Alex, I am working on finding gears. No real luck at the three main suppliers, PIC design, WM Berg or Stock Drive Parts. I have found one that might work for the smaller 13 tooth gear but no match for the 19 tooth. I plan to check out the RC shops. I have a set of gears from Lima I will use to match up. I doubt there will be any exact replacements but at least hope to find match gear diameters and pitches. Then machine to fit. Not interested in paying 85 bucks each to have them custom cut. 

As for the U joint I am using one from Stock Drive parts but also have a pair of metal ones from eBay. Search on 4mm U joints and you will see them. Just use a piece of 4 mm rod to join them. I am busy now but can email more info later.

 More info here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...l-nyc-niagara-owners

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...40#41553382150830740

Pete

Alex,

Is that mine or Jeff's unit? Both of us blew the gearing pull lite consists. Great .pictures

Wow, that is ugly. Maybe I should hand over my other unit and have you do a rebuild before it breaks. Plastic - can't believe Lionel used without a major life cycle test - but plastic all to save a few bucks.

Hopefully, we can get it back on the tracks.

Alex,

I just ordered a few of the universal joints. Not sure when they will arrive, however, once I get them, I will give you them as I am going to ask you do upgrade my second unit once this get back on the rails.

I fixed one of these with the gears from Lima. I tried to buy better gears from North West Short Line, filled out the form for a quote but never got a reply. 

I ordered the Universal Stainless Steel RC Joint coupling 4mm

Thanks guys for all the great info, Kevin this is Jeff's engine. The 4mm drive shaft is a good idea but the bigger issue is the plastic gears in the gear box. Being they are plastic even if i replace them with new one's they can easily strip again. Like Chuck and Pete said above it's not easy to find Metal or brass gears. Pete is on the hunt for metal or brass gears, let's hope he can find them so we can repair these engine's the right way. Keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks,

Alex

I have four MTH Niagaras in my collection - glad I passed on the Lionel model.

Alex,

Read the OGR forum chain on these gears and drive shafts. I would suspect that my second engine will experience the same issue. Unfortunate that Lionel used plastic on a key piece. Crappy QA and I would be hard pressed to belief they did a life cycle test on the gear and shaft. Strong QA and testing would have identified this issue. Nylon gears could work if engineered properly. If I had to pay for them to be cut as suggested - I will just to have the engine functional. Would purchase a few sets just to have them and to reduce costs for all that need them

Hopefully Pete and Chuck are successful. 

Has anyone thought of contacting Sunset Limited to see if they have these items or something close?

Anyways, we will wait until you all get it settled.

Plastic does a real good job of disintegrating over time - especially when subjected to temperature variances.  

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

Mikado 4501 posted:

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

In this era of Lionel ordering their spare parts by buying extra complete units and then disassembling them stateside, what good will that do?  There quite likely won't be enough extras for people with the old engine to all buy a set.

-Dave

Also don't rule out a differently designed gearbox. A new gearbox may not use the idler gears, just the worm on a worm gear mounted on the axle. It may come to having to replace the complete gearbox if replacements cannot be had. I haven't ruled that out for my engine.

Pete

Mine has been self-benched due to a cherry switch failure.  Not thrilled to find out about a nylon drive gear problem that I didn't know I had to look forward to as well.

Kind of stupid meshing metal with nylon.  Had the same problem with my 71 Pontiac having nylon teeth on the timing gear.  Teeth started breaking, clogging the oil filter and pump, and loosening up the timing chain - made the car run funny.

It's the oil that causes the nylon to become brittle and fail.

Fred

I agree Fred about the oil. I plan to use teflon grease if I have to resort to using the nylon gears.

Pete

These CC-2 engines were supposed to be the latest and greatest from big-L at the time and we see the faults with them now!

Now the VisionLine is the latest and greatest,has anyone opened up a gearbox in one of them and see if Lionel is still using nylon gears? Even with Legacy electronics are they still not using the cherry switch or did they change to the hall effect sensor?  I do like Gunrunner Johns deal with his optical sensor and hope he gets it together and to market ,I just don't care for the reed switch and magnets,never had good luck with it.

Just my 2 cent's,Doug

Alex have you tried gears for radio control race cars? I found a brass drive shaft universal for my EM-1 this way.

Yes the plastic gears... heat, moisture and stress will disintegrate them all soon.  

J, The RC shops are my next stops. Its highly unlikely anyone makes a drop in replacement. I am hoping to find some gears with the correct profile that I can modify. If anyone else wants to help with the search the basic dimensions are as follows.

Small Gear, 13T, OD .410", width .132" with a .125" (1/8") center hole.

Large gear, 19T, OD .576", width .132" with a .125" center hole.

Number of teeth and OD are the most important. If its wider or has a smaller or no center hole then it could be machined to fit. Anodized aluminum or mild steel preferable, also delrin. Less desirable stainless steel or brass.

Don't ask me about pressure angles or mods. A real "gearhead" ME would help here.

Pete

This always upsets (well, you know...) me when it comes up. The Niagara is my second-favorite loco (guess #1) and I have a Lionel, an MTH and more-than-one Samhongsa (Williams) version. The Lionel is the best-looking, and has been a problem-child from day 1 - my gears are still fine, but the driveshaft split (fixed). 

I hope one of you guys comes up with a "kit" for this (gears and joint) - I'll buy at least one, maybe two. I would pay a decent price for it. (Wouldn't it be nice if someone - oh, say, Lionel, just to be crazy - did just that? Not for free; I'd pay.)

BTW, my MTH PS2 Niagara is an awful runner (surges) and, even at Factory Defaults, won't answer my DCS Remote Commander; it will get ERR one day. Lionel sound is better (this is not  new loco). MTH uses plastic in it's steam drive trains, also. Don't know about the gears, but a Premier Hudson that I ERR-installed this year has plastic driveshafts and u-joints. Saw them myself.

The Samhongsa brass Niagara (with ERR) seems to be a tank. Tracks better (sprung), too. A bit typically "brass-noisy".

What about trying this? They can fabricate anything you want. Just need a drawing.

http://www.emachineshop.com/

Alex, like many engines from that series, I would guess Lionel (that Lionel) was hoping people would put them under glass and not run them.  Lionel today would never put out something that poor.  Lionel today is the best ever.  I sold my Lionel Niagara and informed the buyer of what may happen.  I have worked on so many of those I can do them in my sleep.   I get the drive shaft from Lionel.

I would like to see that engine in Legacy with all the bells and whistles.  Ryan who is in charge of the high end locomotives would do it right.  He is aware of what was and he is the man that will bring us better locomotives.  

With all the problems that engine has, I have seen them drop big time in price.  They are very pretty but it is what it is.  At this time, I have my first MTH Niagara outfitted with a new PS-32 board.  It is great.  I will keep it until Lionel does one in Legacy.

Great topic guys.  My Niagara has been a shelf queen because of these problems.  Timko used to have all kinds of gears, wonder if he has worked anything out.

I email Frank, will let you know if he has a solution.

Hi Guys,

 Some very good information here, i will take all of this information and see what route to take to get this resolved and make this engine run right again.

Marty, I'm so hoping that Lionel comes out with a Legacy version of this engine, as I also sold my original Niagara. Keeping my fingers crossed

Thanks,

Alex

Some years ago Singer had the same problem-a plastic drive gear that was weakened by petroleum grease. In this case, someone made brass gears as a replacement.

Dumb question - has anyone asked Lima if the make the gear in brass or stainless steel? I would think that with all the traffic on the topic we might be able to get them to make a small lot. I would need at least two but would take 4 or 5. Why? I have 2 CCII Niagara's.

I have to believe we could get a minimum order. Heck, I am willing to pay up if enough folks want to.

K

I hope you guys can come up with something on the gears.  Much easier to replace than a gear box.

Protocraft sells gearboxes, as does NWSL (I believe).  As you know, not a simple swap from the Lionel one...

I just reworked a drive-it sucked.  Shimming of the drive to frame for proper fit, spacers (custom machined) for axle/drive wheel, and quartering (that really sucked).  There were other issues, but those come to my head quickly.  

Colorful language was said many times during the project....

NOT impossible-but not for the faint of heart to say the least.

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

It would help if you could make an estimate for the pitch diameter.  Gears are not specified by OD, but by pitch diameter.  Look it up on Internet.  It is likely that it is a metric gear even though it has a 0.125 bore.  The metric gears are specified by the tooth to tooth distance measured at the pitch diameter.

Once upon a time, in the far distant past, Stock Drive had pictures of gears in their catalogs.  You could take a gear and lay it on the picture and see if you could match the tooth profile.  You might ask SD if they have pictures?

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

I think it's 13. You can count the stubs on the gear box I fixed. I ended up using the Lima gears.

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

Like Chuck says its 13. I have a set of new ones I hope to match up with an actual replacement. Stock drive has a 13 tooth that might work but I haven't found a 19T there with a similar description. Before I start fabricating gears I will try and check all avenues for a ready made solution.

Pete

I think filing gears to mate will probably be an exercise in futility!  While I'm sure it can be done, that's bound to be a trial-and-error solution.  The best way would be brass gears, I doubt you'd want anything harder and brass should last a lot longer than plastic.

Just an update. I am fairly positive these gears are metric, .7 Modulus. The pitch diameter of the 13t gear is 9.1mm, the PD of the 19T gear is 13.3 mm. 

Stock Drive parts has these gears in acetal. I could not find any in metal that fit this description at SDP.

The search goes on. A trip to the hobby shop yielded a 13t 32 pitch gear which proved to be too big. Others like me new to this stuff, pitch is a term used in english measurement and modulus is used for metric gears. 

One other thing. These gears are clearly spur gears. The teeth are straight across. The 13t gear is used as a worm gear which compromises the contact area. Might be one of the reasons for the high failure rate.

Pete

Wow Alex,

Thanks for the heads up. It is really disappointing to learn that Lionel would allow a cheap gear system to be built into one of their top of the line Century Club engines. 

Question,

If I use a lubricant such as Red and Tacky in the lubricating holes under this engine will this cause deterioration of the non metal gears in this engine, or does applying lubricant in these areas only effect the axel bearings?

I have never opened up one of these engines, that is why I send them to you.

Merry Christmas and Best Wishes for a Happy New Yeay to you and the family.

Richard

Frank Timko indicated he might have some gears.  He said to send him the gears and he can look for a match.  My Niagara is not apart, so I don't have any around to send.  I suggest one of you who knows the specifics get in touch with him.  If he doesn't have them, he may be able to point you off to a source.

How about some of the idle gears from MTH diesels.  Not sure if it will fit the pin, but they are a stronger composite material and they have some small idle gears.  G

I wonder if with a complete sample if one of the post war parts vendors like Jeff Kane of The Train Tender would be able to identify it and get them.

Just a thought.

Mike

My order from Stock Drive Parts just arrived. I can tell you all for sure the Lionel gears are metric. Modulus .7, 3mm wide with a 3 mm diameter by 11 mm long center shaft. 13 and 19 teeth.

SDP only shows acetal AKA delrin gears in this size. Delrin is a much better material than nylon but I would preferred aluminum or mild steel. 

The SDP gears are not drop in replacements but will have to be reduced in width and sleeved.

I am only passing this information on. I have no interest in going into the gear replacement business.

Pete

Hello everyone 

I've decided to use the OEM parts from Lionel with the correct plastic safe grease. I'm sure the engines will perform very good this way. Once I install the parts and put the engines back together I will put them through a   Thorough test and post the results here. 

Thanks

Alex 

Interesting that Lio gave these parts up to Lima while retaining all the other parts for this engine.   Plastic is not necessarily bad in a drive shaft, but the material has to be correct.  Nylon is not a good choice for a gear though.  G

Ok here are some pics showing the parts I used. At the top are the stock Lionel gears available from North Lima. Below them are the gears made from the items below them including the SDP gears, brass tubing 3mm ID, 4mm OD and 3mm x 12mm 316 stainless dowel pins. The latter two items from McMaster Carr. The brass sleeve was required because the 19 tooth gear came with a 4 mm center hole. The sleeve was fastened to the gear but I think I will allow the shaft to float in the sleeve.

Part numbers for the SDP gears are:

A1M2MYZ07013

A1M2MYZ07019

The Lionel gears are 5 bucks each. The SDP gears are less than 2 bucks but require work and a few more parts.

Just as a reference point a forum member had these made in the same material but at 20 times the cost.

Looking at picture its difficult to tell the difference between the Lionel gears and the SDP gears. I hope to try and determine if the current Lionel gears are still made of Nylon or if they have switched to Delrin before installing either one in my engine.

Pete

Do we know what "plastic" these gears are. What is a good non metal gear material? One thing, I thought I remembered these gears definitely had a slant to them rather than being teeth parallel to the shaft.

cjack posted:

One thing, I thought I remembered these gears definitely had a slant to them rather than being teeth parallel to the shaft.

I would think that as well, given they're meshing with a worm gear.  There has to be a slant in there to get a proper mesh I would think.

You can see from my pics above there is no slant in the Lionel gears. I think that's part of the problem. On the other hand if the top was a worm gear it would have to be attached to a spur gear next to it, complicating the gearbox and likely making it too wide to fit in the frame.

Pete

They could have simply had a slant to both gears and solve the issue.

D500 posted:

BTW, my MTH PS2 Niagara is an awful runner (surges) and, even at Factory Defaults, won't answer my DCS Remote Commander

First inclination is that the tach tape (white & black barcode) on the flywheel is either dirty or torn/smudged, or the issue may be the tach reader.  Take the shell off and check both;  If the tach tape is dirty make sure to clean it.  If it's been compromised by being torn or frayed you can either home-brew a replacement or order a set relatively cheap from MTH.  With the tach reader, make sure it didn't work loose from its bracket and make sure the distance between the optical sensor and the tach tape should be between 0.5 mm – 1.5 mm with 0.75mm being optimum.

Other suggestion, although not related to the Niagra's performance, ditch the DCS Remote Commander and get the full-blown system; it's much better and who knows; the subtle grumblings you've posted in the past regarding DCS might diminish. 

Norton posted:

You can see from my pics above there is no slant in the Lionel gears. I think that's part of the problem. On the other hand if the top was a worm gear it would have to be attached to a spur gear next to it, complicating the gearbox and likely making it too wide to fit in the frame.

Pete

Which makes me wonder if the gears from Lima were different than these in the picture. It is not obvious in your Lionel gear picture, but it may not be the best angle to see it.

It was obvious now that I think of it, they were slanted and fit the worm gear slant. I remember wondering if it mattered if I turn the gear over. I think you can see it in the Lionel parts picture of the drive wheel as well. It's slight and you almost have to use your imagination to see it, but it's there I think.

Chuck, I have not taken my engine apart yet but I am sure the original gears are still in it. I am guessing the gears in the pic Alex posted are also original. Maybe Alex can show us those gears if he hasn't tossed them in the trash yet. They look straight in the picture though.

Here is a pic from Lionel. I would think this is from a new engine.

Pete

I would like to see Lionel take a picture broad side to the gear. The slant would be more obvious if it were slanted. I think when I filled out the form for NWSL gear company I wrote that the teeth slanted to the right. I remember that it seemed like there would be some other specs...not just right or left, but how much. Maybe there is some standard for gears that mate with a worm gear.

Lionel sure makes life interesting and consuming.

All good information and thoughts guys.   It is what it is.  NWSL may have a gear set for that locomotive.  Do not dwell much on the gear box as the drive shaft is a very bad situation also.  For all of us that buy Lionel steam today, feel lucky guys, the new  Lionel now has people who do things right.   They would never let something like the Niagara happen again.

They care and know what they are doing.

Marty you may be right about NWSL but its not in their catalog yet. A few weeks ago a forum member sent them a pair of North Lima Gears. They had to make custom copies because the had not made them yet. They charged $85 per gear to make them. Since they received fresh items from North Lima they will be straight cut. When I heard the price is when I started looking for an off the shelf alternative. The pair of gears I found at SDP were the only ones that had the same size and profile as the North Lima gears but came in Delrin which is superior to nylon at least if not metal. 

I posted the specs above to give others a chance to continue the search and maybe find similar gears in metal if they wish. If someone wants to have them custom cut in metal they could do that as well using those same specs. 

Pete

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

I just tuned in.  I am going to blow it, because I only read the first eight posts.

First comment - some plastic gears are better than others.  But brass is the world's worst material for gears, period.  You need a good grade of bronze.  Or Celcon Acetyl, aged and machined.

I am not well versed in Lionel, but from the looks of things, a nice NWSL Mod 0.6 non tower gearbox would cure your problems.  It is not trivial to install - you need to pull the geared driver, and maybe knurl it.

Joe Foehrkolb is an expert in these matters, and can probably fix it for a price.  Last time I checked, the gearbox alone was over fifty bucks, and the labor would be of the order of four hours or so.

I sincerely hope I have added something, and not repeated one of the posts I did not read.

GGG posted:

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

G, the SDP gear is Delrin, the generic name is acetal. As Bob2 noted Delrin is much preferred over nylon. I don't know how long it will last which is one reason I would rather not go into into the gear business but I intend to replace the gears in my engine to try and find out.

As for 3D printers I am not sure a printed gear would be stronger than one machined from solid material.

Replacing the gearbox has not been ruled out.

Pete

I don't have any of these engines but, you would think, that the current management would have done more to protect their name and reputation.  I guess it is to much to ask.

Alex,

This may be a longshot but try McMaster Carr. They are an industrial supplier that carries a wide variety of items. You should be able to find the catalog on the internet but if you cannot, I can give you one.

Alan Graziano

Hi everyone,

Here's a few photos of the large gear, this is as close as I can get before the picture goes out of focus. 

Also I ask please let's stay on the subject of the gear issue only. It's a  informative thread and I would like it to remain that way  

Thanks very much,

Alex 

Norton posted:

GGG posted:

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

G, the SDP gear is Delrin, the generic name is acetal. As Bob2 noted Delrin is much preferred over nylon. I don't know how long it will last which is one reason I would rather not go into into the gear business but I intend to replace the gears in my engine to try and find out.

As for 3D printers I am not sure a printed gear would be stronger than one machined from solid material.

Replacing the gearbox has not been ruled out.

 

Pete

Pete, They are making replacement parts on nuclear aircraft carriers with 3D printers.  Not everything, but a model train gear, with the right material.  Absolutely.

Delrin is good.  Hard to believe nylon was allowed on the first go.   G

Well that gear has a pitch, which would make sense.  Worm drive, and Axle gear.  So it would make sense the smaller gear had a pitch too.  G

Things are many times better today with Lionel products.   I never purchased any of those club situations.  I often wonder why that was.  I have worked on many of those club locomotives.  I recently dumped the Niagara I had and was very clear to the new owned what may happen.   I received it not running and was able to make the selling price good.  

People will still buy anything with the Lionel name on it.   The locomotives are good looking.  

I buy MTH and recent Lionel with modern Legacy.  Everyone is making great trains today.  We are living at a great time to be in the hobby.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS.

MARTY

Alex, The original gear looks like there is a brass insert around the shaft while the North Lima Gear does not. The shaft is embedded right in the plastic. I am wondering if North Lima is sourcing their replacements from somewhere else? I know when I tried to order gears 8 months ago they were out of stock. Now they are available again. Obviously not cannibalized from new engines which is typically Lionel's practice. Different construction might also indicate different material being used. I will try emailing once again and if no reply then maybe someone here at work can determine what the material of these new gears are.

New gear in upper right:

Original Lionel Gear:

Pete

Pete,

Yes i see exactly what you're talking about. We might be on to something here, reason why i say this is because the old gear is very hard to spin while holding the the shaft. There seems to be some sort of bind with these old gears, I think being the new Lima gears having the shaft embedded right into the gear just might be the solution.

I Also fully agree with Marty, Lionel is making many superior products and they are hitting home run after home run. My roster is filling up with a lot of new Legacy engines, and it will continue to do so.

Thanks,

Alex

The gears out of the gear box have a brass shim washer on both sides of the shaft. That comes off. There were roughly two of them on each side of the gear on the one I took apart.

I saved the shim washers and put them on the new gears from Lima.

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

Pete

Thank for doing all the leg work on this and sharing. I can't wait for Alex to get my one unit repaired. I am going to have him upgrade / replace out the old gears, etc. 

Thanks Alex to you and the OGR Form folks that know these gear boxes inside an out. Lots of leg work here from very knowledgeable folks. 

All have a safe, prosperous New Year fully of happiness and joy. 

Again, thanks for the information, this time on the Niagara CCll engines.  I have already replaced the u-joints in mine, interesting to find out about the problematic gearbox internals.  I had a similar problem with broken teeth on the drive gear for a Third rail SP cab forward from the late 90's.  They, Sunset Models, sent me brass gears to use in the replacement I did.  Makes me wonder why any manufacturer may continue the use of nylon for gears.  I know car manufacturers did so to reduce the noise in timing gears, changed quite a few due to this over the years.  But, I do not believe it would be a noise issue for gearboxes in any model steam engines from any manufacturer.

Again, many thanks for the information input..... Happy New Year to all.  God bless......

Jesse

Pete,

If you have a telephone number, I would gladly make a call to them. I would just need the specifics so I can hold an intelligent conversation with them. I am off on Monday and would gladly invest the time.

PSU1980 posted:

Pete,

If you have a telephone number, I would gladly make a call to them. I would just need the specifics so I can hold an intelligent conversation with them. I am off on Monday and would gladly invest the time.

 

The number for North Lima is  330-406-2811. The part numbers for the gears are 6208069506 (large gear) and 6208069507 (Small Gear). I have sent them a message asking what the material of these gears might be. Be aware its not easy to get a reply either by phone or email but you might get lucky.

I just had a conversation with one of the chemists here at work. He said he might be able to make a determination but will need a sample to be sure. A reply from North Lima one way or the other would simplify matters for sure.

Pete

Norton posted:

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

Maybe, but he shims are really thin and I thought they provide a bearing surface against the case to a good purpose. So the gears would not be more than say 40 thousands thicker and the gear might rub on the case instead of the washer shim.

They, Sunset Models, sent me brass gears to use in the replacement I did. Makes me wonder why any manufacturer may continue the use of nylon for gears. 

Yes - Sunset for a while was using brass axle gears.  Mort and I had a conversation about that, and they changed to bronze.  If you have a brass Sunset axle gear, it will last about an hour.

Yes, Nylon is a lousy gear material.  Even Bakelite is better.  The Celcon is called an "engineering plastic".  It must be aged before being cut, or it will split on the axle.  That may be why a printed gear won't work, although I am guessing that the printed parts have fairly low strength compared to cut parts, when done on a home printer.

The San Diego Museum has an ancient 4-4-0 with an early NWSL gearbox. We have gone through two sets of worm bearings (converted it to ball bearings) and four motors, and the original Celcon axle gear is still working!  I am not wild about plastics, but NWSL knew what they were doing.

All gears have "pitch" (which essentially describes the number of teeth on a gear -- "circular" pitch on a worm, i.e. distance between teeth measured along the length of worm itself; "diametral" or other nomenclature for spur of worm gears). The teeth of the worm gear should be "angled" with respect to the gear's axis so that they mesh correctly with the worm.  There is much more to it than this. You can read a technical discussion on the Boston Gear website if you Google the company (it's in an online publication entitled "gearology").

Oops, a typo: should have written "for spur or worm gears." It's good to know that Sunset has gone over to bronze worm gears.

Norton posted:

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

I think you want the shim as the bearing and wear surface.  Not the entire gear face.  G

Jesse, we all cursed them for the plastic timing (cam) gears.  I have seen Niagara guys do the same.

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today?  I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE   3751 Northern.   I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.

Marty,

I am up for anything that improves the performance. I really like this engine, have 2, so I would have them upgraded. Not being an engineer or fully understanding what it would take to do that - or even of possible - If it can be done, I am in as long as were talking a reasonable price.

I am in.

Duke,

Thanks for the effort. I am 100% sure that this team can figure it out

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

Pete,

I will try on Monday. Maybe a few folks calling will help get answers.

Will advise, thanks for the information.

GGG posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.

PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email. 

Pete

Just got word from NWSL that the gears I ordered were "too difficult" to make. Need to find another custom gear manufacturer that can make these gears as a direct/drop in replacement for my ailing Lionel Niagara. 

What about contacting a place that sells 3d printers? I was at a maker fair last year and there are user groups that cater to these kind of projects. Might be a good way to get a good reference.

Thanks for the advice. Speculation on my part, but I'm thinking the degree of difficulty went up exponentially in proportion to the of bad press displayed here in reaction to $85.00 per gear production cost, no matter how many were ordered. Such is the price of honesty.

What makes me wonder about Lionel is this, several of the engines they have released in the past have drivetrain problems. They do sell a replacement shaft for the EM1, that is staked on both ends for $20.00. To this date, they have made no effort to resolve the drivetrain issues in the 6-28069 Niagara. That being the case, why would anyone go out and spend thousands of dollars on a new engine, when they know Lionel gives no customer support?

Norton posted:

GGG posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.

PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email. 

 

Pete

Why would that matter if they are making them.  It is Module I believe.  PCD/N.  G

Duke, some of us have been trying to contact North Lima to see if they can tell us what their gears are made of. Maybe the more people that call or email might return a response. There is a chance the gears they are now selling might be made of Delrin which is what NWSL was going to make them out of. If so this would be good news for everyone.

Not sure why Dave R is referring to a 1986 article or why these would be any more difficult to make other than the fact he might have to invest in a new cutting tool for which there would little or no other application. 

Pete

I couldnt understand the relationship between a 1986 article and gears produced in 2000. Then again, I'm not a machinist. I am buying more gears from North Lima and sending them to someone else who can make them. When I got the first set, they appeared to be nylon. I will find a solution to this problem.

I have delrin gears. The material looks nearly identical to the North Lima gears.

If we don't hear back from North Lima I intend to have the analyzed but I will have to destroy one of the North Lima gears to do that. I am hoping to avoid that if possible.

Pete 

Pete

I ordered two sets of the gears from North Lima, so I will have a spare set. Feel free to contact me.

You know fellas, one thing that might make this engine unique is the fact that it was built by Aijin. I was told at one time this was the only piece built by them for Lionel. Perhaps they chose  a gearbox that isn't that commonly used. Maybe that's why NWSL is mentioning an old article and is reluctant to get involved. It sounds like this gearbox has been around a while.

I have one of these boxed up under the layout somewhere along with a full set of GGD cars for it. I may be in the market for a spare set of gears myself.

Perhaps I need to hear from someone that is running the  "new" Lionel gears. The original gears I have didnt last one hour.

NWSL changed ownership.  The original owner, Raoul Martin, was a machinist and very talented engineer.  I suspect they now make only those things Raoul had made setups and jigs for.

The USH gearbox had an idler gear like that.  Failed with regularity.  Raoul produced replacements out of Celcon.

When I re-gear, I only use the Mod 0.6 without idler gears.  If my Lionel FEF ever strips a gear, that is what will go in there.  I still haven't made the driver tires, so I haven't operated it yet.  I will yank a Japanese or Korean gearbox in a heartbeat and replace it with NWSL.  For me.  I work too slowly to do it professionally.

That being said, which plastic would be the best to use in producing these gears? Already been told that brass is a poor choice when used with a brass worm gear, the result would be brass dust. Going to order seven sets of gears, six other Niagara owners will benefit.

I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.

Marty,

Excellent news - Thanks for the effort

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.

I don't have a Niagara anymore, but I hope there is a solution out there for those that do!

Kudos Marty!

After some research on the subject: delrin, celcom, acetal, ramtal, duracon, kepital, and hostaform are all the same plastic. All of which can either be machined or formed. But much stronger than nylon. I have contacted a machinist who can produce the gears I need, plus six other sets. Hopefully I'm on to something.

Duke, look back on this thread for my posts. You can buy the correct profile delrin gears at Stock Drive Parts. The part numbers are listed. Your machinist can modify these easily to work. The cost will be a fraction of making gears from scratch.

Pete

And a brass gear will fail even if driven by Celcon.  Bronze is the best metal for worm gears, and steel is good for worms.  I believe Celcon is better than bronze, but not sure.

What is the gear ratio of this drive mechanism?  How many motor rotations to get one Driver wheel rotation?

Hey guys,

Looks like you've all done a great job of coming up with some possible solutions, albeit some being more painful than others! I have a suggestion for an even easier fix. Can someone with one of these FUBAR'd gearboxes, who has it extracted from the loco send me the complete gearbox (with the messed up gear). Marty Fitzhenry and I have exchanged some emails about this late last week, I advised Marty that I personally rebuilt/modified one of these Niagara's last year but for the life of me I cannot remember what parts I used from inventory. If someone is willing to throw me a gear box I am willing to do the reaearch to figure out what I used and advise how we can all fix this debacle (read into this statement "easily"). In addition, we have a new CNC lathe coming in March which "may" give us the ability to cut our own custom gears in house (it will be a nice addition to our 3D printer and CNC 3-axis mill!)

If someone is willing to send me their "extracted" gearbox please shoot me an email offline at mreagan@lionel.com

Thanks & Happy New Year,

Mike

Lionel

Very classy Mike, I hope you're able to solve this vexing issue.  I've only encountered it once and I just put the same old plastic gears back in.   New Delrin gears would be nice!

Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today? I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE 3751 Northern. I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.

Marty and Bob2:  As Norm mentioned, the 28069 Niagara is fairly unique in that it even HAS a separately removable gearbox.  This is a GOOD thing, because if the gearbox were built into the chassis (as on most 3-rail locos), it would be difficult or impossible to replace the gear and/or adjust the mesh.

In the case of the CCII Niagara, unfortunately the materials/design of the gearbox were substandard.  I would say replacing the whole gearbox with an NWSL 0.6 mod unit would be an effective repair.  YES at least one old gear would have to be removed, and the new worm wheel would have to be pressed onto the Lionel axle.  This is a common procedure for 2-railers who repower old mechanisms, difficult but a lot of folks have experience and can do it easily with the right tools.

Bob in the case of recently-produced Lionel Northerns such as the FEF or 3751, there is no easy way to replace the gears because the gearbox is cast into the chassis.  Installing a NWSL gearbox in one of these locos would require milling out a lot of the chassis, a real chore, if it's even possible.  

Bottom line, what we SHOULD be asking Lionel for, are replaceable gearboxes like the CCII Niagara has on ALL of their premium steam locos.  Just hopefully ones made with sturdier internals!  Good thread.

Ted, you seem to minimize the effort to replace the axle gear. How many people have the equipment to remove a wheel, press on a new gear then re quarter the driver? OTOH replacing the existing gears with ones of better material would be possible by anyone who can turn a screwdriver....................and some patience. Did I mention working on one of these engines require some patience?

Kudos to Mike for this offer. If I didn't already have a few sets of Delrin gears mine would be on its way already.

Pete

Interesting post about the replaceable gear box. I was thinking negative because of the 10 million screws that one removes to get to it. I guess there is always a silver lining.

I replaced the gears in one about a year ago. I got the gears from Lima.  I need to ask how it's doing. I'm somewhat afraid to ask since I thought I would never want to see it again. I never charge for anything so it keeps the number of requests down. The owner could not find the gear box cover and the front pilot (he started the disassembly at his home)...so it may not have any miles on it yet. It did run great though when I had it back together with what I had.

Really glad to see Mike R come in. That gives me more hope if I ever see this engine come back again.

Ted Sowirka posted:

Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today? I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE 3751 Northern. I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.

Marty and Bob2:  As Norm mentioned, the 28069 Niagara is fairly unique in that it even HAS a separately removable gearbox.  This is a GOOD thing, because if the gearbox were built into the chassis (as on most 3-rail locos), it would be difficult or impossible to replace the gear and/or adjust the mesh.

In the case of the CCII Niagara, unfortunately the materials/design of the gearbox were substandard.  I would say replacing the whole gearbox with an NWSL 0.6 mod unit would be an effective repair.  YES at least one old gear would have to be removed, and the new worm wheel would have to be pressed onto the Lionel axle.  This is a common procedure for 2-railers who repower old mechanisms, difficult but a lot of folks have experience and can do it easily with the right tools.

Bob in the case of recently-produced Lionel Northerns such as the FEF or 3751, there is no easy way to replace the gears because the gearbox is cast into the chassis.  Installing a NWSL gearbox in one of these locos would require milling out a lot of the chassis, a real chore, if it's even possible.  

Bottom line, what we SHOULD be asking Lionel for, are replaceable gearboxes like the CCII Niagara has on ALL of their premium steam locos.  Just hopefully ones made with sturdier internals!  Good thread.

Theres no epimdemic of failed gears on any other Lionel scale steamer. Every other Lionel scale steamer from 2000 to the present ( and prior as well) has steel gears that should outlast the owner of the loco provided they are greased.

Lionel would do better adjusting the tooling so that the boiler would mount on  the FEF/ATSF chassis and add legacy to a future re- release. At the same time addressing the driver pitting and tires falling off as well as the breaking driveshaft. All of which are standard failures exclusive to this loco, with the exception of the driveshaft issue that it shares with the EM1 of the same period.

Lionel had a reliable gearbox figured out before the niagara was made, and still uses it today, albiet with a secondary reduction gear recently added which was taken from K Line gearbox design.

Rick I'm sorry but I disagree... the first time one of your locos takes a dive from the table you'll wish the wheels, gears, axles, etc., could be replaced with the turn of a screwdriver.  A replaceable gearbox is always better.  

Historically Lionels have been reliable because they are geared tall and turn fairly slowly.   Before the advent of electronic speed control, many locos had unrealistically high top speeds, and sacrificed a lot of slow-speed performance in trade.  Most O-gaugers simply didn't know better.  All high-end brass models, American Models S-gauge and HO scale steamers are made with replaceable gearboxes, wheels, and axles.  There are plenty of bronze and steel KTM-style gearboxes which have given reliable service since the 1950s and 60s; this design was also used on later-production Williams Crown Edition and Weaver brass locos, with good results.   

Gears DO wear from heavy use, lack of lubrication, and especially improper mesh.  When the gearbox/motor mount is built into the frame there's no good way to adjust the mesh.  We hope it's right from the factory; if it's wrong you'll find out in a couple of years ;-)  Then it will be difficult to replace the gear on the driving axle, and unless it's exactly the same size and lead angle as the original, you've got yourself a $1500 shelf queen.  I know that Mike R. and company are trying very hard, but compared to the Postwar era, modern production runs are short and parts availability can get spotty.  Being able to replace individual parts or the whole gearbox is a much better option than trying to source an exact replacement for the original.  It also makes it easier to lower the gear ratio, substitute a steel-tired wheelset (two wheels and bearings already mounted on the axle) for one with rubber tires, correct wheels that are out of gauge, or convert to 2-rail.

Please don't get me started on the K-Line design.  The secondary reduction gear isn't a bad thing, but the motor belongs in the firebox where it can be as large as possible.  The worm gear should NOT be affixed to the motor shaft, for the same reasons as cited above:  when the motor or worm wears out, you will have to source an exact replacement motor with the worm already installed.  Also this precludes use of ball thrust bearings, so the thrust load is borne by the motor bearings--not good for longevity!

When MTH started manufacturing HO scale steam locos, they didn't dare try to pitch their 3-rail "toy train" mechanical designs to that crowd.  Especially with today's prices, it's time for O gaugers to expect more.  Lionel has used separate gearboxes in a few of their high-end locos (JLC series Y-6b, Vision Line CC2, etc.)  I'm glad you're content with the current design and there are plenty available for sale.  But I would like to see Lionel AND MTH adopt a separate gearbox and two-piece chassis in all of their newly-tooled offerings.

Fascinating.

First, really nice that Mike Reagan is going to fix this the easy way.

Second, it is true that it takes some skill to remove a worm gear from a locomotive driver axle and get a different one back on.  Everybody knows that Joe Foehrkolb does this kind of work?  I do it too, but only for myself.

 I never charge for anything so it keeps the number of requests down. The owner could not find the gear box. . . .

Man - I charge fifty bucks an hour including coffee breaks.  That keeps the number of requests down, but unfortunately not zero.  I am boosting that to seventy five, just to make sure!

Final comment: some gearboxes really do last forever.  The Lionel 700e comes to mind, as well as the center driver Scale Craft gears.  But yes - tinplate O Scale is moving so close to 2-rail that it is inevitable - - you will have sprung, removable drivers, clevised side rods, and gearboxes, and probably soon - just like your 2-rail friends have had since 1938.

Thanks to all of you for the wealth of information you have provided here regarding the Lionel Niagara. I have this engine, and the only  work that has been done on it was when Alex performed one of his up grades on it a coupe of years ago.

Does anyone know the failure rate for the gears? My Niagara does not see a lot of running, but I guess it is over 10 years old by now and the gears could fail. Do I need to consider a preemptive replacement of the gears? I really like this engine and I want to keep it running.  

Thanks,

Richard

Hi Richard 

Some advice I can pass along is the two Niagara's I have here now were pulling a large amount of freight cars. I was told it was over 30 cars, which puts a lot of stress on old gears. It would be a good idea to open your gear box check inside, if the teeth on the gears are all okay then I would give a good cleaning to all the gears then apply a plastic / nylon safe grease. 

Alex

Pete,

I left a message today. Hoping to hear back.

Kevin

Mike,

I have two Niagara's One Alex has, the other I have at home. Both need upgrades / repairs. The one Alex has is the worst of the two. The one I have here at home is doing the exact same thing prior to the gears going south. In forward and reverse the unit jumps / hiccups before it runs smooth. Like is is missing a step, almost like when your learning how to drive a stick shift, you miss a few gears before you get it right = no pun intended

Be more than happy to send both if it helps. I will call and leave you a message

Lauren Morris has my information or feel free to email me. Everything is in my profile.

Kevin 

I spoke to Mike this morning and I am sending him a Niagara.

Kevin

Ok Guys, I hope this is good news. I just got the results back from one of my chemistry colleagues and it appears the gears currently being sold by North Lima are in fact Delrin. Using material from one of the SDP gears I purchased which was listed as Acetal (Delrin) we got a spectrum. When we ran a spectrum on material from the North Lima gear it was nearly identical. More importantly both match the spectrum listed in the chemistry literature for Delrin. For any other chemists/scientists out there it was run on a Shimadzu Prestige 21 FTIR. I have attached some pdfs of the results. Until I extract the original gears and test them in the same way we won't know for sure if they are delrin or nylon. All along most of us have assumed they were nylon. So for those who plan to replace your gears with delrin, look no further than North Lima. For those who hope Mike R comes up with a better alternative, you can sit tight.

Pete

Thanks Alex,

I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.

I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.

Richard

Richard Gonzales posted:

Thanks Alex,

I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.

I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.

Richard

Take pictures with your phone as you go.

PSU1980 posted:

Mike,

I have two Niagara's One Alex has, the other I have at home. Both need upgrades / repairs. The one Alex has is the worst of the two. The one I have here at home is doing the exact same thing prior to the gears going south. In forward and reverse the unit jumps / hiccups before it runs smooth. Like is is missing a step, almost like when your learning how to drive a stick shift, you miss a few gears before you get it right = no pun intended

Be more than happy to send both if it helps. I will call and leave you a message

Lauren Morris has my information or feel free to email me. Everything is in my profile.

Kevin 

I will share my experience as mine also would hesitate before moving as listed above. My plastic drive shaft stripped and I had to go in for surgery. What I found during the repair effort was the cam that drives the cherry switch was rubbing hard up against the switch assembly. A simple bend of the mounting arm removed the jump at start up. I inspected the gears which looked okay, drilled and pinned the center shaft to the 'U' joint at both ends and put her back together.  I've put about 25 hours at moderate to heavy loads since with no problems, '(knocking on wood). I did buy a set of stainless 4mm 'U' joints and replacement gears to have on hand.

Richard Gonzales posted:

Thanks Alex,

I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.

I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.

Richard

Hi Richard,

If you want me to take your engine apart, i will gladly do so, or like Chuck said above take tons of pictures because a lot of the engine has to come apart to get to the gearbox. I can also guide you if you like.

Thanks,

Alex

Sounds like this Niagra thing was bought at Dowsers on DeKalb ave and is a hunk a junk.  It doesn't matter if you dipped it in Texas

My Lionel Niagara's gears have yet to fail, but, while used, it is low mileage. Also, I do not pull long trains with any of my locos - my layout is only 18X12X10Xsomething. So, 8 - 10 cars for any loco.

If there is a "kit" that shows up from Lionel, I will buy a couple, sales made, no doubt whatsoever. For the future. 

The Lionel Niagara I have had apart (my driveshaft cracked; I could fix) a few times. It is not particularly hard, as I recall, so long as you locate the 2 screw near the smoke deflectors that are not shown in the owner's manual. Much cursing because of that.

Many screws, I believe - almost as bad as de-screwing a blasted diesel. But not hard.

Hello gang,

I purchased an extra set of North Lima gears to do some experimenting. I did a complete and thorough cleaning of the gearbox, repacked it with plastic / nylon safe grease and put the engine back together. Put the engine on the track with 4  21 inch passenger cars and it ran fine. I added an extra 18 inch passenger car every few trips around my layout, when i got to 10 passenger cars it was still pulling fine. I then started adding scale freight cars, once i got to 5 freight cars with the 10 passenger cars the small gear failed. I would like to hear your thoughts about this experiment.

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Alex M posted:

 I would like to hear your thoughts about this experiment.

You're a masochist?

Alex M posted:

 

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Looking at your photo Alex, maybe its simply the lack of plastic behind the teeth of the smaller gear compromising the strength.

That, coupled with the load of the loco on one end and the force of the motor on the other shears off the teeth.

RickO posted:

Alex M posted:

 

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Looking at your photo Alex, maybe its simply the lack of plastic behind the teeth of the smaller gear compromising the strength.

That, coupled with the load of the loco on one end and the force of the motor on the other shears off the teeth.

I agree, there is just no meat behind the teeth on the smaller gear. The weakest link always fails...

How well does the gear mesh with the worm?  They appear to mesh good between the 2 plastic ones.

Doug

trnluvr posted:

How well does the gear mesh with the worm?  They appear to mesh good between the 2 plastic ones.

Doug

Thats part of the problem. The gears used here are spur gears not proper worm gears. The contact point is minimal because of that. Its not a simple matter of replacing the small gear with a worm gear as the other two gears in the drive train would also have to be changed.

Alex thanks for giving it this stress test. I had planned to do the same. What it might indicate is that the original gears may also be delrin and simply not designed to handle the load.

Lets hope Mike can find gears that fit made of different material. It may come to having the small gear custom made. There are a number of companies that will do that though I have no idea of the cost. Are there 100 people that might be interested? 

Pete

You need a hobbyist, not a gear manufacturer.  Last I checked, Boston gears were $30 each, and those were off the shelf.  This thing sounds like a candidate for a redesign, top to bottom.  We had a guy here who could make bronze gears from scratch - the museum K-Line Berk failed and he made a brand new axle gear.  I cannot do that with my machinery and skill level.

My friends always try to explain to me why idler gears are so great, but so far it has not sunk in.  I won't use them.

Looking at the gear that failed. You can see there is not enough material between the inner diameter of the gear and the teeth that are cut along the outer perimeter. The Design of the idler gear is flawed. A metal replacement gear will have to be located here.

I was just doing a search for gears and found this guy in Florida. GearsMade.com .  Check out his website,sounds like he could be a step in the right direction.

Doug

Hi Guys,

Has anybody had the chance to carefully look closely (using a magnifier) at the worm gear?  To check for any rough spots or pitting of the area of that gear that comes in contact with the small plastic  gear that is failing.  If the surface of that worm is not finished smooth, any roughness will add to the wearing of the plastic gear.  And what is being using to completely clean the metal worm gear for grease and debris so that one can inspect it close up?  Alcohol?  Lacquer thinner?

Steve

I thought the teeth were breaking off.  That is typical of a nylon spur gear, not of a rough worm.

One of the theories is that the softer gear (usually the worm gear) will get hard stuff imbedded, and that will wear the harder gear (usually a steel worm).

Nylon is for stockings, not gears.

Wait - are you guys kidding me?  There are two idler gears in there?  Redesign.

I guess the worm could cut into the plastic teeth...like a score line and encourage them to break. But mine were definitely broken over. Didn't look worn, just broken.

bob2 posted:

I thought the teeth were breaking off.  That is typical of a nylon spur gear, not of a rough worm.

One of the theories is that the softer gear (usually the worm gear) will get hard stuff imbedded, and that will wear the harder gear (usually a steel worm).

Nylon is for stockings, not gears.

Bob, you have to read all the posts. The gear in the picture about ten posts up is delrin. It still failed in only a few minutes of use.

Pete

Pete,

I did not hear back from them today, I will call again tomorrow. Then, if I don't hear back I will being the robo calling. More later,

Kevin

Kevin, don't bother. We determined at work today the new replacement gears are delrin. Thats the good news. The bad news is they still break. Apparently its not a problem with the material as much as a poor design. The gear simply can't take the load of more than a few cars.

Pete

Just to clarify, one of the engines Alex has, the consist 30 cars.  All Lionel from the Milk Cars Set issued with the Niagara. Two sets were put together then I added milk cars that I had picked up over time. No caboose. Second, for those familiar with our layout, the entire consist made it around our red line only one time before the gears got chewed up.

The second engine Alex has was only pulling about 15 car but they were a mix of milk cars, boxcars and tankers. These cars were from MTH, Atlas and Lionel. Different sizes and weights. Regardless, the same experience.

Not sure if the length was an issue but maybe the weight was. Since I am not an engineer not sure if that really matters.

That idle gear is transferring too much force for it's size.  Additionally didn't some one say it had straight cut teeth?  If so that is also contributing to the failure, as the contact area with an angled worm adds additional friction and stress will be greater.  G

Pete,

No problem, the dogs are in the house. Second, that might explain why the gears got chewed up. 30 milk cars, not sure of the weight - make sense. On Jeff's - his consist was probably a lot heavier than mine.

Next steps - Mike R. will get my second CCII Niagara by Thursday. After a great conversation, he is definitely looking to see what can be done. I offered to have the guts of the other unit shipped to him, not needed. Overall, good conversations. I am sure once he has time to look at it we will hear back from him.

This forum is outstanding.

Kevin

GGG, thanks for the education

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

bob2 posted:

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

Bob, is the MWSL Mod .6 an entire gear box?  Do you have a link to it?

bob2 posted:

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

I think you hit the nail on the head here Bob. Question is if you can package the new gear box with minor modification onto the chassis and still align with the motor properly.

If that is the Niagara, the answer is yes.  Joe Foehrkolb is the guy to go to for the heavy lifting.

NWSL stands for Northwest Short Line.  The Mod 0.6 is a series of gearbox/size products.  I personally use the #653-6, which is a case, a ball bearing worm, a worm gear sized for a 1/4"  diameter axle (which I knurl), two axle bearings, and four screws, all in a small, expensive package.  If you can get the axle diameter, I can recommend a part number for the Niagara.

If you choose the non- idler gearbox (my preference), the motor will need to be angled downward.  And if there is an optical pickoff on the flywheel, the gear ratios will have to be accounted for, or you will lose the four chuffs.

Do not let the billions of products confuse you - just get that axle size, and I will tell you the part number.

http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html

bob2 posted:

Do not let the billions of products confuse you - just get that axle size, and I will tell you the part number.

http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html

Bob thanks.  I do know what NWSL is, but I could not find gear boxes on the web.  Did find them in the catalog though.  $50 doesn't sound too expensive.  Do you have a picture of one, and what the mounting method is?  G

Hi Alex and all,

Usually if there's a gear failure there's always a ton of variables that can go wrong but when you said the only one you have replaced is the "Small" ones, that tells me because of their smaller diameter size they have more stress, have to turn 2- 3 or 4 times the revolutions as the others and just have more pressure, wear and tear on them. Simply put they are the "weak link" in the chain and are the ones that'll go first. Sure you can or Reagan can put a better composite gear in there to replace it but then... what's the next thing to give in the link. But it's obvious that a product improvement is needed here. Looks to me better composite for the smaller gear will help eliminate a lot of woes. This is a great thread Alex and I've really enjoyed your endeavor in getting this thing worked out. You're a true enthusiast in the hobby! 

I just sent a email out to new gears asking if he could make these out of steel. I sent him some of the pics here and gave him Pete's measurements for a reference. When I hear back from him I will post here.

Doug

Given the steel worm gear, I'd opt for brass for the gears I think.  Steel on steel needs precise fitting as a rule, where the brass will "wear in" if it's not perfect.

Both Bob2 and NWSL said that brass would wear very fast. Forum member Duke.. was told  that by NWSL when he contacted them. Interesting that NWSL was going to make them out of delrin. Good thing for Duke they backed out of the project. Mild steel might be OK, stainless not so much if the worm is also stainless. My first choice would be hard anodized aluminum, second choice reinforced phenolic. Two of my motorcycles run aluminum sprockets and they wear as well as steel.

Also interesting that Bob2 and NWSL use mod .6 gears. These would actually have smaller teeth than the mod .7 gears used in the Niagara.

Pete

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the steel worm gear, I'd opt for brass for the gears I think.  Steel on steel needs precise fitting as a rule, where the brass will "wear in" if it's not perfect.

I like the quotes in your post. NWSL's motto seems to be that gears don't wear in, they wear out.

Hi all, I sent a pic of the gearbox half that Alex posted,He may have ideas on how to solve this problem also?

John,I think brass would wear out just as fast,Maybe bronze gears??

As we have found out the driveshaft was the first weakpoint and changed that out to a heavier one and now it's the gearbox and down to the gears. I really hope Mike has a fix for this problem that can hold up to pulling long heavy consists.

I have no problems with mine at the moment but when I do tear it apart I want to fix all the problems at that time and be done with it!!!

Doug

One more time - this stuff is well known.  You use dissimilar metals for gears such as we use - steel for the worm, and either a good engineering plastic or bronze for the worm gears.  Brass turns into a pile of shavings at about the 30 minute point.  Ask Sunset.

Aluminum is not a good gear material.  Neither is Nylon.

Bob thanks. . Do you have a picture of one, and what the mounting method is? G

Yes, but my photos no longer work here. If you find me on another 2-rail forum, I will be happy to post.  The mounting method is simple - the axle gear gets pressed on the axle with a bronze bearing on each side.  The bearings fit into a cavity in the gearbox, which attaches with two screws.  The worm shaft must be long enough to reduce torque wrap-up.  A carefully soldered K&S tube will give the proper length.

U- joints do not work unless the gearbox is stabilized.  I use Toyota # O hose, and it can handle all torque requirements at a distance of maybe 2 1/2" behind the rear worm bearing.

The toughest part of this is the re-quartering of the driver after the gear is installed.

Re-quartering is an operation requiring a jig and some experience.  You will have that problem no matter who supplies the gearbox, unless the solution is designed around the existing axle gear - not a likely scenario for 100 models.

This thing goes on and on with no end. Get a better gear box and the next weak link goes. I think the thing is a turkey-just a poorly engineered job. Might not be repairable.

Actually, I did mean to say bronze, I realize brass isn't the right stuff, slip of the tongue (finger?).  However, I see a lot of motors with SS worms and what I presume to be bronze gears, and I don't hear about them having issues.  With a bronze gear, you wouldn't need the different material for the hub, so the gear teeth would be a lot stronger.

That is one of the best combinations.  An untrained eye cannot tell the difference between brass and bronze, but when it comes to wear - the Sunset brass axle gears lasted about 30 minutes at the museum, then we replaced them with bronze.  Sunset had a special run of worm gears made.  This was in the early 1990s.

MTH Diesels have very small worm gears made of bronze, driven by a steel worm shrunk on to the motor shaft.  We get three years with that tiny gear, of daily all-day operation.  Find out what alloy MTH uses, and get your idler gears made out of that?

Thanks for all the new information guys! I just received two sets of gears from North Lima for my Niagara. Since they are delrin, no need to spend the money to have some made. Perhaps the steel gear idea would be the best solution. The gentleman at emachineshop stated he could make the gears out of most any material I wanted. Perhaps that's the direction I will head. It does make me wonder how the worm gear will hold up. Just got my EM1 back from repairs/improvements. Improved driveshaft (thanks to Lionel), upgraded smoke unit that chuffs  and fills the room with smoke.

Duke, let me suggest holding off until Mike Reagan gets back to us. Maybe if he does not have a better alternative then I suspect many of us would be interested in something made of better material. That way you could reduce or eliminate your cost for these.

Pete

Not a problem waiting on Mike for a solution. I'm a patient man, been waiting on the reissue of the 180 watt power bricks, and the 096 curve fastrack. Hopefully I'll live long enough to see all these things come true.

I sent the Niagara to Mike R. last Monday, Lionel got it on Thursday. When we spoke he said he would get on it - no time frame. Go back to his post as he re built one last year. I think we let Mike and Lionel take a good look at the Engine. The one I sent was relatively new, little to no use. Alex has my other one. If we need to send that one for comparison, I sure Mike will ask. I do know, he is / was swamped on a few things so .........

I am going to wait a reasonable amount of time. I also must consider the length of time this engine has been out, and the fact that Lionel has FINALLY decided to help with THEIR problem child. Not holding my breath on this one.

I've heard nothing back from my earlier post, not even to say not interested.  So it's up to Mike at this point to work his magic.

Doug

I was thinking of reach out to him on a progress but my bet is the team is all over doing shows and getting product our the door.

So the best suggestion for the gears so far is bronze. But no one has any idea as to which alloy. Trying to be patient, but I've worked for big corporations before and know the drill. This engine has been out for sixteen years. These problems are not new. We are close to a solution. Please give me the proper alloy, and I will have the gears made.

We just pulled the alloy out of a 1929 Machinery Handbook.  Not sure where that handbook went.  This stuff is well known by gear manufacturers.

Thinking that the bronze aka gunmetal would be the alloy that includes lead, zinc, and tin. Considering the addition of lead would give the metal more of a "break in" capability than the alloys of copper without lead, Going with that, tired of waiting on Lionel to come up with an answer nearly two decades after the release of their problem child.