New Lionel ES44ACs speed matching issues with older ES44s

I believe that the new ES44AC engines are the first to have Bluetooth on board.  My previous run NS, SF, BNSF Golden Swoosh do not have Bluetooth.

Did you try the engine with the Bluetooth turned OFF?  I will check in the next day.  I am currently working on the smoke units of my new 1933281 and 1933282 BNSF ES44AC #5411 and #6425.

John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

I believe that the new ES44AC engines are the first to have Bluetooth on board.  My previous run NS, SF, BNSF Golden Swoosh do not have Bluetooth.

Did you try the engine with the Bluetooth turned OFF?  I will check in the next day.  I am currently working on the smoke units of my new 1933281 and 1933282 BNSF ES44AC #5411 and #6425.

John Rowlen

Yes I was operating the new units with bluetooth off, same speed issue is occurring.

I bought 82205 four years ago and just got 1933282. The 82205 runs a tad faster but they run well together in a lash up. 

I don't have any of the earlier ES44AC, but the UP one I have from this latest run is slower than any of the recent Legacy engines I have (SD40-2, SD70ACe, AC6000).  It is about 2 speed steps slower when running MUed with the other engines.  I attributed that to the fact that these ES44 have all 3 axles geared on each truck so maybe the friction is higher.  All the other Legacy engines I own have one non-powered axle.  Gear noise is more pronounced on these ES44, especially on curves.  Similar in noise to the Atlas Dash8-40CW which also have all three axles geared.

JFC454 posted:

I don't have any of the earlier ES44AC, but the UP one I have from this latest run is slower than any of the recent Legacy engines I have (SD40-2, SD70ACe, AC6000).  It is about 2 speed steps slower when running MUed with the other engines.  I attributed that to the fact that these ES44 have all 3 axles geared on each truck so maybe the friction is higher.  All the other Legacy engines I own have one non-powered axle.  Gear noise is more pronounced on these ES44, especially on curves.  Similar in noise to the Atlas Dash8-40CW which also have all three axles geared.

Do the other Lionel Legacy engines, that you mentioned, have bluetooth on board?

You guys are scaring me to death. I have ordered a new engine to lash up with my older unit and now your telling me they won't go together. Wow why is this always a problem. Oh well Ill just have to deal with it but when your talking about 500 to 600 dollars come on how much more will we need to accept until the manufactures will listen,

farmerjohn posted:

Oh well Ill just have to deal with it but when your talking about 500 to 600 dollars come on how much more will we need to accept until the manufactures will listen,

As long as you "deal with it" and "accept it" theres no reason for them to listen.  

You’re using a video to get yourself all fired up. Wait till you receive yours before losing sleep over this. Tanner111 says lashups are ok with his numbers 82205 and 1933282. 

Obviously if all of the axles are powered on the new model, there has been a significant redesign.  What I would like to know is, are the gears still back-driveable on the new model?  (i.e., can the wheels turn the motor?)  And, what are the gear ratios of the old vs. new?  That information should be readily available so modelers can make an informed decision.

If there's nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of, why not come out with it??

Edit: as of 12/19/2019, there are no parts diagrams on the Lionelsupport site for 1933282.

Yes. You are so right. I stated that wrong. This will be my last Lionel engine . My latest purchase was the Santa Fe F units which In waiting on a return number for the 4th time. Wow my dads train from 1945 still runs. .l know it probably won't happen but I wish they would bring production back to USA. A few more dollars yes but I'm all for it.

MichaelB posted:

JFC454 posted:

I don't have any of the earlier ES44AC, but the UP one I have from this latest run is slower than any of the recent Legacy engines I have (SD40-2, SD70ACe, AC6000).  It is about 2 speed steps slower when running MUed with the other engines.  I attributed that to the fact that these ES44 have all 3 axles geared on each truck so maybe the friction is higher.  All the other Legacy engines I own have one non-powered axle.  Gear noise is more pronounced on these ES44, especially on curves.  Similar in noise to the Atlas Dash8-40CW which also have all three axles geared.

Do the other Lionel Legacy engines, that you mentioned, have bluetooth on board?

They all will run with the LionChief app and the catalogs say they have Bluetooth.  However, only the new ES44 has a Bluetooth on/off switch.

romiller49 posted:

You’re using a video to get yourself all fired up. Wait till you receive yours before losing sleep over this. Tanner111 says lashups are ok with his numbers 82205 and 1933282. 

I already have had my 2 Lionel ES44s since last week and they indeed do not play very well with my older ES44AC (from 2012). I tested them at my club layout in lash up mode, but not connected together, and there was a very obvious difference with the speed steps. The higher the speed step, the worse it got. I got the engines up to medium speed and my older ES44AC looked like it was out for blood on my GE ES44AC, because of how much faster it was going.

I also tested them on my home layout in a lash up, but this time the units were connected together. They work but it's pretty obvious it's not an ideal setup, since the pilots would swing the opposite direction on curves. I didn't operate them too far on my layout, since I didn't want to possibly damage the mechanism for the pilots.

Looks like I will need to operate my older ES44AC solo, at least until some kind of a fix can be implemented on the new ones.

Also, can we please not derail the topic (no pun intended)? I would like this thread to stay up so Lionel can hopefully find a solution to this issue.

Ted S posted:

Obviously if all of the axles are powered on the new model, there has been a significant redesign.  What I would like to know is, are the gears still back-driveable on the new model?  (i.e., can the wheels turn the motor?)  And, what are the gear ratios of the old vs. new?  

 

The gears on the my new run ES44AC are back-drivable.

MichaelB posted:

romiller49 posted:

You’re using a video to get yourself all fired up. Wait till you receive yours before losing sleep over this. Tanner111 says lashups are ok with his numbers 82205 and 1933282. 

I already have had my 2 Lionel ES44s since last week and they indeed do not play very well with my older ES44AC (from 2012). I tested them at my club layout in lash up mode, but not connected together, and there was a very obvious difference with the speed steps. The higher the speed step, the worse it got. I got the engines up to medium speed and my older ES44AC looked like it was out for blood on my GE ES44AC, because of how much faster it was going.

Based on what you are seeing, your 2012 engine and my 2015 engine would not play together well either. So the change must have been made after yours was made and it’s not due to Bluetooth. You may be able replace the board that has the speed control and use one from a 2015 engine. I do not know if the railsounds are on that same board, how much that would cost, or if they are swappable. 

If the gears are still back-drivable, it shouldn't be an issue. I thought that was the whole point of this. I ran Legacy steam and diesel together in a lashup, and they obviously have different gearing, and it was never an issue. They ran great together.

If both locos have back-drivable gears it's LESS of an issue.  I think the main reason Lionel adopted these gears several years ago, was to prevent the two motors from fighting each other at very low speeds.  It helped a lot.

A loco with a lower gear ratio is going to run slower, no doubt about it.  It also might have a little more more gear noise as a result.  Some of the great names in O scale like Lobaugh, Max Gray, US Hobbies used to publish the gear ratios in their catalogs and magazine ads.  Lionel and MTH should do the same.  These trains aren't cheap, and discerning customers want to make an informed choice.

I have a Genset switcher in my collection and as far as I can see, the new ES44AC are either geared, or have their PWM controller set to be similar to the Genset. Only difference with my Genset is that it will speed match too my Southern ES44AC very closely if I have it in a lash up, and I specifically have it set as a diesel switcher in the remote.

Outside of a lash up my Genset operates much slower than any of my normal diesel models, but when in a lash up the remote will tell the Genset to switch to different speed steps (if there is a normal diesel and/or steam loco in the lash up).  And my Genset has the older style locking gearbox, which is surprising that it speed matches so closely to my Southern ES44AC (which doesn't have the locking gearbox).

I believe I will run into the same issue if I try to put my Genset in a lash up with my new ES44ACs. Speed steps will change on my Genset and thus will be faster than my new ES44s. I would start swapping trucks between my old ES44AC and my new ones, but I don't know if Lionel will automatically void my warranty if I do that.

I should actually test to see if my new ES44ACs will speed match with my Reading T1.

Also, I still really like my new ES44ACs. They are great runners and sound great, but I am a bit disappointed that I can't operate them with any of my older units. Without damaging something or even causing a train to derail (if I put freight cars between them).

I don't have a horse in this particular race, so I should probably stay out of it altogether.

However, I do own other Legacy locos (steam, diesel, road and switchers) and they all run with the same relative speed table when in a consist.

If this is no longer the case, that will impact my future buying decisions.

My older Lionel 6-81154  Union Pacific ES44AC #7361 runs at the same speed as my new Lionel Bluetooth 1933281 and 1933282 BNSF ES44AC #6411 and #6425. 

See the videos I posted. One will be at slow speed. The next post of mine will have the engines running faster in a three engine consist.

I oiled the older 6-81154 UP ES44AC #7361 again before this video was shot. I recommend that the engines run for a while to accommodate any gear wear issues that may create drag.  Oil the slow engines a second time after some run time.

I will pull out my Norfolk Southern ES44AC from the last run, prior to the new Bluetooth ES44AC engines. The UP ES44AC #7361 is older than the NS, SF and BNSF Golden Swoosh engines.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

My older 6-81154 Union Pacific ES44AC #7361 runs at the same speed as my new Lionel 1933281 and 1933282 BNSF ES44AC engines #6411 and #6425. 

Here is a video of the three engines in a consist that is pulling ten 21" passenger cars.

If there are speed step issues, I have not yet encountered them.  I will pull out my NS ES44AC from the last run prior to Bluetooth and check it.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Oh I forgot to mention that both of my new ES44ACs were run in a lash up at the SD3Rs last weekend for around an hour and a half. I did stop them, during that 1.5 hour running session, to add more smoke fluid. When I did stop them I allowed them to slowly get down to speed step 0, I only operate my models at medium momentum.

Michael B,  I have tried to duplicate the issue you are having with the ES44AC, but have not been able to do it.  

I put another ES44AC, Lionel 6-82210 Norfolk Southern #8065 on my layout with the older UP and new Bluetooth 1933281 and 1933282 BNSF engines and they moved at the same speed. 

I know this doesn't help you, but it is meant to reassure other readers that some previous ES44AC engines run well together.  Your engine could be a rare exception. The two ES44AC examples I ran are from the last two runs of ES44AC engines that did not have Buetooth.

It would be helpful to have the Lionel 6-Product number for your engine for the technically skilled members to help figure what is happening.  Did the Southern ever go in for repair?  Was it new from a hobby store?  I hope you find the solution.

Here is the 6-82210 Norfolk Southern ES44AC #8065 video. It appears to run at the same speed with the other engines.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

It would be helpful to have the Lionel 6-Product number for your engine for the technically skilled members to help figure what is happening.  Did the Southern ever go in for repair?  Was it new from a hobby store?  I hope you find the solution.

 

Right, should have posted it from the start. Product number of the older ES44AC is 6-38963. I purchased it from eBay in December 2018 as a lightly used model. It hasn't been sent back for repair, to my knowledge. I haven't had any issues with operation since I have owned it, well until now.

I will try a factory reset on it tonight, since it could be possible something got messed up with the programming, and also retest it with my other Legacy locos to see if it has any issues with speed syncing with them. I will update with what I find.

Update: My Southern ES44AC is still a bit faster than my SD60E and my Reading T1, not nearly as bad as with my new ES44ACs though. I also put one of my new ES44ACs behind my Reading T1 and indeed there is a difference in a lash up. I put them 12 inches apart (on one side of my room layout an used the track joints as a reference), then operated them up to medium speed until they got to the other side of my layout, and then stopped them so that the front of my ES44AC was perfectly positioned above a straight track joint. The gap increased to around 18 inches with just half a lap around my layout.

Factory reset on my older ES44AC didn't change anything with the speed steps.

When I test for speed consistency, I build a "train" in Legacy with the engines.  I run only the engines, no cars.  I close all the couplers on the engines so they don't connect.  I space the engines so there is about 3" between couplers and then I run the train a couple of laps.  If the gap spacing changes as they run, while the train is running I address just one of the engines and change its speed step by 1 and watch what happens to the spacing.  I keep changing the speed step of just that engine until the gap stays pretty constant.  I then know how many speed steps difference there is between the engines at that particular speed.  At the typical speeds I am running my new ES44AC, it is slower by about 1-2 speed steps compared to my other recent Legacy engines.  That is probably not enough difference to cause problems if it is on the head end, but I wouldn't put it at the end of the train as a DPU behind a bunch of rolling stock.  

If two engines happened to be exactly matched in speed, then the lead engine isn't pulling the train behind it at all. All the work is done by the trailing engine.   In that case if you wiggle the connecting couplers between the lead and trailing engine side to side while the train is moving, there is no tension felt.  If the two engines are not running at the same speed you can feel tension when you try to move the couplers side to side with the train in motion.