One TPC 400 & 2 Power Districts

You can't run command engines in command mode without a command base. You can run them in conventional mode on the powermasters without a command base. On the ZW-C you need a command base operate it with the cab1/cab2. Once you add the command base either, Legacy or TMCC, all options become available. Command engines in command mode or conventional engines all run with the cab1 and command base or the cab2 and Legacy base.

Ron

I did not say you could. I asked if you can run a command engine with the ZW-C in CONVENTIONAL mode with the Cab-1 like you can with the Powermaster. I said that I thought you could not. That since you need the base to run the ZW-C remotely, the command engine would see the base. FMH

The answer is no, because the ZW-C is receiving it's commands from the command base, you have that correct.

thanks everyone for all the feedback and good info.

This just may be my last unanswered question on the ZW-C.

 

Per Manual:

If a layout contains a Command Base and the ZW Controller is programmed with a

track/train (TR) ID# of 1-6, the ZW Controller will be in TrainMaster Command Control mode when it is powered up.

 

 Note: If you assign ID# 0, the ZW Controller will return to manual mode. Use the handles and levers on the ZW Controller—not your CAB-1 Remote Controller—to operate

the controller. The ZW Controller will, however, respond to the HALT command

from the CAB-1 Remote Controller.

 

Now the note above makes the earlier explanation about need for the base command being present to use the halt command with the Cab-1 makes sense.

 

But this also indicates that the ZW-C is now in MANUAL mode (conventional)??? with the Base attached with no Cab-1 functionality except HALT.

 

Now for the question:

 What happens if you put a command engine on the track and throttle up in MANUAL Mode?

 

 a. Just sits there. maybe lights and sounds?

 b. just sits there  in nuetral until you hit direction button?

 c. just sits there until you reprogram the track ID to #1 and pick up the Cab-1?

 d. can not think of any other options off hand?

 

Thanks again

FMH

As long as the Command Base is connected to the ZW-C, you can NOT run a TMCC/Legacy engine in conventional mode. Assigning the ZW-C to ID #0 only changes the way the ZW operates, not the engine. The engine always searches for a command signal, so if the Command Base is connected, the engine won't do anything until you give it a "command". Using the ZW-C in Command Mode, requires the use of the Command/Legacy base in order to control it. That means your TMCC/Legacy engines will only operate in TMCC/Legacy mode.

 

I have tested this extensively with the layout we are currently building with a ZW-C and the Legacy Base and Cab 2. I don't understand why you would even want to run a TMCC/Legacy in Conventional mode since you have the Command Base connected to control the ZW-C. Having the ZW-C programmed as Tracks 1-4, you have the ability to run each handle in its own manner, as long your tracks loops are isolated from each other. IE: all 4 handles run conventional, all 4 handles run command, 2 command and 2 conventional, 1 and 3, 3 and 1 etc etc etc.

So what does track ID# 0 do? It thought the jumper gave you independent control or one handle. And not sure if Why is applicable to the discussion? Some people do not prefer to run in command mode all the time or anytime. I can easily unplug my Base and with my Powermasters then run both types quite easily remotely. I am just trying determine the design and function parameters. Since the manual is not all that clear, I am seeking the help of experienced members. Since you have done such extensive testing, why don't you attempt to answer my questions. I would be grateful. Thanks. FMH

As the manual states, ID "0" puts the ZW-C back into manual mode, has nothing to do with the engine.

 

That jumper your referring to gives you control of all 4 handles with 1 address. So your ID #1 would control A,B,C, and D handles all at the same time, not independently. The factory setting of that jumper gives you independent control of all 4 handles.

 

As others have already stated, the ZW-C is essentially just 4 PowerMasters. So you answered your own question again. How do you switch to Conventional with your Powermasters? You unplug the Command Base. The ZW-C acts the same way if you want to run Command engines in a Conventional manner. Unplug the Command Base.

 

Its very simple..... Command engines will not run in conventional mode if your Command Base is connected. Those engines are what dictates what you have to do in order to run conventional or command. Plug in the Command Base, or unplug it!

 

 

 

I know it puts it into manual mode. What is manual mode? Conventional running with a TMCC HALT button.? And we have all established that it is not just like a Powermaster. Stand alone it will not talk to a Cab-1. And with or without a base, It will not run a command engine in conventional mode remotely. Or maybe I am just misunderstanding you

Well, if you have a command base active, you won't be running a TMCC engine with a PowerMaster conventionally either.  If it sees the signal, it's in TMCC mode.

 

When you put the ZW-C into manual mode, that means the TMCC base will no longer talk to it, it's strictly controlled by the manual levers.  However, the TMCC signal is still everywhere on the outside rails.

John, I agree with everything but the no longer talk to it part. It seems that it still will see a Halt Signal from the Cab-1 via the base.

Again Thanks to all for your input. much appreciated.

 

I now believe I  have a better understanding of why conventional remote operaters would have been hesitent to dump Powermasters in favor of this product. 

 

I think  Lionel should have kept the Base out of the equation. Just used it to signal the engines and kept the 27Mhz interface with the Cab-1.

 

But that is just my opinion. It still has that nice retro look. And the Bell buttons.

 

 

A modern ZW is definitely not the same as 4 Powermasters:

1. The short circuit/overload strategy is completely different.

2. The ZW uses the track signal, not the 27MHz signal.

3. The ZW permits local control via the handles.

 

The ZW does use the same 2-FET scheme for controlling the output voltage.

 

This discussion would be easier to follow if we used the following terms:

Manual conventional control - move the handles on a transformer

Remote controlled conventional - twist the knob on a remote to increase the track voltage

Command control - constant track voltage

 

(Mixed mode (transitional contol in the manuals), i.e. running conventional and command locomotives on the same loop, is also possible.)

You may be right on that, I disconnected mine so I can't test that right now.

Hi Dale, As I understand mixed ( transitional) can also be done remotely for both engine types with cab-1, base and Power master. Or half remote with a Cab-1, base, for the command engine and any variable voltage transformer for the conventional engine.

And I guess remotely or half remote with the ZW-C on channel A and D

They only way to run all options ( I know nothing about Cab-2) that I can see is to use a Cab-1, a ZW-C outputting to 4 Power masters, and a Command base on a switched circuit ( or unplug as required) But you really do not need the ZW-C to do it. 4 bricks, 4 power masters, 4 Power station controllers, and a base.

You must also factor in the number of voltage steps for the various devices.  The Powermaster is the "dumbest" with only 32 voltage steps.  When you consider that a postwar engine typically takes 6-8 volts to operate the E-unit and get rolling, there aren't a great number of steps in the "sweet spot" of operation.

 

I run 3 Powermasters and a TPC, all powered by 2 PW ZWs.  I also have bypass switches on all of the controllers so that I can run pure conventional from the ZW handles.

Dale If you put the Powermaster in command mode, Is that equivalent to using the bypass switch? It will use a little energy but gives you the panic button. Not purely conventional But primarily manual conventional. FMH

There is a slight voltage drop that is bypassed by my switch.  What good is the panic button if I am not using the handheld and my Base is off?

 

Please understand that my layout is on the floor of my low-roof attic - 56" of headroom.  I can't walk around tables.  Most of my engines are postwar, and I am too cheap to upgrade engines that aren't worth what an upgrade would cost.  I can control 60 switches, 20 accessories and 8 blocks with the remote, but I prefer the ZW handles and the switches on the control panel.  I guess I am just too "Old School".

Dale, I was actually kind of joking about the panic button. Because that is the added functionality that the ZW-C gave you in Manual conventional mode if you bought the base and no Remote Conventional if you did not. The Powermaster had both features. Since I am also cheap, I was wondering if the extra voltage gain (not always used in conventional) was worth adding / buying the 4 bypass switches. I know we are talking pennies. Lionel used to recommend using the Power master in conventional mode when running Command engines to reduce the track voltage a few volts to extend the lamp life in older cars. ( I guess they needed some reason for Command operators to buy them) Since the Command/conventional switch is already there, why not use it in Command mode to bypass the Remote when running Manual Conventional. I do agree that I would rather take my chances pulling back on the throttles than fumbling for the handheld. I used to be strictly levers but since I can walk around, I am starting to experiment more with Remote Conventional and Command. I would not find your layout a problem because I find I am usually on my knees enjoying eye level views instead of the birds eye that I used to be confined too. And I do like my ZW-C and my Powermasters. Just differently.

In Command mode, you would think that the Powermaster is straightthrough, but remember that there must be enough input voltage to drive the circuitry inside the Powermaster.  If you have modern engines with can motors that can crawl at low speeds, you might not have enough voltage going in to properly run the circuitry.  I should test that.  The PW ZW does have the initial jump in voltage to toggle an E-unit, so maybe that is enough to jump start the Powermaster.

Hi Dale,

If you do not mind an additional inquiry.

 

When you say that the powermaster is the "dumbest device" with 32 speed steps. Do you mean that is the finite amount it has over the available voltage range?

Compressing and expanding.

 

 Even with the Momemtum settings on H?

 

Can you fine tune the "sweetspot" by nudging the lever once you get in the range?

 

How is that different or "dumber" than the ZW-C/ Base combo on Low Momentum

 

Momentum Setting    SpeedSteps     CAB-1 Remote Controller Revolutions Clockwise

 

Low          32          3/4

Medium         56          1 1/2

High          96          2 1/2

 

32

56

96

 

Table 1. Momentum settings and CAB-1 Remote  Controller

 

This is from the ZW-C manual.

 

Is it the Powermaster or the Cab-1 hand-held that is the limiting device?

Thanks

FMH

The Powermaster "brain" has a timing resolution of 32 equal time steps in each positive or negative hump of a sinewave.  Since the sinewave is constantly changing in amplitude, the "power" of the various slices also varies.  At the beginning and end of the hump, the area (constant width times variable height) is small and produces little change.  At the peak of the hump the area of each time increment is largest.

 

And to make matters worse, you really don't get all 32 steps to use.  At the very beginning of the hump, the first slice of each half-cycle is reserved for creating a DC voltage to operate a whistle/horn or bell.  Also step zero is OFF.  That gives only 30 steps of power.

 

This timing resolution is fixed within the Powermaster's microcontroller

 

See my article at http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=180 for a complete description and oscilloscope photographs of these waveforms.

Hi Dale, I am not an EE but I think I get the concepts. Thank you for the link. very informative and interesting reading and thorough. Does the stall setting reduce available steps or just shift the range to the left of the zero point? And if I understand correctly the momentum setting does not increase the steps but merely increases the reaction time. Have you done a similar analysis of the ZW-C? FMH

The Stall just sets the starting point on the right of the waveform, and the Max Speed sets the highest point to the left.  The increment sizes remain the same.

 

I have a ZW-C here for repair, and I will take a look at its waveform.