Need a little help with a LionChief PE smoke unit.

Are you sure you got the top PCB sealed against the fluid bowl?  Sounds like the leak is around the seam for the PCB.

I'm assuming the PCB is the black piece that has the spring and piston in it? I'll double check. 

Rewind!  I was thinking of the PE+ with the fan driven smoke unit.  The puffer is a whole different affair.  I'd probably run it with the shell off to see where the smoke is coming from.

They usually suck the smoke out the inlets on the downstroke due to suction effect, resulting in smoke out the bottom.  I think it's because of the fact that they use a different wadding with the original than what they sell afterwards.   I think it is kind of a neat effect of steam around the steam chest.  I dont mind it.

GRJ - It's coming out the bottom around the piston. Almost as if the two holes in bowl are blocked and I know they are not.

Train Nut - I like my smoke out the stack!!

Jeff T posted:

GRJ - It's coming out the bottom around the piston. Almost as if the two holes in bowl are blocked and I know they are not.

Train Nut - I like my smoke out the stack!!

 Hmmmm... does it seem realistic that way?

TRAIN NUT if same smoke unit as the first release the smoke out the bottom is same issue with as delivered smoke batting I know as I have one and it has half of smoke coming out the bottom.

the real question is what changed with this one after batting change?

gunrunnerjohn do these lion chief engines use same ball bearing units that are supposed to seal chamber on down stroke?

STPAUL - The piston cup is a sealed cup no bearings.

Jeff T posted:

STPAUL - The piston cup is a sealed cup no bearings.

I didn't explain correctly the bearings are held in place just below the smoke batting chamber by a plastic piece that is supposed to allow air into the smoke chamber but seal it other times. 

StPaul posted:

Jeff T posted:

STPAUL - The piston cup is a sealed cup no bearings.

I didn't explain correctly the bearings are held in place just below the smoke batting chamber by a plastic piece that is supposed to allow air into the smoke chamber but seal it other times. 

Oh boy. If there were loose ball bearings in there I certainly didn't see them...

Did you check the plastic/nylon washer that goes between the smoke unit and the boiler casting?  I dropped it withoug noticing the first time I replaced the boiler and got the exact symptom you described: smoke coming out the bottom of the boiler.  Replaced it and problem solved.

Pete

Jeff T posted:

GRJ - It's coming out the bottom around the piston. Almost as if the two holes in bowl are blocked and I know they are not.

Train Nut - I like my smoke out the stack!!

I do too!   I have a lot come out the stack and much much less coming uot the bottom.  And yes- infact it does make it more realistic.  If you ever witnessed a steam engine you would see steam out the bottom steam chest area.

 

 

 

Texas Pete posted:

Did you check the plastic/nylon washer that goes between the smoke unit and the boiler casting?  I dropped it withoug noticing the first time I replaced the boiler and got the exact symptom you described: smoke coming out the bottom of the boiler.  Replaced it and problem solved.

Pete

I believe it is being pulled out the intake holes on the downstroke and not escaping around the stack...

Really seemes like physics.   The suction on the downstroke  pulls out smoke.

Jeff T posted:

GRJ - It's coming out the bottom around the piston. Almost as if the two holes in bowl are blocked and I know they are not.

Train Nut - I like my smoke out the stack!!

If the holes were blocked you wouldn't be getting any smoke out. The Piston pushes the air through the holes. If they're blocked you would just be pulling down nothing.

Texas Pete posted:

Did you check the plastic/nylon washer that goes between the smoke unit and the boiler casting?  I dropped it withoug noticing the first time I replaced the boiler and got the exact symptom you described: smoke coming out the bottom of the boiler.  Replaced it and problem solved.

Pete

TX - First, I didn't see a washer in there, and I did look upon disassembly. Second, how do we explain the leakage at the bottom with the shell off?

Check for a mansiscus(sp?) in the stack, just blow down it, i have had that happen before. A Lionel service video recommends this.

Jeff T posted:

Texas Pete posted:

Did you check the plastic/nylon washer that goes between the smoke unit and the boiler casting?  I dropped it withoug noticing the first time I replaced the boiler and got the exact symptom you described: smoke coming out the bottom of the boiler.  Replaced it and problem solved.

Pete

TX - First, I didn't see a washer in there, and I did look upon disassembly. Second, how do we explain the leakage at the bottom with the shell off?

How many times does one have to say it. The Piston is pulling the smoke out of the upper chamber through the intakes! That's why you're getting smoke out the bottom with or without the shell. Most of those cheap Pistons are very sloppy so it escapes past the piston.

The LionChief PE doesn't have the metal ring around the stack. The piston does not have the ball bearings for a valve. The piston fits very loose in the piston chamber and I don't think it has enough suction on the downstroke to draw it out the bottom of the bowl. Check that the piston is actually moving up and down when running and not stuck like many of the newer ones do. With the piston so sloppy there will be some smoke out the bottom.

Another thing to look for from personal experience with the same loco:  Make sure the smoke unit is aligned perfectly with the smoke stack once you have the loco put back together.  If its not perfectly centered, bend it slightly with a small jewelers screwdriver and you should be back in action.

The hole from cup to chamber hole can twist out of alignment. Also the gap between the two parts can need to be sealed better. Red high temp automotive silcone will work.

   There is another fix for smoke draw out of the intake. You create a flap valve that covers the intake port. Like the rain gaurds on the exhuast of semi trucks or tractors. Draw sucks it shut, pressure lifts it.

  I found a rubber flap valve inside a 12v tire compressor and knew it would fit my brothers 655 "port post"/intake stack .  It works ok and I have had two ideas to play with since.

  My yet to be tried idea to copy it, is a lasso of wire around the intake post/stack with an end sticking up to reach just above the intake stack before being turned down again forming a tight inverted U (n) . A small egg or clam shaped piece of rubber or metal,  stuck on the wire with the "n" shape legs penetating in two spots keeping it aligned on the port.

  Packing getting in there is possible,  but hasnt on the 655 because it has "pac man" discs.

  Ive also sealed the gap between cup and chamber, and just added a coin sized piece of rubber on top of the piston port for a valve. That didnt work as well. I think it was too large, that one has a loose piston to cup fit.  I think it created a bad pumping ratio on in to out. Plus it jammed between piston and cylinder after a few days. But I think if I drill another hole, kept the flapper small, and riveted one on top it might be ok. A thin coinlike piece of sheet metal might work too if the piston stroke isnt larger than the "coin" diameter allowing a flip that could jam.
There might be too much noise too.??

Thinking about it more now as I write,  I have a fresh idea. Two rubber layers. One as a piston seal... Opps, issue,  its drag would hinder gavity on the piston return..... A light spring on the piston top?  Conical to squash flat?.. Ok  hard to find,  but "if"....anywho.. One large layer to seal the piston to cup. A hole in the seal over piston intake. One smaller layer as the flapper on top of that. Small end of spring down to allow flapper rise. Large end of spring up to center it in the cup....oh, got a parts idea: a carburetors accelerator pump diaphragm and/or spring! ?.... Yep! That might do it.

Good luck experimenting!  If any of this gets used,  works or fails, please revive this thread.

Jeff,

You are just making a lot of good smoke. It does suck down and give you a blow down effect when you make good smoke.

My modification to hold more smoke fluid was to place a piece of 1/2" wide oil lamp wick flat on the bottom(cut in a butterfly shape to prevent blocking the holes) and then a wad of the Lionel long wick fluffed.

I can get about 15 drops before getting the blown down smoke. I get a really good run before the smoke gets weak. JT's or Lionel premium.

 

It's currently on the bench with a rag over it. Tired of fooling with it. Not to mention one of the pickup rollers came apart!?

Then again FedEx delivered a Hudson (38041) yesterday...

Jeff T posted:

It's currently on the bench with a rag over it. Tired of fooling with it. Not to mention one of the pickup rollers came apart!?

Then again FedEx delivered a Hudson (38041) yesterday...

Well, I can see why, with a new toy like that.

When you feel like messing with it again, you can solder the roller pin to the end of the support frame. Use flux and hot iron.

How id you get it apart is my real question?