Planning out a ceiling track layout

Thanks to whoever moved my thread to the proper place!  I'm still trying to learn the layout here, lol.

Think big but move in small steps.  Depending on what type of trains you want to run will determine power requirements.  Let's say you want to run conventional only.  Then your choices are simple and less expensive.  As for power, I would try to get a hold of a Lionel post-war ZW.  They are all over Ebay and may also be found at train meets.  But be aware that post-war transformers should be serviced by the seller before you buy one.  I've had good luck with this fellow on Ebay, 

http://stores.ebay.com/IFIXZWS?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

On the question of track.  I like traditional tubular track.  It's easy to work with.  Can be soldered to.  Cuts easily.  From what I have read is actually quieter than Fastback.  

Scenery on a shelf layout can be made quite interesting.  There are numerous vendors selling backdrops.  Pictures of buildings and also mountainous areas can be had.  Most are inexpensive if you do a bit of searching.  The sheets can be glued to things like masonite.

On the question of the shelf itself.  I would paint it to match your walls.  It will be less intrusive.  what you use to build it is up to you, but keep it simple.  

We are here to help with any and all your questions.  

A ceiling layout is a complicated build due to the track roadbed hangers. A shelf layout is much easier to build and wire. You can build a shelf layout at a lower height depending on the number of doors and windows that have to be negotiated. Allowing for access, curtains and blinds and such can be a pain.

Which type are you considering?

Dan Padova posted:

Think big but move in small steps.  Depending on what type of trains you want to run will determine power requirements.  Let's say you want to run conventional only.  Then your choices are simple and less expensive.  As for power, I would try to get a hold of a Lionel post-war ZW.  They are all over Ebay and may also be found at train meets.  But be aware that post-war transformers should be serviced by the seller before you buy one.  I've had good luck with this fellow on Ebay, 

http://stores.ebay.com/IFIXZWS?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

On the question of track.  I like traditional tubular track.  It's easy to work with.  Can be soldered to.  Cuts easily.  From what I have read is actually quieter than Fastback.  

Scenery on a shelf layout can be made quite interesting.  There are numerous vendors selling backdrops.  Pictures of buildings and also mountainous areas can be had.  Most are inexpensive if you do a bit of searching.  The sheets can be glued to things like masonite.

On the question of the shelf itself.  I would paint it to match your walls.  It will be less intrusive.  what you use to build it is up to you, but keep it simple.  

We are here to help with any and all your questions.  

Thanks for the referral.  I've been trying to find a post-war ZW on eBay but most have been out of my budget that the wife has set, lol.  I currently have equal amounts of Fastrack and traditional Lionel O gauge track, and yes the Fastrack is louder.  I planned on constructing the shelf out of 3/4" plywood and painting it to match the walls.  I'm sure I'll be back to ask a TON of questions and opinions! LOL

Sheep Dog,

   In reality today it is not inexpensive to build a good shelf type ceiling layout.  I just completed one and if you use good strong brackets, each Bracket will cost between $4.80 - $7.70 a peace after Tax, depending on the engineering you plan on doing.  Good shelving is not cheap these days either.  I was lucky and had a great deal of white shelving purchased before I started my shelf-ceiling type construction.   Still cost me almost $100.00 for the additional synthetic shelving I needed to complete the layout.  I also purchased a 4x8 sheet of Grade A finished 3/4 Ply to be used for my Corner Triangle Pieces thru out the new Train Room/Bar, figure another $50.00 there also.

I used FasTrack on my 26x18  DCS/Legacy Shelf Ceiling Layout, it runs smooth as glass on the 1st and 2nd generation FasTrack.  I engineered for only one Track, lots of guys like 2.

Engineer a good place for your power station, use high quality 14 Gauge Stranded wire if you plan to run DCS.  Because I had the wire, I used it for the Legacy wiring also, not required however.

I also recommend the big multi plug Bars from Harbor Freight, well built and they work great with Legacy and DCS both. $23.95 a piece I bought 4 of them, for both the over head, Bar and Floor Area layouts, due to the Ceramic Houses my wife likes to see on the layouts.

For me this has been a long time in the planning, I use Z4K, ZW and KW Transformers on my power station that powers the entire Train Room/Bar layouts.  If you have a large room layout on multi-levels, always over power your layout.

I have engineered 3 different circuits into my Train Room/Bar, with multiple plugs on each wall, with 20 Amp Breakers.  You might consider something similar depending on the actual size of your Train Room.

Good luck with your Shelf Ceiling layout Construction.

I agree with Dan, Engineer big and take small well planned steps while building, measure twice cut once.

PCRR/Dave

Construction continues on the PCRR Train Room/Bar.

Moonman posted:

A ceiling layout is a complicated build due to the track roadbed hangers. A shelf layout is much easier to build and wire. You can build a shelf layout at a lower height depending on the number of doors and windows that have to be negotiated. Allowing for access, curtains and blinds and such can be a pain.

Which type are you considering?

Shelf layout is what I have planned.  It will be located in the basement in an area away from the windows, BUT I will have a section that I'll have to deal with that has to go away from the wall.  I have a door that swings outward, but I don't know if I can raise the shelf up enough to clear the door.  If I can't then I'll have to suspend the shelf from the ceiling for about 5ft.  I also have a door that swings away from the layout.  I still have to read up on how to make a section that's removable in the case that something needs to be moved out of that room.

Oh, I plan to make the shelf big enough to hold 2 sets of track so I can add on to it later.

Sheep Dog posted:

Moonman posted:

A ceiling layout is a complicated build due to the track roadbed hangers. A shelf layout is much easier to build and wire. You can build a shelf layout at a lower height depending on the number of doors and windows that have to be negotiated. Allowing for access, curtains and blinds and such can be a pain.

Which type are you considering?

Shelf layout is what I have planned.  It will be located in the basement in an area away from the windows, BUT I will have a section that I'll have to deal with that has to go away from the wall.  I have a door that swings outward, but I don't know if I can raise the shelf up enough to clear the door.  If I can't then I'll have to suspend the shelf from the ceiling for about 5ft.  I also have a door that swings away from the layout.  I still have to read up on how to make a section that's removable in the case that something needs to be moved out of that room.

Oh, I plan to make the shelf big enough to hold 2 sets of track so I can add on to it later.

1" x 10" or 12" will work and leave a little room for some scenic items. Supports on every stud will be fine - actually more than needed. Could go every other.

Shelf brackets can be standard metal from Home Depot or whatever you like. I like the shelf layout where the brackets where installed with the wall side toward the ceiling. Still strong enough to hold the big trains. he put some crown molding under the shelf. Like the example above.

You can use all thread to hang a support from the ceiling.  A strip of wood with a nut on top and bottom. Look at some of the hanger hardware for metal emt conduit in Home Depot. You can paint it black or sky color-whatever makes it disappear the best. That won't be too bad for the short sections.

This is one of the coolest ceiling layouts that I have seen - acrylic rod and copper fittings - probably 1/2". There's a second video on YouTube about this layout.

Sheep Dog, welcome to the forums and the hobby!  I was in your shoes about a year ago and I must say, you've come to the right place.  Here's some pointers for building your first shelf-train. 

1) Try to use MDH instead of plywood.  Home Depot has it and it won't warp like plywood.  You can buy it pre-cut in 6", 8" or 12" widths up to 16 feet long.  Also comes in 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch or 1 inch thick.  I used 1" thick, probably a bit too much.  The 3/4 would be my choice if I build another shelf-train. 

2) Try to go with 072 curves if you can manage it.  This will allow you to run all the really big steamers if you ever decide to and will reduce the amount of derailments. 

3) The Fastrack or Atlas O track would be ideal.  If for some reason you decide against this, tubular works good too.  If you already have some Fastrack, I'd stick with that.  It's relatively cheap (especially if you buy it used) and is very abundant.  The Atlas O track is much quieter than than the rest, but honestly, it's still pretty loud.  After all, these are big trains and are going to generate some noise.  Comes with the territory. 

Here's a pic of my shelf-train and a link to a video.  If you have any questions, don't feel shy.  Everybody here is more than willing to help out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKtws1fAuw

Ps.. I built my shelf 12 inches below the ceiling.  I'd recommend putting them as low as possible if you can so they're easier to reach.  Also, I'm very limited on what types of buildings I can put up there because most of the buildings I like are taller than 12 inches.  

A bit more info for you to ponder.  First, you want to spend as little as possible on building the shelf.  Not that I am suggesting you skimp on quality of either the material itself or the workmanship.  

TRAINGUYMCGEE's suggestion of using MDF is a sound one.  3/4" x 12" MDF shelves are available at Home Depot.  They have one rounded edge, which would be the front edge of your shelf.  

Shelf brackets need not be expensive either.  I have alot of MDF shelving in my shop.  It's loaded with tools.  Some very heavy.  I use those inexpensive self brackets from Home Depot.  If you space them at 16" centers, meaning on each wall stud, they will be more than enough to support your layout.  Check out their site.  They are $1.98 each.  This one is 10" x 12".  Available in white, grey or black.  Most likely, you have 1/2" drywall on wood studs.  You can use 2" screws which will be plenty long to hold these brackets.  If you cannot locate the studs, toggle bolts will also work nicely and hold a tremendous amount of weight.  I would say 1/8" screws with toggle wings to match.

I am a retired carpenter.  I've spent more than forty-five years in the construction business.  Most of it in historical restoration.  When I wasn't doing HR, I was doing renovation in general.  I've done beau-coup fit-outs of laboratories and offices.  They both had plenty of shelving and wall hung units of one sort or another.  So I speak from personal experience.  By the way, if you live anywhere near Southeastern Pa. I am at your service.  

I made my own brackets using 1x3 and 1x4 dimensional birch lumber and Baltic birch for the sub roadbed.

This area passes in front of ceiling high closet doors.

The longer ones were made for the corners. 042 tubular, Woodland Scenic foam underlayment glued down with the tubular track glued to the foam. Vey very quiet.

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

Here's a pic of my shelf-train and a link to a video.  If you have any questions, don't feel shy.  Everybody here is more than willing to help out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpKtws1fAuw

Ps.. I built my shelf 12 inches below the ceiling.  I'd recommend putting them as low as possible if you can so they're easier to reach.  Also, I'm very limited on what types of buildings I can put up there because most of the buildings I like are taller than 12 inches.  

 

I've seen your video on YouTube!  Very nice handy work I might say.  I use to install car stereos and MDF was all we used, so I don't know why that slipped my mind.  I thought about using metal brackets and inverting them, but I've also been looking at these.....

http://www.rockler.com/blind-shelf-supports

They can hold 50# over a span up to 34", but if I go with MDF then that will most likely take up at about 1/3 of the 50#.  The only drawback is they're $10 per pair and I'd need a lot of pairs, lol.  

As far as 12" from ceiling, I can't make that happen, at least on 1 long "wall".  This plan is for the TV area of my basement and the 1 "wall" I'm speaking of is my duct work that I drywalled around.  If memory serves me correct it's 9" from the ceiling.  I can alway try and grade to and from that wall but I don't know if it would look right.

Sheep Dog,

    You are going to need 12" min to run your O Gauge Trains correctly, further you will need room to screw your track down to your shelving.  I purchased the Mini Skill Screw Driver/Drill to Screw my FasTrack to the shelving, and the 12" does not leave much room as you accomplish the work.  

Further depending on what Brackets you decide on, you can purchase them at Home Depot.  The 8x10's are about $4.80 each after Tax.  The real nice 8x12" thicker Brackets will cost you over $7.50 a piece after Tax.  If you are a Veteran they give you a 10% cost break to match Lowes Veterans pricing.  As I indicated in a prior post, none of this is cheap any more.

If you live in Dan's area you might want to take him up on his offer to help out, especially if you are not an engineer or professional tradesman, I engineered and constructed my shelf ceiling layout all by myself, I can tell you it's a lot of work no matter what materials and planning you do.  Further when finished you want it to look professional and blend into you your home properly.

Happy building!

PCRR/Dave

Good luck with the project sheep dog and don't hesitate to jump on here and ask for help. 

Keep it easy, SheepDog. Enough challenges will arise on their own.

I don't like MDF because every screw hole should be predrilled. That's why they nail and glue speaker cabinets. Right? The home store will rip the plywood for you, leaving only cross-cuts for length.

I appreciate all of the advice and possible issues with a project like this.  While I'm not a tradesman or professional, I can hold my own when it comes to constructing things.  Last year I tackled a total kitchen gut and remodel on our home.  The only thing I didn't do was install my lower cabinets.  I had a buddy put them in after the granite guy told me to make sure everything was perfect because if it wasn't then the weight of the granite could crack my porcelain tiles or worse, buckle cabinets.

Anyway, you guys have given me a lot to process and plan for.  For that I truly appreciate it.  With that said, keep the ideas coming!

Moonman posted:

I don't like MDF because every screw hole should be predrilled. That's why they nail and glue speaker cabinets. Right? The home store will rip the plywood for you, leaving only cross-cuts for length.

Good point!  If I do choose to use MDF then I will use coarse thread screws with wood glue in the holes to lock them in (they'll still come out if I need them to though).  That's what I use to use when constructing speaker boxes as nails would eventually wiggle loose from the subwoofers.

I made mine from the MDF 12" shelving from Home Depot or Lowe's, I don't remember which.  I used metal brackets to match.  My ceiling is only 7' 3" high.  I put the shelves at the top of the doors, so the tops of my shelves are only 7" from the ceiling.  Not good at all.  It was a literal pain in the neck.  I used brackets like the ones shown to match the walls, except one wall is brick.  I used anchors coupled to all-thread in the joists.  That worked okay too.  I still need to do some work on the corners.