Non-Derailing Failing on Ross O-31 switch

That symptom is classic for the non-derail function for the through being shorted.  Are you sure none of the wires underneath the layout are touching?  Check from the rail all the way to the DZ-1000.

Do you have a meter?  With the power off, measure the resistance between the two inner rails on the switch, and between each inner rail and the rail bridged by the insulating pin.

You should measure an infinite (or at least very high) resistance in each case. If not, your wiring is shorted somewhere.

It only takes a tiny sliver of metal to close the gap. Clean the area under the insulated pins. I’ve had a piece of steel as small as one used on steel wool causing this.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Do you have a meter?  With the power off, measure the resistance between the two inner rails on the switch, and between each inner rail and the rail bridged by the insulating pin.

You should measure an infinite (or at least very high) resistance in each case. If not, your wiring is shorted somewhere.

Not trying to be obtuse here, but with all power disconnected, I have checked and rechecked, the frog rails, with my multimeter, to each other, and to their connecting rails, and I get 0L and 0.L, at all points, depending on the range setting used.

I have also checked the wiring from the switch to the near end terminal block, then to the far end terminal block at the power source, and all seems to be in order there as well.

I am really stumped on this one. 

I take it "OL" is "open loop" on your meter...

Have you tried

• Disconnecting the pushbutton controller?
• Swapping out the DZ1000 with another one?

@Professor Chaos posted:

I take it "OL" is "open loop" on your meter...

Have you tried

• Disconnecting the pushbutton controller?
• Swapping out the DZ1000 with another one?

Yes, OL is Open Loop
I have not tried disconnecting the pushbutton, and I don't have an extra DZ-1000 to try.

I remember RWL getting bit by shorted frog rails before, I'm sure he's checked that several times. Sure sounds like something is shorting the straight through control lines. Does non-derail work with just the diverging tracks? I.e., leave the straights disconnected.

Should those two facing switches work in tandem?

Can you swap the DZ with a known to be good unit? Not a new unit but one you know  works?  If that doesn't provide results then swap the turnout with a known good unit and put that first unit on the test bench.

Jim K

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I remember RWL getting bit by shorted frog rails before, I'm sure he's checked that several times. Sure sounds like something is shorting the straight through control lines. Does non-derail work with just the diverging tracks? I.e., leave the straights disconnected.

Should those two facing switches work in tandem?

Yes, I have checked, and double checked that the Frog Rails are indeed isolated, at both the frog, and at the connecting rails.

See pics in my original post above.

Is it correct that the DZ1000 works properly using the DZ1002 push buttons with the two derailing wires not connected ? If the answer is "no" it doesn't work correctly with the DZ1002.  My next question would be what material is the DZ1002 mounted on ?

  The DZ1002 LED sockets protrude beyond  the rear DZ1002 housing.  As a result the sockets contact the mounting surface.  If the mounting surface is conductive, the shorted contacts cause the switch to do all kinds of crazy stuff depending on which contacts are shorted.

Did you see my question? If you only wire the diverging tracks for non-derail, does that work?

You have two switches facing each other, there should be two rail cuts in the straight between them to isolate a small section. I only see one in the picture.

@shorling posted:

Is it correct that the DZ1000 works properly using the DZ1002 push buttons with the two derailing wires not connected ? If the answer is "no" it doesn't work correctly with the DZ1002.  My next question would be what material is the DZ1002 mounted on ?

  The DZ1002 LED sockets protrude beyond  the rear DZ1002 housing.  As a result the sockets contact the mounting surface.  If the mounting surface is conductive, the shorted contacts cause the switch to do all kinds of crazy stuff depending on which contacts are shorted.

Yes the DZ1002 controller does work with the DZ1000 machine.

The controllers are mounted on a painted wood surface.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

Did you see my question? If you only wire the diverging tracks for non-derail, does that work?

I got it working so I did not try that.

However, I don't know how it would work, without the other wires connected, to get power to the switch.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

You have two switches facing each other, there should be two rail cuts in the straight between them to isolate a small section. I only see one in the picture.

That cut, at the arrow separates the two frog rails on the two switches, and they work as they should.
The switch on the left switch operates non-derailing when traveling from the right to the left.
The switch on the right operates non-derailing when traveling from the left to the right.

@CAPPilot posted:

That symptom is classic for the non-derail function for the through being shorted.  Are you sure none of the wires underneath the layout are touching?  Check from the rail all the way to the DZ-1000.

Now this is so strange.
As I mentioned in my original post here in this thread, I had this switch working for just a bit, in the middle of all my attempts, prior to posting here, but then it went back to its old shenanigans again.

Well, I just went down and reconnected the second non-derailing wire back into the terminal block, and it all works as it should again. I turned power off and back on several times, and all works as it should

The switch operates back and forth properly, and resets for non-derailing in either direction, just as it should as well.

I will just have to see if it continues to function properly for the long haul.

Thanks, as always, for all of the suggestions,

RWL:

I was following along but was completely stumped so offered no comment. Only thing I could think of was that both ground wires were accidentally connected to one DZ1000 post (shorting them together????). Would the point rails just keep switching to the same side or would they flutter back and forth???

Joe

@Joe Fauty posted:

RWL:

I was following along but was completely stumped so offered no comment. Only thing I could think of was that both ground wires were accidentally connected to one DZ1000 post (shorting them together????). Would the point rails just keep switching to the same side or would they flutter back and forth???

Joe

With both frog rails connected for non-derailing, when trying to operate the switch, the point rails would flutter back and forth, and when letting off of the actuator, would default to straight thru.

I could have one or the other of the frog rails connected, but not both.

Then I disconnected the physical switch from the track, then reinstalled it, and all worked fine for just a bit, then went back to the previous dysfunctional state.

I disconnected the straight thru frog rail, and left it that way for a few days, then reconnected it, and now it functions just as it should.