera or phone. How do you think I produced my last 765 run video in 2016? There was a guest in the cab with no operating responsibilities. He shot all the in-cab video and it was perfectly legal.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It's too bad they don't know the rule because this is an incorrect interpretation of it.

The rule about "No Electronics" in a locomotive cab applies only to the operating crew. It says nothing about a guest or some other non-crew member using a camera or phone. How do you think I produced my last 765 run video in 2016? There was a guest in the cab with no operating responsibilities. He shot all the in-cab video and it was perfectly legal.

I suspect rather than dealing with people fumbling with cameras and such, it's easier to just tell them all are banned regardless of what the actual regulation is. 

@Rich Melvin posted:

It's too bad they don't know the rule because this is an incorrect interpretation of it.

The rule about "No Electronics" in a locomotive cab applies only to the operating crew. It says nothing about a guest or some other non-crew member using a camera or phone. How do you think I produced my last 765 run video in 2016? There was a guest in the cab with no operating responsibilities. He shot all the in-cab video and it was perfectly legal.

Always remember to ask Rich because he knows everything. Thank you Rich for clearing that up.

@Rich Melvin

Rich, do you know what route 611 will take back to Virginia? It was asked above if they would go through Hagerstown Maryland. I remember that when 611 came north, there was a lengthy discussion as well as corrections to where she would actually be going due to size and track rules and regulations.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@Rich Melvin

Rich, do you know what route 611 will take back to Virginia? It was asked above if they would go through Hagerstown Maryland. I remember that when 611 came north, there was a lengthy discussion as well as corrections to where she would actually be going due to size and track rules and regulations.

For what it's Worth NS management goes to great lengths to NOT release any routing or schedule information about such "special moves", especially involving a steam locomotive. They tend to be paranoid about "trackside visitors".

I don't have any inside knowledge of the route 611 will take back to Roanoke.

And I sure don't know everything. Just ask my wife, The Lovely and Gracious Linda. 

@Hot Water @Rich Melvin

Thank you both. I know the last time both of you gave insight on where the route would be, as far as where 611 would fit through.

👍👍😁😁

@BillYo414 posted:

Is  611 just a big engine? It looks a lot bigger than I expected in these videos. I hope I can see it in person one day.

It's big.  A big, beautiful steam locomotive.

Photo from October, 2019, Strasburg, PA.

@rthomps

I love the old car.

The folks at Strasburg intimate they have knowledge of the fate of 611, the 3 possible outcomes:  1 - 611  will return to Roanoke to be displayed until it can run again.  2-It is going back to Spencer. 3 - It will be given as permanent loan to Strasburg.

I agree that Strasburg wanted the participants to not fumble with cameras and video, so they banned it all.  But even the jump seat passenger could not have a camera.  I mentioned the fact to the crew while there that the 611 had cameras on it, foot board and down at the drivers, but the response to that was yes they are on it, but not in the cab.  Perhaps they over interpreted the rule, but it would have been nice if they could have provided a video you could pay them for, or even include it in the price of the privilege of running and riding in the cab.

The Saluda Grade here in NC is kaput, it is being sold by NS to a biker/hiker group for a trail, a 31 mile long trail.  We had a millionaire train aficionado here in Hendersonville, that has been trying to buy it for many years since it was rail banked.  He had plans of hooking up with the GSM RR in Bryson City, NC, and with private contractor running the NS branches around here, it could have been possible to have one of the finest tourist railroads in the country.  I would wager that the insurance on allowing passenger trains regular use of Saluda might have been prohibitive though.

I like this photo from the 2016 trip to Asheville.  It gives perspective of the size of the drivers.

Thanks for trying @Mellow Hudson Mike

@rthomps great photo!

I hope 611 can keep running. I guess I assumed the plan was to keep it running besides downtime for maintenance.

I would say the biggest steam engine in my future will be 1309 at Western Maryland Scenic Railroad if I making it back this year. Maybe then I'll get a sense of scale for mainline steamers. I knew they were big but I think I underestimated the size.

@CALNNC posted:

I agree that Strasburg wanted the participants to not fumble with cameras and video, so they banned it all.  But even the jump seat passenger could not have a camera.  I mentioned the fact to the crew while there that the 611 had cameras on it, foot board and down at the drivers, but the response to that was yes they are on it, but not in the cab.  Perhaps they over interpreted the rule, but it would have been nice if they could have provided a video you could pay them for, or even include it in the price of the privilege of running and riding in the cab.

It's very common these days to not allow people in the cab to have cameras. There are many reasons for this, but I would think that a few high-profile accidents on mainlines where crew were on their cells might have had something to do with that.

That said, I am surprised that someone who is not crew and just standing in the cab also can't have a camera. That's a new one.

@BillYo414 posted:

Thanks for trying @Mellow Hudson Mike

@rthomps great photo!

I hope 611 can keep running. I guess I assumed the plan was to keep it running besides downtime for maintenance.

I would say the biggest steam engine in my future will be 1309 at Western Maryland Scenic Railroad if I making it back this year. Maybe then I'll get a sense of scale for mainline steamers. I knew they were big but I think I underestimated the size.

It is understandable to underestimate the size since there is a great mix of engines of varying sizes out there. Some places have medium sized diesels, and small steam engines, others have large diesels, medium sized steam or smaller. Only a few spots have larger locomotives of both kinds.

Steamtown in Scranton PA has a lot there, most don't run because of their state, or the cost as well as other factors that contribute to it being as is. With that being said though, even standing still they are very imposing. I saw the Big Boy they have out there and was in awe of it's size. Granted it was not in the best shape as it had not been painted in some time, so it didn't look so good compared to other steam locomotives on the sight. If you really want to take things in see about going there when they have a good event going, see about taking in everything. Granted the best thing to do would spend at least two days there to try and get everything in. I've been there only twice, once inside Steamtown, the other at the neighboring Trolley Museum.

Trolley Museum you can take a ride out on the rails out through the wilderness. I saw it like that because some spots are slightly overgrown off the tracks. Most of the old rails are hard to see, but you notice where they ran because of the surrounding land and the dips in it. I don't remember how long the ride was, but we had gotten out there just after 12, took the trolley ride, went to the Italian Festival(was during Labor Day Weekend), and came back to look through the Trolley Museum. 5 o'clock came fast, but I think that was because we spent about an hour and change eating.

@CALNNC posted:

…The Saluda Grade here in NC is kaput, it is being sold by NS to a biker/hiker group for a trail, a 31 mile long trail…it could have been possible to have one of the finest tourist railroads in the country.  I would wager that the insurance on allowing passenger trains regular use of Saluda might have been prohibitive though.

Operating tourist trains on Saluda would be an absolute nightmare! You would beat the locomotive to death hauling the train up the grade, then burn up the brake shoes on the passenger cars coming back down.

The train handling skills demanded when operating on a steep grade profile like this are very high. When the Southern operated this railroad, a Road Foreman of Engines took trains down the grade. In other words, even on a full time professional railroad, only a small group of selected engineers from the ranks of the Road Foremen were trusted with the responsibility to bring trains down that steep grade.

And here’s what can happen going UP the grade…
CLICK TO SEE 611 STALL ON SALUDA

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 I saw Big Boy at Steamtown but unfortunately, it was pouring ran so I only saw it from the car. I'm guessing that's why I'm so shocked at 611's apparent size. I hope to get back there some day. I'm a big fan of The Office so Scranton was a great time!

@Rich Melvin that is one heck of a video!! thanks for posting it!

611 stalling on Saluda in 1992 and the training film.  "..running for their lives...", at approx 6:12, no they were not.  That is my wife, she is holding our 2 year old daughter and guiding our 8 year old son, my other son was with me down the grade.  They were caught in an area that was quite in the open when 611 stalled, and she waited and waited for it to move, but it didn't.  When she decided to go ahead an walk up to town, that is when 611 started to move.  She retreated into that rock cut and just waited, and it chugged its way up the grade, no problem.  She was farther back than it looks.  I captured all this on an old VHS video camera, and was right there when she started her slip.  She dug down hard farther down the mountain, belching black smoke and almost stalling there too.

When I was at the controls of the 611 in Strasburg, I though about what the engineer was doing back in '92 to get her up the grade.  It must have be a great effort in getting her to dig in and make it.

In the training video, at the bottom of the grade their is a man on a tractor cutting a small field to the right.  That is Charles Pearson Sr.  He fired SanteFe's on the Saluda grade for the Southern before WW II, came home from that and became a NC State Trooper.  His grandfather, Charles Pearson, Captain in the CSA, was given 1000 acres of land, part of which his grand son is seen cutting, by the Governor of NC because he is the guy that surveyed the path for the Saluda grade.  The last, and current,  Charles Pearson and some relatives, are still living on the remaining 300 acres they own, and his son is following his grand dads foot steps as a NC State Trooper in Yancy County NC.  I have known the Pearson's for many years, and worked with Chip(Charles) at the same field office in Asheville, NC.

CALNNC, that is some fascinating background information and detail on those two videos! Thanks for posting this.

Two great videos. It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does. Obviously the train cannot stop to let him off as it would be a bit before it would come to a full stop even at 8MPH. I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Two great videos. It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does. Obviously the train cannot stop to let him off as it would be a bit before it would come to a full stop even at 8MPH. I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

There is another youtube video, sorry, I do not have the link, but it is a training video on how to drop off a moving train.  Several shots of stepping off freight cars and what foot to put first, depending on what side of the car and direction of travel,  or when you fall, using the wrong foot first, you fall towards the wheels instead of away from them.  OSHA probably prevents that now, and at the Strasburg 611, they had an aluminum platform to enter the engine, you could not use the steps because of OSHA and liability.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

...It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does...I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

@CALNNC posted:

... it is a training video on how to drop off a moving train.  Several shots of stepping off freight cars and what foot to put first, depending on what side of the car and direction of travel...OSHA probably prevents that now, and at the Strasburg 611, they had an aluminum platform to enter the engine, you could not use the steps because of OSHA and liability.

Getting on or off moving railroad equipment is relatively easy, if you do it right. The "Golden Rule" is this:

TRAILING FOOT FIRST

There is no choice to make "... depending on what side of the car and direction of travel..." No matter what kind of car it is, which direction it is going, or whether you are getting ON or OFF, you ALWAYS use your trailing foot first.

• If you are getting ON a piece of moving equipment, the trailing foot goes UP into the step first.
• If you are getting OFF a piece of moving equipment, the trailing foot goes DOWN to the ground first.

I have gotten on and off moving rail equipment hundreds of times at 4 to 8 mph. I dismounted a car once at 10 mph, but that was right on the edge my running speed. I almost fell, but even if I had fallen, I would have fallen away from the rails because I dismounted the car correctly.

The rule preventing getting on or off moving equipment was a tremendous productivity killer. It added huge amounts of time to routine switching moves. After implementing it for several years, most (maybe all?) of the Class 1s ultimately rescinded the rule. I think their limiting speed is 4 mph for getting on or off.

Getting on and off moving equipment is entirely up to individual railroads. Some allow it, some don't. OSHA has nothing to do with this, including the aluminum platform at Strasburg. That was used strictly for convenience or to placate a fear of being sued. There is no applicable FRA or OSHA requirement in play here.

I love to read articles and view videos about the Saluda grade.  I traveled it many times, but didn't know at that time I was aboard a classic.  The first time was in early 1943.  We left CAE traveling SRR coach to Battle Creek MI. to visit my father prior to him transferring to an overseas station.  A couple of years later me and my best friend were old enuf for summer vacation visits to Tryon NC.    My Mother would put us aboard the SRR at CAE and my aunt would pick us up in Tryon. Life got no better than that.    Tommy

@Rich Melvin thanks again. I don't ever see myself being in any position to dismount a train, but it is good to know. I can remember as a kid helping my grandfather and uncle bale hay, and having to occasionally pop off the wagon to get or go after something. I never managed to fall, but have heard from them that being a possibility. Granted trains and tractors are completely different animals but you are definitely prone to fall on your face if not careful.

@Rich Melvin I used to get on and off a locomotive running a slow speed and now that you mention it, I did exit trailing foot first. It felt more natural but they never mentioned mounting or dismounting and switching moves were done regularly that involved getting on and off a moving locomotive. I learned something new today and I'm grateful to have had safe experiences when I was around locomotives. It's scary to think nobody taught me.

This has been one heck of an insightful topic!

@CALNNC, I believe the film you recall may be "Getting off on the Right Foot" which is a vintage Union Pacific film. It shows the correct practices but also the end results of doing it wrong. Santa Fe and Chessie System also made films of a similar nature but they are much harder to find.

In my own case, these practices held my 30-year career in railroading in good form, letting me retire intact.

I could elaborate with other ways of looking at the subject at hand, but Rich (and the above film) have it covered pretty well. No use getting too complex.

Anyway, have a good and safe day!     Don Francis

BTW, This film is on YouTube.

This is one of the best training videos ever produced. It shows how to do it right, but it also shows what can happen - FOR REAL, NO STUNT MEN - if you do it wrong. Glen Roper, the "old head" in this video, really knows his stuff.

I get a kick out of the millennial snowflake reactions to this video. One reviewer calls it, "Union Pacific's ALARMING Employee Safety Film" while another refers to is as a, "...funny railroad safety video..." 

There is absolutely nothing alarming or funny about this video. It is a training video you will remember because it's real, not something contrived by the legal department just so they can check off a box on their CYA list.

Looks like NS has picked up 611 from Strasburg, in the last hour. Perhaps on the way to Roanoke. I have no info on route. ADD: Perhaps on the way to Enola, first.

David

Now I'm curious about how 611 gets transported back. It's obviously not going to be traveling under its own power, but I'm aware that steam locomotive pistons require lubrication that's usually delivered by regular injections of steam, even if the locomotive is not generating any sort of tractive effort. Are the siderods disconnected from the pistons for the move, or is some other tactic employed?

---PCJ

@RailRide posted:

Now I'm curious about how 611 gets transported back. It's obviously not going to be traveling under its own power, but I'm aware that steam locomotive pistons require lubrication that's usually delivered by regular injections of steam, even if the locomotive is not generating any sort of tractive effort. Are the siderods disconnected from the pistons for the move, or is some other tactic employed?

---PCJ

It's called a ferry move. 611 will be under steam just for lubrication.   If I'm wrong the ones in the know will correct me and can give more details.  There are many Ferry moves on Youtube,  including 611 and 765.

@superwarp1 posted:

It's called a ferry move. 611 will be under steam just for lubrication.   If I'm wrong the ones in the know will correct me and can give more details.  There are many Ferry moves on Youtube,  including 611 and 765.

Yeah I believe that you have it right Gary. When 611 came north for the 2019 Strasburg run, we had a big topic all about it(maybe even three topics). I believe I had said somewhere above that both Rich and Hot Water explained quite a bit in that topic, also saying that 611 would be only running steam for lubrication as you have said. I do recall someone had said which way it would be going, that is a route that 611 would not be able to take for clearance and Rich explained why exactly it wouldn't go that way. I can't remember the reasons other than some sort of clearance issue whether a low bridge, or some other issue, just remember them saying it would not be headed the way the person asked if it would.

Three quarters in you can watch 611 leave strasburg

I imagined being under steam to keep the pistons lubricated (lubricant being mixed with cylinder steam) would be the most likely procedure while under tow, and much easier than removing/disconnecting drive rods. Buuuuut, I didn't have any concrete examples to point at to back it up.
---PCJ

@RailRide posted:

I imagined being under steam to keep the pistons lubricated (lubricant being mixed with cylinder steam) would be the most likely procedure while under tow, and much easier than removing/disconnecting drive rods. Buuuuut, I didn't have any concrete examples to point at to back it up.
---PCJ

Absolutely correct. Removing the side rods puts the whole running gear out of balance, and would thus limit the speed allowed for the move. N&W 611 will indeed  be under steam, with the throttle open some amount, while moving, thus providing proper steam flow with lubrication to and through the valves and cylinders. This is the only proper way to move/tow a workable steam locomotive. In fact, the Engineer on 611 may even be asked (by radio) to "add a bit more power in order to maintain speed".

There are only a few large steam locomotives running in the east, and only 611 and 2102 are 4-8-4's.