New Train Room Finally Getting A Layout! (Last Update: 07/02/2022)

Thanks, but I think Tom has the Fascias "R" Us franchise locked up, this is his design, I just held the tools.   It is taking shape nicely now, the finished fascia really lets you visualize the edge curves better.

I have had some communication asking me "Why do I go to this  amount of effort?"  For a "Reply all" response:

My answer is that this approach literally gets one to  work out of the lock step box of tangent lines and angular corners which I find boring, toward the shapes of an artist's pallet. 

After all, our RRs are comprised of an abundance of curves and various bulbous topographical shapes.   My thought is to develop a interesting and cohesive package presentation. 

My background in  aviation sheet metal manufacturing and designing fiberglass race boat molds schooled me in purposeful soft lines.  

John and I just want others to see how basic and straightforward it is to create a fun project.  Again, this is just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

Let's be clear, the one beggar knew where the bread was, I just got directed to it.   It has been a lot of fun to see this take shape and how well it's turning out!  I just have to be careful not to screw it all up!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's certainly not the smoothest paint job, but it's only a background color and sealing for the Homasote.  I don't intend for the layout to be brown, so I'll just cover it up with scenery.

I also added handles to the lift-out do it's easy to deal with.  I do have to get the proper paint to paint the metal J-channel a similar color, that's not urgent right now.

Hi John,

I plan to put handles on my lift-outs as well. My question is if there is no one around where will you put it when you lift it out? Will it have structures on it or be part of the land form? Enlighten me.

Dave

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, here's what it looks like without clamps and wood holding it in place.   Another step...

Bravo, John and Tom!!!! The bench work is beautiful!

John, it'll be a shame to mess up all that beautiful cabinetry with a bunch of track and scenery 

Lew

luvindemtrains posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I also added handles to the lift-out do it's easy to deal with.  I do have to get the proper paint to paint the metal J-channel a similar color, that's not urgent right now.

Hi John,

I plan to put handles on my lift-outs as well. My question is if there is no one around where will you put it when you lift it out? Will it have structures on it or be part of the land form? Enlighten me.

Dave

The plan is to simply rotate it 45 degrees, turn it somewhat vertical, and lower it through the hole and set it aside.  There won't be any track on it, and any scenery will be firmly attached and low profile.

Randy Harrison posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, here's what it looks like without clamps and wood holding it in place.   Another step...

Bravo, John and Tom!!!! The bench work is beautiful!

Thanks, it's certainly taking shape.  Seeing the fascia the way it's intended to look really makes a difference!

geysergazer posted:

John, it'll be a shame to mess up all that beautiful cabinetry with a bunch of track and scenery 

Well, I could move chairs in and make it a giant dining table, but I think I'll go the original planned direction.

Ingeniero No1 made this access panel in his layout.  Tom might remember it.  I think he approved.

Access panel with closet rod

Ted, we looked at Alex's design, but in the greater scheme of things, it's not that difficult to simply drop the panel through.  It's also dirt simple and easy to execute.

The lift up like Alex built a short while ago and like John Allen did fifty five years ago is neat after a fashion.

However the supporting staff acts like a  tree growing just inside a turntable wall.  You can not turn completely around.  It becomes somewhat restrictive,  impractical.  Unless there was extensive delicate untouchable coverings on the lift out.   However, John is not going there.

Tom Tee posted:

However, John is not going there.

For sure.  Anything on the lift-out will be low-profile to allow easy removal and replacement.  It'll also be light so it's easy to handle.

John, I just got finished getting up to speed on your wonderful work! You and Tom are making magic come to life! I really enjoyed reading everything you and Tom have posted about your build! Its just Amazing what you 2 have done making your layout table look like a high class furniture! I wish I would have been able to see this before I started my build, but then again I would still be at the starting faze! LOL

I really cant wait to see what's next! But John If you don't mind I would like to point out something. I kind of did this with Paul 2 from the forum. Kinda for a laugh and to let you know that I am really looking at what you 2 have going on!

It looks like you might want to take a minute after you have your morning coffee and run the Vacuum! 

Excuse us Mike, but in a man's RR cave that is called weathering!

mike g. posted:

I really cant wait to see what's next! But John If you don't mind I would like to point out something. I kind of did this with Paul 2 from the forum. Kinda for a laugh and to let you know that I am really looking at what you 2 have going on!

It looks like you might want to take a minute after you have your morning coffee and run the Vacuum! 

Mike, the vacuum is certainly going to be used.   I couldn't see doing a major cleanup when I was just going to trash it in the next day or two.  Now that we have the basic benchwork mostly finished, I'll be doing a clean-up.  Note that I've already picked up all the drop cloths that were covering the carpet in preparation for that exact step.  If you think the carpet is bad, you should see the corner where the table saw is currently sitting!

Tom Tee posted:

Excuse us Mike, but in a man's RR cave that is called weathering!

LOL You guys are great! I hope you know I am playing. I would write more, but I have to go take care of my own weathering! LOL

As you approach the table saw you  would feel as though you are walking uphill.   Not sure how John will approach that pile.  I usually save my saw dust to mix in with the gypsum. 

To a mild extent the plans are lost on the floor somewhere and we are just making it up as we go along or so it could seem. I think the only remaining original feature is...............the carpet.

Well, most of the Mianne benchwork is still down there,   It just got "enhanced" a bunch.

The corner with the table saw does need work, but I want to get that Homasote off the floor first...

Guys, your effort looks very organic and free form. I like the idea of not having very many long straight (boring) runs.Nice!

Chris

LVHR

We won't have any straight sides or straight runs.   However, I do want a long run, so the folded dogbone should give me around 120 or so, enough for a decent run.

Hey John.  Been away for a few days. Where did you go? You on vacation. Looked all over for this thread. Buried deep. Lol. Just wanted to see if you got any further.

No, just took a break to catch up on other work.

I hear that. Me to I've been working round the clock for the last week so I haven't been on. Well cant wait for your next update. Most interesting thread in a long time.

I'm regrouping, catching my breath, and prepping some stuff for the track laying step.  I was really letting other things slide for a time, have to get back to those before I can move ahead.  It's also giving me a little time to think and make sure I haven't missed considering something going forward.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm regrouping, catching my breath, and prepping some stuff for the track laying step.  I was really letting other things slide for a time, have to get back to those before I can move ahead.  It's also giving me a little time to think and make sure I haven't missed considering something going forward.

So. gunrunner, still taking a breather from working on your layout? Does that mean you'll now be accepting new customers for engine upgrades, conversions, and repairs?

Actually, I'm holding off any major new repairs/upgrades, I'm still catching up.  I'm currently engaged in sorting all the boxes that were in the back of the area, that's a significant undertaking.  I need to do that to make some room to continue the layout build, next is the inclines for the grades and elevated sections and laying track.  I'm also trying to finalize the track plan, I have deviated quite a bit from where I was originally.  I blame Tom for that, after doing all the neat curves and extensions to the benchwork, lots of new possibilities are popping up.

It looking great! Hopefully first blood has yet to be spillt!

-Greg

Well, I confess, I needed a test track for a couple of repairs that I just couldn't test on the bench rollers.  I looked behind me, and there was this huge table...

I can say, Fastrack is noisy even on a layer of Homasote, I'm glad I'm going with Ross & Gargraves!

Is this a good first test of the test loop?

It looks very promising.  Have fun with the design and construction.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John, you're just hot-doggin it.

John, I love the non-linear bench work and fascia, its really looking good.

Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to having real track on this and being able to put together some real consists.

A little track music like that should make you smile John

I'm eager to get a real track setup down, that's next on the list!

Wow, things are moving along really great, just a question, are you going to add cork roadbed under your track? The reason I asked is on my layout we used homasote, added the cork roadbed, screwed the Atlas O, Ross track only into the homasote, no noisy vibrations, just curious. Your work is fantastic. Happy Railroading 

I'm using the foam roadbed, but if we have issues getting it laid, I have no problem to switching to cork.  My plan is indeed to just fasten to the Homasote in hopes of keeping everything nice and quiet.

I would think the foam roadbed would work fine as I was not aware it existed back in 2000 when I started my layout.  I look forward to your progress. Thank You 

I use cork and fasten it with atlas track nails along the edge. Makes it much easier to replace when I want to change a tiresome route. 

Hey John,  how about a video of the very first engine to run on your new bench work several weeks ago?

Tom, sadly that video didn't happen.  I'm not sure what happened with the phone, but there was no video.  Spoiled the whole joke!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to having real track on this and being able to put together some real consists.

Is FasTrack fake?

Let's just say it's not real enough for me Greg.  I've used it for years, I'm looking forward to being able to hear the sound systems of my locomotives and not the wheels on the echo chamber.

2I can see the lure of some of the Atlas, Ross, and Gargraves realistic looking track. I like the Fastrack for several reasons, but I'm sure it makes some more noise. On the 1/4 inch indoor/outdoor carpet, it's quiet enough for me...it's quietest if you run prototypical speeds.

The quietest I ever heard was on tubular at a train meet. I think it was 027.

John, really enjoying your work.  Looking forward to seeing you get you real track down.

thanks for sharing.

Rich, you're not the only one, can't wait to see something run on the the full layout, that will be very cool!

All restocked John.  It might be tomorrow before the website is updated.

FWIW, if anyone has a Legacy locomotive and needs the conversion jumper for the standard YLB to the RS-Lite board, I do have a few, drop me an email.

Not enough room on the right side?

It should fit right here.

You could also simply splice a couple of inches into the red and black wires if you want to extend it farther.    You'll have to do the same thing with the standard YLB with the battery clip.

I get the connector assemblies pre-cut, that's why they're that length.  Also, I truthfully didn't think there would be that much demand for a really long wire.  Maybe I need to offer "extension" cables.

John Rowlen posted:

I have a beater VL Big Boy #4014 I used when I designed my layout.

This has to be a first, at least for me!  I don't have many "beater" $2,000 locomotives!

I feel better now, I was having a problem with the "beater" designation!

John,

I have installed the YLB 10500 or 10510 in 30 steam engines so far.  There is no room in the Vision Line Big Boy Tender for a YLB. I will add a double pick-up roller to my tender.  At very slow speeds, the Big Boy Coal tender drops sound on a Atlas #5 Double Slip Switch.  Some of my smaller engines have tethers, so they won't need batteries.  I have twelve steam engines with tethers or no room for batteries. I evidently miss-counted steam engines initially. The new total is 42.  And they are all completed.

Thanks again for a solution that has solved the biggest issue on my model railroad.

I will be deleting my posts in this thread in order to keep it on topic.  Your layout is going to be excellent.  I look forward to following the thread.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Those guys keep selling that stuff, I'm going to have to talk to them about it!   I'll see what I can do about getting them restocked early next week.  They had 15 of them on Wed, someone keeps buying them.

John,

I put "the beater" on the tracks and got all features working except the coal.

It was a bright spot in my day after Katie said Lionel had no replacement parts for the missing cowcatcher and coupler on my AC-12 Southern Pacific #4294 that came back from Lionel Service with them missing. How much skill does it take to put all the parts back on an engine after it has been worked on?

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John,

Thank you for delivering more YLB Batteries to Henning's Trains. I have finished the 30 steam engines and will see if any diesels have issues with the Atlas O switches. It is strange that an Atlas O Trainman U23b, with only two pick-up rollers, stalls on the Atlas O #5 Double Crossover switches.  Atlas needs to put four pick-up rollers on all of their engines.  The Master line engines are fine with four pick-up rollers.

Thank you again.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

You keep buying, and I'll keep making.

How is the plywood inventory restocking schedule coming along?

I'm hoping to actually get it this week.  We've had some non-train related family stuff that has consumed a lot of time, and that seems to keep bumping my trip for plywood back.

A really tiny step, I finally got the additional wood to finish the upper level and to build the track inclines.  At least it's in the house!

The drop cloths are just to keep me from whacking a shin on the protruding 5 x 5 piece.

Tiny steps help get you to the destination John!! 

I see something in the distant fog...  It's a working layout!

If you were to build a fair replica of your house, including your new train room, then build a replica of your new layout (a static graphic model would be fine) in the appropriate room, you could say that your "new layout finally getting a train room".

This is not a new idea, of course; maybe even mentioned in the last 22 Forum pages.

Life has intervened in my construction plans and I'm currently working on finishing our loft that used to be storage.  Since it needed climate control, I went with the ductless heatpump up there.  For a modest extra sum, the ductless outdoor units will handle two indoor units.  That being the case, my trainroom got upgraded climate control.  18,000 BTU of heat or A/C on tap now.

Looks good John. Those ductless splits are great units.

GRJ,

I just saw that unit on Amazon for $1,100 earlier this week.  Did you find a better price elsewhere?

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being a real pain in the doopa, how hard was it to install?

SantaFeJim posted:

GRJ,

I just saw that unit on Amazon for $1,100 earlier this week.  Did you find a better price elsewhere?

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being a real pain in the doopa, how hard was it to install?

No way I'd try to install this, and after seeing the process, I'm glad I didn't!  The units themselves are not that expensive, but it takes considerable labor to install them.  One of them, the one on the 3rd floor, has about 60 feet of refrigerant lines going to it.  Just watching the process convinces me that is not a job for a novice.  You also have to be EPA licensed to buy refrigerant of any type.  Add to that the tools you need for the installation, a boatload of brass hardware, vacuum pump, coolant pressure gauges, etc., it's not worth it to attempt these installs on your own.

To answer the question, it was easy, I use the telephone as my primary installation tool.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

SantaFeJim posted:

GRJ,

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being a real pain in the doopa, how hard was it to install?

 

To answer the question, it was easy, I use the telephone as my primary installation tool.

Nuff said.  Thank you.

Suffice to say, it took three and part of the time four guys two days to install the attic and trainroom units, as well as the outside unit.  They had ladders, hardware, an extensive assortment of hardware, cable runs for up the wall, etc.  It took two of these guys one day to install the main level gas furnace and A/C unit!  A big part of the install is connecting the two inside units with the outside units.  Then there's the 50A circuit to the outside unit that has about 80-90 feet of cable back to the power panel, the drains from the two units, etc.

There are lots of projects that a homeowner can reasonably tackle, this isn't one of them, at least IMO.

My whole house has new heat and A/C for all levels, I should be good for many years to come.

They are certainly nice units!  I agree the refrigerant lines, etc. would be a project for the professionals.  Certainly not for us who have trouble lifting and carying even if we knew what we were doing!  

Mark, there's also the minor inconvenience of having to be EPA certified to handle refrigerant.

The same as me not letting these guys design a circuit for me, I wouldn't try to do their job.  That's not to say I don't understand the elements that go into the job, but they arrive with two large trucks full of equipment and tools.  By the time I buy all the equipment and tools  needed to do the job, I'd have already paid for professional installation.  Since I'd only get to use all the equipment and tools once for the most part, it doesn't seem to make sense.

Very nice, neat job. Worth every penny John. He's right guys- leave it to the pros.

We've been installing these on my campus for many years. They are very efficient. Most have variable speed compressors and only use power as necessary. Ductless splits have been around a long time. Only been in the States for about 10-15 years.

Bob

I remember seeing these units in Europe in the 2000-2007 and wondering why I'd never seen them in the US.  In the last few years, they've been popping up everywhere.  It so happened that my particular situation lends itself to the dual head unit perfectly, and having individual climate control for the added areas is way better than trying to tie them into the main system.

Yep- ductwork takes up precious train space.

Can't have that now, can we....

John:

I had an old wall unit for the garage shop replaced with a mini-split about 6 months ago. The installers (Goettle) did a great job. They removed the old unit, plugged and patched in the hole (quite large) and since the hole was there installed all wires and hose inside the wall, then installed the handler high up towards the ceiling out of the way. The unit plus installation was not cheap but with its quality and efficiency bills will be less expensive from now on.

Joe

Added photo - the patch work for the old unit is just behind the hand cart.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, there's also the minor inconvenience of having to be EPA certified to handle refrigerant.

 

Yes indeed, John!!  

Looking good John. Temperature control is an important factor. The techs did a nice clean job.

Andy

Yep, they were pretty professional, I'm hoping that solves one problem I might have, comfort.

Had Mitsubishi setup with 5 wall units hooked up to a big unit outside. Have hot water heat on the first floor and forced air on the second floor. The spit system was about the best way to go. Was more money but think it was worth it. Had them put a unit in the train room. They all have AC  heat and a dry setting  mode to dehumidify. Took 4 guys about a day and a half to install. Just love it only run it in the rooms being used at the time. Supper quiet system can't really hear the outside unit running. Not like the noise the compressor for the second floor AC system makes. Yea they were talking tear out the ceiling in the train room to install ducts for a forced air system for the first floor. It would be about half the price as a split system for equipment and install. I really did not want to take all the trains and stuff out so they could run ducts. Not to mention the mess taking out the ceiling. Anyway a great system.

Wow, five units, I thought I was going big with two!   I did notice that there were connections for two more units on the outside box.  I guess if I get a wild idea of another space with individual heat, I could add another connection.  The outside unit I have is good for 36,000 BTU of cooling, that's shared between the units.

What they did was put a junction box in the basement that will take five units. Then they run one line set from the box to the 42,000 BTU unit outside. After 40 years of hanging window units in and out it was time.

They are awesome units.  We've had our Mitsubishi units for two years now and love them, extremely quiet and efficient.  We have four head units, two on each floor and they work great.  The tech had to run a vacuum pump for six hours to reach the proper amount of vacuum.  It was a good and much needed break for him because it took them a day and a half to drill the holes through the red brick on the exterior of the house.  Then they had to deal with the tops of the sill plates above the windows.  And of all things it was 90 degrees that week.  Burned up 2 masonry whole saws in the process!

Looking forward to seeing your progress on the layout!

Had a similar plan to add one of those units to my basement when we bought our house in 2016.  It’s a walkout finished basement containing my woodworking shop, theatre room and an area for the train layout.  It has no a/c and the only heat is a wood burning stove.

Decided to wait a year for my bank account to recover after buying the house.  In the meantime, started to track how many days I would need a/c and heat with a digital thermometer that records history.  Figured that info would help in buying an appropriate size unit.

Now going on three years and have had no days that I needed a/c.  The heat is only justifiable  during an average of 14 weeks.  So far, on occasional fire in the wood burning stove or an electric space heater is all that is needed to make it comfortable.  The highest recorded temp was 74 and the lowest was 59.  Current temp is 68. Hard to justify the expense for a nice split unit so far. Besides, the wife likes the excuse to have an occasional fire while watching a movie on the projector.

We did buy a dehumidifier that I run occasionally during the humid Virginia summers. Highest recorded humidity so far has been 64 percent.  Prior owners did a nice job of sealing the basement and adding a good layer of spray foam  insulation in the walls.

My friend, the question is... when am i going to see track being installed LOL !

Also i have something for you. 

Alex

Alex, track is next.  My daughter threw a monkey wrench into my layout construction, she showed up with a couple of kids!  We're making room for them, so in addition to doing the heat and A/C, we're also finishing the 3rd floor loft.  Life occasionally intervenes when you're making other plans.

jstraw124 posted:

Now going on three years and have had no days that I needed a/c.  The heat is only justifiable  during an average of 14 weeks.  So far, on occasional fire in the wood burning stove or an electric space heater is all that is needed to make it comfortable.  The highest recorded temp was 74 and the lowest was 59.  Current temp is 68.

My situation is a bit different.  Since we were installing the loft climate control, the add-on to do the basement was less than if I were buying the whole system just for that area.  Also, closing off the basement vents will allow the main system to better distribute even heat to the upstairs.  I suspect that sometime in my future I'll be replacing the sliding door with something that holds the heat in better, that's in the future...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Alex, track is next.  My daughter threw a monkey wrench into my layout construction, she showed up with a couple of kids!  We're making room for them, so in addition to doing the heat and A/C, we're also finishing the 3rd floor loft.  Life occasionally intervenes when you're making other plans.

jstraw124 posted:

Now going on three years and have had no days that I needed a/c.  The heat is only justifiable  during an average of 14 weeks.  So far, on occasional fire in the wood burning stove or an electric space heater is all that is needed to make it comfortable.  The highest recorded temp was 74 and the lowest was 59.  Current temp is 68.

My situation is a bit different.  Since we were installing the loft climate control, the add-on to do the basement was less than if I were buying the whole system just for that area.  Also, closing off the basement vents will allow the main system to better distribute even heat to the upstairs.  I suspect that sometime in my future I'll be replacing the sliding door with something that holds the heat in better, that's in the future...

John I hear ya LOL , I’m just Breaking your Chops lol. I’ve been trying for the last two years, and I get get to first base. 

Alex 

Alex, my goal is to have track before you do, you had a space for the layout before me.

John, Yes now I see life gets in the way of even your layout!!  Well, I was working part-time for the last 7 months, but told the boss I was over my head with responsibilities and was leaving.  He said, "Take care of your family first"!!  Maybe he was thinking, "Why did we hire this old guy anyway"?? 

Us "old guys" are more reliable, that's why they want to hire us.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Us "old guys" are more reliable, that's why they want to hire us.

You can't beat experience, plain and simple. Most managers forget things like that. I myself often get the "are you sure about that" question from my boss. I can do stuff blindfolded while he and some others can get what it is when I show them.

Monkey wrenches always happen John, Alex & Mark. Maybe we should toss darts at the dart board and play those numbers in the lottery, lol.

Did the installation guys inquire the reason why you had a massive table in the basement?

Best of luck with bringing your daughter and grandkids under your wing. Perhaps there will be some train running time with gramps once things settle down.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Alex, track is next.  My daughter threw a monkey wrench into my layout construction, she showed up with a couple of kids!  We're making room for them, so in addition to doing the heat and A/C, we're also finishing the 3rd floor loft.  Life occasionally intervenes when you're making other plans.

jstraw124 posted:

Now going on three years and have had no days that I needed a/c.  The heat is only justifiable  during an average of 14 weeks.  So far, on occasional fire in the wood burning stove or an electric space heater is all that is needed to make it comfortable.  The highest recorded temp was 74 and the lowest was 59.  Current temp is 68.

My situation is a bit different.  Since we were installing the loft climate control, the add-on to do the basement was less than if I were buying the whole system just for that area.  Also, closing off the basement vents will allow the main system to better distribute even heat to the upstairs.  I suspect that sometime in my future I'll be replacing the sliding door with something that holds the heat in better, that's in the future...

Be sure to check out the various methods of insulating that slider before deciding to replace. There are a lot of options.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Us "old guys" are more reliable, that's why they want to hire us.

You can't beat experience, plain and simple. Most managers forget things like that. I myself often get the "are you sure about that" question from my boss. I can do stuff blindfolded while he and some others can get what it is when I show them.

Monkey wrenches always happen John, Alex & Mark. Maybe we should toss darts at the dart board and play those numbers in the lottery, lol.

John and Dave, That is exactly why they hired me.  The trouble was the pace for tech support was too taxing for me.  My blood pressure went up every day.  If I hadn't already been on anti-anxiety medication, I probably wouldn't have lasted as long as I did.    At least I can better appreciate what the person on the other end of the phone has to deal with when I call for tech support or customer service, now!  

Mark Boyce posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Us "old guys" are more reliable, that's why they want to hire us.

You can't beat experience, plain and simple. Most managers forget things like that. I myself often get the "are you sure about that" question from my boss. I can do stuff blindfolded while he and some others can get what it is when I show them.

Monkey wrenches always happen John, Alex & Mark. Maybe we should toss darts at the dart board and play those numbers in the lottery, lol.

John and Dave, That is exactly why they hired me.  The trouble was the pace for tech support was too taxing for me.  My blood pressure went up every day.  If I hadn't already been on anti-anxiety medication, I probably wouldn't have lasted as long as I did.    At least I can better appreciate what the person on the other end of the phone has to deal with when I call for tech support or customer service, now!  

One of the guys who worked with me was in our CS. A nice short old guy who would have his ear to the phone and be understanding, concerned for the customer's needs, willing to do whatever was humanly possible, and communicate to the highest degree. They don't make guys like him anymore(or they're really hard to find nowadays). He was a lesson in excellence of job knowledge and implementation. That's why whenever I call up a place, I think of him on the other end and I am calm and rational.

JD2035RR posted:

Did the installation guys inquire the reason why you had a massive table in the basement?

Best of luck with bringing your daughter and grandkids under your wing. Perhaps there will be some train running time with gramps once things settle down.

One of the installers was an avid train guy, so he knew right away what was up.

Richie C. posted:

Be sure to check out the various methods of insulating that slider before deciding to replace. There are a lot of options.

Yep, I'll probably be considering perhaps French Doors, that would give me maximum access to the basement.  That's all in the future, got to get things laying flat for the time being.

To add to the contractor/ train guy stories.

About 20 +  years ago I was doing a big renovation of a large house on the north shore of Long Island. I met the GC there to go over the project. The house was nothing remarkable except for the NYC skyline views from the pool deck. As we got down to the basement I came across a closed door. I asked what was behind it and the contractor wasn't sure. We opened it and turned on the lights and a huge O gauge layout with all the bells and whistles was sitting there. My jaw hit the floor and before the job was done I had trains running on the layout and helped the non-train savvy new owner understand how it all worked. The layout could run 4 trains simultaneously with automatic block control.  I wish I had taken some photos but we weren't carrying cameras around with us yet. 

John- best of luck settling in your daughter and grand kids.

John, I too wish you well getting your daughter and grandchildren settled in!!!

John, In a total remodel 3 years ago i replaced an early `60's slider with French Doors. Went whole hog with internal adjustable blinds and external retractable screens. Now all of the drafts are gone and they look great. Just do it as soon as the checkbook allows.

John, any progress on the layout? Track? It's been a while since you posted.

Yep, been a while since I've been able to work on it.  Lots of other things seem to be getting in the way.

Time marches on Gramps!

Don't I know it.

By way of the forum, I talked to Tom this week. I saw that he built model railroad benchwork, so started a conversation about benchwork. He liked the product I had chosen and I mentioned what a fantastic job GRJ had done with Mianne. LOL, if you are following this thread.

Well, it is in my house Keith.   Tom was clearly the architect of great look to the benchwork.  My contribution was putting the base together and being an eager assistant, learned a lot of new woodworking skills during this build.

Tom has shown some of his work and ideas here on the Forum of layouts he built from scratch.  I think he really went far beyond on your’s, John, by showing how to make an existing rectangular base table better.  I’m sure it was a great experience watching, assisting, and learning from Tom!

It was very illuminating Mark, Tom's a real artist with wood.

It's been quite a while since I had an update, finally started working on the track.  Working on the table level track, finding out that the plan on paper doesn't always work exactly the same way when you have physical track.  

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

...finding out that the plan on paper doesn't always work exactly the same way when you have physical track.  

What? Say it ain't so haha what issues did you run into?

I've relied heavily on software. I hope I don't run into TOO many problems.

John,  Now you know why there are 2 S turns in my layout to get the dang thing to fit without major surgery.

I’m glad you are getting some time at it, John!!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

finding out that the plan on paper doesn't always work exactly the same way when you have physical track.  

 

Me too. 

Good to see you are finally getting started on laying track.  Did you have to put the double slip switch right on the edge of the lift bridge? Seems like asking for trouble/more work.  Or is that the part of the plan that didn’t quite work out?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like a giant guitar. 

Great use of the double slip switches John.  They will provide immediate access of your yard to which ever right a way you choose.  Without them, the service they perform would take quite a few additional turnouts, push back into the grade and require a much longer  piece of real estate.  Very efficient design, looking great!

Well this should be fun to vicariously enjoy if your epic table build is any indication. Your table is the lamborghini of train tables, so the actual layout should be something special.

How did I miss 23 pages of this thread?  Great looking start.  Will enjoy watching this one progress.

I like your precise carpentry John. Patient and thoughtful planning pays off for you. 

Really looking terrific John, you are going to have a blast running trains on it.

@Will posted:

Well this should be fun to vicariously enjoy if your epic table build is any indication. Your table is the lamborghini of train tables, so the actual layout should be something special.

I can't claim credit for the excellent carpentry, I was the apprentice on that job!  Tom T. did the heavy lifting, he's something else when it comes to that stuff!  I wouldn't have anything like this is it weren't for Tom's excellent skills and guidance.  I can do basic carpentry, but I didn't have the knowledge or experience to create something like this ended up.  I did learn a lot during the build, and I feel I could do a reasonable facsimile of the build having seen the techniques and done a bunch of the work.

@Lehigh74 posted:

Good to see you are finally getting started on laying track.  Did you have to put the double slip switch right on the edge of the lift bridge? Seems like asking for trouble/more work.  Or is that the part of the plan that didn’t quite work out?

Actually, the two DSS are key to allowing me access to all three loops as well as full access to the yard.  I originally had a sea of switches trying to do the same thing, that was one of the realizations I came to after actually setting the switches onto the layout and seeing that reality bites.  I had one DSS in the design and switches, I finally realized that another DSS would solve a bunch of the problems that I was addressing poorly with three switches!

@BillYo414 posted:

What? Say it ain't so haha what issues did you run into?

I've relied heavily on software. I hope I don't run into TOO many problems.

Things like I used a 101 switch off of the double-slip switch, found out that the 201 switch is what matches the angle of the DSS.  Fortunately, I happened to have one of those I could swap out from another place on the plan, so I was able to resolve that easier than many of the issues.  I have a bunch of #6 switches that I can't use, turns out they're REALLY for big layouts!  I thought it would be nice to have the gradual angle when going between loops, but those suckers are way longer than I could fit in.  They seemed to fit on paper, but they sure didn't fit when I got to actually using them.  Several other places I had a switch that when I actually got to the actual track it really didn't work out well.  One of the issues with designing with Flex track is it's very easy to create almost anything on paper that looks good, but when you try to duplicate it for real, you realize that things don't actually work the way you like.

I'm also seeing stuff that would be really neat to do now that I have actually started laying track down on the table, so the plan is undergoing considerable modification.

I'm from the sectional track camp for my previous builds, and this is the biggest thing I've attempted.  It's also my first time using flex track as well.  Lessons are coming hard and fast, but I will persevere!

This is the current plan, but it's undergoing some minor mods as we speak.  I have yet to add some extra industry sidings that will show up.  If I could figure out how to represent my interior cutout in AnyRail, it would be shown.   The main loop is still what I originally envisioned, a two-level folded dog-bone, total track length around 140 feet.  I've added a couple of extra loops on the right, one on each level.  I envision them being used for either continuous running when guests are here (if we ever exit lockdown!) and I can't pay attention to what's happening, or simply a nice spot to park a train or two.  There is a table level spur on the extreme right that will be my workshop entry spur for launching stuff from the bench.

Well you're making me nervous. I have also used Anyrail and I have also used #6 switches haha

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

This is the current plan, but it's undergoing some minor mods as we speak.  I have yet to add some extra industry sidings that will show up.  If I could figure out how to represent my interior cutout in AnyRail, it would be shown.   The main loop is still what I originally envisioned, a two-level folded dog-bone, total track length around 140 feet.  I've added a couple of extra loops on the right, one on each level.  I envision them being used for either continuous running when guests are here (if we ever exit lockdown!) and I can't pay attention to what's happening, or simply a nice spot to park a train or two.  There is a table level spur on the extreme right that will be my workshop entry spur for launching stuff from the bench.

John I love it!  Especially the whole "Zoo Junction" thing you have going on center right!  Philly / Pennsy people know what I'm talking about   Would you please be kind enough to post your current AnyRail file?  I would like to explore the right side in more detail.  What a fun and exciting time this must be for you!

Make sure you turn the column into a giant smokestack.

@BillYo414 posted:

Well you're making me nervous. I have also used Anyrail and I have also used #6 switches haha

They didn't look that big on the plan, but they sure grew when I got the boxes!   They're over 19" long, for some reason that didn't seem that large when I plopped them onto my initial plan.

@Ted S posted:

John I love it!  Especially the whole "Zoo Junction" thing you have going on center right!  Philly / Pennsy people know what I'm talking about   Would you please be kind enough to post your current AnyRail file?  I would like to explore the right side in more detail.  What a fun and exciting time this must be for you!

Looking to see the 3-ring circus?   Here's my latest plan, but I'm already ripping that apart to make it closer to what we actually have on the table now that I've discovered some flaws in the layout.   The plan below reflects what is in the 3D view, things are changing as we speak.

John's Preliminary Track Plan.any

Ex-PRR Zoo interlocking, Philadelphia PA

When I was 8 my parents took me to the Zoo.  I spent most of the time on the monrail platform watching Amtrak and PC GG-1s navigate this maze of trackage.  It's multi-level, just like GRJ's!

I’m concerned that having the double slip switch right on the edge of the lift bridge, you will have some very short pieces of track if you cut the track at the edge of the lift bridge.  I suppose you could have the track that is on the lift portion hang over a bit long to avoid those short pieces.

That's exactly what is happening, they're going to hang over half an inch.  I don't want half inch pieces of track.

John, it is hard to see what is going on in the center there. I can see there are two levels, but I am having trouble pulling them apart. Does your software let you color code the different levels? Or if you send me a plan of each level ( top view, .jpeg or .png- could be screen save ) I can bring them into Photoshop and superimpose them and add color for each level.

Here's the table level track and the elevated level track.  This is close to what it'll be, but some things are getting moved around slightly, I'm in the midst of cleaning up the plan... again.  I haven't shown any sidings yet, still deciding exactly where they'll be.

GRJ

Glad to see your are designing and building a layout in addition to your role as a regular contributor to this forum. Now you  can do your "day job" 8 to 5, contribute to the OGR Forum 6 to 10, and immerse yourself in layout plans from 10 to midnight. That schedule will keep you off the streets and safe from COVID-19!

Carry on, valiantly ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394
mottlermike10@gmail.com

You must have been peeking in my window last night, it was right around midnight when I closed up shop!

Glad to see you working on your lay-out again, keep up the good work.

Now if Alex M could get back to working on his instead of all those repairs!

Redball 342

Spent a few hours, cutting lumber for the elevated sections.  Got the ramps cut, just need to cut the loop for the elevated track on the other end.  Obviously, the blocks were just for sizing and checking elevation, I have to work on the permanent supports.  The bit piece on the end gets a center section cutout, but I'm going to finalize the exact location of the track there before that happens.  Have some trimming to do on one of the other pieces, but it's nice to make some progress.

Really like the way you recessed  the 1/2" multiply into a cut out of the 1/2" homosote.  Nice blend job.  Great transition.  Real clean work forming the wye at the top of the ramp also.

Thanks tom, I don't know where I could have gotten the idea of recessing the plywood into the Homasote!

It's slowly taking shape, but I'm getting a little more excited.  Miles to go before trains run, but every journey starts with a single step.

John, 

Looking very nice, and making progress. 

Alex 

Thanks Alex, I'm looking forward to the end result.

Looks good John. I assume you still need to lay cork roadbed?

Bob

I actually have foam roadbed, I will be putting that down when it's time.  However, the ramps are only a "trial fit", they're not actually going to be supported with blue foam, that was just getting them all cut and fitted.  Still to go is cutting the elevated section on the right and having all of it fit together.  Once everything is cut, I can start laying the track permanently under the elevated sections and then get them nailed down.

Looking great John. One thing I wouldn't have the patience for is testing with levels. I would be going bonkers out of my mind when the engine stops and all I do is not having any effect on anything. I did that with HO but that was one level and that was a pain. Took forever to find the disconnect.

I'm not anticipating any issue with locomotives stopping because they on the second level, not sure why that would be an issue.  I do plan on wiring all of it properly, of course.

Gunrunner John, your table work is awesome, just wondering if you plan to use cork roadbed, or some other type of roadbed under the track? Also, are you using Gargraves or Atlas O track? Watching this neat layout unfold will be a lot of fun  as I’m sure with your electrical knowledge it will be state of the art. It’s an exciting time in our hobby with so many neat train items available from our manufacturers. Keep the pictures coming. Happy Railroading. 

I'm trying out foam roadbed for the first time, it's the same thickness as the cork.  I'm using Gargraves track and Ross switches.  The switches and any O72 sectional track is Ross, the larger curves are Gargraves flex.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm trying out foam roadbed for the first time, it's the same thickness as the cork.  I'm using Gargraves track and Ross switches.  The switches and any O72 sectional track is Ross, the larger curves are Gargraves flex.

What kind of foam are you using?? What's your source?? TIA..

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm not anticipating any issue with locomotives topping because they on the second level, not sure why that would be an issue.  I do plan on wiring all of it properly, of course.

The chance of any mishap occurring is directly related to the risk of damage to the equipment.

Well, wide curves, wide right-of-way, and slow speeds would seem to minimize the risk of damage.  We'll see, but that's not my chief worry.

It is looking great, John!!    What does Tom mean by recessing the plywood into the Homasote?  Now that my benchwork and roadbed is about done, I need to learn what I did wrong.  Tom also showed me where I could have purchased really neat benchwork on another current OGR topic!!  

R We runnin' yet????? 

@Mark Boyce posted:

What does Tom mean by recessing the plywood into the Homasote? 

Mark, in order to start at table level with the elevated track, you have to taper into the Homasote, see below.  The 1/2" Homasote is cut out and the 1/2" plywood for the elevated ramp starts at table level there.

As you can see, the indicated spot actually has the ramp plywood even with the Homasote and it gradually ramps up.  I have a couple of feet of gradual ramp easement to minimize issues transitioning into the grade.

@Woodson posted:

What kind of foam are you using?? What's your source?? TIA..

I bought it from a guy on eBay, since I'm not allowed to post ebay links here, drop me an email and I'll give you the poop on it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, in order to start at table level with the elevated track, you have to taper into the Homasote, see below.  The 1/2" Homasote is cut out and the 1/2" plywood for the elevated ramp starts at table level there.

As you can see, the indicated spot actually has the ramp plywood even with the Homasote and it gradually ramps up.  I have a couple of feet of gradual ramp easement to minimize issues transitioning into the grade.

Thank you, John.  I can see where the lighter layer is tapered down to the darker layer, and it will make a great vertical easement into your grade.  So are you grinding away plywood, Homasote, or both to get the taper?

Just cut up the Homasote layer and screwed the ramp plywood right to the wood under the Homasote.  The ramps won't have a Homasote layer, just the foam roadbed.

Thank you, John!  That makes sense to me now!!

Moving along nicely John!

Great work John. Interesting design and levels. I enjoy watching the progress.

If you wish to use Homasote on the elevated portion: 

Once you have established the smooth vertical curve  transition into the incline then you can terminate that piece of plywood and continue with incline plywood by lowering the incline plywood 1/2" and back it up 8" +/-  and attach the top of the elevated plywood to the bottom of the transition piece.  This gives you a 1/2" step to continue with Homasote for the remainder of the elevated portion.

For purposes of this paragraph let's just imagine the dual track subroadbed is 9" wide.   When you have already cut your subroadbed material and it is on a curve where backing it up would not be work well then simply fabricate a matching curved 9" X 16" gusset attaching it 8" (half way) under the severed incline, add  a  9" X  8" piece of curved plywood on top of the exposed portion of scabbed gusset as a extension of the established incline.  Now that 9" X 8" add-on-piece becomes the sandwich interface for the bottom of the  vertical curve transition piece.  With that done you have a 1/2" step down and to accommodate the 1/2" Homasote and can now continue on up the hill with Homasote.

Once you work with Homasote it is hard to go back to laying right a way on plywood decking.

Continuing:  if dropping the rest of the 1/2" plywood ramp happens to mess  with your calculated clearance for the lower tracks which you are going to pass over, no problem.  Just use the step method again.  Stop the plywood 4" back from the C/L of the lower track, stop the Homasote 12" back from the C/L of the lower track, and instead of using Homasote use the 1/2" plywood as a replacement for just over the lower track.  This will recapture the clearance you originally desired.  Now once past the lower track reverse the step to return to a Homasote working surface.

Over pass Homasote substitution example:

Because of the  shallow angle of the overpass the 1/2" Homasote replacement is quite long.  The brown paint is where the Homasote stops.  The plywood is the same stiff 1/2" Birch multiply we used  on GRJ's main decking.

This view shows how long the top plywood gusset had to run.  The spiral easement template is to draw a centerline for the track.

The intrusive block corner is now embraced with a light weight removable mountain so as to be able to easily service the turnout

Holy Cow Tom, that looks way beyond my capabilities.  

In any case, I've decided not to add Homasote to the incline.  My grades are at around 2.7% now on the ramp, I don't want to push that any more.  The top level is at 7", that gives me just enough clearance for the tallest car we could find, the MTH Autorack at around 5 1/4".

It's just a lot of words.  I would be glad to stop by and cut in the 1/2" step for you.  Should take less than an hour. Nothing in my previous post will affect the rate of the grade percentage.

If you let me loose there I might just back up the start of the vertical curve transition to the slip switch and further reduce the grade percentage .

John, I just rolled back up the screen and noted what looks like the second track for the yard is coming off the start of the outside curve.  Is this an added on stub siding or the second yard track?

I believe my bump out allowed for both yard entrance tracks to come off of the double slip switch which would allow for a longer grade.  Please refresh this old man's memory.

Tom, you're actually correct.  Somehow that got lost in the shuffle, I liked it better the way we had it before.  It's back, and I even save a switch, I already have the 101 in hand.

I added the table extension as near as I can come with the track planning program.

So, the old man (your's truly) is not totally out to lunch, yet!!   Any thoughts as to backing up the start of the incline? 

If you come off the slip switch with an immediate right hand switch instead of the left hand you will eliminate the "S" curve and extend the dual tracks.

@Tom Tee posted:

It's just a lot of words.  I would be glad to stop by and cut in the 1/2" step for you.  Should take less than an hour. Nothing in my previous post will affect the rate of the grade percentage.

If you let me loose there I might just back up the start of the vertical curve transition to the slip switch and further reduce the grade percentage .

Well, it was a lot of words!   With that switch removed, I could start the grade earlier, that's not a bad plan.

@Tom Tee posted:

So, the old man (your's truly) is not totally out to lunch, yet!!   Any thoughts as to backing up the start of the incline? 

If you come off the slip switch with an immediate right hand switch instead of the left hand you will eliminate the "S" curve and extend the dual tracks.

I fooled around with that, but the angle the switch comes off still gives me an S-curve as I have to avoid the edge of the table anyway.  My table representation is not "quite" real, I may have to fine tune it.

That sounds slick, Tom!!     You will have all of us tearing out our roadbed and starting from scratch before John has his layout up and running!!  

John, How about a wide radius RH Ross curved switch butted up against the slip switch? 

You just need to see how many degrees of curvature their widest curved switch has compared to how many degrees of curvature is needed  coming off the slip switch then determine how many degrees of curvature you can remove from the curved switch if needed. Ross switches lend themselves readily to serious surgery

Mark, that is just my way of developing job security. 

@Tom Tee posted:

John, How about a wide radius RH Ross curved switch butted up against the slip switch? 

You just need to see how many degrees of curvature their widest curved switch has compared to how many degrees of curvature is needed  coming off the slip switch then determine how many degrees of curvature you can remove from the curved switch if needed. Ross switches lend themselves readily to serious surgery

Mark, that is just my way of developing job security.